Non Prophet
Christian missionaries contend that the Jewish people should accept Jesus as a true prophet.
We can’t.
Because he wasn’t.
How can you be so sure?
Simple – The same system that tells me that Isaiah, Jeremiah and Ezekiel were true prophets, tells me that Jesus was not.
Well, how do you know that the prophets of the Jewish Scriptures were authentic?
I will tell you in a minute – but before I answer your question, I have a question of my own for you. Did you ever think about this? Did you ever wonder how it is that we know that the prophets of the Jewish Scriptures are for real and that the writings of the Jewish Scripture were authored with Divine inspiration?
Did you have a clear and straightforward understanding of the method that we should use to sort out the true prophets from the frauds – and then did you carefully and patiently apply this test to Jesus – and only after he passed with flying colors – then, and only then, did you accept him? Or did you perhaps accept Jesus before you ever thought about this question?
So how do we know that the Jewish Scriptures are authentic?
We must first recognize that God appointed a witness nation (Isaiah 43:10, 12; 44:8). God had demonstrated to the Jewish people in a clear and unequivocal way – that He is the Lord and that there is no other (Deuteronomy 4:15, 35).
We are confident that Israel is His witness nation because no national entity claims any experience that could be compared to ours (Deuteronomy 4:32-35).
When the claimant to prophecy presented their claim – the Jewish people asked themselves: is this man or woman speaking in the name of the God we know from Sinai? (Deuteronomy 18:20) Is he or she encouraging worship of an entity other than the God we know from Sinai? (Deuteronomy 13:3)
Jesus did not pass this test.
There is another test that God provided to sort the true prophet from the fraud. If a prediction of the prophet fails to materialize, then we can be sure that the prophet is a fraud (Deuteronomy 18:22). This one is tricky though. You see, the followers of false prophets were never short of excuses when the predictions of their “prophet” failed to materialize. How could we know if our bias, for or against, the claimant to prophecy is confusing us or not?
In these situations we are directed to turn to the judges of Israel(Deuteronomy 17:8, 9 – 2Chronicles 19:11).
We know their verdict.
If you do not accept the authority of Israel and her judges to pass judgment on Jesus, please be consistent, and reject her Bible as well.
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Even an acknowledged prophet is automatically proven false if he claims to have been sent by God advocate any form of idolatry (Rambam, Hil. Yesodei HaTorah 9:3), or if he claims that any precept of the Torah should be abrogated permanently (Sanhedrin 89a).
And the authors of the NT prove both themselves and Jesus to be false prophets: “He (Jesus) has abolished the law with its commandments and ordinances, (Eph 2:15, Col. 2:14-15, 20-22, Gal. 4:8-11, 2 Pe 2:21-22).
“In that He says, “A new covenant,” He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.” The author of the Book of Hebrews among others (Hebrews 7:18-22, 9:15, Luke 22:20, 2 Corinthians Ch. 3, 5:17, Philippians 3:2-9) pronounces that the covenant God made with the Jewish people has expired.
I could be wrong, but I would not be at all surprised if these Greek-type theological touches were added later, and that the original Yeshua never espoused any such concepts. See Matthew 5:17-18 “Think not that I have come to abolish the law and the prophets; I have come not to abolish them but to fulfil them. For truly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the law until all is accomplished…”
@Sylvia “Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill/complete GAMAR.” (Matthew 5:17-18). GAMAR; also means to teach/preach.
Paul, the apostle to the gentiles, teaches that belief in the doctrine of faith in JC, established and confirmed the Torah (Romans 3:19-31). ”For in his sight no one alive will be considered righteous on the ground of legalistic observance of Torah commands, because what Torah really does is show people how sinful they are” (3:20) .
”Therefore, there is no longer any condemnation awaiting those who are in union with the Messiah Yeshua. Why? Because the Torah of the Spirit (The Gospel of the grace of Christ), which produces this life in union with Messiah Yeshua, has set me free from the “Torah” of sin and death…” (Romans 8:1-4).
But contrary to the teachings of the Church, the Torah confirms that ”it shall be righteousness unto us, if we observe to do all this commandment before the LORD our God, as He hath commanded us’ (Deut. 6:24-25, Isaiah 32:17-18, 48:17-19).
The Torah presents seven laws for non-Jews to observe, named the “Seven Laws of Noah.” Jews are responsible for fulfilling the 613 mitzvot in the Torah. And if all peoples kept these laws, then we would indeed live in a very different world… Genesis 9:8-17 is the everlasting covenant between God and all of humanity (see Isaiah 24:1-6).
@Sylvia: “The Torah, the Prophets and the Writings:
The difference between them, is very simply this: Why do we have the three lined up like this, and why is it in the order that it this?
In the Torah, we have the law; basically it is an instruction manual; how to live your lives, these are the laws.
Basically, the Prophets, if you read it, are punctuate and highlight the problems, where everything goes wrong, that’s we find consistently throughout in the Prophets. What mistakes you can possibly make. In fact you will see this in the book of Joshua, Judges…
The Prophets, basically what they say is how you can fall away from a relationship with God, this is how you can mess up.
The Writings, therefore, the third part is, THIS IS HOW YOU GET BACK! Do you understand that structure? So, it is very simple.
Incidentally, the Church doesn’t like that. They don’t want the Writings, they don’t want the Book of Psalms, they don’t want the Book of Song of Songs, they don’t want the Proverbs, they don’t want the words of Lamentations—THEY DON’T WANT THAT TO BE THE ANSWER, so what the Church has; it has reversed it.
What Augustin did, he shove the Writings before most of the Prophets. So that therefore, when you read a Christian Bible, what happens?
When you are reading a Christian Bible, the Christian Bible ends with Malachi. Well, he is the last prophet, but that’s not the reason of the structure.
The Church understands there is a problem but they don’t want the solution, in the book of Psalms. They don’t want the solution to be the book of Ecclesiastes, they don’t want the book of Proverbs to be the solution. They want Christianity, the Book of Matthew to be the answer. So they shove the Writings before the Prophets.”
The Writings: Psalms, Proverbs, Job, The Song of Songs, Ruth, Lamentations, Ecclesiastes, Esther, Daniel, Ezra-Nehemiah, Chronicles.
From: Explore Fascinating Prophetic Dimensions Hidden in the Book of Chronicles By Rabbi Tovia Singer: http://www.outreachjudaism.org/
Predictions which fails to materialize: The Rapture Contra The Ingathering: The Rapture is the moment when Christian believers think they will be taken up to heaven to be with the Lord. “Then there will be two men in a field one will be taken and the other left behind. There will be two women grinding flour at the mill one will be taken and the other left behind” (Matthew 24:31,40-41, Luke 17:34-37). This has nothing to do with a Rapture, but has everything to do with the Ingathering of the Lost Tribes to Israel.
This rewriting of Jeremiah 3:14-15 has had a remarkable impact on Christians throughout the world, who unhesitatingly embraced and have waited for the Rapture with a constant anticipation, that it would take place in their lifetime (1 Thess. 4:16-17).
The false story of Matthew having Jesus returning (24:27-31) on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory comes from a mixture of scriptures from the Jewish Bible and is put together into a subtle story which has no root in reality. (See Deut. 30:4-5, Isaiah 27:12-13, Ezekiel 37:9 and Deut. 4:27-30.
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The bottom line is that Jesus never accomplished what the messiah was supposed to: world peace, the worship of G-d by all, and all Jews returning to Israel.
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World peace… you want a literal from a non literal book? Literally the world is peaceful. There is no vagabond holding mankind to it anymore. Ezekiel tells you who that whole house of Israel is in chapter 37 (dry bones). Jesus did this in Mathew 27 (gathered ). Now you can fantasize about shallow thoughts or you can see the deeper picture. Jesus did not come to take away free will He came to release you from your vagabond. He fully filled law and prophesy.
He fully filled law and prophesy? Really? “Now if you say to yourself, “How will we know the word that the Lord did not speak?” If the prophet speaks in the name of the Lord, and the thing does not occur and does not come about, that is the thing the Lord did not speak. The prophet has spoken it wantonly; you shall not be afraid of him” (Deuteronomy 18:21-22).
If an acknowledged prophet says that a certain event will come to pass, but which nevertheless doesn’t come to pass, then it is proven that he is a false prophet and a deceiver.
There is a “prophecy” concerning the time which Jesus says he will spend in the tomb: Matthew 12:38-40 ” At this some of the Torah-teachers said, “Rabbi, we want to see a miraculous sign from you.”
He replied, “A wicked and adulterous generation asks for a sign? No! None will be given to it but the sign of the prophet Yonah. For just as Yonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the sea-monster, so will the Son of Man be three days and three nights in the depths of the earth.”
How many days and how many nights was Jesus in the tomb? Matthew 28:1 ”Now after the Sabbath, as the first day of the week BEGAN TO DAWN, Mary Magdalene and the other Mary came to see the tomb.” 3 days, 2 nights.
Mark 16:2 “Very EARLY IN THE MORNING, on the first day of the week, they came to the tomb WHEN THE SUN HAD RISEN.” 3 days, 2 nights.
Luke 24:1 “Now on the first day of the week, very early in the morning, they, and certain other women with them, came to the tomb bringing the spices which they had prepared.” 3 days, 2 nights.
John 20:1 “Now the first day of the week Mary Magdalene went to the tomb EARLY, WHILE IT WAS STILL DARK, and saw that the stone had been taken away from the tomb.” 2 days, 2 nights.
Easter Nuts:
http://www.torahblogg.net/45249033
Hello Kristine
This is a simple one to work out. Of course you have to look at it from a Jewish frame of reference, not gentile.
The book of Esther should help you here, ch 4 v16, ch 5 v1.
Also the main point Jesus is referring to is the resurrection. There are three proof teachings that Jesus was making here, all in regard to His Missiahship, and making Israel come to a decision in regard to His claims.
1. Lazurus.
2. Himself.
3. The two witnesses mentioned in the book of Revelation. (Jews in the tribulation).
2 have past, one is still future.
Thanks.
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FALSE PRIESTS NOT FALSE PROPHET.
Perhaps you should know better.
The pseudo-priesthood acting at the time of Messiah were self appointed and operating in a temple built by the nominal Jew, Herod (a Roman pleaser) which was cleaned out for selling on the sabbath and then destroyed for killing the prophets and especially the one who prophesied its destruction.
Furthermore the heavenly Father warns that those who bear false witness shall receive the same punishment. The false priests tried to destroy the temple of Y’shua (which is the body of Ya) and thus their temple (stone house of Ya) was destoyed in return-strike one in fulfillement of the law and prophecy by a true prophet and by Torah
15 ¶One witness shall not rise up against a man for any iniquity, or for any sin, in any sin that he sinneth: at the mouth of two witnesses, or at the mouth of three witnesses, shall the matter be established. 16 ¶If a false witness rise up against any man to testify against him that which is wrong 17 Then both the men, between whom the controversy is, shall stand before Yah, before the priests and the judges, which shall be in those days; 18 And the judges shall make diligent inquisition: and, behold, IF THE WITNESS BE A FALSE WITNESS, AND HATH TESTIFIED FALSELY AGAINST HIS BROTHER; 19 THEN SHALL YE DO UNTO HIM, AS HE HAD THOUGHT TO HAVE DONE UNTO HIS BROTHER: SO SHALT THOU PUT THE EVIL AWAY FROM AMONG YOU. 20 AND THOSE WHICH REMAIN SHALL HEAR, AND FEAR, AND SHALL HENCEFORTH COMMIT NO MORE ANY SUCH EVIL AMONG YOU. 21 AND THINE EYE SHALL NOT PITY; BUT LIFE SHALL GO FOR LIFE, EYE FOR EYE, TOOTH FOR TOOTH, HAND FOR HAND, FOOT FOR FOOT.
Strike two was the fulfillment of an end to sacrifices at the date set out by prophet Daniel by Messiah the true prophet.
Daniel 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
You refer to the prophets who were true such as Isaiah etc, as if they were also not under the persecution of corrupt councils in the land that Ya had given, when this was happening all along and the false prophets were being allowed to
prophesy by the means of the corrupt priests by their OWN means (ie OWN authority) . So to merely assume that one who sits in the seat of Moses is infallible is much like a Pope to an idolatrous catholic.
The fact that the council had to pass Messiah over to Pilate to be killed shows that the priesthood was not operating in the same way as you pretend it was as laid out by Ya in Deuteronomy. Jerusalem was under PAX, not subject to an annointed King appointed by Ya but to Rome and had been under the secular “King of the Jews” ,half Roman Herod who was far from Ya fearing in any case. Thus their ruling still passed through the hands of Pilate who then washed his hands of the matter and found Messiah innocent. The Father shows that ONE WITNESS declared him innocent and that the priests acted UNLAWFULLY from the start:
Mat 26:
59 Now the chief priests, and elders, and all the council, SOUGHT FALSE WITNESS against Messiah, to put him to death; 60 But found none: yea, though many false witnesses came, yet found they none. At the last came two FALSE witnesses, 61 And said, This fellow said, I am able to destroy the temple of Yah, and to build it in three days.
The sign of your and my Prophet Jonah bore witness of a three days and nights in the grave , but did the priests even comprehend or listen to the prophets NO!!! The true prophets and more than a couple of false witnesses are what TRUE priests would have used to decide the matter but these priests did things by their OWN means.
They were looking for FALSE WITNESS TO PUT HIM TO DEATH a very big no no!!
My fellow Torah reader what does our Father say?
Ex 20:16 Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.
11 Tim 2:5 8 But we know that the law is good, IF a man (INCLUDING A PRIEST) use it lawfully;
But we know the priests were not lawful therefore neither good. They did not heed the witness of the Roman, Pilate, now did they??
Instead, then, the people, the rabble were left to be the judges
The thinking that you have used here is no differnet to the same false teaching that we see among this mainstream catholic “christianity” who profess the saying “touch not gods annointed” referring to demonised, non torah obedient, so-called miracle healing false teachers eg Benny Hinn etc insinuating that Ya does not allow us to expose or challenge false doctrine, what then of Samuel the prophet who spoke to King Saul or John the baptiser who told king Herod off for not keeping Torah-he lost his head -where were the priests then why did they not support John in his upholdig of the Torah??? They were too busy pleasing the half Roman.
Likewise the Rabbis (call no man Rabbi save Y’shua) say to their victims that the torah is too hard too understand themselves and they must obey what th eRabbi says even whne it contradicts Torah-thus we have Talmudism etc.
All Our Heavenly Father has shown and allowed through his unfair sentence as prophesied, that His Son would be falsely accused :
Is 53: 7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.
, thus making a shame of the powers and principalities that have acted against the Torah from the very top.
Col 2:15 15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.
The corrupt priesthood is the very thing that was exposed through his death when he chose to lay his life down in that corrupt system.
and that is why he has been appointed the True And Righteous Judge who will return as such.
When your fellow Pharisee, and our apostle Paul and Peter were before the council, again being judged by false witnesses, they made it plain as to who has higher in authority.
Acts5:32 29 ¶Then Peter and the other apostles answered and said, We ought to obey Ya rather than men.
and more
32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Ruach ha Kodesh, whom Ya hath given to them that obey him. 33 ¶When they heard that, they were cut to the heart, and took counsel to slay them. 34 Then stood there up one in the council, a PHARISEE, NAMED GAMALIEL, A DOCTOR OF THE LAW, had in reputation among all the people, and commanded to put the apostles forth a little space; 35 And said unto them, Ye men of Israel, take heed to yourselves what ye intend to do as touching these men. 36 For before these days rose up Theudas, boasting himself to be somebody; to whom a number of men, about four hundred, joined themselves: who was slain; and all, as many as obeyed him, were scattered, and brought to nought. 37 After this man rose up Judas of Galilee in the days of the taxing, and drew away much people after him: he also perished; and all, even as many as obeyed him, were dispersed. 38 And now I say unto you, Refrain from these men, and let them alone: for if this counsel or this work be of men, it will come to nought: 39 But if it be of Ya, ye cannot overthrow it; LEST HAPLY YE BE FOUND EVEN TO FIGHT AGAINST YA. 40 And to him they agreed:
Did the Council of the Pharisee, Gamaliel then not work out and cancel the council of the false priests who had tried to destroy the work of Messiah??? was Gamaliel not honouring Ya above the council of men?
LEST HAPLY YE BE FOUND EVEN TO FIGHT AGAINST YA.
Yes he was and it was contrary to how the false priests at Y’shua’s hearing operated.
So why have you not heeded the verdict of the prophet then who you call false, our Messiah Eoshoa/ Y’shua
Mat 16:
16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art messiah, the Son of the living Ya. 17 And Y’shua answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Bar–jona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but mY FATHER WHICH IS IN HEAVEN.
18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and [BUT] upon this [THAT] rock (referring to the Father not Peter or a Pope) I will build my congregation; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
Gamaliel made true council and was not as spineless as those so-called priests. Ya is no respector of persons- King David learnt that early when he sinned -even he suffered loss but repented for the better.
The father has witnessed such things by these false priests over and over again amongst his chosen people who allow false prophets to prophesy and the true ones to be killed. The priesthood was not INFALLIBLE then and far less so in Mesisah’s time following Ichabod.
You would do well my friend to hear your true prophet’s warning and repent of such error.
then
Jer 5: 30 A wonderful and horrible thing is committed IN THE LAND;31 The prophets prophesy falsely, and the priests bear rule by
their means* ; and my people love to have it so: and what will ye do in the end thereof?
* yad -by themselves, presumptuously etc etc ie self appointed ruling.
So I ask what will you do?????
I find it ironic too that the word presmptuous is mentioned here referring now directly to the priests themselves since your quote
of Deuteronomy contains 17:12 And the man that will do PRESUMPTUOUSLY, and will not hearken unto the priest that standeth to minister there BEFORE Ya THY Eil, or unto the judge,
It is accepted that they are to be BEFORE YA when judging ie SERVING HIM LAWFULLY just as it is assumed that the parent is LAWFUL
before Ya and the child can thus honour him, but what if his parent does not the will of the Heavenly Father???
Mat 12:48 But he answered and said unto him that told him, Who is my mother? and who are my brethren? 49 And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren! 50 For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.
Or What of Ezekiel another one of our true Prophets, do you heed his voice?
EZEKIEL 22: 25 There is a conspiracy of her prophets in the midst thereof, like a roaring lion ravening the prey; they have devoured souls; they have taken the treasure and precious things; they have made her many widows in the midst thereof. 26 HER PRIESTS HAVE VIOLATED MY LAW, and have profaned mine kodesh things: they have put no difference between the separated and profane, neither have they shewed difference between the unclean and the clean, and have hid their eyes from my sabbaths, and I am profaned among them. 27 Her princes in the midst thereof are like wolves ravening the prey, to shed blood, and to destroy souls, to get dishonest gain. 28 And her prophets have daubed them with untempered morter, seeing vanity, and divining lies unto them, saying, Thus saith the Master Ya, when the Master hath not spoken.
Mat23:
29 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous, 30 And say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets. 31 Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets. 32 Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers. 33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell? 34 ¶Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city: 35 That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar. 36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.
It would have been the priests themselves who killed this true prophet Zacharias since only they were allowed in this section of the temple or else it was the scribes and /Pharisees who entered there unlawfully -either way : UNLAWFUL and blasphemous!!
I do not need to make any excuse for my prophet who rose again and gave the sign of Jonah, the physical temple was also destroyed much to the contradiction of the claim that not every stone fell.Those who worship instead the stones of a fort ie wailing wall, rather than seeing the Corner stone Messiah that has been laid upon Ya the Rock and we are to be the living stones of that house of Ya, that we are the temple and not a temple built with hands and that we have now a High Priest whose name is Y’shua/Eoshoa the begotten son of the livng Ya.
Why do men pray to dead stones? Do they have ears? Have they not already spoken when the Son said they will fall. Why not to the living Ya whose son will conquer death itself when he raises his righteous people to life at the last day.
If you regard men above Ya and his Torah then you have an idolatrous religion.
not even the true prophet Eoshoa/Y’shua was seen to be doing that by the very PHARISEES as stated themselves :
Mat 22: 15 ¶Then went the Pharisees, and took counsel how they might entangle him in his talk. 16 And they sent out unto him their disciples with the Herodians, saying, Master, we know that thou art true, and teachest the way of Ya in truth, NEITHER CAREST THOU FOR ANY MAN: FOR THOU REGARDEST NOT THE PERSON OF MEN.
the true idolatry is that of men worshipping men and that was the real thorn in the side for most Pharisees since Y’shua exposed this in them.
But not all were this way, by the mercy of Ya, for we find men of faith like Joseph of Aramethaea.
Now what of him? -did he accept the Sanhedrin council did he accept his death -NO he did not since he was indeed a disciple (talmidim) of Eoshoa /Y’shu and therefore awaited his coming Kingdom by faith. Thus his faith was put into action:
Mark 15:43
43 Joseph of Arimathaea, an honourable counsellor (member of the SANHEDRIN), WHICH ALSO WAITED FOR THE KINGDOM OF YA, came, and went in boldly unto Pilate, and craved the body of Y’shua. 44 And Pilate marvelled if he were already dead: and calling unto him the centurion, he asked him whether he had been any while dead. 45 And when he knew it of the centurion, he gave the body to Joseph.
Pliate and Joseph were two in the whole process who did NOT accept the FALSE PRIESTS authority and neither do I since
we must obey Ya rather than men- the first commanment which is above every other, Torah must be followed in that spirit and not be manipulated in order to please man which your fellow Pharisee friend Paul declared too.
21 Fathers, provoke not your children to anger, lest they be discouraged. 22 Servants, obey in all things your masters according to the flesh; not with eyeservice, as menpleasers; but in singleness of heart, FEARING YA: 23 And whatsoever ye do, do it heartily, as to the MASTER, and NOT unto men;
Nonetheless having said all, Ya had sent his son to die as prophesied and his Son laid down his own life to fulfill the requirement that he had to be our passover lamb. It was the will of the Father that sent him to his death and resurrection it was not by the will of the false priests. They did not receive that power even though they were false except that it was given to them as scripture itself testifies. So we do not see the priests as the end to the prophet and sent saviour Y’shua, but the beginning of our faith and thus the wisdom(TORAH) of Ya which confounds the worldy wise.
John 10:
15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.
17 Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again. 18 No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. THIS COMMANDMENT HAVE I RECEIVED OF MY FATHER.
Shalom to you if you abide in the doctrine of the law and the true prophets.
Hi YPF,
I read your post, and it seem to me that Christians believe Isaiah more than you do. Though you deny vehemently that his prophecies fulfilled by Jesus were about the Messiah, it is clear as day to us that Jesus fulfilled those prophesies (e.g. Isa 7:14, Isa 9:6-7 and Isa 53, just to name a few).
Now, if you reject that Jesus fulfilled those prophesies. who did? Because if they were not fulfilled, then you should really question the validity of Isaiah as a Prophet of God.
You are also vague about how Jesus did not fulfill the test for a Prophet. This post would have had an impact (it had none for me) if you could cite one sign Jesus gave that was not fulfilled.
Also, how can you lay claim that Jesus didn’t pass the test of worshiping only God, when He said to the Samaritan woman in John 4:22-24
“Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews. But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.”
When He said to the lawyer in response to his question about the greatest commandment in Matthew 22:37
“Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind”.
Those are just two blatant examples about Jesus pointing us to worship the God of the Jews.
Ufuomaee You don’t believe Isaiah but you believe Matthew when he (mis)quotes Isaiah. Isaiah 7:14 was fulfilled by Isaiah’s wife (it says nothing about a virgin). Isaiah 9:6 was fulfilled by King Hezekiah and Isaiah 53 is going to be fulfilled by the righteous of Israel. As for my claim that Jesus pointed to himself – how do you read the claim that no one comes to the Father but through him? How would you read it if someone were to claim that you cannot approach Jesus but through faith in someone or something else?
YPF, I’m sorry, but I disagree with you on all points.
I definitely believe Isaiah, because Matthew did not misquote him. I’d really like to know how Isaiah’s wife fulfilled this prophesy, which was definitely about a single, unmarried maiden who (being honourable of enough to bear Immanuel) would no doubt have been a virgin (in keeping with the culture and laws for such chaste women). Who was the Immanuel that she bore, and what is written about him?
You also wish for me to believe that Isaiah 9:6, which spoke of a child who would be born and who would also be called Mighty God, Everlasting Father etc is about none other than King Hezekiah??? Are you kidding me? If you exalt him so much, why are you still waiting on the Messiah? What did he do to prove that he fulfilled this prophesy? If he is the Mighty God and Everlasting Father, as Isaiah said, doesn’t that contradict your own belief that God cannot come in the form of a man? It sounds like you will put just about anybody in Jesus’ shoes!
And as to the last point of saying that Isaiah 53 is about the nation of Israel and is still waiting to be fulfilled…that is the most loaded and ridiculous statement I’ve ever heard! Really, you guys really think highly of yourselves to believe that you somehow have been baring the sins of the world, and have been spotless and defenseless.
How do these phrases apply to Israel now or in the past? “a MAN of sorrows”, “HE made his GRAVE with the wicked”, “with the rich in HIS DEATH”, “HE had done no violence, neither was any deceit in HIS mouth” “HE was wounded for our transgressions”, “with HIS stripes we are healed”
I mean seriously! Who is ‘WE’? If ‘he’ is refering to Israel, who is ‘we’ (those who supposedly benefited from Israel’s scorge) refering to? The world? Was Israel persecuted unjustly to bring about salvation for the world? (actually, if you read about Isaiah, your suffering was not brought upon you unjustly, but because YOU forsook God and you killed His prophets).
I believe Isaiah was speaking to the Israelites who would benefit from the scourge of one MAN! A Man who was “brought as a lamb to the slaughter”. He is God’s righteous servant who will justify many!
Any sincere person can connect the dots here. This is willful blindness.
Concerning Jesus saying that none can come to God except through Him. I am surprised that that is your only evidence to show that He taught that we should not worship God alone. Wasn’t it God who told Moses to make a snake on a pole so that ALL who gazed upon it would be healed (Numbers 21:8)? And that no one would be healed unless they gazed upon this snake on Moses’ rod?
What if people had been like you and bulked at that idea! “This is inconsistent with God! He can heal us without asking us to look upon a snake!” “Why only a snake on Moses staff? We can get more staffs and put snakes on them, and more people can get healed faster?”
Look, God had two conditions even them. Not only were they to gaze upon a snake on a rod, but ONLY the one that Moses put at the end of his would activate the power of God’s healing!
So if you’re looking for a precedent, there is one right there! Saying that He is the only way to God doesn’t mean that we should worship Him in any case. But when Isaiah speaks of Him as the Everlasting Father, and the Holy Spirit reveals to us that He is the Holy One of God…we know who we worship. We know that God is One.
Your arguments against Jesus then were not strong enough to stop so many from believing. They are even weaker now.
Sincerely, Ufuoma.
Ufuoma
You accuse me of willful blindness – let us see which of us is blind (although I don’t for a second believe that your blindness is willful – it was imposed upon you by other people)
Isaiah 7:14 – where does it say anything about an unmarried woman much less a virgin? And Isaiah says that I will be the mother who will give the child his name as opposed to Matthew who has the vague “he will be called” – furthermore – the context makes it abundantly clear that the prophecy needed to be fulfilled in the times of King Ahaz – nothing to do with Jesus
Isaiah 9:6
https://yourphariseefriend.wordpress.com/2012/02/08/fifth-response-to-dalton-lifsey-isaiah-956-67/
Isaiah 53 – I said the RIGHTEOUS of Israel – I did not say the nation as a whole – and you can read this – https://yourphariseefriend.wordpress.com/2011/03/11/isaiah-53-teaches-that-jesus-is-not-the-messiah/
https://yourphariseefriend.wordpress.com/2014/08/12/isaiah-53-a-verse-by-verse-exposition/
And I don’t need any quote from Jesus to tell me that he directed attention to himself – look at the religion that adores him and look at how this religion denigrates worshipers of God who do not believe that Jesus is God
I’ve read a lot of your posts, which you have shared to me through comments (including most of the above). I appreciate your approach, but times like this, I believe I’ve earned the respect for direct answers.
I’m tired of reading through your posts, as I’m positive they can no further influence my perspective anymore that mine will change yours.
Your last statement about Jesus is really the clanger. The fact that we worship Him MUST mean that He taught us to not worship God alone. I get that many Christians’ conclusion and exaltation of Jesus may be wrong (not all believe He is God), however… you need to judge Him by what He did and said and the prophesies and revelations about Him and not by His followers! That’s just the truth. Your salvation depends on it.
It is clear to me that your judgement of Christ is highly unbalanced and uninformed, lest you come to believe that He was the one your people rejected and that in fact, Christianity is not the dreaded religion you feared but the liberation your soul has longed for.
In anycase, God will judge each and everyone of us. I wish you the best as I do myself.
Peace and out, Ufuoma.
Ufuomaee You are welcome to return and rejoin the discussion whenever it so pleases you. I would just add – don’t be so confident that your persepctive cannot change – truth is a powerful thing.
“If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, orwhether I speak of myself.” (John 7:17)
So. I read through Ufuoma’s comments here and I have some things to add. I know it’s an old conversation but here are my two cents anyway.
First, when a Christian calls us willfully blind or spiritually blind, this is what I hear:
“I don’t have to actually examine your arguments, see if they have any merit, and see if I can mount a full-throated defense. Also, you are saying things that are making me uncomfortable. It’s so much easier to denigrate you and call you blind than for me to actually step out of my comfort zone and have an honest and fair and respectful debate with you.”
I’ve debated with Ufuoma and I have found her to be kind and sincere, but I am disappointed to see her comments on this page dripping with contempt for Jews and Judaism.
And so often to my great sorrow that is the case. The nicest Christians I’ve spoken to–when the topics turn to religion, suddenly the disdain simmering beneath the surface erupts. (I have one Christian friend who defies this description and has always been loving and respectful.)
The tremendous anger that we provoke in Christians simply by stating our beliefs or asking challenging questions even respectfully is telling–at least to this Jew.
Another point Ufuoma made is, if I understood her correctly, something to the effect that we willfully misunderstand our own Scripture so we should not discover that Christianity is not the dreaded religion we believe it to be.
For the record, Jews have no dread of Christianity any more than any other religion such as Islam, Buddhism, Taoism, Shintoism, Hinduism, Wicca, or whatever.
Judaism does not need Christianity to survive. But without Judaism, Christianity is nothing. Yet without teaching that Judaism is inferior, Christianity is also nothing. This is why Christians teach each other that Judaism is cold and legalistic and is all about ritual without love (ideas they get from their bible). However, Jewish writings say virtually nothing about Christianity and Jews rarely discuss other religions among themselves. Christianity is completely irrelevant to Jewish life. Most religious Jews of my acquaintance never heard of the word “trinity.” All they know about Christianity is that Jesus is that guy on the cross that they see from time to time.
In fact if you compare Jewish writings beginning with Scripture and continuing with the Talmud and the works of famous rabbis down through the centuries to Christian writings beginning with their scripture and continuing with the works of prominent Christians from the early church fathers to Martin Luther and beyond, the difference is stark. The venom toward Jews and Judaism flows through the writings from the beginning. Yet Jews who suffered so much from Christians and should have had every right to be bitter had barely a a word to say about the barbarians among whom they lived and their idolatrous religion.
So Ufuoma got it the wrong way ’round. The Church perceived Judaism as a grave threat. Why did Jesus’s own people who presumably knew him best and knew their Scripture best reject him and continue to reject him? This was very troubling and is therefore one reason historians give for the terrible persecution Christendom inflicted upon the Jewish people.
It is very rich for Christians to tell Jews, “you were persecuted because you rejected Jesus” when they were the ones perpetrating these great crimes. If rejecting Jesus meant being the victim rather than the aggressor, then we choose to be the victim. How much better to be cursed than to curse!
Finally, Ufuoma has forgotten that the prophets tell us that we were persecuted without cause (Isaiah 52:3) and that while God was only angry a little bit, the nations way overdid the punishment (Zechariah 1:15). The prophets talk a lot about the punishments that God will pour down upon the nations who persecuted His people. If they were only carrying out the will of God, why punish them? They should be rewarded!
These are things to think about. And I hope we can have this discussion without rancor and without contempt even as the debate gets heated and passionate. Let us remember that we are all God’s children, and may He always lead us in the light of His truth.
“God is close to all who call to Him, to all who call to Him sincerely” (Psalms 145:18).
Peace and blessings,
Dina
Reblogged this on 1000 Verses – a project of Judaism Resources.
Following.
Dina you are one of the most fake, lovers of self I’ve ever seen comment. I can see you who you’re God is YOURSELF
Tiff,
In a quiet moment, you may find yourself appalled by your unprovoked personal attack on Dina. You may ask yourself just how it is you could have thought, even for a moment, that it would be acceptable—more, commendable!—to insult and humiliate another publicly like this, and how you could have taken the time to type and send even a message as short as yours without pausing to think about what unnecessary and unearned pain it might cause. Was it the cloak of anonymity provided by the internet? Was it the abusive atmosphere of online American discourse that freed you from the natural reluctance to shame another? Or perhaps a momentary rage, the effect of which was to intoxicate you? Certainly, one or more of these possibilities may have contributed to your hateful comments, but another cause is surely found in the diatribes of Jesus directed at those with whom he found disagreement. In speaking hatefully to those with whom you disagree, you have only followed in his footsteps.
While the Christian will tell us that Jesus was the noblest soul that ever lived, the most humble, the most compassionate, the most loving, the venom he directed at his interlocutors tells another story. It was this noble soul who made it his habit to publicly insult his opponents. It was he who declared that the Jewish people were murderous, to be made responsible for the murders of all the innocents unjustly killed throughout Tanach, including those that predate the Jewish people (Matthew 23:25). It was he that called the Jewish people children of the devil, participants in his murderous and deceptive ways (John 8:44). Such words as he said, the hand trembles to type. To repeat them seems to be to perpetuate the crime. Better they be blotted out from human memory! But, these are the words of that “prince of peace,” that man who taught that one should turn the other cheek when he receives injury.
This is the lesson of love to be learned from Jesus. His meekness and gentleness are written into the text, found in the insults he hurled at those who opposed him or even just questioned him. Because he is imagined to be the most loving of all persons that ever lived, it must be supposed that every hateful word directed at the Jewish people was deserved. And, if he called his opponents “vipers,” then why should the Christian not do the same? He is justified, the servant only following the example of the master. He will deem it the greatest act of love to vilify his opponents; he is, after all, doing nothing more than “speaking the truth in love.”
How ever was it that you could personally attack Dina rather than address her arguments? How it is that you could stoop to insult her? This is no mystery. You have been taught that this is the way of the noblest, most loving soul that ever lived. And you have been told to follow in his footsteps. When you rethink your words, perhaps you will rethink his as well, seeing that their influence has been most pernicious.
Jim
wow I wish M. Brown could read your blog. Last night I was listening to him on his Thursday special talk about how some people want to take out all the horrible language like snakes and vipers from the NT but he didn’t think so. He thinks WE should understand how it wasn’t meant to point the finger at ALL jews – just the misguided leadership of the times…the pharisees etc….. I turned it off. And today I read what you said above……so so so true. I hope he reads this! Thanks for the “lift” !
debbie
Hi Tiff,
I’m not sure if you are following the response your comment has generated . I hope you don’t mind if I put in my two cents to your comment.
It is wrong to assume the worst about someone whom you hardly know based on their written opinions without engaging them in a discussion or debate.
Dina is a God fearing Jew who is very passionate about her people and their history, especially in their interaction with Christianity . She has also challenged my position which is influenced by my Catholic background. I find her comments jarring most of the time , but what she pointed out is true.
I have had the opportunity of discussing with Dina her positions about Christianity,Jews and Judaism . These discussions are heated and I find her comments sharp at times. However I can tell you that she is by far the only one who is patient with my questions and comments here . I have had discussions and debates with a few other commenters here and unfortunately it ended on a bad note. I can tell you that though there are heated discussions between Dina and I , they have always ended without any animosity between us. I have learnt a lot from her and I hope she has learned something from me.
No one is perfect . Each one of us have our own personal beliefs and biases that we hang on too tightly at times , without trying to consider the opinion of others. I hope you will consider .
Thank you.
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i live among the gentiles and they go mumble, mumble, apostle paul mumble, mumble when confronted with the words ACCORDING TO jesus where it is written: “i never knew you, depart from me, ye that commit iniquity.”…..b/c/ if anything, when they start testifying it’s ‘oh what a wretched sinner i am. oh if it wasn’t for the blood of jesus.’
if the satan character can’t stand if he goes against himself, then neither the jesus character wherein it is written that he says, “depart from me, ye that work iniquity.”
and for anyone using the character saul/paul. where in the nevi’im do the prophets prophesy the coming of saul/paul? THEY DON’T! and neither did the jesus character. in fact the story has it that he said, ‘it is finished.’
and for the virgin birth. ha’y’hoodim know the definition of a ‘yoledet.’ ONE would think the ‘holy ghost’ dwelling in the christian would understand all tongues, especially ‘IVREET.’ however my money is on that it’s their favorite search engine.
so as to not be a parabler. that last paragraph is referring to: the young pregnant woman (v’yoledet- has just given birth) to a son, let her name him immanuel.
not someone approx. 600 years in the future giving birth!