The Applicant with 353 References
“Of Whom Speaketh the Prophet?”
Imagine that it is your responsibility to hire a person to fill a critical position in a department that is essential for the welfare of your nation. A particular candidate sends in his resume together with 353 papers presented as testimonials and references to his ability to fill this important post. You research each and every one of these documents. You discover that most of the telephone numbers and addresses found in the documents are bogus. The positions that this candidate claimed to have held in the past were never held by him. Some of the testimonials are about other people. Some of the documents that he presented are not even relevant to the discussion.
Would you hire this applicant?
You don’t hire him.
His friends spread rumors about you that the reason you didn’t hire their hero is because you are evil. Other friends of this applicant claim that you are blinded by a bias against their champion.
What can you do?
You can present the “353 references” to the public.
Christians believe that Jesus is the Messiah prophesied by the prophets of the Jewish Scriptures. They point to various passages in the Jewish Scripture which they understand as references to Jesus. They believe this to be so self-evident that they cannot fathom how it is that Jews who take their Scriptures seriously do not accept Jesus as their Messiah.
Some of these Christians are convinced that the Jews also see Jesus in the pages of Scripture but their evil nature has them denying him anyway. If this is your belief then the following article is not for you. Other Christians believe that the Jews are stricken with a spiritual blindness and are simply incapable of seeing the “obvious and plain truth”. If you subscribe to this belief, then this article isn’t addressing you either.
If, however; you recognize the possibility that the Jews honestly see the Bible in a different light and you are sincerely interested in hearing the Jewish point of view then I hope that my humble words will satisfy your quest.
My objective is to help you read the Scriptures from a Jewish perspective. However; before I get down to those passages that Christians see as a reference to Jesus, I will first make a statement about the original question. The question: “Of whom speaketh the prophet”; is already loaded with Christian implications. The question assumes that the prophet is speaking of some hidden character that lurks between the lines and it is the reader’s responsibility to “discover” this secret character.
The Jew doesn’t see the scriptures as some secret code that needs to be unlocked or as a mystery novel that needs to be solved. The question that the Jew asks himself as he reads the Scriptures is: “what is the prophet trying to tell me?” The interpretation of Scripture that you will find here will be based on the straightforward contextual reading of the passages.
There are several versions of the missionary “list” of prophecies “fulfilled” by Jesus. I will be addressing the prophecies listed on a piece of missionary literature that was mailed to members of the Orthodox Jewish community in Lakewood New Jersey. This list presents 353 prophecies allegedly “fulfilled” by Jesus.
Let us begin
(The numbering of the verses and the quotation following the chapter and verse are all taken from the missionary tract.)
1. Genesis 3:15 “seed of a woman” (virgin birth)
The Christian sees deep significance in the words: “her seed” referring to Eve. The argument of the missionary is that since we only have reference to the “seed of the woman” and no mention is made of the seed of a man so we have a prophetic announcement of a “virgin birth”.
This argument fails for several reasons. According to this line of reasoning; every time that the Scriptures address an individual concerning their progeny using the term: “your seed” we ought to conclude that we are talking of a virgin birth (in those situations where a female is being addressed such as Genesis 16:10) or of a birth that is achieved through a male without a female (where a male is being addressed such as in Genesis 3:15). If this were true then we would have many virgin births announced in the Bible.
Furthermore; how could anyone know if this prophecy was ever fulfilled?
2. Genesis 3:15 “he will bruise Satan’s head”
The simple reading of the text tells us that the snake will bite the heel of Eve’s progeny while Eve’s progeny will smite snakes on the head. This is simple and straightforward. Just as the previous verse (Genesis 3:14) speaks of snakes crawling on their bellies with no reference to a specific future event so it is with this passage. It simply describes the state of enmity between snakes and humans that will endure until the Messianic era (Isaiah 11:8; 65:25).
3. Genesis 5:24 “the bodily ascension to heaven illustrated”
This passage is not a prophetic prediction. It is a simple narrative. This narrative says nothing about a “bodily ascension” (although it doesn’t exclude it). If we insist that this narrative refers to a bodily ascension then this only harms the missionary position. We would then see that bodily ascensions are not limited to divine beings but are possible with mere humans (see also 2Kings 2:11).
4. Genesis 9:26,27 “the god of Shem will be the son of Shem”
The passage tells us that God will dwell in the tents of Shem. This was fulfilled in the Tabernacle (Exodus 29:45), in the Temple (1Kings 6:13), and will be fulfilled again in the final Temple (Ezekiel 37:28). No mention is made of a “human god”.
5. Genesis 12:3 “the seed of Abraham will bless all nations”
The verse here speaks of nations receiving blessing through Abraham. Indeed; Abraham taught the world to put their faith in the One Creator of heaven and earth. This blessing will continue through the nation of Israel as the prophets predicted (Isaiah 60:3; Zechariah 8:23).
6. Genesis 12:7 “The promise made to Abraham’s seed”
The promise that this verse describes is that the land of Israel will be given to Abraham’s children. (According to the logic of “prophecy #1” this would need to be fulfilled by one who is born of a father without a mother.) This prophecy will be fulfilled through the nation of Israel as God promised (Deuteronomy 30:5; Ezekiel 37:25).
7. Genesis 14:18 “a priest after the order of Melchizedek”
No prophetic prediction here, just a narrative.
8. Genesis 14:18 “King of Peace and Righteousness”
No prophetic prediction.
9. Genesis 14:18 “The last supper foreshadowed”
No prophetic prediction.
10. Genesis 17:19 “The seed of Isaac”
The passage speaks here of God’s eternal covenant with the people of Israel as described by the prophets (Ezekiel 15:60).
11. Genesis 22:8 “the lamb of God promised”
Not a prophetic prediction. In any case, the lamb promised here was to be a burnt offering. Jesus was never burned.
12. Genesis 22:18 “Isaac’s seed will bless all nations”
In the previous verse we learn how Abraham’s seed will be as numerous as the sand of the sea. This passage is obviously not referring to one individual but to a nation (see #5).
13. Genesis 26:2-5 “The seed of Isaac promised as the redeemer”
Here too the promise is to a nation as numerous as the stars in the sky, not to one lone individual. The promise says nothing about a redeemer, rather it speaks of inheriting the land of Israel (see #6).
14. Genesis 28:12 “The bridge to heaven”
Not a prophetic prediction. If anything the point of the vision was that God will preserve Jacob and that the place was consecrated as the House of the Lord (Malachi 3:6; Isaiah 2:2).
15. Genesis 28:14 “the seed of Jacob”
Here too the prophecy applies to a seed that is as numerous as the dust of the earth; not to a lone individual (see#5 and #6).
16. Genesis 49:10 “the time of his coming”
Here Jacob prophecies that dominion and leadership shall not depart from the tribe of Judah. Indeed; since David took the throne the leadership of the Jewish people has been in the hands of the tribe of Judah. In fact the name “Jew” is simply an English corruption of the term: “Judean” – emphasizing the abiding centrality of the tribe of Judah in the government of Israel. Until today we have accepted no other king but our loyalty is to the dynasty of David.
This prophecy does not tell us anything about the time of the Messiah’s coming.
17. Genesis 49:10 “the seed of Judah”
Tribal lineage follows the father. According to the Christian Scriptures Jesus was NOT from the seed of Judah.
18. Genesis 49:10 “called Shiloh or the one sent”
This is indeed a reference to the Messiah but there is nothing in the verse that would have us believe it is talking of Jesus. In any case; the word “Shiloh” does not mean “the one sent”.
19. Genesis 49:10 “Messiah to come before Judah lost identity”
Judah still did not lose identity (see #16).
20. Genesis 49:10 “unto him shall the obedience of the people be”
Indeed; Messiah will rule over many nations (Numbers 24;17,18; Obadiah 1:21). This is talking of dominion in the practical realm of government. In the real world; Jesus ruled over no one.
21. Exodus 3:13-15 “the great “I AM”
Here God refers to Himself as “I am”. Just because Jesus also spoke these words according to the report of the Christian Scriptures doesn’t make him god and doesn’t entitle him to claim a fulfillment of prophecy any more than the king of Tyre’s claim to divinity makes him god and a fulfillment of prophecy (Ezekiel 28:2).
22. Exodus 12:5 “a lamb without a blemish”
This is not a prophetic prediction. It is simply a description of the lamb that was brought as the Passover offering.
23. Exodus 12:13 “the blood of the lamb saves from wrath”
Those who slaughtered the lamb in obedience to God’s command were saved. The Egyptians who venerated the lamb (Exodus 8:22) were destroyed. This passage is a complete refutation to Christian theology.
24. Exodus 12:21-27 “christ is our Passover”
Did the Jewish people “venerate” the lamb? Of course not! They slaughtered the lamb in recognition that God is the absolute sovereign over every facet of existence including the lamb. The Christian veneration of Jesus is the very antithesis of everything that Passover stands for.
25. Exodus 12:46 “not a bone in the lamb to be broken”
Not a prophetic prediction.
26. Exodus 15:2 “His exaltation predicted as Yeshua”
Not a prophetic prediction rather this song praises God for having saved the Jews from the Egyptians.
27. Exodus 15:11 “His character holiness”
God’s character is indeed holiness. How was this fulfilled in a man who was full of vindictive hatred against those who saw through his charade?
28. Exodus 17:6 “the spiritual rock of Israel”
Not a prophetic prediction.
29. Exodus 33:19 “His character merciful”
Not a prophetic prediction.
30. Leviticus 1:2-9 “His sacrifice a sweet smelling savor to God”
Not a prophetic prediction.
31. Leviticus 14:11 “the leper cleansed a sign to priesthood”
Not a prophetic prediction. The cleansing of a leper is not a sign of priesthood; it is part of the office of priesthood.
32. Leviticus 16:15-17 “prefigures christ’s once-for-all death”
Not a prophetic prediction.
33. Leviticus 16:27 “suffering outside the camp”
Not a prophetic prediction.
34. Leviticus 17:11 “the blood – the life of the flesh”
Not a prophetic prediction.
35. Leviticus 17:11 “it is the blood that makes atonement”
This verse is explicitly speaking about blood on the Temple altar. Jesus’s blood was never placed on the altar. Furthermore; this passage does not say that blood is the exclusive path to atonement as Christian theologians claim (Ezekiel 33:16).
https://yourphariseefriend.wordpress.com/2011/05/23/response-to-the-line-of-fire-5/
36. Leviticus 23:36-37 “The drink offering: “if any man thirst”
Not a prophetic prediction.
37. Numbers 9:12 “Not a bone of him broken”
See #25
38. Numbers 21:9 “The serpent on a pole – christ lifted up”
Interesting how in #1 the serpent is Satan. In any case this is also not a prophetic prediction.
39. Numbers 24:17 “I shall see him but not now”
This is talking of the real Messiah who will destroy Israel’s enemies not someone who gave Israel’s enemies a theological justification to persecute them.
40. Deuteronomy 18:15 “This is of a truth that prophet”
Those who applied the Law of Moses to determine that Isaiah, Ezekiel, Jeremiah and Habakkuk were authentic prophets were the same people who determined that Jesus was not. If you reject their decision as it applies to the latter, then please be consistent and reject their decision concerning the former as well.
https://yourphariseefriend.wordpress.com/2011/05/17/non-prophet/
41. Deuteronomy 18:15-16 “had you believed Moses, ye would have believed me”
On what basis?
42. Deuteronomy 18:18 “sent by the Father to speak His word”
See #40
43. Deuteronomy 18:19 “whoever will not hear him must bear his sin”
See #40
44. Deuteronomy 21:23 “cursed is he that hangs on a tree”
Not a prophetic prediction. In any case the translation is incorrect. The point of the passage is that by leaving a human body hanging on a tree one disparages the honor of God.
45. Joshua 5:14-15 “the captain of our salvation”
This is not a prophetic prediction. It is referring to an angel who has come to put Israel’s physical enemies to flight; not to one who encourages Israel’s enemies in their persecution of God’s chosen people.
46. Ruth 4:4-10 “christ, our kinsman has redeemed us”
Not a prophetic prediction and no mention is made of christ.
47. 1Samuel 2:10 “shall be anointed king to the Lord”
This is talking of the real Messiah. There is no way that one can claim that Jesus fulfilled this prophecy.
48. 2Samuel 7:12 “David’s seed”
Royal lineage proceeds from the father. According to the Christian Scriptures Jesus was not from the line of David.
49. 2Samuel 7:13 “his kingdom is everlasting”
Indeed; David’s kingdom is everlasting. One who has no claim to the throne of David cannot claim to have fulfilled this prophecy.
50. 2Samuel 7:14a “the son of God”
The end of the same verse speaks of the sins of this son of God. Either Christians must admit that Jesus sinned or they cannot apply this verse to Jesus.
51. 2samuel 7:16 “David’s house established forever”
See #48
52. 2Kings 2:11 “Bodily ascension illustrated”
See#3
53. 1Cronicles 17:11 “David’s seed”
See#48
54. 1Chronicles 17:12-13 “to reign of David’s throne forever”
See #48
55. 1Chronicles 17:13 “I will be his father, he … My son”
See #48 and #50
56. Job 9:32-33 “mediator between man and God”
This is not a prophetic prediction. Job sees himself in a dispute with God and he declares that he would wish that there be an arbitrator that could judge between them.
57. Job 19:23-27 “The resurrection predicted”
The passage does not speak of a resurrection. Job presents the argument that his contention against his friends will be vindicated in the end because he believes he is right.
58. Psalm 2:1-3 “the enmity of kings foreordained”
The Psalm describes how enemy kings gather against God and His anointed one. This anointed one is described as the one who rules over Zion; God’s holy mountain. The enemies are ultimately crushed. This prophets spoke of this end time battle in which God’s enemies are physically crushed (Isaiah 60:12; Ezekiel 38:1 – 39:29; Zechariah 14:12).
How did Jesus fulfill this prophecy? Which kings heard of him in his lifetime? How did his enemies get crushed? How did he rule with a rod of iron?
This Psalm cannot be applied to Jesus.
59. Psalm 2:2 “to own the title, anointed”
This passage simply speaks of God’s anointed. There is nothing here to indicate that this anointed one is Jesus.
60. Psalm 2:6 “his character – holiness”
See #27
61. The missionary pamphlet skips #61. See #151 and #158
62. Psalm 2:6 “to own the title King”
The Psalm indeed speaks of a king but there is nothing here to indicate that this king is Jesus.
63. Psalm 2:7 “declared the beloved son”
The Davidic king is called God’s son as are the Jewish people as a whole (Exodus 4:22; Jeremiah 31:8). There is nothing in the passage that would indicate that it is talking of Jesus. See #50
64. Psalm 2:7,8 “the crucifixion and resurrection intimated”
The passage says nothing about a crucifixion or a resurrection.
65. Psalm 2:8,9 “rule the nations with a rod of iron”
This describes practical political government not religious worship.
66. Psalm 2:12 “life comes through faith in him”
According to most translations this passage speaks of embracing purity and not of any individual. Even if we were to grant the unlikely translation of “the son” favored by modern missionaries the thrust of the passage will be that the kings are encouraged to submit to the political sovereignty of the Messiah, not to worship him as a god.
67. Psalm 8:2 “the mouths of babes perfect his praise”
This is speaking about the praise of God who created the moon and the stars (verse 4) and not the praise of a man who claimed to be god.
68. Palm 8:5,6 “his humiliation and exaltation”
This passage speaks of the humility of mankind in general and of God’s kindness in granting man dominion over nature (Genesis 1:28). This has nothing to do with Jesus.
69. Psalm 9:7-10 “Judge the world in righteousness”
This is talking of God’s judgment of the world. How did Jesus “judge the world in righteousness”? JUDGENOT
70. Psalm 16:10 “was not to see corruption”
Here David speaks of himself thanking God for saving him from death; a recurring theme throughout the Psalms (33:19; 56:14; 116:8).
71. Psalm 16:9-11 “was to arise from the dead”
The Psalm says nothing of the sort.
72. Psalm 17:15 “the resurrection predicted”
The Psalm says nothing of the sort.
73. Psalm 18:2-3 “the horn of salvation”
The Psalm speaks of the God who saved David from his troubles; it has nothing to do with Jesus.
74. Psalm 22:1 “forsaken because of the sins of others”
The Psalm says nothing about why the Psalmist was forsaken.
75. Psalm 22:1 “My God my God why hast thou forsaken me”
Not a prophetic prediction.
76. Psalm 22:2 “darkness upon Calvary for three hours”
Not a prophetic prediction; no mention of Calvary and no mention of three hours.
77. Psalm 22:7 “they shoot out the lip and shake the head”
Not a prophetic prediction.
78. Psalm 22:8 “he trusted in God, let him deliver him”
Not a prophetic prediction.
79. Psalm 22:9-10 “born the saviour”
Not a prophetic prediction and not a word about a savior.
80. Psalm 22:12-13 “they seek his death”
Not a prophetic prediction.
81. Psalm 22:14 “his blood poured out when they pierced his side”
Not a prophetic prediction. The metaphor: “spilled out” is not a reference to blood just as the metaphor: “my heart is melted like wax” is not a reference to any literal melting.
82. Psalm 22:14,15 “suffered agony on Calvary”
Not a prophetic prediction and no mention made of Calvary.
83. Psalm 22:15 “he thirsted”
No comment.
84. Psalm 22:16 “they pierced his hands and his feet”
Not a prophetic prediction and there is no mention of piercing in this passage.
85. Psalm 22:17,18 “stripped him before the stares of men”
Not a prophetic prediction and no mention of anyone being stripped.
86. Psalm 22:18 “they parted his garments”
Not a prophetic prediction.
87. Psalm 22:20,21 “he committed himself to God”
Not a prophetic prediction.
88. Psalm 22:20,21 “satanic power bruising redeemer’s heel”
Not a prophetic prediction, no mention made of Satan, of redeemer or of bruising the heel.
89. Psalm 22:22 “his resurrection declared”
Not a prophetic prediction and no mention made of a resurrection.
90. Psalm 22:27-28 “he shall be the governor of nations”
This is speaking of God’s dominion over nations.
91. Psalm 22:31 “it is finished”
The verse says nothing about “finishing”.
Psalm 22 describes David’s travails. As king of Israel we can understand that David’s travails mirror those of the nation that he represents. A key verse in recognizing who it is that the prophet speaketh of in this Psalm is verse 5 where the Psalmist exclaims to God: “in You; did our fathers trust”. The Psalmist saw himself as part of a nation. He did not see his situation as unique to himself. He was asking for the same type of salvation that our ancestors merited in their trust of God. This cannot apply to Jesus’ death on the cross. Christianity sees Jesus’ suffering as something unique and unparalleled in the history of mankind and the salvation that Jesus is asking for has no comparison in the history of Israel.
https://yourphariseefriend.wordpress.com/2013/01/17/psalm-22/
92. Psalm 23:1 “I am the good shepherd”
The Psalm is referring to God who is the good shepherd. Good human shepherds such as David direct people’s devotion towards God. Teachers who direct devotion to themselves are not “good shepherds” even by human standards.
93. Psalm 24:3 “his exaltation predicted”
Not a prophetic prediction. This Psalm speaks of all righteous people who merit to be brought close to God (see Psalm 65:5).
94. Psalm 30:3 “his resurrection predicted”
Not a prophetic prediction. The metaphor: “brought me up from the grave” is used to denote saving from deadly danger (see Psalm 86:13).
95. Psalm 31:5 “into thy hands I commit my spirit”
Not a prophetic prediction. This applies to anyone who trusts in God.
96. Psalm 31:11 “his acquaintances fled from him”
This Psalm speaks of the sins of the Psalmist (verse 12). Christians who believe that Jesus was sinless cannot claim that Jesus fulfilled this “prophecy”.
97. Psalm 31:13 “they took counsel to put him to death”
Not a prophetic prediction and not applicable to the Christian Jesus (see #96).
98. Psalm 31:14,15 “he trusted in God, let Him deliver him”
Not a prophetic prediction and not applicable to the Christian Jesus (see #96). This Psalm refers to David himself as well as to anyone who trusts in God provided that they are not deluded into thinking that they are sinless.
99. Psalm 34:20 “not a bone in him broken”
Not a prophetic prediction. This Psalm is talking of all righteous people.
100. Psalm 35:11 “false witnesses rose up against him”
Not a prophetic prediction. This Psalm refers to David himself.
101. Psalm 35:19 “he was hated without a cause”
Not a prophetic prediction. David is speaking of himself (see 1Samuel 26:18).
102. Psalm 38:11 “his friends stood afar off”
This Psalm refers to David himself. Furthermore; the Psalmist makes reference to his own sins (verses 5,6,7,19). This Psalm cannot be referring to someone who claimed to have never sinned.
103. Psalm 38:12 “enemies try to entangle him by craft”
See #102
104. Psalm 38:12-13 “silent before his accusers”
See #102
105. Psalm 38:20 “he went about doing good”
See #102
106. Psalm 40:2-5 “the joy of his resurrection predicted”
This Psalm is speaking again about David himself and in a broader sense about anyone who trusts in God and admits their own sins (verse 13). This Psalm cannot be referring to one who refused to acknowledge that he ever sinned.
107. Psalm 40:8 “his delight – the will of the Father”
See #106
108. Psalm 40:9 “he was to preach righteousness in Israel”
See #106
109. Psalm 40:14 “confronted by adversaries in the garden”
See #106. No mention made of a garden.
110. Psalm 41:9 “betrayed by a familiar friend”
This Psalm mentions the sins of the Psalmist (verse 5) obviously excluding Jesus who never admitted a sin.
111. Psalm 45:2 “words of grace come from his lips”
This Psalm is referring to a king (David) who got married and had children (verses 10-16); not to one who never married.
112. Psalm 45:6 “to own the title, God or Eloh-m”
See #111. The Moses owned the title “Eloh-m” (Exodus 7:1) without making him divine.
113. Psalm 45:7 “the special anointing by the holy spirit”
See #111. No mention is made of anointing by the holy spirit. God anointed David through His prophet (1samuel 16:13).
114. Psalm 45:7,8 “called the christ (Messiah or anointed)”
See #111. All Davidic kings are called “anointed”.
115. Psalm 45:17 “his name remembered forever”
See #111. David’s name is remembered forever (2Samuel 7:16; Psalm 41:13).
116. Psalm 55:12-14 “betrayed by a friend, not an enemy”
Not a prophetic prediction.
117. Psalm 55:15 “unrepentant death of betrayer”
The verse is speaking of a plurality of enemies; not one single person. The Psalm is speaking of David himself.
118. Psalm 68:18 “to give gifts to men”
The Psalmist is speaking of a past event and he is speaking of taking gifts not giving gifts.
119. Psalm 68:18 “ascended into heaven”
The Psalmist is speaking of an event that had already happened by the time he recorded the Psalm. This is referring to the encounter that took place between God and Israel at Sinai (as per the previous verse). This refers to God Himself (a similar metaphor is found in Psalm 7:8). The gifts that were taken refer to Israel’s willingness to accept God’s Law (Exodus 24:7).
120. Psalm 69:4 “hated without cause”
This Psalm speaks of the Psalmist’s sins (verse 6). Christians who like to believe that Jesus was sinless cannot turn around and claim that he fulfilled this prophecy. The Psalm speaks of David himself. See #101.
121. Psalm 69:8 “a stranger to his own brethren”
See #120.
122. 69:9 “zealous for the Lord’s house”
See #120
123. Psalm 69:14-20 “Messiah’s anguish of soul before crucifixion”
See #120. No mention is made of a crucifixion.
124. Psalm 69:20 “my soul is exceedingly sorrowful”
See #120
125. Psalm 69:21 “given vinegar in thirst”
See #120
126. Psalm 69:26 “the savior given and smitten by God”
See #120. No mention made of a savior.
127. Psalm 72:10,11 “great persons were to visit him”
This is talking of Solomon (1Kings 10:24,25; 2Chronicles 9:23,24).
128. Psalm 72:16 “the corn of wheat to fall into the ground”
Not a prophetic prediction. Rather this is a description of the blessing of abundance that will abide in the day of the righteous and just king.
129. Psalm 72:17 “belief on his name will produce offspring”
No mention made about belief in anyone’s name.
130. Psalm 72:17 “all nations shall be blessed by him”
This was indeed fulfilled by Solomon (1Kings 10:8; 2Chronicles 9:8).
131. 72:17 “all nations shall call him blessed”
See #130
132. Psalm 78:1-2 “he would teach in parables”
Not a prophetic prediction. This could apply to anyone who teaches a parable.
133. Psalm 78:2b “to speak the wisdom of God with authority”
Not a prophetic prediction and no mention made of “authority”.
134. Psalm 80:17 “the man of God’s right hand”
This applies to Israel as is obvious from the beginning of the passage where Israel is the vine planted by God’s right hand.
135. Psalm 88 “the suffering and reproach of Calvary”
This Psalm describes Israel’s suffering in exile.
136. Psalm 88:8 “they stood afar and watched”
The Psalmists speaks of the fact that those who knew him were distant from him; no mention is made of them “watching” his suffering.
137. Psalm 89:27 “firstborn”
This speaks of David himself as is obvious from the context.
138. Psalm 89:27 “Emanuel to be higher than earthly kings”
No mention is made of “Emanuel” and the promise of exaltation over other kings is simply a reiteration of the promise to Israel (Deuteronomy 26:19).
139. Psalm 89:35-37 “David’s seed, throne, kingdom endure forever”
This is God’s promise to David (2Samuel 7:16).
140. Psalm 89:36-37 “his character – faithfulness”
This is speaking about God Himself.
141. Psalm 90:2 “he is from everlasting”
This is speaking about God.
142. Psalm 91:11,12 “identified as Messianic; used to tempt christ”
No mention is made of Messiah. The passage is a promise to those who take shelter under God’s wing.
143. Psalm 97:9 “his exaltation predicted”
The passage speaks of God’s exaltation.
144. Psalm 100:5 “his character – goodness”
This is talking of God’s character.
145. Psalm 102:1-11 “the suffering and reproach of Calvary”
Tis is talking of Israel’s suffering in exile as the context makes clear (verse 14)
146. Psalm 102:25-27 “Messiah is the preexistent son”
No mention is made of any preexistent son.
147. Psalm 109:25 “ridiculed”
David is talking of his own suffering. This is not a prophetic prediction.
148. Psalm 110:1 “son of David”
See #48
149. Psalm 110:1 “to ascend to the right hand of the Father”
No mention is made of an “ascension”. Israel herself is supported by God’s right hand while He destroys their enemies (Isaiah 41:10).
150. Psalm 110:1 “David’s son called Lord”
The word for “lord” used in this passage denotes an earthly lord (as in 1samuel 24:8) rather than the divine Lord.
151. The missionary tract skips #151 – see #61 and #158
152. Psalm 110:4 “a priest after Melchizedek’s order”
David and his seed are priests in the sense that Melchizedek was a priest; teaching and administering justice in the city of Jerusalem.
https://yourphariseefriend.wordpress.com/2013/01/17/psalm-110/
153. Psalm 112:4 “his character – compassionate, gracious, et al”
Not a prophetic prediction. The passage describes the righteousness of all who truly fear God.
154. Psalm 118:17,18 “Messiah’s resurrection assured”
No mention is made of Messiah or a resurrection.
155. Psalm 118:22,23 “the rejected stone is head of the corner”
Not a prophetic prediction. This Psalm refers to David himself as well as to the people of Israel.
156. Psalm 118:26a “the blessed one presented to Israel”
Not a prophetic prediction. Rather this verse is the greeting that would be used to greet the pilgrims when they arrived at the Temple.
157. Psalm 118:26b “to come while the Temple is still standing”
Not a prophetic prediction. Furthermore this verse addresses a plural group not a single individual.
158. The missionary tract skips # 158 – see #61 and #151
159. Psalm 132:11 “the seed of David 9the fruit of his body)”
See # 48
160. Psalm 129:3 “he was scourged”
This Psalm explicitly speaks of Israel.
161. Psalm 138:1-6 “the supremacy of David’s seed amazes kings”
The Psalm is speaking of the kings praising God; not the scion of David’s seed.
162. Psalm 147:3,6 “the earthly ministry of christ described”
This Psalm speaks of God’s kindness.
163. Proverbs 1:23 “he will send the spirit of God”
Not a prophetic prediction. This verse is establishing the authority for the Book of Proverbs itself.
164. Proverbs 8:23 “foreordained from everlasting”
Not a prophetic prediction. This passage speaks of God’s wisdom as is evident from verse 1 of this chapter.
165. Song of Solomon 5:16 “the altogether lovely one”
This is talking of God.
166. Isaiah 2:3 “He shall teach the nations”
This is talking about God teaching the nations during a time of universal peace.
167. Isaiah 2:4 “He shall judge among the nations”
See #166
168. Isaiah 6:1 “when Isaiah saw His glory”
Isaiah saw the glory of God.
169. Isaiah 6:8 “the one sent by God”
This is Isaiah himself as is obvious from the context.
170. Isaiah 6:9-10 “parables fall on deaf ears”
This is a prophecy about Isaiah’s own ministry.
171. Isaiah 6:9-12 “blinded to christ and deaf to his words”
See #170
172. Isaiah 7:14 “to be born of a virgin”
No mention made of a virgin and the prophecy was to be fulfilled in the times of King Ahaz who died many centuries before Jesus was born.
173. Isaiah 7:14 “to be Emmanuel – God with us”
This was an encouragement to King Ahaz that he and his people will survive the onslaught of the Arameans and subsequently the Assyrians. The child was named Emmanuel as a sign of God’s favor to the Judean kingdom.
174. Isaiah 8:8 “called Emmanuel”
See # 173
175. Isaiah 8:14 “a stone of stumbling, a rock of offense”
This prophecy was fulfilled in Hezekiah’s time during the Assyrian invasion as is evident from the context.
176. Isaiah 9:1,2 “his ministry to begin in Galilee”
This refers to the invasion of the Assyrian king which began in Galilee.
177. Isaiah 9:6 “a child born”
This refers to King Hezekiah.
https://yourphariseefriend.wordpress.com/2012/02/08/fifth-response-to-dalton-lifsey-isaiah-956-67/
https://yourphariseefriend.wordpress.com/2012/02/07/thomas-on-isaiah-95-6/
178. Isaiah 9:6 “a son given – deity”
See # 177. No mention is made of the “deity” of the child.
179. Isaiah 9:6 “declared to be the son of God with power”
See #177. No mention is made of “son of God”
180. Isaiah 9:6 “the wonderful one, Peleh”
See #177.
181. Isaiah 9:6 “the counselor, Yaatz”
See #177.
182. Isaiah 9:6 “the mighty God, E-l Gibor”
See #177. The literal translation of Hezekiah’s name is “the might of God”. The point of this prophecy is that God’s might will be manifested in the times of Hezekiah.
183. Isaiah 9:6 “the everlasting Father, Avi Adth”
See #177. The point of this prophecy is that God’s sovereignty as Master of time will be manifested in Hezekiah’s time.
184. Isaiah 9:6 “the Prince of Peace, Sar Shalom”
See #177.
185. Isaiah 9:7 “to establish an everlasting kingdom”
This is talking of the throne of David to which the Christian Jesus has no claim (see #48).
186. Isaiah 9:7 “his character – just”
See #177.
187. Isaiah 9:7 “no end to his government, throne, peace”
The phrase translated here as “no end” is the same phrase used in Isaiah 2:7 where it is clear that the intent is a great abundance as opposed to literal eternity.
188. Isaiah 11:1 “called a Nazarene – the branch, Netzer”
No one is called a Nazarene in this passage. This passage refers to a scion from the house of David who will rule over a world at peace. Jesus was not from the house of David (see #48) and he did not rule over a world at peace. There is no way to claim that Jesus fulfilled this prophecy.
189. Isaiah 11:1 “a rod out of Jesse – son of Jesse”
See #188
190. Isaiah 11:2 “anointed one by the spirit”
See #188
191. Isaiah 11:2 “his character – wisdom, knowledge, et al”
See #188
192. Isaiah 11:3 “he would know their thoughts”
See #188
193. Isaiah 11:4 “judge in righteousness”
See #188.
194. Isaiah 11:4 “judges with the sword of his mouth”
See #188
195. Isaiah 11:5 “character: righteous & faithful”
See #188
196. Isaiah 11:10 “the gentiles seek him”
See #188
197. Isaiah 12:2 “called Yeshua – Yeshua”
No one is called “Yeshua” in this passage.
198. Isaiah 22:22 “the one given all authority to govern”
This is referring to Elyakim; a faithful servant of the house of David as the prophet explicitly declares (verse 20).
199. Isaiah 25:8 “the resurrection predicted”
This is referring to the comfort of Israel as the verse makes clear.
200. Isaiah 26:19 “the power of resurrection predicted”
This is referring to the resurrection of those faithful to God as the context makes clear; not the resurrection of one lone individual.
201. Isaiah 28:16 “the Messiah is the precious corner stone”
There is no reason to associate this prophecy with Jesus. The adjective “precious” is completely subjective.
202. Isaiah 28:16 “the sure foundation”
See #201
203. Isaiah 29:13 “he indicated hypocritical obedience to His word”
It is God speaking in this passage and it is not a prophetic prediction.
204. Isaiah 29:14 “the wise are confounded by the word”
The passage speaks of the wise being confounded but the passage does not say that they will be confounded through the word. In any case this passage is a rebuke to the Jews in Isaiah’s day and has nothing to do with Jesus.
205. Isaiah 32:2 “a refuge – a man shall be a hiding place”
This is talking about righteous Hezekiah. There is no reason to believe that Jesus fulfilled this prophecy.
206. Isaiah 35:4 “he will come and save you”
This is talking about God avenging the persecution of the Jewish people.
207. Isaiah 35:5-6 “to have a ministry of miracles”
The passage is talking about Israel’s redemption from exile (verse 10).
208. Isaiah 40:3,4 “preceded by a forerunner”
This is talking about the ultimate revelation of God’s glory (verse 5).
209. Isaiah 40:9 “behold your God”
This is talking about the God that Israel loved and hoped for throughout their exile not the god of their persecutors.
210. Isaiah 40:10 “he will come to reward”
See #209
211. Isaiah 40:11 “a shepherd – compassionate life-giver”
See #209
212. Isaiah 42:1-4 “the servant – as a faithful patient redeemer”
This passage is talking about the people of Israel and their King Messiah. There is nothing in this passage that Jesus can claim to have fulfilled.
https://yourphariseefriend.wordpress.com/2012/07/24/armor-bearers-isaiah-5211/
213. Isaiah 42:2 “meek and lowly”
There is nothing more haughty then claiming to be divine.
214. Isaiah 42:3 “he brings hope for the hopeless”
See # 212
215. Isaiah 42:4 “the nations shall wait on his teachings”
See # 212
216. Isaiah 42:6 “the light (salvation) of the Gentiles”
See #212
217. Isaiah 42:1,6 “his is a worldwide compassion”
See #212
218. Isaiah 42:7 “bind eyes opened”
This refers to Israel’s redemption from exile (as per verse 16)
219. Isaiah 43:11 “he is the only savior”
This is talking about the God that Israel bears witness to; not the god that Israel bears witness against.
220. Isaiah 44:3 “he will send the spirit of God”
This is God’s promise to Israel.
221. Isaiah 45:21-25 “he is the lord and savior”
This is talking about God Himself.
222. Isaiah 45:23 “he will be the judge”
See #221
223. Isaiah 46:9,10 “declares things not yet done”
This is talking about God.
224. Isaiah 48:12 “the first and the last”
This is talking about God.
225. Isaiah 48:16,17 “he came as a teacher”
The prophet is speaking here in the name of God concerning Israel’s return from Babylon.
226. Isaiah 49:1 “”called from the womb – his humanity”
This is talking about Israel and the prophet Isaiah.
https://yourphariseefriend.wordpress.com/2012/07/24/armor-bearers-isaiah-5211/
227. Isaiah 49:5 “a servant from the womb”
See # 226
228. Isaiah 49:6 “he will restore Israel”
See #226
229. Isaiah 49:6 “a salvation for Israel”
See #226
230. Isaiah 49:6 “he is the light of the Gentiles”
See #226. It is interesting to note that despite 2000 years of Jesus’ teaching it is still Isaiah’s words of hope for humanity that are written on the side of the UN building and it is still Isaiah’s metaphor of the wolf lying with the lamb that is most commonly used to describe the era of the real Messiah.
231. Isaiah 49:6 “he is a salvation to the ends of the earth”
See #226. The prophet’s role is to announce God’s salvation to the ends of the earth.
232. Isaiah 49:7 “he is despised of the nation”
See #226
233. Isaiah 50:3 “heaven is clothed in black at his humiliation”
The passage says nothing about anyone’s humiliation.
234. Isaiah 50:4 “he is a learned counselor for the weary”
This is referring to the prophet.
235. Isaiah 50:5 “the servant bound willingly to obedience”
See #234
236. Isaiah 50:6a “I gave my back to the smiters”
See #234
237. Isaiah 50:6b “he was smitten on the cheeks”
See #234. Incidentally; the passage speaks of the prophet’s beard being pulled at, not that he was smitten on the cheek.
238. Isaiah 50:6c “he was spat upon”
See #234
239. Isaiah 52:7 “published good tidings on the mountains”
This speaks of the messenger bringing Israel the good tidings of her redemption from exile.
240. Isaiah 52:13 “the servant exalted”
This speaks of Israel’s exaltation at the time of her redemption from exile.
https://yourphariseefriend.wordpress.com/2013/01/17/isaiah-53/
https://yourphariseefriend.wordpress.com/2013/01/17/isaiah-53/
https://yourphariseefriend.wordpress.com/2011/03/11/isaiah-53-teaches-that-jesus-is-not-the-messiah/
https://yourphariseefriend.wordpress.com/2011/11/02/some-thoughts-on-isaiah-53-by-thomas/
241. Isaiah 52:14 “the servant shockingly abused”
See #240
242. Isaiah 52:15 “nations startled by the message of the servant”
See #240
243. Isaiah 52:15 “his blood shed sprinkles nations”
See #240. The passage says nothing about the servant’s blood shed; in fact the passage does not mention blood altogether.
244. Isaiah 53:1 “his people would not believe him”
See #240. The passage does not say that “his people” would not believe him. The passage speaks of the kings of nation having a difficult time believing the report of the exaltation of Israel (see Micah 7:10,16).
245. Isaiah 53:2 “appearance of an ordinary man”
See #240. The appearance of the servant is NOT that of an ordinary man. Those who see him consider him subhuman.
246. Isaiah 53:3a “despised”
See #240
247. Isaiah 53:3b “rejected”
See #240
248. Isaiah 53:3c “great sorrow and grief”
See #240
249. Isaiah 53:3d “men hide from being associated with him”
See #240
250. Isaiah 53:4a “he would have a healing ministry”
See #240. No word is mentioned about a ministry.
251. Isaiah 53:4b “thought to be cursed by God”
See #240
252. Isaiah 53:5a “bears penalty for mankind’s iniquities”
See #240
253. Isaiah 53:5b “his sacrifice provides peace between man and God”
See #240. No mention is made of a sacrifice and no mention is made of peace between man and God. The prophet speaks of peace in a general sense without specifying between which two parties the peace is maintained.
254. Isaiah 53:5c “his sacrifice would heal man of sin”
See #240. In any case; the prophet does not speak of “healing man from sin”. Healing is mentioned in a general sense.
255. Isaiah 53:6a “he would be the sin-bearer for all mankind”
See #240
256. Isaiah 53:6b “God’s will that he bear sin for all mankind”
See #240
257. Isaiah 53:7a “oppressed and afflicted”
See #240
258. Isaiah 53:7b “silent before his accusers”
See #240
259. Isaiah 53:7c “”sacrificial lamb”
See #240. No mention is made of a “sacrifice”.
260. Isaiah 53:8a “confined and persecuted”
See #240
261. Isaiah 53:8b “he would be judged”
See #240
262. Isaiah 53:8c “killed”
See #240
263. Isaiah 53:8d “dies for the sins of the world”
See #240
264. Isaiah 53:9a “buried in a rich man’s grave”
See #240. Actually the prophet says that the servant is put to death with the rich.
265. Isaiah 53:9b “innocent and had done no violence”
See #240. The prophet says that the servant is innocent from the violence that he was accused of; not that he had never done violence.
266. Isaiah 53:9c “no deceit in his mouth”
See #240. The prophet does not say that the servant never had deceit in his mouth; rather the prophet says that the servant is not being punished for deception that he actually committed.
267. Isaiah 53:10a “God’s will that he die for mankind”
See #240. The passage simply says that it was God’s will to crush the servant with sickness. The passage does not say why God chose to bring this affliction upon the servant.
268. Isaiah 53:10b “an offering for sin”
See #240. The verse says nothing about an offering for sin. The passage speaks of the servant acknowledging his own guilt.
269. Isaiah 53:10c “resurrected and live forever”
See #240. The passage says nothing about a resurrection and nothing about living forever.
270. Isaiah 53:10d “he would prosper”
See #240. The passage actually says that the servant will see physical progeny; something that Jesus never merited to see.
271. Isaiah 53:11a “God fully satisfied with his suffering”
See #240. The prophet says nothing about God’s satisfaction. The verse speaks of the servant enjoying the fruit of his labor.
272. Isaiah 53:11b “the servant will justify man”
See #240.
273. Isaiah 53:11c “the sin bearer for all mankind”
See #240
274. Isaiah 53:12a “exalted by God because of his sacrifice”
See #240. Note the servant is exalted because of his sacrifice not because of his alleged divine nature.
275. Isaiah 53:12b “he would give up his life to save mankind”
See #240. The passage does not say why the servant gives up his life.
276. Isaiah 53:12c “numbered with the transgressors”
See #240
277. Isaiah 53:12d “sin bearer for all mankind”
See #240
278. Isaiah 53:12e intercede to God on behalf of mankind”
See #240
279. Isaiah 55:3 “resurrected by God”
This passage says nothing about a resurrection. It is talking to a plural group not to a lone individual.
280. Isaiah 55:4a “a witness”
This is talking about David and his righteous descendant – see #48.
281. Isaiah 55:4b “he is a leader and a commander”
See #280
282. Isaiah 55:5 “God would glorify him”
This is talking about Israel.
283. Isaiah 59:16a “intercessor between man and God”
The verse actually says that there is no intercessor.
284. Isaiah 59:16b “he would come to provide salvation”
This is talking about God saving Israel and avenging them from their persecutors.
285. Isaiah 59:20 “he would come to Zion as their redeemer”
This is talking about the real Messiah. There is no way that one can claim that Jesus fulfilled this prophecy.
286. Isaiah 60:1-3 “he would show light to the gentiles”
This is talking about Israel clearly and explicitly.
287. Isaiah 61:1a “the spirit of God upon him”
The prophet.
288. Isaiah 61:1b “the Messiah will preach the good news”
See #287
289. Isaiah 61:1c “provide freedom from the bondage of sin”
See #287. The prophet announces freedom to the captives of exile; no mention is made of sin.
290. Isaiah 61:1-2a “proclaim a period of grace”
See #287
291. Jeremiah 23:5-6 “descendant of David”
See #48
292. Jeremiah 23:5-6 “the Messiah will be both God and man”
See #48. The passage declares that the Messiah will be called by the name: “the Lord is our righteousness” just as the city of Jerusalem is called by the exact same name (Jeremiah 33:16).
293. Jeremiah 31:22 “born of a virgin”
The verse says nothing about anyone being born of a virgin.
294. Jeremiah 31:31 “the Messiah will be the new covenant”
The passage says nothing about the Messiah being the new covenant.
https://yourphariseefriend.wordpress.com/2011/11/09/some-thoughtso-n-jeremiah-31-by-thomas/
295. Jeremiah 33:14-15 “descendant of David”
See #48
296. Ezekiel 34:23-24 “descendant of David”
See #48
297. Ezekiel 37:24-25 “descendant of David”
See #48
298. Daniel 2:44-45 “the stone that shall break the kingdoms”
This is talking about Israel’s rule in the Messianic era.
299. Daniel 7:13-14a “he shall ascend into heaven”
This vision is interpreted by the angel himself as a reference to Israel (verses 18, 27).
https://yourphariseefriend.wordpress.com/2010/11/23/daniel-713/
300. Daniel 7:13-14b “highly exalted”
See #299
301. Daniel 7:13-14c “his dominion would be everlasting”
See #299
302. Daniel 9:24a “to make an end to sin”
This is referring to Israel’s suffering in exile.
https://yourphariseefriend.wordpress.com/2013/01/17/daniel-924-27/
303. Daniel 9:24a “to make reconciliation for iniquity”
See #302
304. Daniel 9:24b “he would be holy”
This is talking of the Temple.
305. Daniel 9:25 “483 years to the exact day”
The prophet speaks of two separate periods; one of 49 years and one of 434 years. The calculations made by the missionaries have no basis in reality outside of the missionary desire to shoehorn Jesus into the time frame of this prophecy.
306. Daniel 9:26a “cut off”
This is referring to the last high priest that served in the Second Temple.
307. Daniel 9:26b “die for the sins of the world”
The prophet gives no reason for the purpose of the “cutting off”.
308. Daniel 9:26c “killed before the destruction of the Temple”
The prophet actually says that this “cutting off” will be concurrent with the destruction of the temple; not “before”.
309. Daniel 10:5-6 “Messiah in a glorified state”
This is talking of the angel Gabriel that Daniel sees in a vision.
310. Hosea 11:1 “he would be called out of Egypt”
This is not a prophetic prediction; this refers to Israel’s redemption from Egypt in the time of the exodus.
311. Hosea 13:14 “he would defeat death”
This is part of God’s rebuke to the Northern kingdom. The prophet is explaining how God would have redeemed them from death itself had they obeyed him. Paul’s quote from this passage in 1Corinthians 15:55-57 is a mistranslation as well as a wrenching of the verse out of context.
312. Joel 2:32 “offer salvation to all mankind”
This is talking about God’s salvation in the end of time.
313. Jonah 1:17 “death and resurrection of christ”
This is not a prophetic prediction it is a narrative describing what happened to Jonah.
314. Micah 5:2a “born in Bethlehem”
This passage does not mention the birthplace of the Messiah; it mentions the clan to which he belongs – see #48.
315. Micah 5:2b “ruler in Israel”
This is talking about the true Messiah who will actually rule in a practical sense.
316. Micah 5:2c “from everlasting”
This means that God’s plan to bring the Messiah goes back to the beginning of time.
317. Haggai 2:6-9 “he would visit the Second Temple”
This is talking about the honor that will be given to God in the setting of the Second Temple.
318. Haggai 2:23 “descendant of Zerubbabel”
This is referring to Zerubavel himself; not his descendant. In any case one who denies having a human father cannot claim lineage from Zerubavel (see #48).
319. Zechariah 3:8 “God’s servant”
This is talking about Zerubavel not to a person who saw himself as equal to God.
320. Zechariah 6:12-13 “priest and king”
This prophecy refers to two separate people; the high priest and Zerubavel. This person (Zerubavel) is described as one who builds the Temple an activity never attributed to Jesus.
https://yourphariseefriend.wordpress.com/2013/01/17/zechariah-69-15/
321. Zechariah 9:9a “greeted with rejoicing in Jerusalem”
This is talking about a king who will rule in a time when war is no more.
322. Zechariah 9:9b “beheld as a king”
This is a king not merely someone who is “beheld” as a king. See #321
323. Zechariah 9:9c “the Messiah would be just”
See #321 and #69
324. Zechariah 9:9d “the Messiah will bring salvation”
See #321
325. Zechariah 9:9e “the Messiah would be humble”
See #321 and #213
326. Zechariah 9:9f “presented to Jerusalem riding on a donkey”
See #321
327. Zechariah 10:4 “the cornerstone”
This passage is talking about the victory that God will grant the children of Judah and Ephraim in battle (verse 5).
328. Zechariah 11:4-6a “at his coming, Israel to have unfit leaders”
This passage says nothing about the coming of the Messiah.
329. Zechariah 11:4-6b “rejection causes God to remove His protection”
The passage does not say why it is that God is removing His protection.
330. Zechariah 11:4-6c “rejected in favor of another king”
There is no rejection spoken of in these verses. Verse 8 speaks of a spurning of God Himself.
331. Zechariah 11:7 “ministry to the “poor”, the believing remnant”
This is talking about God shepherding those loyal to Him.
332. Zechariah 11:8a “unbelief forces Messiah to reject them”
This is talking about Israel’s spurning of God thus bringing upon themselves God’s punishment.
333. Zechariah 11:8b “despised”
See #332
334. Zechariah 11:9 “stops ministering those who rejected him”
See #332
335. Zechariah 11:10-11a “rejection causes God to remove protection”
See #332
336. Zechariah 11:10-11b “the Messiah would be God”
No mention is made of Messiah.
337. Zechariah 11:12-13a “betrayed for 30 pieces of silver”
No one is “betrayed” in this passage. The thirty pieces of silver are the pay of the shepherd.
338. Zechariah 11:12-13b “rejected”
No one is rejected in these verses.
339. Zechariah 11:12-13c “thirty pieces of silver cast into the house of the Lord”
Not a prophetic prediction. The symbolic pay of the shepherd is thrown into the house of the Lord.
340. Zechariah 11:12-13d “the Messiah would be God”
No mention is made of Messiah.
341. Zechariah 12:10a “the Messiah’s body will be pierced”
This stabbing takes place in the context of a battle which pits all the nations of the world against Jerusalem (verse 9).
https://yourphariseefriend.wordpress.com/2013/01/17/zechariah-1210/
342. Zechariah 12:10b “the Messiah will be both God and man”
No mention is made of Messiah.
343. Zechariah 12:10c “the Messiah would be rejected”
No mention is made of anyone being rejected.
344. Zechariah 13:7a “God’s will he die for mankind”
It is the enemies of God who are being killed here and no reason is given for their death.
345. Zechariah 13:7b “a violent death”
See #344
346. Zechariah 13:7c “both God and man”
No one in this verse is both God and man. The passage refers to God’s enemies as “the man who sees himself as my competitor”.
347. Zechariah 13:7d “Israel scattered as a result of rejecting him”
This is talking of the scattering of the enemies of God; not of Israel. And again; no one is rejected in this passage.
348. Zechariah 14:4 “he would return to the Mt. of Olives”
This passage says that God’s presence will be manifest on the Mount of Olives; not that He will “return”.
349. Malachi 3:1a “messenger to prepare the way for Messiah”
The messenger prepares the way for God’s presence to be manifest in the Temple.
https://yourphariseefriend.wordpress.com/2013/01/17/malachi-31-4/
350. Malachi 3:1b “sudden appearance at the Temple”
This is talking about God’s manifestation in the Temple.
351. Malachi 3:1c “messenger of the new covenant”
See #349.
352. Malachi 4:5 “forerunner in spirit of Elijah”
This passage tells us that the forerunner will be Elijah himself; not someone who never claimed to be Elijah.
353. Malachi 4:6 “Forerunner will turn many to righteousness”
See #352.
As we have seen; the vast majority of these “prophecies” are not prophetic predictions at all. Some of them are simply fanciful translations and interpretations that have no basis outside of the missionary imagination. Many of them clearly cannot apply to Jesus for simple grammatical and contextual reasons. Others cannot apply to Jesus as he is portrayed in Christian theology (i.e. sinless, without human father). Some of these prophecies were clearly not fulfilled by Jesus (such as those which speak of an age of universal peace).
It is not that there is a dearth of prophetic material that can help us identify the Messiah and the Messianic age.
https://yourphariseefriend.wordpress.com/2010/12/21/letter-to-sy-about-messiah/
https://yourphariseefriend.wordpress.com/2010/09/05/the-polar-opposite/
The problem seems to be when the approach to Scripture is dictated by the desire to “find” someone hiding between the lines. Instead of asking: “Of whom speaketh the prophet”, try reading Scripture with the question: “what is the prophet trying to tell me”.
You may find this list of passages helpful.
https://yourphariseefriend.wordpress.com/2010/08/31/1000-verses/
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Thank You
Yisroel C. Blumenthal
1000 Verses - a project of Judaism Resources 
Christians point to the Torah and the Prophets to prove that Jesus is the Messiah etc. But the Torah and or the Prophets NEVER say we have to accept a Messiah into ones heart to have salvation etc. The Torah and or the Prophets NEVER say we have to know a Messiah as G-d, that a Messiah might be born of a virgin, that we have to ask a Messiah to forgive us of our sins etc. The Christian doctrine is not in the Torah or Prophets.
You mention in your book that “like the aposotle Paul and all apostles in the New Testment, I experienced the rapture or being caught up (harpazo) to Paradise where I too knew the man (Jesus)”.
When did all the other apostles get caught up in this rapture??
Dod you believe Jesus is G-d??
“You may find this list of passages helpful” – I do find it helpful, thank’s a lot!
Yvonne
It seems that you had a personal experience – do you not realize that according to Scripture personal experiences can be misleading – read 1Kings 22:23 – how do you measure your personal experience? How would you measure soemone else’s personal experience? Do you realize that God established testimony through which we can evaluate these experiences?
I agree completely that I measure all this by my personal experience but my experience was so profound and complete that I related to all the prophets and writers of the Bible who wrote about this very same experience happening to them. In other words, the experience happened to the prophets who passed them down in ORAL tradition. The experience removes the ‘mind’ (experienced as Israel coming out of Egypt) and this leaves the heart or “emptiness” revealed within the tohu and bohu from the beginning of creation (bara). Here everything is rebuilt in us through the actual prophetic revelation of what the Bible writers meant when they said ‘lest God be the builder of the house (heart) the workmen (egos) work in vain. Here the mind is useless to the understanding of the Bible and if it were not for the oracle within us, the heart speaks to us or the “light” in the heart (neshama) is lit and speaks through the mouth: It is an incredible and very fearful experience that renews both the heart and mind, hence the last days where the word is written in the heart and mind from above inward. Everything written makes sense to the one having this experience. I am not asking you to believe however…..only consider that if it can happen to one, it can happen to many and the time of Mashiach is here: What do others have to do? Become very sincere, very very sincere in wanting to experience the truth (emet) and the emmunah and ratzon/will that comes from above into your heart……because it bypasses the mind to renew it, hence Israel (heart) becomes a light to the nations (mind they are exiled within):
Yvonne
Does this mean that your experience is “beyond” measuring? – How can you expect someone else to hear experience? how can we gauge your experience?
good question and here is what I suggest if you want to measure it; 1) you would challange anything I said that sounded fishy or off and I would show you how it is written down over and over and over again since on a ‘sod’ level, the Bible repeats itself in every chapter as to the whole experience in one chapter: this is one way: 2) you could ask me specific questions about questionable interpretations: I would have to prove them scripturally or they are not true for you: I understand this
Yvonne
No – That is not what the Bible says – Deuteronomy 13:2 clearly tells us to reject any prophet or dreamer of dreams who points us to a different worship than we were taught by God Himself – yes – I know that you can reinterpret anything and everything to fit anything and everything – but it is our responsibility as a witness nation to judge according to the understanding that God Himself granted us
Do you recognize our (the Jewish people) responsibility as a witness nation?
yes
Yvonne
I find it interesting that you are trying to somehow fit the references to Jesus – instead of working on the 353 references – why don’t you work on the 1000 verses which tell us that Jesus is not who Christianity claims him to be?
I thought I was doing that but I will leave you with this; if you don’t relate to anything I said in response to the questions as I felt moved to answer, then not to worry: Im just doing what all prophets have done in the past: Give my witness/eduwth about my experience of Messiah: Be assured I have had less than a handful of Christians who were even interested in this so Im not surprised anymore after 20 years. Ezekiel is told he would be rejected too but God said when they too had this same experience they would know that they did have a prophet among them; I am no longer worried if others don’t understand; after all these many years of explaining through both the Torah and New Testament how Messiah is revealed on the inner level, inner dimension, I accept that it is not me who reveals him; he just revealed himself to me:) he will do the same for others in their hour and visitation: Thank you for not being rude or trying to hurt my feelings: for that I bless you:) Keep doing what you do and in due time, you will understand all things.
Yvonne
I find it ironic that you feel this way. My people have been comissioned by God Himself to testify for the past several thousand years – Isaiah 43:10 – some people have listened – but the followers of the one who you deify have been in the forefront of the battle to dismiss our testimony as that of “legalists” “hypocrites” “no heart” etc.
The tide is slowly turning – I suggest – you put your personal experience aside for a few days and read the Bible with the sense of honesty that God planted in your heart when He created you – ask yourself – who are the Jewish people married to? do they have any way of identifying their Groom? what is their love based on? – then look at your experience in the light you find
You can contact me at yourphariseefriend@gmail.com if you want to continue this conversation
It is also true that the heart of a virgin woman denied direct (or indirect) teachings or commands and went with her feelings (her heart & what she was experiencing) and followed a false prophet. A false prophet can deceive many or maybe only a handful after many years. They always claim they “experienced God”, but no prophet sent by God fails the mission given; they are not rejected & thereby forgotten. A witness serves no purpose, if they fail to convince others with “clear evidence” over the evidence presented by others. Subjective “experiences” or “mystical interpretations” or “scripture twisting” may intrigue those fascinated by “mysteries”, but “dangling a fruit” or “a messiah” before one and calling it wisdom or “true understanding” or “”knowing & being like God”, does not convince those whom God was revealed by God’s simple, plain, straight-forward Words (perhaps beside their own over-whelming “experiences”). If God reveals, let God reveal and not a man or woman with “pretty” or “deep” words which always seem to contradict the Words plainly revealed already by God. God who wants us to understand all things, does not hide those things in the “sod” but upon “plain dirt”. The Truth we NEED to see is plainly visible, not hidden or only hinted at by clues or kept in secret from us “clueless ones”, so that only the self-appointed prophets, bright & very rare, elite Gnostics can see “the light”. The True Messiah that we hope for has not come for all will know & none need guess. In the meantime, God, not an image of a man, is ALL we need in our hearts. In fact, God needs no messiah or “son”, if we know God.
As a “goy”, I see that it is the “goy” who have a greater misunderstanding of what Jews and their Rabbis understand and know. It is we who misunderstand the Word of God, so what we “mean” has little to offer “the Jews”. As someone said “the Jews know the Father and can tell us much about Him, but they don’t know the “son” which we can share with them”. If you “know the Father as YOUR Father”, you are the Son or Daughter of God, and there is no need for another “son”. Only those who deny the clear & plain truth or are blind to the “Light of God, their Father” by being “entranced by their own visions or ideas” will need a servant Elijah to “turn their hearts”. BTW, according to the revelation to John of Patmos, the messiah will not come in the name that you know; the messiah will not be named Jesus or Yeshua or Iesous.
“Manifesting” God in their life or heart is the wrong term; a manifestation is a sign of idolatry and a belief of pagans. As a poet (i.e., “mystic”), I see the error that mystics (pseudo-kabbalists, etc.) make or trap that they can fall into. They tend to invent their own “reality”. They tell us what is in their mind, what they imagine. Experiences is what they allow themselves to think, which is not something they can actually know or what they actually experienced. They each interpret things differently (when they are not intrigued by another’s “experiences” or ideas or if they follow a teacher). The symbol is not the “thing”; it may not even be the “shadow of the thing”, but only a very poor analogy or metaphor. A poor replacement for the “thing” or idea; an inadequate attempt to explain the thing or idea (or else, Jesus is the crooked serpent that needs to be raised up or he is the “old dead man Adam”, or the one who sold his soul to the “devil” (an invention of Babylon, the harlot) to gain a kingdom on earth until Moshiach comes? Whatever was written about Jesus happens to the heart of Babylon or Egypt. He is known as a “lamb of god” for that is a belief of Egypt. Egypt’s god was killed, the last plague, and Israel was released from the chains to head to the Promised Land, which is one step back to the Garden. That is the Sod; test it against reality which is the plain, clear Words of God. Your interpretations are more absurd; more off the track. If you need a chart full of symbols & lines back and forth from one idea to another, you wind up with “spaghetti code”. That type of code makes lousy computer programs which are hard to debug & which soon crashes. That type of “mystic” code makes for poor theology as well. Don’t blame the “users” for their disappointment. The symbols help to explain the real things, the common things, not the other way around. True Sod can not reject what the plain, peshat word says. Humans can invent & they can lie; it was not God who mis-spoke & hide truth, so that only a few could see.
For one, Eve represents all of humankind, not David, not Israel. Her “seed” (and Adam’s) includes both Cain & Abel and all who are not Israel. The serpent isn’t satan and satan is not the same as the devil, who is a god to Babylon. Babylon & Egypt can have an evil god who poses as a threat to their supreme god or gods or sons of god, but Israel chose a God, who plainly chooses them as a “son”. This “fallen man”, “dead Adam” (and all those “dead souls” who follow after him, including Jesus. Should Jesus be called a clone or maybe half-a-man; completely fallen or half fallen?), was an ancestor to some who God said you are “my people”. They were good enough for God, so why disagree with God and follow your own wisdom? God said to fallen people, “be ye Holy as The Lord, your God is Holy”. Without Jesus; without a messiah. Worthless, sinful, fallible people can be Holy. That is if you listen to God and not to fallible humans, who appoint themselves as prophets despite the many warnings is Jeremiah and despite the warning in Deut 18, about false prophets, using magic & tricks & speaking pretty and “deep”.
Rather than me not understanding most of your points, I am quite familiar with most of them. I too am an “old believer” of Jesus (or rather I once was before I began to read the plain words of the Bible and in the context of the times of the writer and the intended audience). I studied the NT perhaps too much? More than 20 years. I heard many arguments and many interpretations from all points of view. So I know about Jesus between the 2 thieves & the separations of the pieces, the animal soul, the “seed”, etc. Strange metaphors and distortion of clear messages of earlier texts. My example of Jesus as the “serpent lifted up” came from John 3:14. The point was about how we can come up with all sorts of hypotheses and theories (some might call them “revelations”) based on a selective reading of verses, then promoting certain “themes” or “favorite ideas” in our use of metaphor & analogies, and then on linking those verses and the ideas that we read into them, to create relationships where none really exists. I didn’t mention the method of “Sophists”, but as I was reading I was reminded of the Christian Gnostics who delighted in secrets & mysteries; the more complicated the explanations of the meanings of “the Word”, the wiser they were & the greater the revelation they thought they received from God or Plato’s Logos, who was Jesus to them. But it was their ideas, not the plain meanings of the words, that they taught.
My experiences include very few “spiritual battles”. I confronted God on a few issues when I was young, a long time ago, but I learned from that. I received revelations; some things that are not based on “my beliefs or faith or wishes”, but concrete things that I KNOW beyond any shadow of doubt. Who is there to really battle against, beside God or yourself? I love & can handle people, so no “faith” fights there. If I insulted, maybe your perception was wrong, because I just thought you could handle other ideas. But I must say to you, that you insult many with your words, “like crooked Israel”, etc., while also using Eve (mother of all) as somehow only related to Israel (her “seed”, who are many & who are also Adam’s “seed)”. A big problem with metaphors, analogies, or symbols is that they are not the reality of things. The further you attempt to take them, the more absurd they get and the more contradiction & falsehood they become. I just wanted to oppose those insults with an opposite view & with tempering words that are also in the Bible.
Back to some of the ideas of the article & to some of the response to it, especially the “serpent”. There is an OT or Tanach view of what serpents are and there is a quite different view in the NT. Simple analysis proves that. There is one view of the adversary or haSatan (and no devil) in the Tanach and a quite different view of Satan in the NT, where demons abound in very large numbers and where even almighty God is plagued, even tormented(?), by some very evil spiritual force, called a “devil”. One way to defeat the “devil” is to not feed it’s ego, by minimizing its power to the point where one can deny its very existence. Why fear it, unless one thinks that God is that small & that weak to include & allow a devil in Heaven (or on tiny earth), or if one feels that perhaps God is not “your friend” & one is not a true “Child of God”?
Naaria
Re your “I began to read the plain words of the Bible and in the context of the times of the writer and the intended audience).” What is your view of the Jewish “four levels of meaning” of Torah?
At first, I was going to give a short 3 or 4 line answer, but that is “not me” and your question is so broad & the answer is so complicated. First, it matters little what my personal views are, since they are personal views and you might only get a “remez”, a hint of it. And then, commentary is valuable from several sources because it is commentary and not scripture or facts. Next, I was trained to read the Tanakh from a completely Christian perspective, whether as a modernist or as a student of early Christianity up to about the time of Augustine. Early and today, Christians read the “OT’ almost entirely as allegory. Basically, they (and me for decades) “read Jesus into” the “OT” and views angels and “anything good” as Jesus or “foreshadowing” Jesus/Yeshua and likewise the “bad” as satan or as part of blind or disobedient Israel & “the stubborn Jews” (not anti-Semitic, mind you). My first training & studies in “Torah” or in “PaRDeS” was from Christian pastors and from messianic Christologists & apologists, like Fructhenbaum, and from what I might call “Christian Kabbalists”. So, as you might guess or know, their reading is very goal-oriented toward seeing Jesus throughout the OT and attempting to “prove Jesus” or their messianic eschatology through their “4 levels of meaning” in the OT. In particular, the “remez or hints” and the “sod or secret”. These are goal-directed or biased reliances on ambiguous & subjective hints & secrets (a gnostic & Greek philosophical approach). Whereas, in my “Jewish” studies, I have found the Jewish commentators far more method oriented and far more objective.
My first true study of the “Jewish methods” was begun by reading the textbook by Simi Peters, “Learning to Read Midrash”. I read about the mashal and the nimshal and the petihta (using a verse to interpret another verse). As a network or systems thinker or big picture oriented (yet also very “nitty-gritty” or detail oriented), I find the early midrashim helpful in understanding the complexity of the bible and in seeing connections between the various biblical texts. In particular, the Jewish “Apocrypha” or “inter-testamental writings”, Philo’s & Josephus’s writings, and Pirke Avot & the Yerushalami texts helps me better understand both the Tanakh, the post-Tanakh period & the Talmud. Likewise, comparisons help to point out how the canonical & non-canonical Christian writings differ greatly from the Tanakh & from post- and pre-Talmud Jewish world-view.
I believe I favor the pshat method or a “plain, objective reading of the text” of the Tanach, which I think I can do, despite my in-grained Christian biases or “world-view”. Even if the pshat can reject some basic assuptions of the midrashic or drash homiletical method. So, I find myself favoring Maimonides or the Ibn Ezra over Rashi. And I see more light from Rashi than from Kabbalists. Perhaps, I would agree more with the Rashbam approach of deriving law and ethical instructions from midrash and using pshat for interpreting scripture and in using rational and scientific means, such as linguistics & knowledge of history. Remez or “hints” might be entertaining like some games and “secrets” are only secrets if they remain secret and their mystery may also titillate one, but I believe I gave up on my “mystic ways” years ago, when I seen that that neither accorded with nature and the world around me or with the Tanakh nor with my “inner environment”.
Thank you Naaria
I enjoyed your overview very much.
So, even with “Jewish” Kabbalah the point is to understand God, the creator, more through the words of Tanakh. Whereas in “new-age pseudo-Kabbalah” or “messianic/Christian Kabbalah’, the point is not to understand God or reality better, but to try to prove their own philosophy – to reinforce “humanism” or “man’s religion”(including that about a man-god named Jesus) over that of God, the Creator of All.
the human mind can’t understand God so it has to be trained through stories and ideas the mind can consider: When God appears, he does so through the ‘heart’ hence he bypasses the mind completely which is the potter shattering the vessel of vanity (Job sits scratching himself with that broken vessel (his mind) all around him: (klipot): the mind then takes its rightful place…….below the heart (inversion) and the heart (Israel) becomes the light to the nations (new creation): Till the inversion happens, the mind is in control (harlot) of the spirit and directs it where it wants to go: Once Israel (heart) is opened, pierced, circumcised by the revelation of Messiah the sword that pierces and severs the heart in two, then the heart experiences the true mourning of the soul and its correction:
Naaria
“So, even with “Jewish” Kabbalah the point is to understand God, the creator, more through the words of Tanakh.”
Say the rabbis told us that (God saw that) “it was good” in the creation story of Genesis refers to the Good Desire, and God only said “very good” after he had created the Evil Desire (yetser hara), would that be an example of how the Oral Torah (the Kabbalah and much other rabbinic literature) helps to interpret the “words if Tanakh?”
let me say when it comes to interpretation of the Bible (doesn’t matter what part of it), one can not analyze the truth from the position of the mind because it is the mind that is corrupt: The heart is wicked too so where does one get the ‘power’ to interpret? Here the study of the works of the writers is to bring one to the ‘end’ of the minds ability to work, hence to come to the desperation of the heart so it can “TURN” (repent) towards the creator who will INTERPRET the meaning to your heart and this new heart then INFORMS your mind so it can be established together with the heart: All the study in the world is to destroy the mind and not fix it; why? Only a broken spirit (mind no longer works) opens one up to the truth of the creators guidance within it, hence it is written God FORMS the SPIRIT of MAN within him: Man=heart that is being FORMED into the image and likeness of the creator or the tzelem (Zeir Anpin) for his nukvah (mind/malkut):
You misunderstand. It seems you believe certain writings, certain commentaries are either to be taken 100% or 0%. Enlightening commentary of Torah or Tanach can come from any source. So I can accept some commentary of Torah from the NT or certain parts of certain writing from certain Christian writers. Do you reject all commentary by all “Jewish Rabbis” and do you accept all the commentary by all “non-rabbis” who believe in Jesus (even from the Book of Mormon or from Catholic writers & priests who you once agreed with a few years ago)?
So you misunderstand my point about Kabbalah about it being primarily about God, Creator or “Father”, which is a different viewpoint & focus that perhaps of “Christian Kabbalists” whose focus is primarily on Jesus, both the “spiritual & divine” Jesus and the created & fleshy Jesus. Should you reject all Christian commentary (including the NT) because of commentaries & views of non-Jewish Kabbalists or Roman Catholics or Mormon writers or Jehovah Witnesses who believe in Jesus & in accepting the NT as holy scripture?
Naaria, I think you are replying to me. If so let’s stay with “very good” and the yetser hara. Here is the specific quotation. Would you say that it is only one opinion, which may be wrong?
And God saw all that He had made, and found it very good. And there was evening, and there was morning, the sixth day.” (Genesis 1:31)―Midrash: Rabbi Nahman said in Rabbi Samuel’s name: “Behold, it was good” refers to the Good Desire; “And behold, it was very good” refers to the Evil Desire. (It only says “very good” after man was created with both the good and bad inclinations, in all other cases it only says “and God saw that it was good”) Can then the Evil Desire be very good? That would be extraordinary! But without the Evil Desire, however, no man would build a house, take a wife and beget children; and thus said Solomon: “Again, I considered all labour and all excelling in work, that it is a man’s rivalry with his neighbour.” (Kohelet [Ecclesiastes] IV, 4) (Genesis Rabbah 9:7, translation from Soncino Publications).
Well, other commentators believe the “evil desire” came only after “eating a piece of fruit” (or when or when reaching for), but that does not explain why a “serpent”, created by God, had this “guile” & “evilness” & while it was in “paradise”, “earthly heaven”. If the “serpent”, was “evil, satan, a so-called fallen angel” and “spiritual”, “or a spiritual being” than those commentators (who represent the major belief) have God being ignorant, or a liar, or basically also evil, and the spiritual realm is worse than the physical realm (since, as Plato & many gnostics believe, all creation was “created flawed” – or the 7 heavens idea where the further off creation or a heaven is from the very good or “pure good center” the more flawed & corrupt the heaven & the material universes are. So opinions that only emphasize “a possibility of evil” seems more hopeful & hopefully more correct, than the hopeless & more cynical & more popular opinion (hopeless, unless the creator god suffers as a human & this god dies a horrendous death, in order to gain “victory over death” & rather than victory over an evil desire, there must be victory over an inherently evil spirits, evil heavens, & the master evil being, called the devil or the “creator god”.
Naaria, this reply should be to your mosrpt recent reply to me: “Well othe commentators…” (Feb 6)
So, do you think the commentary in Genesis Rabbah could be wrong?
Another example. The Talmud says on the tenth of Tevet, 425 BCE, Nebuchadnezzar began the siege of Jerusalem. We know that this date is 100 years later than most, if not all, other historical records.what is your view of the Talmud bringing forward Middle Eastern history by a century.
Reply
Dates 400-500 and more before Herod”s death are mostly conjectural. I more concerned about commentary or fictional drama that some people take as holy scriptures. For instance, commentary called Acts of the Apostles contradicting previous written scriptural writings in several places (e.g,, “Stephanus”) and having Theudas occurring before “Judah the Galilean” when the events happened 40 or 50 years earlier (or most likely one of the events even hadn’t happened yet!) than the “speaker” supposedly lived. “Acts” supposedly was written no more than 100-150 years after the events that it “reports” or comments on. And that error is considered scripture, the “Word of God”. Or, consider that 2 gospel writers (supposedly writing within no more than 50 years after the “death of their own lord and master” or no more than 80 years after his birth, including 1 who was one of the “twelve hand-picked & closest disciples” of his lord) cannot agree on when their master was born. The range of that error may be about 12 years (6 b.c.e vs. 6 c.e.) within about 80 years of the event that was so very, very dear to their heart & “their life & their whole reason for living”.
I’ll respond to your Acts shortly. So, do you think the commentary in Genesis Rabbah could be wrong?
Acts Chap 19, makes little sense since the leaders (the “big fish”) of a movement stay in Jerusalem & have no fear, but Paul goes after “to bind & bring back” “small fry” in one of 2 or 3 possible foreign countries (or was it Qumran, where they write also of “the way”). “The Jews” appear to have no problem with “the Jews” who are followers of Jesus who fled to safety in Damascus, but “the Jews” seem to have a problem with Paul, “a Jew” who no longer is who he was.
Is Jesus 2 people, since he has 2 different times of birth, 2 different geneaologies (with no “scriptural “basis for the difference, except for speculative commentary), and he was or definitely was not taken to Egypt shortly after his birth. Commentary may or may not be enlightening, but “scripture” itself should not be contradicting itself so often nor should it be so confusing for those who seek or sought enlightenment from it.
Naaria, could we keep to the protocol of turn-taking in communication. My question beseeches an answer before I answer your subsequent question. So, do you think the commentary in Genesis Rabbah could be wrong?
Somehow, this got placed in the wrong location by the “system” so here is a copy at the end of the last discussion. (I.e., my same reply occurs twice).
——-
I thought I had answered your question a couple of times, unless I have misunderstood some point that you were vaguely trying to make or inadequately trying to ask. But, the comment in Genesis Rabbah (which seems to have little to do with points made earlier and which is from a work that I was not too familiar with, since I mainly study early and modern Christian or modern Jewish commentary) does seem to help to us to understand why Genesis is so filled with stories of disobedience, tensions, competition, or hatred between siblings, etc., yet the book ends with reconciliation between brothers and with the concept of forgiveness. This is necessary for the upcoming Torah books on redemption and salvation and the birth of a nation that arises out of slavery and to a “constitution of freedom” moving a people under God’s rule to “the promised land”. A teshuvah, a return to “a garden of eden”. We now can understand part of Joseph’s story where he says (a Paul in the NT says similar words) Genesis 50:19-21 “But Joseph said to them, “Do not be afraid! Am I in the place of God? Even though you intended to do harm to me, God intended it for good (or changed it to result in good), in order to preserve a numerous people, as he is doing today. So have no fear; I myself will provide for you and your little ones.” In this way he reassured them, speaking kindly to them.” So, in effect, the malignant intentions of human beings can realize the benign intentions of God.
Romans 7:14-21, also states about “the inner conflict” that some believe is inherent in Man, “For we know that the law is spiritual; but I am of the flesh, sold into slavery under sin. I do not understand my own actions. For I do not do what I want, but I do the very thing I hate. Now if I do what I do not want, I agree that the law is good. But in fact it is no longer I that do it, but sin that dwells within me. For I know that nothing good dwells within me, that is, in my flesh. I can will what is right, but I cannot do it. For I do not do the good I want, but the evil I do not want is what I do. Now if I do what I do not want, it is no longer I that do it, but sin that dwells within me. So I find it to be a law that when I want to do what is good, evil lies close at hand.” Now, when Cain is warned (to not go through the “narrow gate”(?)) was he really wanting to do good, but intead, because “evil was close at hand” in the “created world” and Cain was flesh & “blood” he did the very thing that he hated to do? Was that Eve’s problem as well, and if so, then “sin already dwelled within her” before she sinned, since she succumbed to “the evil that laid close at hand”. The NT speaks of “fallen angels” and “war & evil principalities in heaven”. So if heaven is corrupt, yet very good, then earth reflects that corruption. So the “evil desire” is “inherent” in Man and so “God had to become Man, or take on “evil desire,” to overcome the “evil desire” and gain “victory over death”?
So, again, bottom line, commentary is commentary. It can be helpful or enlightening and mainly objective Or it can be opinions that are unhelpful or confusing or “off-based” & highly subjective. It’s “correctness” or incorrectness is largely subjective. So, if certain commentary is objectionable to some people, for whatever “right” or “wrong” reason, it is only commentary. But some comments are focused on God and understanding our relationship to God, while other commentaries are primarily focused on something or somebody who was is “not-God” or was not the original concept of God. If “repugnant” or “objectionable” or “blasphemous” ideas are commentary, that is one thing, but if those ideas are considered “scripture” those who reject those ideas as “scripture” must be vocal and forceful that those writings not be added to what was whole & good & existed before. Or that those additions be kept separate, by those who feel the “old” scriptures about God were in some way defective, deficient, or obsolete. In that case, the “old wine jars” can be entirely discarded, since “new wine” requires a “new jar” or else the jar breaks & the wine gets wasted.
I appreciate what you say. (Exegetical) commentary attempts to tease out the (exact) meaning of the words. Genesis Rabbah is attempting to do this with “very good.” Do you think it is possible that it has not hit the nail on the head with this one?
I gave my answer a couple of times already, so sorry, if it doesn’t meet with your satisfaction. Since, I can only assume that you may have a different interpretation from how others may interpret the commentary, perhaps you can show where it is “right” or how it is “wrong”. Otherwise, people will assume you have nothing much to contribute by obsessing on what appears to be obscure & perhaps of minor interest or importance to others. Perhaps a diversion from answering questions posed to you that you have not yet even attempted to answer?
Naaria, there are two kinds of questions: 1. Information questions, 2. Yes-No questions.
I asked the latter. Instead you understood the former. I didn’t see either a yes or a no. Simplify for me: could anything in the Midrash, Genesis Rabbah, for instance, ever be wrong, specifically the “very good” one, yes or no?
You can find (if you haven’t already) an English translation of the Genesis Rabbah here
http://archive.org/details/RabbaGenesis
Our text is on p. 68.
7. Nahman said in R. Samuel’s name: BEHOLD, IT WAS VERY GOOD refers to the Good Desire; AND BEHOLD, IT WAS VERY GOOD, to the Evil Desire. Can then the Evil Desire be very good? That would be extraordinary ! But for the Evil Desire, however, no man would build a house, take a wife and beget children ; and thus said Solomon : Again, I considered all labour and all excelling in work , that it is a man’s rivalry with his neighbour(Eccl. IV, 4).
Yes-no questions are also “information questions”. One may seek or one may give a “yes-no” for a few reasons, including if one is lazy, or if one cannot be or does not want exactness, or if one believes there they are dealing with an “absolute” or at least, some concrete or discrete thing or object (which would exclude most ideas or the “spiritual realm”). Commentary is commentary, so I believe your question is really rather “is the author of Genesis wrong or right, and if so what are the consequences of each”? Which is no simple answer. Looking at things “simply” (or simple-mindedly) is probably “incorrect”, since it may hide some lie or it may leave out or deny some truth. “One part” does not determine the whole. If I answer “yes” to one of your different questions, one can then show where the NT was also wrong (since it has something to say about “the value of suffering”, “rain on evil or good alike”, etc). Or if “no”, one can show where the NT is then wrong. Perhaps, if your example was a different quote, my answers might be different.
So, would you grant that parts of the Mishnah could be wrong?
As for the bit I quoted (which I asked you whether it could be wrong – not is or is not wrong), do you think the interpretation is (in sync with) the Oral Torah that many Jews claim was revealed at Sinai.
Bography
Yes the Rabbis of the Mishna, Midrash and the Talmud do not claim infallibility – in fact the Talmud iteslef records many instances where these rabbis themselves admitted that they erred
You keep asking new questions without answering the ones first asked of you. So if you were truthful about providing those answers, then provide them without asking further subsequent questions.
Or you made a promise to respond, but have not yet kept your promise. It would be very helpful, if your responses are not a re-iteration of NT verses. And provide references, if possible, so that the reader can be further enlightened.
BTW, a “whether it could be” type of question is not a “yes-no” or a “true-false” type of question. It is asking for an opinion and that opinion may be “yes” or “no”, or “both” or “neither” or “”no opinion”, or “let me research it or think about it for a while”. And each response, may require additional info, clarification, or qualification. That is if, one is free to express their true opinion and then not judged “right” or “wrong”.
Naaria
“both” – so yes AND no (the Mishnah could be wrong).
“neither” – so not yes, not no (the Mishnah could be wrong).
“no opinion” – you got me there, for how could I presume you’re interested in such matters.
“let me research it or think about it for a while” – You have informed me that you need to be more informed.
In today’s reply to me OurPhariseeFriend said that there are wrong things in the Talmud. As you might know, the Rambam said there was much in the Talmud/Gemara that was a waste of time:
“Do not waste your time with the commentaries and inconclusive explanations of the obscure passages of the Gemara. I abandoned those practises long ago as a waste of time and of little profit. May HaShem lead you in the right path.” (Rambam).
To get back to the questions you wanted me to answer. There were quite a number. Please repeat one of them again, and I’ll try to research it and get back to you. Oui ou Non?
I am grateful to you for your posts.
Bography
Perhaps you are incapable of understanding – but in case you are – keep your comments on the subject of the original blog post
One thing I can say in relation to the subject you introduced here is that the community that spent their time studying Talmud did not come up with Crusades Inquisition and Holocaust – it was the community that spent their time scoffing the Talmud that did.
The fact that you need to create this diversion speaks volumes
I had thought of you as an intelligent person – perhaps a bit of a sophist (that is not meant as an insult, but what it meant originally, a skilled arguer) – and that has helped me to be a better debater or teacher. But you are beginning to cause me to doubt that. If a person writes or understands English poorly, I try to understand them as best as possible, because what they are trying to say (even or especially if I disagree with them) is more important than how they say it. But that is not your problem. But as they say in my part of the US, you just might be “plum ornery”.
In my last post, I gave you possible options that one might prefer to respond, instead of a “black & white, no grays, no color” type of question. The theoretical answerer (not necessarily me). So, yes, the Jesus in the NT could be wrong. Or maybe the NT writer said some truthful things and some untruthful or absurd things as well, so should the person recommend others read it or not. Or, yes, neither, the person could care less one way or the other or without further study they don’t know how to respond.
Perhaps you know I was raised as a Christian and started in a seminary program to become a minister (and only did not continue because I did not have the time). I spent 5 times more years being a Christian & studying the NT than reading anything about Jews or Judaism. So, I seen many problems with the NT long before I even heard of a Gemara or mishna. As a non-Jew, I didn’t need to know anything about Jews (other than what was in the canonical OT & NT), before I seen big problems with not only the 353 “prophecies” listed above, but many others.
So, you ought to be ashamed of how you have failed to respond to the Rabbi’s post. Pitiful, I tell you. I’m disappointed, so you needn’t answer any of my questions. I never could have guessed that I presented any challenge to anyone.
Perhaps, you ought to return to your roots. At least, cut out all the deadwood.
Commentary is commentary. What one should have a problem with is commentary that some have made holy scripture. With over 300 poor “misreadings” of other scripture as “proof”, all I can respectfully say, is there is a big, big problem, even before looking at the many “internal” problems of those writings.
Thanks for making this available.
http://www.network54.com/Forum/616906/
No where do I find your actual experience in all these articles you wrote.
You have a link to barnabas nowye, do you also believe in what he says?
if you scroll down to ‘the visitation’ you will find my one time experience that began with the light of Christ that led to the separation unto the gospel in less than two years (here are Rachels children and the weeping in Ramah (high seat of idolatry): The separation (circumcision of the heart, Abraham’s covenant) is necessary for the pieces to come together again in the “right” way, the tzaddik way: I don’t know exactly where you see a link to the person you noted but I don’t recognize the name; Hope that answered everything:) blesses, shalom
I am only interested in the actual event, what happened, not your percieved meaning and understandings of all g-ds teachings.
Click on your name above, then click down once, under “those who escape”.
hello again………I did as you asked…….and I could not find that name in my writings: I never heard of it: how do you see it there?
Read above, I did not say the words were there, there was a link to barnabas, Do as I said, then click on the “lord jesus christ in blue lettering.
ahhh……yes I see what you mean: the answer is I don’t know how that got linked with “Jesus”: Maybe the forum does that to link certain names together? Thanks for bringing that to light:) I don’t know anything about the person however: shalom
Yvonne–thanks for sharing that.
ok, picking up the story from Tisha B’av (July) to Oct (yom kippur of that year in 1992) but I didn’t know any of these Jewish holy days till six years later when I started bringing this message to the internet: I didn’t have a computer till 95 so I didn’t know much about Judaism till much later. Oct of that year however my mind was gone and I mean “G O N E” ; I was in darkness almost all the time and my head got so tight so distressed that I couldn’t take it anymore: One night just before my yom kippur experience I was in the bathroom crying out and this time instead of crying to God as I had done, I said ‘who are you and what do you want from me”? I then said the words without thinking, “I WANT TO SEE YOU”; I opened the door and went to bed exhausted and crying: AT mignight it felt like a hand waking me up and I got up but nobody was there: I felt I was being PUSHED into the living room with a hand behind my back to where I could not turn around I was terrified…..and I sat on the corner of the couch when suddenly my two temples got so tight I felt like someone had a vice on them and began turning tighter and tighter and I held my two temples……and screamed, Im dying, Im dying…….and all of a sudden, with my eyes closed, I felt a tiny tiny dot of bright gold zzzzzzzzzzoooooooooooom in fron the center of my brain right behind but above my eyes……and it was so fast and so amazingly bright but as it landed on my forehead from within my head, I looke up and there was a golden or brass man on a cross, and it landed with the darkest darkness behind it, so dark I could feel it: I cried, no, no, no, My JESUS is dead. In an instant I was on the cross with him face to face and the vision stopped: Will finish later…….
Yvonne–what does this mean “By October the “imminent” war on Iran seemed inevitable and the cyber-world buzzed about theories from Nibiru or Planet X being on its way to the Zionist agenda that took over the world to Lucifer being the god of the Jews”
the above topics were discussed all over the internet in circles where people were expecting the end of world scenarios: If you don’t know anything about these topics, don’t worry about them: I tried explaining the real meaning of these topics but to little avail.
That does not explain , lucifer beeping the g-d of the Jews. Who cares about the scenario. Thanks for all the info, I’m done. Good luck, I hope you start feeling better.
I didn’t say that: Other said it and I wanted to explain to them why they were wrong: Lucifer is Adam not the God of the Jews: Lucifer is the morning star that has to RISE again as the ‘daystar’ in our heart; Adam is resurrected through Christ to make him the “Last Adam”: Jesus said I am the ‘root and offspring of David and the bright and MORNING star”: The sinner gives birth to the HOLY ONE of Israel to transfrom the sinner into a saint: I will leave you alone but I am fine: the experience was 20 years ago: Job felt better too after God and Satan were done with him.
https://yourphariseefriend.wordpress.com/2013/01/24/the-kings-musician-tactics-of-persuasion/
I have read the book of Job and satan is a minor, add-on character in this book (which takes place in the land of ‘Uz’, and not in Israel or Judea). And I have argued from it extensively a few months ago on this forum about the “serpent” and “satan” and the concept of a “devil”. The “devil” was a non-Jewish concept which attempts to explain evil. And that concept was quite accepted outside of Israel long before Jesus and long after.
Satan in the NT is “worlds” apart from the satan in the “OT”. And the devil (absent in the OT, where God reigns over ALL kingdoms & where God surrendered nowhere to any “evil spirit” imagined by pagans) in the NT is a mirror image of the devil in “Babylon” and other non-Jewish nations (places where folks did not know the God of Israel). And many folks who “know” about “darkness” know about “devils” & “torment”. The Spiritually enlightened reject the human concept of “devils” because it is an idea born in spiritually darkened minds. They reject as pure nonsense ideas that there is “light that is darkness”. Before there was “light” there was God. And in the Tanakh, the light did not reveal “devils”, but rather something good which darkness was a part of. God did not yield or surrender to “evil” & divide His kingdom in two. God did not say that the dark, without light, was evil, no more than a planet or a moon without trees is evil just because trees were called good. Or did God become good with the light? Or did the light reveal that God was “devils”? Only in pagan literature and in the NT, do we see that a “devil” was given kingdoms on earth? Who gave “the devil” those kingdoms? Does the NT mean that God gave those kingdoms to “the devil”? Why? And, in Matthew, after “the devil” says we would give Jesus “all these things -these kingdoms” if Jesus worships the “devil”, why a few chapters later does Jesus say “all these things” were given to him? Before his death. If Jesus got them, why does he still allow “darkness” on the face of the earth? Seems like Jesus only took over from “the devil” and then said (to appease the complainers) “time ain’t right, but “soon”, I will whip that old “devil” & take it’s kingdom from it because I did what was necessary to get it”? Imagine “a devil” or “devils” and darkness reigns everyday. Slay the imaginary dragon and then dragons (or bogey men under your bed in the darkness) won’t scare you no more. Turn the light on & there are no bogey-men; you are free & alive. But some prefer darkness & fear & tormented minds.
Yvonne,
Your
When God appears, he does so through the ‘heart’ hence he bypasses the mind completely …”
Let me think a bit.
So, did Elihu get it all wrong when he asked Job: “Do you think this to be just? Do you say, ‘It is my right before God,’
And the Psalmist: Psalm 119:52 “When I think of your rules from of old, I take comfort, O Lord.”
So, did Paul also get it all wrong?
“Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable–if anything is excellent or praiseworthy–
think about such things” (Philippians 4:8).
If you had said that God renews the mind (of those he chooses to), that seems to be more scriptural.
The heart without the mind would need a double bypass,
Yep, renew not bypass the noggin.
Yvonne, your two comments 1. “my noggin was revealed as the vessel of vanity…” and 2. “Christ is the light that reveals the darkness…”
Here is Jonathan Edwards from his “Original Sin,” which, as you know, the Jew does not believe in:
“That it is to be looked upon as the true tendency of the innate disposition of man’s heart, which appears to be its tendency, when we consider things as they are in themselves, or in their own nature, without the interposition of divine grace. — Thus, that state of man’s nature, that disposition of the mind, is to be looked upon as evil and pernicious, which, as it is in itself, tends to extremely pernicious consequences, and would certainly end therein, were it not that the free mercy and kindness of God interposes to prevent that issue. It would be very strange if any should argue that there is no evil tendency in the case, because the mere favor and compassion of the Most High may step in and oppose the tendency and prevent the sad effect. Particularly, if there be anything in the nature of man whereby he has an universal unfailing tendency to that moral evil which, according to the real nature and true demerit of things as they are in themselves, implies his utter ruin, that must be looked upon as an evil tendency or propensity; however divine grace may interpose to save him from deserved ruin, and to overrule things to an issue contrary to that which they tend to of themselves. Grace is sovereign, exercised according to the good pleasure of God, bringing good out of evil.”
Re: The bit about Job’s shards. I think we should stick to the skin-deep level of the text.
The doctrine of ”Christ crucified”: After the destruction of the Jewish state by the Romans (Luke 21, 13, Mark 13, Matthew 24), the doctrine of ”Christ crucified” shall be preached every where – then, according to Christian teaching he will return and establish his reign on earth.
“Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, all the tribes of the Land will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with tremendous power and glory…”
Revelation 1:7, John 19:37: ”Look! He is coming with the clouds! Every eye will see him, including those who pierced him; and all the tribes of the Land will mourn him. Yes! Amen!”
This is referring to the Christian mistranslation of Zechariah 12:10 NKJ “And I will pour on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and supplication; then they will look on Me whom they pierced. Yes, they will mourn for Him as one mourns for his only son, and grieve for Him as one grieves for a firstborn.”
Tomorrow, January 27, 2013 is the International Holocaust Remembrance Day, a day to remember and learn about the horrors of the Holocaust, the genocide which led to the killing of 6 million Jews.
Zechariah 12:10 Jewish NJPS “But I will fill the House of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem with a spirit of pity and compassion; and they shall lament to Me about those who are slain, wailing over them as over a favorite son and showing bitter grief as over a first-born.”
The Christian mistranslation of Psalm 22:17(16) NKJ “For dogs have surrounded Me.The congregation of the wicked has enclosed Me. THEY PIERCED MY HANDS AND MY FEET.” P salm 22:16
Hebrew Scripture: “For dogs have encompassed me a company of evil-doers have inclosed me, LIKE A LION, THEY ARE AT MY HANDS AND MY FEET.” Psalm 22:17(16)
In the words of Rabbi Tovia Singer: “When the original words of Psalm 22:17 (or Zechariah 12:10) are read, any allusion to a crucifixion disappears.
Notice how king David is using the animal motif to describe his enemies in the verses immediately before and after Psalm 22:17(16). In the surrounding verses of Psalm 22:17(16), the Psalmist looks to God for deliverance from his enemies whom he identifies as a – lion and a dog.” See also 1 Samuel Ch. 17.
The Serpent on a Pole: Numbers 21:6-9 The Lord sent against the people the venomous snakes, and they bit the people, and many people of Israel died. The people came to Moses and said, “We have sinned, for we have spoken against the Lord and against you. Pray to the Lord that He remove the snakes from us.” So Moses prayed on behalf of the people.”
“The Lord said to Moses, “Make yourself a serpent and put it on a pole, and let whoever is bitten look at it and live. Moses made a copper snake and put it on a pole, and whenever a snake bit a man, he would gaze upon the copper snake and live.”
Does a serpent cause death of life? Rather when they looked upward and subjected their hearts to their Father in Heaven they were healed, but if not they died (Rosh Hashanah 29a). As in Isaiah 6:10 “lest he see with his eyes, and hear with his ears, and his heart understand, and he repent and be healed.”
The “copper snake” that God commanded Moses to make in brought people closer to God. But generations later, people began to consider the copper snake independent from God, they started to worship it as a separate power. ” Just as Moshe lifted up the serpent in the desert, so must the Son of Man be lifted up so that everyone who trusts in him may have eternal life” (John 3:14-15 CJB).
II Kings 18:3-8 ” Hezekiah did what was right in the eyes of the Lord, like all that his father David had done. He abolished the high places, and smashed the monuments, and cut down the asherah, and crushed the copper serpent that Moses had made, for until those days the children of Israel were burning incense to it; and he called it NEHUSHTAN.” ” A thing of copper,” a pejorative term. Although Moses made it for a noble purpose, in later centuries it began to be looked upon as a deity. Therefore Hezekiah destroyed it.
The Zohar that says that if you were able to journey to the center of the Torah, you would uncover the secret In the serpent’s belly, the root of Moshe Rabbinu (Moses’) soul. Hmmm.
Want the reference?
I explained every name from Moses to David, to Satan, to Jesus, to every king and every prophet is a level of consciousness we discover within our own experience:
@bography: “The Zohar that says that if you were able to journey to the center of the Torah, you would uncover the secret In the serpent’s belly, the root of Moshe Rabbinu (Moses’) soul. Hmmm.
Want the reference?”
Yes please, that would be great 🙂
“Rabbah said in the name of Rabbi Yohanan: In time to come the Holy One blessed be He will make a feast for the righteous from the flesh of Leviathan…(Job Ch. 40).
“On that day, the Lord shall visit with His hard and great and strong sword on leviathan the barlike serpent, and upon leviathan the crooked serpent, and He shall slay the dragon that is in the sea” (Isaiah 27:1). Nations, enemies are likened to serpents that bite (Psalm 58:4-6, 74:12-14, Amos 9:1-4, Micha 7:15-17), these sea-monsters represent different gentile kings and nations such as Gog and Magog, Edom-Rome; “the divided kingdom” (Daniel 2:31-35,40-44), represented by Christianity and I-slam.
Esau was in fact the very incarnation of the serpent “NACHASH” (see Targum on Gen. 25:27, where “knowing hunting” is translated as NACHASHIRCHAN, having the connotation of NACHASH, serpentine). The Hebrew letters of NACHASH and MASHIACH have exactly the same numerical value, 358–because the Nun of NACHASH is 50 which is the same of the Mem (40) plus Yud (10) of MASHIACH.” The serpent is respected because of its wisdom and high intelligence.
Genesis 3:15 “And I shall place hatred between you (the old serpent, satan, NACHASH) and between the woman, and between your seed and between her seed. He (God) will crush your head, and you (the woman) will bite his heel (AKEV).” Even from there you will kill him…
NECHUSHTAN: http://www.torahblogg.net/32628577
“And it was when David was in Edom that Joab, the commander of the army had gone up to bury the slain, since he had slain every male in Edom” (1 Kings 11:15). Yonatan ben Uzziel translates it; “to strip the slain, to take their (priestly) clothing.”
“So may we soon merit to sit in the Succah of the skin of the Leviathan” – just like Rebekah, who outsmarted Isaac and took Esau’s beautiful clothes and dressed Jacob with them, for she knew that for the good of the entire world, it was vital that the blessings should go to Jacob (Toldos: Rabbi Avraham Greenbaum).
See also: A Perfect Fit by Levi Chazen : Throughout history, we have seen nations and religions rising up and saying that G-d has abandoned the Jewish people and chosen them, just like King Achashverosh claimed. They try today to put the priestly garments upon themselves. Both the Christians, with their “New Testament”, and the Muslims, with their falsehoods, claim that G-d has abandoned the Jewish people and chose them. They try to wear the garments, but no matter how they put them on – they do not fit.
As history plays itself out in our time, all are claiming the garments for themselves; all will turn against the Jewish people in order to claim the royal garments, but after the dust settles, all will see the Jewish High Priest arising from the Holy Temple in Jerusalem with the splendor of the holy garments upon him – a perfect fit.
http://www.israelnationalnews.com/Articles/Article.aspx/8626
“Thou shalt have no other gods before Me” (Exodus 20:2). This is a negative commandment not to believe in any deity other than the one true God, Creator of the Universe, meaning that it is forbidden to set up a mediator between God and man (Maimonides – Laws of Idolatry Ch. 1). In other words, it is forbidden to worship God through an idol.
One of Hebrew Christians; Messianic Jews’ “Statements of faith” reads: “We believe in the deity of Yeshua HaMashiach. We believe He was born of a virgin, lived a sinless Torah-observant life and performed many miracles.” Nothing could be farther from the truth.
Isaiah 43:3,10-11,15 says “For I am the LORD thy God, The Holy One of Israel, thy Saviour;.. before Me there was no God formed, neither shall any be after Me. , I even I, am the LORD; and beside Me there is no saviour. I am the LORD, your Holy One, the Creator of Israel, your King.”
The Catholic belief is that prayer must be directed through an intermediary i.e., confessing one’s sins to a priest. Jesus himself is an intermediary, as Jesus said, “No one comes to the Father except through Me” (John 14:6). “For God is one; and there is but one Mediator between God and humanity, Yeshua the Messiah, himself human, (1 Timothy 2:5). “Now an intermediary implies more than one; but God is one” (Galatians 3:20, Hebrews 8:6, 9:15, 12:24, 2 Corinthians 4:4, Colossians 1:14-16).
Deuteronomy 4:15-16 warns us: “Take ye therefore good heed unto yourselves–for ye saw no manner of form on the day that the LORD spoke unto you in Horeb out of the midst of the fire– lest ye deal corruptly, and make you a graven image, even the form of any figure, the likeness of male or female,..”
if I was not absolutely sure that Jesus is the “SPIRIT of HaShem born through the heart” (David), then I wouldn’t believe in any God; I would take my chance on being wrong rather than DENYING the only reality that was experienced by ME as it is also explained in the Bible in every single chapter:
Is that what you mean when you wrote. “If God had not come in flesh in our flesh, our mortality, which is our own heart (David after the flesh), there would have been no need for God to ever become flesh”. This spaghetti code is so confusing.
Sorry the more I read from you the more confused I get
You mentioned in one of your forums that only two people Ever listened to you, I think I know why.
The plan for the redemption of man by the Creator is always offered through repentance and obedience all through the Tanakh, yet deception seems to be much easier for people to believe than the Truth.
Larry
Your “Sorry the more I read from you the more confused I get.” Don’t you mean “trancefused?”
@bography: Thanx 🙂
“How Esau was searched out, how his hidden things were revealed!” (Ovadiah 6).
Hezekiah was determined to take away the intermediaries people had relied upon and lead them on the path of pure faith in HaShem.
yes, all PICTURES that come in VISIONS (from above, from God) to show you what he MEANS in what is written, are not the whole truth anymore than a picture of an apple is an apple; You have to come to the point of letting go of the visions as being the reality; they are the pictures of reality but the REALITY is God who gives them all to you: Hence the image is not the substance: Hezekiah is that part in you that realizes THIS as the truth:
So, would the commentary from Genesis Rabbah be merely one among others, and so could be wrong?
So, do you think the commentary in Genesis Rabbah could be wrong?
Another example. The Talmud says on the tenth of Tevet, 425 BCE, Nebuchadnezzar began the siege of Jerusalem. We know that this date is 100 years later than most, if not all, other historical records.what is your view of the Talmud bringing forward Middle Eastern history by a century.
Bography
You seem to be worried about “protocol” – your entire question is off topic which is out of “protocol” of the comment policy. In any case – your insistence on speaking about peripheral matters when your house is burning tells us exactly how many arguments of substance you have in your arsenal
To explain the Genesis Rabba would take time – you could write to me privately if you are truly interested in getting an explanation
I asked you a yes-no question, not an information question. The former is of one syllable length. The latter may indeed be longer. In words of one syllable, I think I know why you won’t play ball.
Correction, mea culpa, I was addressing Naaria, not you YPF.
I thought I had answered your question a couple of times, unless I have misunderstood some point that you were vaguely trying to make or inadequately trying to ask. But, the comment in Genesis Rabbah (which seems to have little to do with points made earlier and which is from a work that I was not too familiar with, since I mainly study early and modern Christian or modern Jewish commentary) does seem to help to us to understand why Genesis is so filled with stories of disobedience, tensions, competition, or hatred between siblings, etc., yet the book ends with reconciliation between brothers and with the concept of forgiveness. This is necessary for the upcoming Torah books on redemption and salvation and the birth of a nation that arises out of slavery and to a “constitution of freedom” moving a people under God’s rule to “the promised land”. A teshuvah, a return to “a garden of eden”. We now can understand part of Joseph’s story where he says (a Paul in the NT says similar words) Genesis 50:19-21 “But Joseph said to them, “Do not be afraid! Am I in the place of God? Even though you intended to do harm to me, God intended it for good (or changed it to result in good), in order to preserve a numerous people, as he is doing today. So have no fear; I myself will provide for you and your little ones.” In this way he reassured them, speaking kindly to them.” So, in effect, the malignant intentions of human beings can realize the benign intentions of God.
Romans 7:14-21, also states about “the inner conflict” that some believe is inherent in Man, “For we know that the law is spiritual; but I am of the flesh, sold into slavery under sin. I do not understand my own actions. For I do not do what I want, but I do the very thing I hate. Now if I do what I do not want, I agree that the law is good. But in fact it is no longer I that do it, but sin that dwells within me. For I know that nothing good dwells within me, that is, in my flesh. I can will what is right, but I cannot do it. For I do not do the good I want, but the evil I do not want is what I do. Now if I do what I do not want, it is no longer I that do it, but sin that dwells within me. So I find it to be a law that when I want to do what is good, evil lies close at hand.” Now, when Cain is warned (to not go through the “narrow gate”(?)) was he really wanting to do good, but intead, because “evil was close at hand” in the “created world” and Cain was flesh & “blood” he did the very thing that he hated to do? Was that Eve’s problem as well, and if so, then “sin already dwelled within her” before she sinned, since she succumbed to “the evil that laid close at hand”. The NT speaks of “fallen angels” and “war & evil principalities in heaven”. So if heaven is corrupt, yet very good, then earth reflects that corruption. So the “evil desire” is “inherent” in Man and so “God had to become Man, or take on “evil desire,” to overcome the “evil desire” and gain “victory over death”?
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