The following essay was sent to a Messianic leader. He suggested that we exchange our respective views about the Messiah that was predicted by the prophets of the Jewish Scriptures. I sent him my point of view, but I never received any response from him. I do find it interesting that most of my correspondence with Messianics and Christians adhere to the same template. I write something based on Scripture, and the response I get is generally the same: silence. I wonder why?
As we agreed – here is my presentation of the Messiah from the perspective of the Jewish Scriptures.
Genesis 49:10 tells us that the Messiah will have the nations gather to him.
Numbers 24:17-19 tells us that the Messiah will achieve military victory over Israel’s enemies.
Isaiah 11:1-12:6 Describes a leader imbued with a spirit of God, wisdom, understanding, council, strength, knowledge and fear of God. He will be a righteous judge and he will smite the wicked dead. Here too, it speaks of the nations seeking him (11:10 – as in Genesis 49:10).
In this passage we get a description of the times of the Messiah. The prophet speaks of universal peace and universal knowledge of God (11:6-9). The prophet speaks of the ingathering of Israel’s exiles (11:11 -16) and Israel’s victory over her enemies (11:14 – as in Numbers 24:17-19).
The prophet then describes Israel’s song and exultation in praise of God (12:1-6).
Isaiah 55:3,4 speaks of God’s kindness towards David and how He has appointed Him a leader and a commander for the nations. My understanding of this passage is that it refers to David’s descendant; the Messiah. God’s promises to David are fulfilled through this descendant of his. This fits in with the other prophecies that refer to the Messiah (Genesis 49:10, Isaiah 11:10).
Jeremiah 3:15 speaks of shepherds after God’s heart implying that the Messiah will not rule alone but that there will be a plurality of leaders in that time. This concept is repeated in Obadiah 1:21and Micah 5:4.
Jeremiah 23:5-8 and 33:14-16 describe Messiah as a king who executes justice and charity and that there will be security for Israel in his days.
Jeremiah 30:9 refers to the Messiah as “David” – as does Ezekiel (34:23,24, 37:24) and Hosea (3:5). I want to talk about this point at length after I finish listing the Scriptural references.
Jeremiah 30:21 tells us that the Messiah will be one of us (the Jewish people at the end of time will consider him one of their own) and that God will have to bring the Messiah close to Himself – because who would dare approach God.
Ezekiel 34:23-31 speaks of the Messiah as a shepherd and a prince. The prophet describes the times as a period of peace, security and great bounty.
Ezekiel 37:22-28 also speaks of the Messiah and his times. It speaks of the Temple being rebuilt, Israel’s reconciliation with God, ingathering of the exiles, observance of the Law, and a covenant of peace.
Ezekiel 44:3 speaks of the privilege of the prince/Messiah to eat his offerings in a special area of the Temple (reminiscent of Jeremiah 30:21).
Ezekiel 45:7,8 speaks of the land that will be designated for the Messiah in the end-times.
Ezekiel 45:16,17 speaks of the messiah’s responsibility to pay for the communal offerings of the holidays.
Ezekiel 45:22 speaks of the Messiah’s responsibility to bring a sin-offering for himself and for the nation.
Throughout chapter 46 (Ezekiel) we learn of various privileges and responsibilities of the Messiah (verses 2,4,8,10,12,15-18).
Micah 5:3 speaks of the Messiah shepherding Israel with the might of God, Israel will return from the exile, and the fame of the Messiah will reach the ends of the earth. (Note that Micah 5:1 tells us that the Messiah will be from the Bethlhemite clan – in keeping with the promise to David).
According to many commentators, Zechariah 9:9,10 also refer to the Messiah. Here he is described as righteous and poor – riding on a donkey. He will rule with peace over the ends of the earth.
Zechariah chapters 12 and 13 refer to the house of David in a position of leadership in the end-times – also a Messianic reference (12:7,8,10,12, 13;1). Here too, we have a description of a military victory of Israel over her enemies.
I think that these are the Scriptural references of the man Messiah that are most explicit and clear. The picture we gather is that the Messiah will be a wise and righteous king of the Davidic dynasty who will rule over Israel in an era when all the nations recognize Israel’s role as God’s firstborn son. Thus all of the nations will be subject to the Messiah as part of their submission to Israel (Isaiah 60:12).
It is clear that the times of the Messiah are those glorious end-times that are so vividly described by the prophets (Deuteronomy 4:30, 30:1-10, 32:43, Jeremiah 3:14-18, 16:14,15,19, 23:3-6, 30:3,7-11,16-25, 31:1-39, 32:37-44, 33:6-26, 46:27,28, 50:4,5,19,20, Ezekiel 11:17-20, 20:40-44, 28:25-26, 34:9-16,22-31, 36:6-15,22-38, 37:1-28, 38:1-48:35, Isaiah 1:26,27, 2:2-4, 4:2-6, 10:33-12:6, 24:21-25:9, 30:26, 34:1-35, 40:1-11, 41:10-20, 43:5-10, 44:1-5 49:8-26, 51:11,22-52:12, 54:1-55:5, 56:7, 60:1-63:9, 65:17-25, 66:10-24, Hosea 2:1-3,16-25, Joel 3;1-5, 4:1-21, Amos 9:11-15, Obadiah 1:17-21, Micah 4:1-7, 5:1-13, 7:8-20, Zephaniah 3:9-20, Zechariah 2:9, 8:2-8, 14:3-21, Malachi 3:4,16-24, Psalm 51:20,21, 69:36,37, 98:1-3, 102:14-23, 126:1-6, Daniel 2:44, 7:18,22,27, 12:2,3,)
The fact that the prophets refer to the Messiah by the name; David, tells us that the Messiah will be like David. Of all of the characters in the Jewish Scripture, we know David best. His entire heart is open for all to read in the Book of Psalms. David loved God with all of his heart and his words reflect that love. David was totally self-effacing before God. He publicly recognized and acknowledged his failings and sins before God. The utter humility of David before God, and David’s all-consuming love of God touched the heart of Israel and continues to touch Israel’s heart to this very day. The prophet describes David as the one who gives pleasantness to Israel’s song (2Samuel 23:1). David is the ultimate human king. David was the man who had the ability to lead his people to spiritual victory as well as military victory without diverting the attention of the people to himself. David directed everyone’s devotion to God and to God alone. With David as our king the sovereignty of God is in no way eclipsed. This is what we look forward to. We look forward to a time when everyone is absolutely cognizant of God’s absolute sovereignty – under a king who continuously inspires us to increase and grow in our awareness of God’s absolute sovereignty and love
I think this sums up my understanding of the Messiah – I am looking forward to hearing your perspective.
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Thank You
Yisroel C. Blumenthal
1000 Verses - a project of Judaism Resources 
Rabbi Blumenthal,
This is a great essay. Will you share with us the missionary’s response?
Please check it, because approximately half way down to the end you inadvertently inserted a duplicate copy of the text and, thereby, cut off the sentence that starts with “We look”, the rest of which appears as the next to the last paragraph at the bottom of the page.
Thanks Uri for the comment and for the correction. I will share the missionary’s reply as soon as it comes but my experience tells me that it will not be any time soon – so don’t hold your breath.
Your Pharisee friend
Great essay. My family wouldn’t be happy I said that though.
If Messiah is like David, why do messianics still think he’s God. Was David God?
Also, do they believe in the 10 Commanments? The first 2 say there is but One. I used to preach this stuff until I was enlightened. There’s just no substance to their way of thinking. I wish they’d all just think!
Strange.
As someone who studied scripture in my undergraduate degree (at a Catholic college in Ontario Canada), I find your essay truly fascinating, first for all the scripture references and second for underlining more of how the Jewish faith defines a Messiah. This past year I finally got fed up with the Christian line of how Jewish people didn’t recognize the Messiah when he came and, using the question, “What is the Jewish definition of Messiah?”, I have been trying to read up on it in my spare time every since.
Of particular interest to me were references like the one about “riding on a donkey”. When I studied New Testament scriptures, my prof was quite good about teaching how everything was written 50-70 years after the fact and that nothing should be taken as a newspaper account of what actually happened. The gospel stories originally started with the death and resurrection stories, then the ministry of Jesus stories were tacked on and finally, in Luke and Matthew, the birth narratives were added on last. These stories were written to try and prove points, not to record actual history. In reading your list of scripture references, it really brings home just how much the gospels writers grabbed at prophetic references to the Messiah and tried to shoehorn the life of Jesus into them. Jesus riding a donkey into Jerusalem is celebrated every Palm Sunday but how many Christians realize, its just a reference to Zechariah?
Really great food for thought. Thanks.
Even better is that the NT has jesus riding TWO donkeys because the writer MISUNDERSTOOD the linguistic device which Zechariah employed. It would be as if Zechariah said “born with a silver spoon in his mouth” and then finding an account in the NT about a baby being born with an actual silver spoon in his mouth!!!
elskid,
I may not know about ligunistic devices, but by the grace of God I know horses. (been training, showing and giving lessons for 25 years). It is extremely humorous to see people take issue with this passage. It is very clear to anyone whose been around horses the Jenny (female donkey) is being led as her previously unridden colt follows his mother while Jesus sits on him.
No big mystery here, except to city folk.
Really great essay R Blumenthal! In dialoguing with a Christian the other day, he was insisting that the man from Nazareth was messiah ben Yosef and messiah be David. Yosef being the “suffering” messiah and David the “victorious” military and spiritual leader.
Curious that the NT NEVER called Jsus messiah ben Yosef…only ben David. And he never even completed one Davidic task that would have been exclusive to David.
There are a dual mission of the Messiah, first as the redeemer at His first coming, (the suffering servant) and then to return as the Messiah ben David, as King of kings and Lord of lords at His second coming to bring the redeemed home (by the way both are mentioned in the NT, descrided there). This duality of the “wedding of the bride/the.church and the husband/Jesus, can be understood if you recall the ancient Jewish weddings as a type of the wedding of the church(the women) to Christ..which goes as such=
a)
1st-coming = the bethrothal= MESSIAH BEN JOSEPH
b)
then= the groom returns to His father house to make a home for HIs wife
c)
then the groom returns in glory to fetch his wife and both go to His father ‘s house, to their home = HIs second coming, = MESSIAH BEN DAVID = KING OF kings and LORD of lords
This concept of the Ancient Jewish Wedding is a type of the Messiah’s Mission for the church, and needs to be understood if one is to know how Christ the Messiah was to accomplish the redemption/salvation of His church….
Eventually “AFTER THE 7TH MILLENNIUM OF REST IN HEAVEN”,(same as AFTER THE 7th MILLENNIAL SABBATH which is the MILLENNIAL KINGDOM IN HEAVEN)
then both the groom/Jesus the Messiah, and the Bride are seen in Revelation, returning in their home the Holy City, the New Jerusalem back to earth…where the New Jerusalem will finally settle (in the land of Israel) and the everlasting kingdom will take place…to eternity and beyond!!!!!!
The suffering servant is Israel. According the NT, how long did JC suffer?
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Rabbi Blumenthal. ,Meaning of the word “Messiah” is “an anointed one” for a special purpose. It does not mean ” “Redeemer” or Savior. When the Jews started to give the wrong meaning “Savior ” for the word messiah they started to wrongly interpret Bible prophecies in such a way to make the Jews believe God will send them a messiah in the lineage of King David. Basis of this belief is a promise God gave to King David. The promise God gave to David is a conditional one – see 1.Kings.2:3 and 8:25. But the Jews took it wrongly as an unconditional promise and it wrongly influenced their later writings and it lead to the wrong interpretation of Bible prophecies. They began to see promise of a Messiah in so many passages in the Bible as shown by Rabbi Blumenthal. This wrong interpretation of Bible passages lead some of the Jews to believe that Jesus is the promised messiah- not only redeemer of Israel but the whole world. Ironically it is highly astonishing that no Jew dared to question their belief that a son of David would be their messiah but Jesus questioned their tradition. See. Mathew 22:41-45. Not only that Jesus told the Jews not to believe any individual who may come claiming he is the messiah. History of Jews prove that Jesus was right that whenever some one came claiming he is the messiah Jews flocked around him and later it was proved that they were not real messiahs. Jesus told the Jews no individual will come as their messiah who or what will come is the kingdom of God . According to prophet Daniel that kingdom is given not to any king messiah but to the chosen people of God.That is why Jesus said to the Jews ” “Do not let your hearts be distressed. You believe in God; believe also in me “Do not be afraid, little flock, for your Father is well pleased to give you the kingdom”. When you give the meaning ” redeemer” for the word messiah you will think an individual will be the messiah that is what happened to Jews. But when you realize meaning of the “messiah” is ” an anointed one for a special purpose” you can see that the chosen people of God – Israel – is the anointed one. Every Jew is an anointed one of Yahweh their God. That is why Yahweh says to Israel ” Exod.19:6 you will be for me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.’ “.Isa.61: 6 you will be called priests of the LORD, you will be named ministers of our God.”. Not an individual the whole nation is anointed for what ? They are anointed to be ” the light ” to the gentiles. Hear Yahweh says to Israel ” “You are my servant, Israel, in whom I will display my splendor.”. “It is too small a thing for you to be my servant to restore the tribes of Jacob and bring back those of Israel I have kept. I will also make you a light for the Gentiles, that you may bring my salvation to the ends of the earth.” (Isa.49:3,6) Jesus also said the the same thing to the Jews ” “You are the light of the world.” Mt.5:14. Rabbi Blumenthal, please tell what is the meaning of the Hebrew word “Messiah” ? Who is the messiah an individual or the nation of the chosen people of God ?
Wow: What goblygook Daniel pk. First of all I resent your continually saying “YOU JEWS (Aren’t you one?) or are you a gentile claiming to be one of the Lost tribes of Israel? . Remember Psalm 147:19,20 “He gave his word to Jacob and his statutes and ordinances to Israel, He has not dealt with any other goi (nation) gentile. As for his judgements THEY DO NOT KNOW THEM. Sorry I smell a little goy in both your attitude and your understanding. I hope one day you will stop criticizing Gods chosen people and possibly become one of us serving the true God.
The Messiah does redeems His people, He is the one to come (while the Jews have being there all alone), He is the suffering servant described in Isaiah 53, which was to die (cut off) for the sins of His people. Certainly He represents His people so in certain passages He and His people are spoken as one…but that does not need to take away from us the fact that a particular being is alluded (this Messiah Prince, aka the Prince of the Covenant, Your Prince, the Prince of Princes, the Prince of the Host, Michael your Prince…is shown in Daniel as being here on earth and as being also in heaven, even well before the saints get there, which speaks of His personal identity as divine and human(God became man, he is the same Angel/messenger of the Lord which through the Bible accepts worship). Also you need to remember that what the Messiah does for Israel …Israel cannot do for herself…(it was not the women/church who was going to break the head of the serpent, it was “her seed”, a single seed, that was to accomplish that..the Messiah)…
Mentioning the many things that The Messiah does for His people=
Dan 9:24 Seventy weeks are decreed as to your people, and as to your holy city,
to finish the transgression,
and to make an end of sins,
and to make atonement for iniquity,
and to bring in everlasting righteousness,
and to seal up the vision and prophecy,
and to anoint the Most Holy.
Only a sinless being, God made man, could be “the spotless lamb” that takes away the sins of the World, as described above,…these are done by the Messiah that was to come!!!
Shalom Daniel Paul!
Interesting but here you are confounding Israel with the Jews which is an error where the Jews can be part of Israel. Actually there is 2 Houses: House Yehudah(Jews) and House Israel(some of Xtians), both Houses in the End will be One. In the Orthodox Church there is a nation of priests, kings and prophets for in the Messiah we become like Him through the means of Holy Communion where the saints are House Israel chosen and protected by the Holy One.
Eliyah!
Of course there is a loop hole for the christian/messianic….the 1st and 2nd coming….Im surprised you haven’t gotten a response that goes along these lines..”at his second coming…he will do this or that.”…that is the typical response.
The truth is that….the relationship of God with His people is represented in the Bible as a wedding….an ancient Jewish wedding….
a)
the betrothal = as the FIRST COMING
b)
going back to His Father home(heaven) to prepare a place for the bride(the Church)
c)
return to fetch the bride and take her to the home He prepared in heaven= 2ND COMING
d)
at which point in time..the “wedding” takes place…
e)
according to Revelation (returning after the Millennium in the New Jerusalem to finally resettle the earth after it is rid of sin and purified in the lake of fire and brimstone)
I think that we should send them a challenge. since they want jews to change views. They should change their views about jebus taking in considerations1 what the prophets and Hashem think about jebus.The Abomination of jesus sacrifice:
One of the aspect of The Eternal Covenant aka TANACH wrongly and grossly name by Idolaters and ignorant as “the old covenant” is that it is the only religious and holy book that records the mistakes and sins committed by the people. This is followed by admonitions and warnings and reminders given by God via the prophets. This is obviously done in order these sins and mistakes are not committed again.
The concept of sacrificing a human is a barbaric sin rooted deep into pagan worship, condemned and forbidden by God. The God of Israel instructed His chosen people and the people willing to come into The Covenant not to get involved in such ABOMINATION! It is obviously clear The Eternal Covenant is called eternal for a reason. It is Eternal for ever and ever.
Although there are clear and perfect scriptures showing that The Torah is forever it is my desire not post them now, is homework for you xtians that don’t realize it or ignore it.
However I will show clear and perfect scriptures IN CONTEXT where the condemnation and forbidding of human sacrifices is clearly establish. I believe there is at least another place in Tanach where it shows this fact. If anyone knows please share.
Deut 12:30-31 Take heed to thyself that thou be not snared by following them, after that they be destroyed from before thee; and that thou enquire not after their gods, saying, How did these nations serve their gods? even so will I do likewise. Thou shalt not do so unto the LORD thy God: for every abomination to the LORD, which he hateth, have they done unto their gods; for even their sons and their daughters they have burnt in the fire to their gods.
It is interesting to notice that of all the abominations that God don’t want His people to copy; God decides to write only one at this point. It has to do with human sacrifices!
Deut 18:9-13 KJV. 9 When thou art come into the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee, thou shalt not learn to do after the abominations of those nations. 10 There shall not be found among you [any one] that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, [or] that useth divination, [or] an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a witch, 11 Or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a necromancer. 12 For all that do these things [are] an abomination unto the LORD: and because of these abominations the LORD thy God doth drive them out from before thee. 13 Thou shalt be perfect with the LORD thy God.
Lev 18:21. And thou shalt not let any of thy seed pass through the fire to Molech, neither shalt thou profane the name of thy God: I am the LORD.
Jer 19:3-5 KJV 3 And say, Hear ye the word of the LORD, O kings of Judah, and inhabitants of Jerusalem; Thus saith the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel; Behold, I will bring evil upon this place, the which whosoever heareth, his ears shall tingle. 4 Because they have forsaken me, and have estranged this place, and have burned incense in it unto other gods, whom neither they nor their fathers have known, nor the kings of Judah, and have filled this place with the blood of innocents; 5 They have built also the high places of Baal, to burn their sons with fire [for] burnt offerings unto Baal, which I commanded not, nor spake [it], neither came [it] into my mind:
Jer 7:30-31 For the children of Judah have done evil in my sight, saith the LORD: they have set their abominations in the house which is called by my name, to pollute it. And they have built the high places of Tophet, which is in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my heart.
It is interesting to notice that the concept of sacrificing children did not even come into God’s heart or mind! That they did such Abomination!
Jer 32:35 And they built the high places of Baal, which [are] in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through [the fire] unto Molech; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my mind, that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin
Psalm 106:37-38 Yea, they sacrificed their sons and their daughters unto devils, And shed innocent blood, even the blood of their sons and of their daughters, whom they sacrificed unto the idols of Canaan: and the land was polluted with blood. ]
In case there is any doubt that burning children is not a sacrifice, here God put them together.
Ezekiel 16: 20-22 Moreover thou hast taken thy sons and thy daughters, whom thou hast borne unto me, and these hast thou sacrificed unto them to be devoured. [Is this] of thy whoredoms a small matter,That thou hast slain my children, and delivered them to cause them to pass through [the fire] for them? And in all thine abominations and thy whoredoms thou hast not remembered the days of thy youth, when thou wast naked and bare, [and] wast polluted in thy blood.
2Ch 28:1-3 KJV. 1 Ahaz [was] twenty years old when he began to reign, and he reigned sixteen years in Jerusalem: but he did not [that which was] right in the sight of the LORD, like David his father: 2 For he walked in the ways of the kings of Israel, and made also molten images for Baalim. 3 Moreover he burnt incense in the valley of the son of Hinnom, and burnt his children in the fire, after the abominations of the heathen whom the LORD had cast out before the children of Israel.
Here King Ahaz did not do what’s right in the sight of The Lord! He Burn his children that is an Abomination to The Lord!
The word Abomination is perhaps the worst, strongest and one of the more powerful word in the Hebrew Bible, {{{dictionary.com Abomination: a vile, shameful, or detestable action, condition, habit, etc. intense aversion or loathing; detestation anything greatly disliked or abhorred}}}
It is perfectly understood and clear by the xtians that jesus was a human and is associated with sacrifice and burnt offerings even though he was never burnt or eaten YUK!
Friend you are assuming that Jesus or the christians themselves this “this sacrifice ” to themselves…and that is not so. Nor Jesus, nor the Christians endorse or do sacrifices …
so all your speach has not foundation since it cannot be applied to Jesus or the christians… Jesus was only the receiver of an ignominious death, somebody else killed Him….and we need not go there!!!
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FIRST OF ALL….ALL OF YOU HAVE FORGOTTEN THAT THE MESSIAH WAS FORETOLD TO COME WHILE THE 2ND TEMPLE WAS IN PLACE…THAT IS BEFORE 70 AD….
AND IT WAS JESUS THE MESSIAH/ANOINTED WHICH FULFILLED THE MESSIANIC PROPHECIES YOU ALL REJECT….DANIEL’S PROPHECIES KEY AMONG THEM….
TAKE FOR EXAMPLE…DANIEL 9
kEY ELEMENTS= A DECREE OF MEDOPERSIA TO RESTORE THE CITY AND TEMPLE (DESTROYED DURING THE ABOMINATION DESOLATION BY THE BABYLONIANS)
FROM THIS DECREE YOU ARE TO COUNT 69O WEEKS(483 PROPHETIC DAYS= 480 LITERAL YEARS) AND THIS WAS TO BRING YOU TO THE ARRIVAL OF THE MESSIAH…AND SO IT DID…IT POINTS TO JESUS HIS ARRIVAL AS TO THE POINT IN WHICH WAS ANOINTED BY THE HOLY SPIRIT AS A DOVE DURING HIS BAPTISM, WHICH IS THE STARTING POINT OF HIS MINISTRY…
SEE IT HERE=
DECREE= 457bc,decree of Artaxerxes, recorded in Ezra 7, the culminating decree which gave to Israel magistrates and judges and reliigious political rights….as such re-establishing the Israel once again as a nation under God….the restoration of Israel as a nation once again….
END 70WKS
——————-62WEEKS—————->–1WEEK—->END 70WEEKS
A—X/7yrs—>END 70WEEKS
27ad-31ad–>34ad/end.70wks
FROM THE DECREE(457BC) UNTO THE MESSIAH THERE WERE TO PASS 69 WEEKS(483 YEARS) ….WHICH MEANS THAT THE MESSIAH WAS TO ARRIVE AT THE END OF 69 WEEKS FROM THE DECREE….= WHICH IS 27AD AS STARTING HIS MINISTRY (counting from the MedoPersian decree of 457bc)
457bc———————>69week(483 years)———–>27AD/(A)-ARRIVAL OF THE MESSIAH
THE MESSIAH WAS SOON TO DIE AFTER THE 69 WEEKS (SAME AS AFTER THE 62 WEEKS)
(AND INDETERMINATE TIME, THAT IS ANYWHERE AFTER HIS ARRIVAL…BUT SINCE THE 70 WEEKS CONTAIN THE ATONEMENT AT THE DEATH OF THE MESSIAH, HIS DEATH BEING AFTER 69 WEEKS BUT WITHIN THE 70 WEEKS, TELLS US THAT THE MESSIAH WAS TO DIE WITHIN THE 70TH OR LAST WEEK….
END 70 WEEKS
close of probation
NEW.COVENANT->REJECTED BY JEWS
A———–X——–>END OF 70 WEEKS
A——1wk/7yrs—->END OF THE 70WEEKS
27AD—31AD——>34AD/END OF PROB.
N.COVENANT FOR ALL
IT is Jesus the one that confirms the New Covenant with the nation of Israel for 7 years, initial 3.5 years He does it, after dying in the midst of the week/31ad, then the later half of the 70th week this covenant is offered by His disciples solely to the Jews….
It is Jesus the one that stops the santuary and oblation, since at his death in the midst of the 70th week, 31ad He ratified the New Covenant, as such the Old covenant became obsolete, no more need of animal sacrifices…because Christ died once for all….(certainly the Romans destroy the temple soon thereafter, as induced by the people of the Prince that was to come, by the rebellion of the Jews the People of the Prince….the prince that they nevertheless rejected….
THANKS TO GOD….which opened the New Covenant for all at the end of the 70 weeks in 34ad…this New Covenant in Christ for believer Jews and believer Gentiles alike…from 34ad forwards
All of us…in Christ find our salvation….and our becoming part of the Israel of God…
Bru Ram– Dont worry, you are wrong even before you get to the counting of weeks.
9:24….The decree was NOT for a messiah. It was for YOUR PEOPLE and your HOLY CITY.
This has nothing to do with Jesus.
Furthermore. Jesus could NEVER have been “cut-off” if he was who you claim. Only bad people are cut-off…ever. Do a word study on cut-off. If Jesus was righteous, he would have been considered a Martyr or victim of murder. Not a cut-off person.
Bru Ram, it’s ironic that you put such an emphasis on the יִכָּרֵת מָשִׁיחַ part of Daniel 9:26, claiming that it was because of the “cutting off” of this “moshiach” that was the initiator of the “sixfold changes” mentioned in Daniel 9:24, including the “end of transgression/sin.”
You obviously identify this “cutting off” of this “moshiach” with the death of jesus…But what I find ironic about this is that jesus’s death did not accomplish any of the “sixfold promises” mentioned in Daniel 9:24!
Daniel 9:24. Seventy weeks [of years] have been decreed upon your people and upon the city of your Sanctuary to terminate the transgression and to end sin, and to expiate iniquity, and to bring eternal righteousness, and to seal up vision and prophet, and to anoint the Holy of Holies.
Did any of these things happen after your jesus died? Has iniquity been erased from Israel as this verse states concerning “your people”? (Which refer’s to Israel, Daniel’s people.) Do you still sin?
We both know that jesus’s death accomplished none of this…
So the question becomes, why in the world would you associate the promises of Daniel 9:24 with jesus’s death?! It is clear that jesus’s death did not accomplish any of these promises of the end of transgression among Israel or any other people.
So why do you insist that jesus must be this “moshiach” mentioned in Daniel 9:26?
It is interesting to note that Jews and Christians can agree on other passages referring exclusively to the Messiah! Here are a few:
Isaiah 11:1. And a shoot shall spring forth from the **STEM OF JESSE,** and a twig shall sprout from his roots.
Ezekiel 37:24. And **MY SERVANT DAVID** shall be king over them, and one shepherd shall be for them all, and they shall walk in My ordinances and observe My statutes and perform them.
Hosea 3:5. Afterwards shall the children of Israel return, and seek the Lord their God and **DAVID THEIR KING,** and they shall come trembling to the Lord and to His goodness at the end of days.
Jeremiah 30:9. And they shall serve the Lord their God and **DAVID THEIR KING,** whom I will set up for them.
There is one thing all of these verses have in common: They all use a “Davidic qualifier,” meaning that they all exclusively refer to the Davidic dynasty in some fashion. This is a good reason why Jews and Christians can all understand that these future prophesies refer to one person: Moshiach ben David.
But Daniel 9:24-27, nor the rest of the chapter, give us any indication that this “moshiach” mentioned has any connection to the Davidic dynasty, at least at face value…This lend credibility to the Jewish position that this “moshiach who was cut off” in Daniel 9:26 is not the promised Messiah son of David who is spoken of in the four aforementioned passages above that both Jews and Christians agree refer to the specific individual called “Moshiach ben David.”
In fact, the word “moshiach” is NEVER used to exclusively refer to the individual of “Moshiach ben David” in the Tanach…Ever! Usually, the individual of Moshiach ben David is referred to as “David” or “melech/king.”
So your interpretation of Daniel 9:26 actually runs contradictory to the rest of scripture…
Shalom
The decree was by Cyrus as recorded in Chronicles 2 36:22.
“And in the first year of Cyrus, king of Persia, at the completion of the word of the Lord in the mouth of Jeremiah, the Lord aroused the spirit of Cyrus the king of Persia, and he issued a proclamation throughout all his kingdom, and put it also in writing, saying:”
Therefore your timeline is in error and your entire premise regarding the time of jsus is also in error.
There were 3 decrees, forming a composite decree…all together meeting certain needs for the restoration of Jerusalem/Israel once again as city/nation under God. The truth is that it is the final decree which set the final touches (which go farther than building edifices or walls), this final decree of 457BC gave Jerusalem(and by default Israel) religious and political rights and prividleges which finally instituted, completly restored, Israel once again as a nation under God, in this final decree Israel was give the rights to rule herself, set up magistrates and judges, have prividleges , which gave finally Jerusalem/Israel powers to be a nation and institute its cultus as such once again serving God as a nation..
To fail to see the composite importance of each decree in its own sphere, and its culmination in the decree of 457bc described in Ezra 7…is at the heart of so many malinterpretation of the prophetic message about the post-babilonian restoration of Israel and and worst yet leading to the lack of seeing the true Messiah in the light of the prophetic message….Jesus as their true Messiah…which is both the lamb of God as the suffering messanger(first coming) and the Lion of Judah as the King of king and Lord of lords (at His second coming)….
EZRA 7= THE FINALIZING DECREE TO THE COMPLETE RESTORATION OF JERUSALEM/ISRAEL ONCE AGAIN AS A NATION UNDER GOD=
Ezr 7:11 And this is the copy of the letter which the king, Artaxerxes, gave to Ezra the priest, the scribe, a scribe of the words of the commands of Jehovah, and of His statutes to Israel:
Ezr 7:12 Artaxerxes, king of kings, to Ezra the priest, a scribe of the Law of the God of Heaven, perfect peace, and now:
Ezr 7:13 From me was made a decree that any one of the people of Israel, and their priests and Levites in my kingdom who volunteers to go up to Jerusalem, may go with you;
Ezr 7:14 since you have been sent by the king, and by his seven counselors to ask about Judah and Jerusalem, according to the Law of your God in your hand;
Ezr 7:15 and to carry the silver and gold which the king and his counselors have freely offered to the God of Israel, whose house is in Jerusalem:
Ezr 7:16 even all the silver and gold which you can find in all the province of Babylon, with the free offering of the people, and of the priests, freely offering for the house of their God in Jerusalem.
Ezr 7:17 Therefore of this you shall diligently buy with this silver: bulls, rams, lambs, with their food offerings, and their drink offerings, and offer them on the altar of the house of your God in Jerusalem.
Ezr 7:18 And whatever shall seem good to you and to your brothers to do with the rest of the silver and the gold, do that after the will of your God.
Ezr 7:19 Also the vessels which are given to you for the service of the house of your God, deliver before the God of Jerusalem.
Ezr 7:20 And the rest of the needs of the house of your God which falls to you to give, give it out of the king’s treasure house.
Ezr 7:21 And I, Artaxerxes the king, made a decree to all the treasurers who are Beyond the River, that whatever Ezra the priest, the scribe of the Law of the God of Heaven, shall ask of you, it shall be done exactly,
Ezr 7:22 to a hundred talents of silver, and to a hundred kors of wheat, and to a hundred baths of wine, and to a hundred baths of oil, and salt without stipulation.
Ezr 7:23 Whatever is commanded by the God of Heaven, let it be carefully done for the house of the God of Heaven. For why should there be wrath against the realm of the king and his sons?
Ezr 7:24 Also, we notify you that in regard to any of the priests and the Levites, singers, gatekeepers, temple-slaves, or ministers of this house of God, it shall not be lawful to impose toll, taxes, or forced labor on them.
Ezr 7:25 And you, Ezra, according to the wisdom of your God in your hand, you appoint judges and magistrates who may judge all the people who are Beyond the River; all who know the laws of your God; and those who do not know, you cause to know.
Ezr 7:26 And whoever will not do the Law of your God, and the law of the king, let judgment be executed diligently on him, whether to death, or to exile, or to confiscation of goods, or imprisonment.
WELL…HOW PRETTY…YOUR FORMAT DESTROYS THE VERY PROPHETIC TIMELINES THAT IDENTIFY JESUS AS THE MESSIAH….A PITY… (THAT POST ABOVE NEEDS CORRECTIONS OF ERROR INTRODUCED BY NO INCLUDING THE WHOLE TIMELINE….WELL…YOUR LOSS!!!)
WHO CAN I CORRECT THE ABOVE TIMELINES?…HOW CAN I CORRECT THE POST?
HI Blasater you said>>>>
Bru Ram– Dont worry, you are wrong even before you get to the counting of weeks.
That is what you think….which is not true….
>>>>>The decree was NOT for a messiah. It was for YOUR PEOPLE and your HOLY CITY.
This has nothing to do with Jesus.
OK….you need to understand this…
decree/restore Jerusalemarrival messiah
1) DECREE YES,his decree was to RESTORE THE CITY AND TEMPLE (A COMPOSITE DECREE WHICH INCLUDED 3 DECREES, Cyrus, Darius and Artarxerxes…being this last one of Artarxerxes in 457ad which completed what was to be decreed in the restorarion of the City and Temple….as the decree that culminated with the religious political restoration of Jerusalem, and by default Israel as a nation under God)…
2) BUT THE PROPHECY SAYS MORE THAN THAT….
SAYS THAT FROM THE DATE OF THAT DECREE(457bc) UNTO THE ARRIVAL OF THE MESSIAH there were to take place 69weeks(483p.days = 483 years)
2) From this decree to restore jersualem/Israel one is told that from that…
Dan 9:25 “…… that from the going forth of the commandment(DECREE) to restore and to build Jerusalem ***UNTO*** the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks(69WEEKS):
end of 70 weeks
——62weeks———->70thwk–> end of 70 weeks
A/27ad…
27ad= A = ARRIVAL OF THE MESSIAH
A= arrival Messiah(ANOINTED) at the end of the 69 weeks( from the date of the decree/457bc to His arrival) which bring us to 27ad as the end of the (69weeks/483 yrs)
457bc + 69wks(483yrs)—> 27ad (Messiah to arrive/be anointed)
AS SUCH…ONE NEED NOT BE CONFUSED….
1)
YES THE DECREE WAS FOR THE RESTORATION OF JERUSALEM(AFTER THE BABYLONIAN DESOLATION) GIVEN IN 457 BC…
2)
BUT THE PROPHECY ALSO SAYS THAT FROM THAT DATE(457bc) ONE NEEDS TO COUNT FORWARDS 69 WEEKS(483 YEARS) TO GET TO THE TIME OF THE ARRIVAL OF THE MESSIAH… this timeline brings us to 27ad as the date of the arrival of the Messiah, point in time when He was anointed as the Messiah by the Holy Spirit…in order to start His ministry…
457bc—+ 69wks(483yrs)—>27ad/A = (arrival of the Messiah)
In top of that the Messiah was to die AFTER his arrival at the end of the 69weeks from the decree (same as after the 62 weeks depending from which point one is counting, in this case 62 weeks counting from the end of the 7weeks)….
But “AFTER” IS A NONSPECIFIC TIME PERIOD from when was the Messiah to die, which is ANYWHERE FROM 27AD(END OF THE 69 WEEKS) FORWARDS… In order to localize His death in history, one needs to take in consideration the fact we are told that the 70 weeks are to include the atoning death of the Messiah….
iT IS THE FACT THAT ATONEMENT AT THE DEATH OF THE MESSIAH IS DESCRIBED AS TAKING PLACE DURING THE 70 WEEKS that we come to know that , as such the death of the messiah/his atonement takeing place “within the 70 weeks” but “after the 69 weeks”, putting this two prophetic facts means solely during the 70th week is when the Messiah was to die….
— X—->
means that the Messiah was to die(X) within the 70th week
-X/70TH->
The prophecy of Daniel 9 also says that during that 70th week the Messiah was to confirm the covenant(EVERLASTING COVENANT, SAME AS THE NEW COVENANT, THE OFFER OF THE MESSIAH) , WHICH BEING CONFIRMED MEANS THAT IT was to be given in force to the Jews and and was to be ratified by His death/blood during that 70th week…
But also says that the Old Covenant was to end right there in the midst of this same week/70th week….
How we know that..the Old Covenant ended at the death of the Messiah, in the midst of the 70th week..that is in 31ad ?
IN THE MIDST OF THE 70TH WEEK THE MESSIAH DIED….IN SO DOING RATIFYING THE NEW COVENANT AND ALSO STOPPING THE OLD COVENANT OF SACRIFICES AND OBLATION…
The prophecy that He(THE MESSIAH PRINCE) was to stop the “sacrifices and oblation”(meaning end the Old Covenant, old sacrificeal system) simply because the death of Messiah, His blood as saving us..no longer needs the help of animal sacrifices…
Y)
atonement/death of the Messiah= included during the 70 weeks=
Dan 9:24 Seventy weeks are decreed as to your people, and as to your holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make ATONEMENT
(AT THE DEATH OF THE MESSIAH=X) for iniquity.
Z)
THE ATONEMENT/DEATH OF THE MESSIAH TO TAKE PLACE AFTER THE 69 WEEKS=
A—-X…
Dan 9:26 And after sixty two weeks(SAME AS AFTER 69 WEEKS, Messiah shall be cut off,
SUMMARY=
Y + Z ABOVE= means the Messiah to die(X) within the 70th week/31ad, in so doing ratifying the NewCovenant and ending the Old Covenant of sacrifices and oblation…..
A——X/70th——-> end of the 70wks
A/27ad-31AD/X—>34AD/end of 70wks
A———31ad/X—>end of the 70wks
you said
>>>>Furthermore. Jesus could NEVER have been “cut-off” if he was who you claim. Only bad people are cut-off…ever. Do a word study on cut-off. If Jesus was righteous, he would have been considered a Martyr or victim of murder. Not a cut-off person.
Yes He was cut off…not because of Him….but because of our own “BADNESS”….by carrying our sins….simply because He was dying for our sins…dying for all humans He shed HIs blood.., regardless of their sins…in Him one finds pardon… yet one needs to accept that blood to find salvation…..
THE MESSIAH/SUFFERING SERVANT WHO WAS TO BE CUT OFF(DAN.9) IS ALSO DESCRIBED IN ISAI 53 AS ALSO “CUT OFF”…DYING AN IGNOMINIOUS DEATH…IN OUR BEHALF, SO THAT ALL OF US CAN FIND SALVATION BY ACCEPTING HIS BLOOD…THAT IS ALL WE NEED TO DO, ACCEPT HIM AND FOLLOW HIS STEPS…. NOTICE HOW HE WAS TO RESURRECT….AND WE ARE TO REJOICE IN HIM…HE SHALL SEE THE TRAVAIL AND SUFFERING AND DEATH HE ENDURED FOR US….AND BE SATISFIED….
Isa 53:4 Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.
Isa 53:5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.
Isa 53:3 He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.
Isa 53:4 Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.
Isa 53:5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed. …
Isa 53:8 He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was CUT OFF out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.
Isa 53:9 And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.
Isa 53:10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.
Isa 53:11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities. …
Yes…CUT OFF….The righteous servant, the Messiah was to be cut off, died, because of our sins so that we may have peace…salvation…..He shall justify many, for He shall bear their iniquities.
YES…JESUS IS THE MESSIAH….WHO CAME EXACTLY AT THE END OF THE 69 WEEKS(27AD) .AS TOLD BY COUNTING 69WKS(482 YRS) FROM THE DECREE TO RESTORE JERUSALEM(ISRAEL) OF 457BC DESCRIBED IN EZRA 7 ( A REAL HISTORICAL EVENT WHICH GAVE ISRAEL RELIGIOUS AND POLITICAL POWERS, A NATION ONCE AGAIN BEFORE GOD)…
AND WHO DIED SHORTLY AFTER IN THE MIDST OF THE 70TH WEEK, 31AD, AT WHICH POINT RATIFIED THE EVERLASTING COVENANT(THE NEW COVENANT) AND ANNULED THE OLD COVENANT OF SACRIFICES AND OBLATIONS, AS THE PROPHECY TOLD US….
THANKS TO GOD, DESPITE ISRAEL THE NATION REJECTING THIS NEW COVENANT IN CHRIST(BY END OF THE 70WKS, IN 34 AD), YET GOD AT THE END OF THE 70 WEEKS, OPENED THE NEW COVENANT TO ALL BELIEVERS, JEWS AND GENTILES ALIKE…IN HIM WE ALL FIND OUR SALVATION…..
Bru
You might find this helpful
https://yourphariseefriend.wordpress.com/2013/01/17/daniel-924-27/
AND TO CONCLUDE….THE PROPHECIES SAYS THAT THE MESSIAH WAS TO BE ACTIVE DURING THE TIMES OF THE 2ND TEMPLE …AS SUCH BEFORE ITS DESTRUCTION IN 70 AD.
THIS TELLS US…THAT THE MESSIAH ALREADY CAME…..YET HIS OWN DID NOT RECOGNIZE HIM….BUT HE DIED FOR ALL…YOU AND ME….TODAY ALL OF US CAN BENEFIT OF HIS SACRIFICE…WE JUST NEED TO ACCEPT HIM…HE IS SOON RETURNING AS KING OF KING AND LORD OF LORDS, IN THE CLOUDS OF HEAVEN IN GREAR GLORY AND POWER, SURROUNDED BY HOSTS OF ANGELS….YET MANY DO NOT KNOW THIS…
WHY TWO COMINGS OF THE MESSIAH FOR HIS CHURCH THE BRIDE…
WELL…just review the jewish wedding and you will understand the way the Lord accomplish things… =
First the engament in the house of the bride(1st coming)..
then the groom returns to His father house to make a mansion for His bride(the church)
then He returns to fetch his bride(the chruch) to take her with Him to His Father’s house, where he has already prepare her home…(2nd coming)…
and even more….Revelations tells us that Jesus and His bride(the church) is to return from heaven to finally settle this earth…and the Holy City, the New Jerusalem He has prepared for us…will finally settle (after some events, such as the getting rid of sin and sinners and bad angels, and purifying this earth in the lake of fire and brimstone)…yes He will finally settle His Holy City….right there in top of the Mount Olives…and finally the Israel of God/the Good Olive tree described in Romans11…which has both original branches/Jewish and grafted branches/gentiles…finally to settle the promise land, the land of Israel well purified of sins and enemies gone….Yes He will fulfilled the promises to His people the Israel of God, the Israel of faith….will inherit the purified land of Israel…we gentiles grafted into this tree, rejoicing together with the original Jewish branches that finally accept their promise Messiah/Christ….the one that Daniel 9 pin points as the sole Messiah….their Messiah…Amen!!! There is no time to waste…time to come to HIm, asking for pardon, believing in His goodness…after all He died for all…so that we may have life….Why do you think there was lamb who found pardon in the OT…same Jesus did in the NT…Jesus the lamb of God a gift to all nations….as told to Abraham…
By your account then when will all these gentiles become circumcised. That would be a prerequisite.
The circumcision was a sign given under the Old Covenant…
since the Old Covenant ended….there is no need to do it as a religious rite…(as a health issue, I even did it to my children…no problem there)…
The circumsicion was not required under the New Covenant…so was estipulated….
Bru Ram you bring up the New Covenant…
Going straight to the source, lets go to Jeremiah 31:30
“30. Behold, days are coming, says the Lord, and I will form a covenant with the **house of Israel and with the house of Judah,** a new covenant.
31. Not like the covenant that I formed with **their forefathers on the day I took them by the hand to take them out of the land of Egypt,** that they broke My covenant, although I was a lord over them, says the Lord.
32. For this is the covenant that I will form **with the house of Israel** after those days, says the Lord: I will place **My law** in their midst and **I will inscribe it upon their hearts,** and I will be their God and they shall be My people.
33. And no longer shall one teach his neighbor or [shall] one [teach] his brother, saying, “Know the Lord,” for they shall all know Me from their smallest to their greatest, says the Lord, for I will forgive their iniquity and their sin I will no longer remember.”
The passage says that the New Covenant will be made with the House of Israel and the House of Judah. This says nothing about the gentiles. I am aware that the NT attempts to reconcile this by saying that the gentiles were “grafted in” via Jesus. However, Jeremiah 31:31 explicitly states “Not like the covenant that I formed with **THEIR FOREFATHERS** on the day I took them by the hand to take them out of the **LAND OF EGYPT,** that they broke my covenant.” This New Covenant will not be with the gentiles because G-d did not make a covenant with the forefathers of the gentiles. Thus, this New Covenant will be made only with people who are under the Mosaic covenant. (The Jewish people.)
Verse 32 says ” I will place **My law** in their midst and **I will inscribe it upon their hearts,** What does it mean for G-d to inscribe His law upon the hearts of the house of Israel? This is explained in verse 33.
33. And no longer shall one teach his neighbor or [shall] one [teach] his brother, saying, “Know the Lord,” for they shall all know Me from their smallest to their greatest, says the Lord, for I will forgive their iniquity and their sin I will no longer remember.
The primary difference between the Mosiac Covenant and the New Covenant is that *G-d Himself* will put the law on all of the hearts of the House of Israel so that we will not have to TEACH the law to each other. You see, under the Mosaic covenant, we are required to teach the law to each other. I believe Deuteronomy 6:6-7 demonstrates this most clearly.
Deut 6:6. And these words, which I command you this day, **shall be upon your heart.**
Deut 6:7. **And you shall TEACH** them to your sons and speak of them when you sit in your house, and when you walk on the way, and when you lie down and when you rise up.”
It is important to note that even the Mosaic covenant was a covenant of the heart. The New Covenant is not different from the Mosaic covenant in this respect. Rather, as Jeremiah 31:33 explains, what makes the New Covenant “new” is the mode of transmission: G-d Himself will put the law directly on our hearts so that we will not have to TEACH the law to each other. This is a future prophesy that has not come to fruition yet. Deut 30:1-6 echoes this idea:
Deut 30:1. And it will be, when all these things come upon you the blessing and the curse which I have set before you that you will consider in your heart, among all the nations where the Lord your God has banished you,
Deut 30:2. and you will return to the Lord, your God, with all your heart and with all your soul, and you will listen to His voice according to all that I am commanding you this day you and your children,
Deut 30:3. then, the Lord, your God, will bring back your exiles, and He will have mercy upon you. He will once again gather you from all the nations, where the Lord, your God, had dispersed you.
Deut 30:4. Even if your exiles are at the end of the heavens, the Lord, your God, will gather you from there, and He will take you from there.
Deut 30:5. And the Lord, your God, will bring you to the land which your forefathers possessed, and you [too] will take possession of it, and He will do good to you, and He will make you more numerous than your forefathers.
Deut 30:6. And the Lord, your God, will circumcise your heart and the heart of your offspring, [so that you may] love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul, for the sake of your life.
As you can see by verse 4, this passage refers to the redemption after the final exile. Also, note that G-d says in verse 6 that He will “circumcise your heart and the heart of your offspring.” This is precisely what Jeremiah was saying in Jeremiah 31:33!
Jeremiah 31:33 And no longer shall one teach his neighbor or [shall] one [teach] his brother, saying, “Know the Lord,” for they shall all know Me from their smallest to their greatest, says the Lord,
This is in contrast to the Mosiac Covenant, which is discussed in Deut 6:6-7, where G-d instructs Israel to TEACH the Law to our offspring.
Deut 6:6. And these words, which I command you this day, **shall be upon your heart.**
Deut 6:7. **And you shall TEACH** them to your sons and speak of them when you sit in your house, and when you walk on the way, and when you lie down and when you rise up.
The very fact that we are having this debate right now is a testament to the fact that the New Covenant has not been made with anyone. You wouldn’t have to teach me and I wouldn’t have to teach you. (Jeremiah 31:33, Deut 30:6) It is a future covenant which has nothing to do with the death of jesus.
Shalom and G-d bless!
Bru Ram, you claim that circumcision is not needed today because “the old covenant ended.” Since this is your position, how do you reconcile this?
Ezekiel 40-48 describes the future Third Temple in detail and mentions that only Levitical Kohanim from the line of Zadok will be able to serve in the inner most parts of the Temple.
Ezekiel 44:15. But the priests, the Levites, the sons of Zadok, who kept the charge of My sanctuary when the Children of Israel went astray from Me, they shall come near Me to minister to Me, and they shall stand before Me to offer Me fat and blood, says the Lord God.
Ezekiel 44:16. They shall enter My Sanctuary, and they shall approach My Table to minister to Me, and they shall keep My charge.
Ezekiel 44:17. And it shall be, when they enter the gates of the Inner Court, they shall be clothed with linen garments and no wool shall be upon them when they minister the gates of the Inner Court and within.
This is a future prophesy about the Third Temple!
Moreover, G-d makes it clear that he does not want people of “uncircumcised flesh” to enter the Third Temple.
Ezekiel 44:9. So said the Lord God: No alien of uncircumcised heart **OR OF UNCIRCUMCISED FLESH** may enter My Sanctuary, of any alien who is in the midst of the Children of Israel.
Ezekiel 44:10. **ONLY THE LEVITES** who distanced themselves from Me when Israel strayed from Me after their idols, and they shall bear their iniquity.
Ezekiel 44:11. And they shall be ministers in My Sanctuary, appointed over the gates of the House; they shall slaughter the burnt offering and the sacrifices for the people, and they shall stand before them to serve them.
Clearly circumcision will be still relevant during the future Messianic era…
So you appear to be mistaken, Bru Ram…
Shalom
Yehuda Yisrael you wrote=
>>>>>Bru Ram, it’s ironic that you put such an emphasis on the יִכָּרֵת מָשִׁיחַ part of Daniel 9:26, claiming that it was because of the “cutting off” of this “moshiach” that was the initiator of the “sixfold changes” mentioned in Daniel 9:24, including the “end of transgression/sin.” You obviously identify this “cutting off” of this “moshiach” with the death of jesus…But what I find ironic about this is that jesus’s death did not accomplish any of the “sixfold promises” mentioned in Daniel 9:24!
and you quoted>>
Daniel 9:24. Seventy weeks [of years] have been decreed upon your people and upon the city of your Sanctuary to terminate the transgression and to end sin, and to expiate iniquity, and to bring eternal righteousness, and to seal up vision and prophet, and to anoint the Holy of Holies.
>>>Did any of these things happen after your jesus died? Has iniquity been erased from Israel as this verse states concerning “your people”? (Which refer’s to Israel, Daniel’s people.) Do you still sin?
>>>We both know that jesus’s death accomplished none of this…
No!! only you believe that way….
I do believe that Christ fulfilled all those sixfold changes, which effect will continue into eternity…
The understanding of what Jesus the Messiah did concerning those 6 changes He was to introduced can be understood within the framework of His mission(a new paradigm for the Jewish people that most do not understand). It is evident that many of the promises to Israel were conditional and due to their not fulfilling those requirements they did not received them). Yet in the Messiah’s own life these promises were to be fulfilled to the Israel of faith regardless of their faults and missteps of the nation of Israel…(evident of these missteps we see in the prophetic message which predicted the destruction of their city and temple once again, issue that their own prophecy in Daniel 9 identifies as a result of their own actions). Within that framework of understanding(new paradigm) then one can see how the Messiah’s own life had a dual purpose:
1) as representing Israel faithfulness and
2) as also the giver of the blessings
therefore by meeting all the requirements in Christ the promises are given, He Himself as the giver…as such was the Messiah to fulfilled the sixfold prophetic message….which is that…
70 WEEKS AS THE TIME OF PROBATION FOR THE NATION OF ISRAEL AND HIS CITY,
this 70 weeks(490 years) refers as a period “cut off” from the longer timeline presented in Daniel 8 told to last 2300em.( evening.mornings as days as per Gen. 1) =
as such the 2,300em/prophetic.days symbolizing 2300 years
see Eze 4:6 and Num.14;34 all precedents of this understanding, this principle which is that
1 prophetic day = 1 literal year in history..
2300 prophetic days = 2300 literal years in history…
remember…symbolic entities in prophecies inhabit symbolic time periods…
This first part of the 2300 years of Dan. 8 are the 70 weeks(490 years) of Daniel 9 which start in the OT times from the times of the MedoPersian Ram(decree of 457BC) extending to the times of the Jesus as the Messiah (the 70th week) as the last week=
Dan 9:24 Seventy weeks are decreed(CUT OFF) as to your people, and as to your holy city, =
1844ad
34ad
A/27ad/…X/31ad…..>34ad
………………….62wks………..>…………70thwk………>34ad
34ad
Now…think about what the blood of the sacrifices symbolized, then apply it to ultimate sacrifice the blood of the Messiah…the suffering servant which by dying was to justify many, blot out their transgressions/sins…..Isaiah 53=
1)to finish the transgression
…In the blood of Christ we find the end of transgression
2)and to make an end of sins,
…In the pardon found in the blood of the lamb, Christ the Messiah, sin ends…
3) and to make atonement for iniquity,
…It is the blood of the Messiah which in the New Covenant finds pardon for the sinners sin,
…therefore no sin in their part, which therefore finds reconcialiation/atonement back to God.
4)and to bring in everlasting righteousness,
…It is the pardon of Christ(His justification) and the power to not sin(sanctification via His Holy Spirit) which give us the everlasting righteousness of the Messiah, his character becomes ours…His faithfulness becomes ours…
5)and to seal up the vision and prophecy,
.. it in Jesus Christ the Messiah Prince who fulfilled the vision and prophetic message it brought
6)and to anoint the Most Holy.
…this could be interpretated two ways, one by His presence the Messiah Christ brough the glory prophecied to the 2nd temple as such anointing it with His presenced….
…and He also anointed the heavenly temple to start his expiatory and intercessory ministry in heaven, presenting His blood before God in our behalf, as such finding pardon for us, and atonement reconciliation back to God….(By whom do you think atonement for all of us was found, during all these close to 2000 years which there has not being an earthly temple or priesthood in Israel…if not by Jesus?)… Believe it or not….all your prayers asking for pardon and ours have found pardon and we atonement back to God…solely by the blood of Christ…
>>>So the question becomes, why in the world would you associate the promises of Daniel 9:24 with jesus’s death?! It is clear that jesus’s death did not accomplish any of these promises of the end of transgression among Israel or any other people.
That is your ideas….which are totally outside the framework of the New Covenant, which was promised initially to your people as the fulfillment of the promises and oath given to Abraham, even before to Adam of the seed that was to bring reconciliation back to God and the punishment of the transgressors…and their Antigod… New Covenant that many of your people at the personal level accepted and shared with us gentiles….yet as a nation Israel rejected. It is this New Covenant which open the understanding of what God was to accomplish with the coming of the Messiah and the salvation to all. Since Israel the nation rejected the New Covenant in Christ, thanks to God this covenant was open to all, Jews and Gentiles alike, which by believing in the Messiah find their salvation….
>>>>So why do you insist that jesus must be this “moshiach” mentioned in Daniel 9:26?
Simply because He is the one Daniel 9 points to…and identifies in history….
He is the only one that fulfiflled the messianic prophecies, of Isaiah 53 as the suffering servant in His death finding justification for us sinners, and as the Lion of Judah is to return(his second coming) as King of kings and Lord of lords to finally take possession of what He has bought with His blood….His kingdom and us….He has redeemed us….
………………..62wks…………………>A………..1week…………>end of the 70 weeks
A………..70thwk………..>end of the 70 weeks
A/27AD……X/31AD…..>34AD
Dan 9:26 And AFTER threescore and two weeks
shall Messiah be cut off(DIES)
but not for himself:
and “the people of the prince that shall come” shall destroy the city and the sanctuary;
and the end thereof shall be with a flood,
and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
NOTES ACCORDING VERSE ABOVE=
1) the Messiah is to die AFTER his arrival (arriving at the end of the 69wks counting from the decree, same as end of 62 weeks when counting from the end of the firsts 7 weeks,
since His ministry was short, He then dies in the MIDST of the 70th week, at which point He is the one that ratifies the New Covenant and in so doing STOPS THE OLD COVENANT OF SACRIFICES AND OBLATIONS in the midst of the last or 70th week…(see above diagram). Another fact that tells us that the Messiah dies within the 70th week is the fact that atonement/reconciliation was to take place within the 70 weeks…this means that the death of the Messiah was to take place within the 70 weeks since it is at His death that atonement is accomplished by His blood from there to all…, and also since His death is told to take place AFTER the 69 weeks…this then means=
FINDING ATONEMENT/DEATH OF THE MESSIAH WITHIN THE 70 WEEKS = DAN.9:24
THE MESSIAH THEN BEING CUT OFF AFTER THE 69 WEEKS= DAN. 9:26
THIS THEN MEANS= THE MESSIAH DIES WITHIN THE 70TH WEEK.
…..70TH………..>
2) NOT FOR HIMSELF….ALONE…
3) WHO IS “THE PEOPLE OF THE PRINCE TO COME”..? WHO IS THE PEOPLE OF THE MESSIAH TO COME?….WHO IS THE PEOPLE OF THE MESSIAH…..WHO WAS THIS PEOPLE THAT CAUSE THE DISTRUCTION OF THE CITY AND TEMPLE BECAUSE OF THEIR OWN REBELLION???? ANSWER= THE NATION OF ISRAEL, BY THEIR REBELLION were the ones responsible for the destruction of Jerusalem and its temple…and the diaspora brought about…because of the same…ultimately by their rejection of the true Messiah Christ…
but God has promised Israel, and in their Messiah these are to be fulfilled to the believer Jews, as original branches of the Good Olive Tree….and to believer gentiles grafted among them…
God found a way to redeem Israel and also the nations of the world…
(we all have sinned….and come short…even among the apostate christians is found The Antichrist, which has caused and will cause much harm, which is Papal Rome as the little horn, in power during the Mid Ages as occupying the later half of the 2300 years….)…so we humans really are saved by grace, a free gift,…which we accept by faith….is a gift not a wage….
we just need to believe, accept Christ as the true Messiah….and follow His steps….His righteousness(this also by the gift of His Holy Spirit in us)…..
4) yes…abominations, wars and desolations followed…
a) THE ABOMINATION DESOLATION OF THE JEWISH TEMPLE BY THE ROMAN EMPIRE/THE LITTLE HORN./CEASARS PHASE=
the little horn in Daniel 8, is the Roman Empire, its initial phase is its conquering horizontal phase of the Caesars, (Dan. 8:9 in 70ad for Jerusalem and its temple…and the for jews persecutions and diaspora…
Dan 8:9 And out of one of them came forth a little horn(ROME), which waxed exceeding great, toward the south(EGYPT), and toward the east(GREECE AND EASTERN NATIONS) and toward the pleasant land (ISRAEL 70AD).
.
-THE ABOMINATION DESOLATION OF THE MID AGES BY PAPAL ROME/LITTLE HORN A RELIGIOUS POLITICAL POWER, A RELIGIOUS KINGDOM=
Papal Rome (the continuation of the Roman Empire, second phase described in Daniel 8:10-12)during the Mid Ages…abominations and desolations in the Christian church,..the true people of God persecuted/inquistion…(true christians, and many other of God.s people..among them good Jewish people)…You see God has His people even among all nations, which are those that within the context of what they know follow His guidance….People are only responsible for what they know…
Dan 8:10-12 And it waxed great, even to the host of heaven(VERTICAL RELIGIOUS PHASE/PAPAL ROME); and it cast down some of “the host and of the stars”(THE SAINTS/DAN.8:24) to the ground, and stamped upon them. Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host(THE MESSIAH PRINCE, CHRIST), and by him the daily(MINISTRY OF PARDON)…..was taken away, and the place of his sanctuary(WHAT IT IS SYMBOLIZED THERE, THE GOSPEL AND THE LAW OF GOD) was cast down. And an host was given him against the daily sacrifice by reason of transgression, and it cast down the truth to the ground; and it practised, and prospered.
– THE TIME OF THE END ABOMINATION DESOLATION…PERSECUTION…BY PAPAL ROME
and this Roman Empire Papal phase is to revive, fully healed, during the time of the end (our modern times) to set up once again its abomination desolation, this time of the protestant churches, many of them led into apostasy by this power infiltration or overt actions, putting religious political laws (A NATIONAL LAW OF FORCED SUNDAY WORSHIP)…which the Pope is coming to USA endorsing it this Septermber as the mild law of Sunday as the day for the familiy, children and workers…which is simply his mark of supremacy..a false one….THE MARK OF THE BEAST….A ONE WAY TICKET TO ETERNAL DAMNATION….do not accept it…remain faithful to the 7th day Sabbath…AS PER REVELATION 13 AND 17.
ABOMINATION DESOLATION= SIN IN THE TEMPLE OF GOD, HIS CHURCH, (WETHER BY HIS OWN PEOPLE OR INVADERS) THIS IS AN APOSTASY WHICH LEADS TO ITS DESOLATION AND PERSECUTION/….DEFINED AS =
1) AN ATTACK AGAINST THE SANCTUARY AND ITS PRINCE/THE MESSIAH= and attack against all that is symbolized there which is the plan of salvation and against the law of God (changing the 7th day Sabbath for Sunday)
2) AN ATTACK AGAINST ITS HOSTS= the persecution/tribulation of God’s saints….
>>>>>It is interesting to note that Jews and Christians can agree on other passages referring exclusively to the Messiah! Here are a few:
Isaiah 11:1. And a shoot shall spring forth from the **STEM OF JESSE,** and a twig shall sprout from his roots.
Ezekiel 37:24. And **MY SERVANT DAVID** shall be king over them, and one shepherd shall be for them all, and they shall walk in My ordinances and observe My statutes and perform them.
Hosea 3:5. Afterwards shall the children of Israel return, and seek the Lord their God and **DAVID THEIR KING,** and they shall come trembling to the Lord and to His goodness at the end of days.
Jeremiah 30:9. And they shall serve the Lord their God and **DAVID THEIR KING,** whom I will set up for them.
>>>>>There is one thing all of these verses have in common: They all use a “Davidic qualifier,” meaning that they all exclusively refer to the Davidic dynasty in some fashion. This is a good reason why Jews and Christians can all understand that these future prophesies refer to one person: Moshiach ben David.
There lies the error of the Jews which is that they fail to see that lamb of God is the same as the Lion of Judah… = that the Messiah needed first to save us…redeem us…justifie us with His blood as the suffering servant described in Isaiah 53/the lamb of God that finds pardon for the sins of the world, that is for those that accept HIm…He needed to do so, to die, to find pardon for us, before He could return as the Davidic King, the root of David…KING of kings and LORD of lords….and possess his earthly kingdom and gives this possession for His people….
>>>>>But Daniel 9:24-27, nor the rest of the chapter, give us any indication that this “moshiach” mentioned has any connection to the Davidic dynasty, at least at face value…This lend credibility to the Jewish position that this “moshiach who was cut off” in Daniel 9:26 is not the promised Messiah son of David who is spoken of in the four aforementioned passages above that both Jews and Christians agree refer to the specific individual called “Moshiach ben David.”
Moshiach ben Joseph(THE LAMB OF GOD/SUFFERING SERVANT) is the same aka Moshicah ben David(THE KING OF kings and LORD of lords/THE LION OF JUDAH)….=the same person,…a common geneaology…just pointing to different facets of the Messiah’s mission…an initial redeemer justifier, and finally AS King possessing His kingdom…
You can look also to this Messiah…
HIS FIRST COMING= comes to His bride(the church) for the bethrotal…
(then returns to His Father’s house, that is to heaven, to prepare a mansion for His bride)
HIS SECOND COMING= then He returns to fetch her and take her to His father’s home where He has prepare a home for her…the New Jerusalem…the inheritance of the saints….
AFTER THE MILLENNIUM IN HEAVEN THEN…= after the millennium comes down (Christ and His bride together) return to earth in the Holy City Ship….to finally settle this earth made new(after sin, and sinners have being dealt with, and the earth has being purified in the lake of fire and brimstone)
The New Jerusalem settling in the Mount of Olive in the promised land of Israel…the promise fulfilled for the believers…for the Israel of God… both original Jewish branches …and for us grafted gentiles… (in fact for the House of Judah and the House of Israel…..wow…)
>>>>In fact, the word “moshiach” is NEVER used to exclusively refer to the individual of “Moshiach ben David” in the Tanach…Ever! Usually, the individual of Moshiach ben David is referred to as “David” or “melech/king.”
There is many anointed people in the Bible…Yet the prophetic message speaks of the Messiah to come which was to bring atonement, that is our reconciliation(atonement back to God as the lamb of God), and as such was to give us His kingdom(as the Lion of Judah)…….it is the same Messiah Prince, which fulfilling his mission is then crowned KING of kings and LORD
So your interpretation of Daniel 9:26 actually runs contradictory to the rest of scripture…
Shalom
Well….the last part of your post I did not get to answer… got posted before I finished…I do not know what I touched that did that….but since I do not know how to correct my post answering you…then t let me added my answer to it here…
FINAL SENTENCE…
I HAD WRITTEN=
it is the same Messiah Prince, which fulfilling his mission is then crowned KING of kings and LORD……**of lords**(part missing)…
you had said>> So your interpretation of Daniel 9:26 actually runs contradictory to the rest of scripture…
No…what you are saying is not so…
The fact is that you are not seeing the Messiah as being both, the lamb of God and also the Lion of Judah., this is a single individual with a complex mission, which requires an initial redeeming/atoning/ reconciliating phase of man back to God, and a follow up glorification of the saints at His return (whenever He sees fit)…the saints to received the kingdom promised to them….
Only the Messiah that reconciles us has the right to glorify us….
Man needed to be cleansed from sin by the blood of the lamb(suffering servant of Isaiah 53) before man could be glorified(to enter into the physical kingdom of God)…
Being different phases of the work of the Messiah, man has not seen them superimposed in the prophetic message…and that is easy to explain since they do not take place at the same time as different phases…in fact we know that close to 2000 years have passed since the death of the Messiah to when He return in glory in the near future….as such this phases are presented independently in the prophetic message….yet united as done by The Messiah….the Desire of Nations…
Let me show you something that will blow your mind….as it did mine….
The 7 day week…is an echo of the 7 MILLENNIAL WEEK that this earth is alloted to last as we know it…in sinful state….
Jesus first coming took place in the midst of that millennial week…end of the wednesday millennium…and Jesus second coming is to take place at sundown of the 6th or Friday Millennium and takes us to heaven at this point in time….the 7th millennium is the 7th Millennial Sabbath, we will have our 7th Millennial rest in heaven …as the commandments tells us….
THE CROSS…IN 31 AD…ACTUALLY TELLS AROUND WHEN THE SECOND COMING IS GOING TO TAKE PLACE….why? since Jesus death marks the end of the 4th millennium of this earth history, this taking place in 31ad…this means that 2000 years later will be the end of the 6th millennium…that is 2031ad….but since the time is going to be shortened…we really do not know the day, hour or year…we simply know it is soon….
the second coming= around the end of the 6th millennium…around 31ad…likely before…
So what do we have now….? simply that the New World Order, is the empire of Babylon the Great, the revived Roman Empire/Papal phase….and who is behind all these middle easterns wars which will extend to the rest of the world, is Papal Rome, hidding behind his frontman USA and his allies…a sobering thought….but thanks to God they will not overcome the saints…because Christ will liberate them at the second coming….
I calculate …anywhere between 5 to 15 years…and the Lord will be here….Christ the Messiah…ben Joseph…ben David…..the root of David….Our Messiah…
and guess what even the earth will rest the 7th millennial Sabbath before it is destroyed at the end of the 7th millennium….just like the land of Israel rest its sabbaths during the Babylonian deportation…(at this time for better reasons for us)…
2Ch 36:21 To fulfil the word of the LORD by the mouth of Jeremiah, until the land had enjoyed her sabbaths: for as long as she lay desolate she kept sabbath, to fulfil threescore and ten years.
This earth has not kept the Sabbath so far because man did not do as told…
but God has provided the 7th Millennial Sabbath for the rest of this earth…
even the earth to keep the law of God…
Why it is so…why the earth desolated during the 7th millennium….?
figure this out…
the saints = all in heaven…resting the 7th Millennial Sabbath…
the wicked= all dead, awaiting their sentencing judgment and execution in the lake of fire
the evil angels= in jail….
the earth = desolated keeping its 7th Millennial Sabbath…
just like Jeremiah describes it ……..
Jer 4:23 I beheld the earth, and, lo, it was without form, and void; and the heavens, and they had no light. I beheld the mountains, and, lo, they trembled, and all the hills moved lightly. I beheld, and, lo, there was no man, and all the birds of the heavens were fled.
I beheld, and, lo, the fruitful place was a wilderness, and all the cities thereof were broken down at the presence of the LORD, and by his fierce anger. For thus hath the LORD said, The whole land shall be desolate; yet will I not make a full end. (BECAUSE THE EARTH WILL BE THE EARTH AGAIN)
something to think about!!!
Shalom
I don’t know about anyone else but do you expect anyone to read ALL this. It’s difficult to read, to say the least. Pick one thing and focus on that. You have SO many different subject matters here that are incomplete and therefore lack continuity since a train of thought is lacking. It would take 5 -10 times the amount to respond and the continuity would be even more unreadable.
You are right….I tried to cover all the bases, because I did not know if I was to be blocked for what I was saying….which is basically that the 70 weeks(490 years) of Daniel 9 point to the Jesus as the Messiah when “the finalizing restoration decree of 457bc” is the one accepted as the one that got the wheels moving for Jerusalem/Israel to be restored, that is to become once again a nation under God.
The prophecy says that from the decree to restore Jerusalem (which is 457bc) UNTO the Messiah that was to come 69 weeks(483 years) were to take place.=
Dan. 7:25 “….that
FROM the going forth of the commandment(DECREE) to restore and to build Jerusalem
UNTO the Messiah the Prince
SHALL BE= “seven weeks, ***AND*** threescore and two weeks”:
(noticed 7wks plus 62wks in that order)= 49yrs,then 434yrs=483years
decree–+483yrs–>bring us to the arrival of the Messiah, his anointment/starts ministry>
(D)457bc—+483yrs–>Messiah arrives = 27ad
DECREE/RESTORATION—+69WEEKS(7wks+62wks)—->(A) ARRIVAL MESSIAH
DECREE/RESTORATION—+483 YEARS(49yrs+434yrs)->(A) ARRIVAL MESSIAH
27AD(A)=arrival of the Messiah
(A)= arrival of the Messiah speaks of His anointment to start His ministry. It was Jesus the one that was anointed by the Holy Spirit in His baptism and from there started His ministry…just like the prophecy foretold…
The death(X) of the Messiah is foretold to take place AFTER this arrival (at the end of the 69 weeks counting from the decree(D), same as after 62 weeks when counting from the end fo the initial 7 weeks…as such=
—-62weeks—>(A)
(A)
(Y)—62weeks->(A)=arrival of the Messiah…
ABOVE…
THE arrival of the Messiah can be understood as taking place after 69 weeks(483 years) when counting from the date of the finalizing decree(D=457bc)..
THE same point of the arrival of the Messiah can be understood as taking place at the end of the 62 weeks when counting from point (Y) which is the end of the initial 7 weeks listed…that is from point (Y) to point (A) = 62 weeks
D)–7–>(Y)—62weeks->(A)=arrival of the Messiah…
Therefore when saying that the Messiah was to die AFTER 62 weeks {when counting from point (Y) to point (A), }….it the end point as the arrival of the Messiah(A) is the same, as saying that the Messiah was to die AFTER 69 weeks (arriving to that point when counting from the date of the decree(D)…
THAT IS, the same “end point” is alluded when saying arriving at the end of the 69 WEEKS as when one says….”arriving at the end of the 62 weeks”…
by default…
the Messiah dying AFTER 62 WEEKS, means the same as dying AFTER 69 WEEKS…
AFTER the (A)arrival…..THEN COMES (X) the death of the Messiah =
(Y)—62weeks->(A) …X.
(A)…X
The death of the Messiah as happening AFTER 62 weeks(same as AFTER 69wks), is a nonspecific time period, which can mean that the Messiah was to die anytime after his ARRIVAL at the end of the 69 weeks…from the end of the 69 weeks…anytime thereafter…
Yet His death can be further localized when one realizes that the the atonement which is at the death of the Messiah is told to happen within the 70 weeks….
therefore….
“atonement/death of the Messiah during the 70 weeks”
but “after the 69 weeks”
means= the Messiah was to die within the 70th week…
THE ABOVE TOLD BELOW=
a)
Dan 9:24 Seventy weeks are decreed…”make atonement for iniquity”(MESSIAH DIES)
b)
Dan 9:26 after sixty two weeks(SAME AS AFTER 69WKS), Messiah shall be cut off(DIES)
(A)…X
a+ b= means the Messiah was to die within the 70th week…in the midst of it…
which is the time of Jesus death…in 31 ad…dying soon after His arrival( at the end of the 69 weeks in 27ad)
(A)–X/70th->end of 70WEEKS..
(A)27AD—X(31AD)—>34AD/end of the 70WEEKS.
as such He(and his disciples during the later half of the 70th week after his death)
is the one that confirms/gives in strength the New Covenant during that fateful 70th week
and He is the one that stops/ends the Old Covenant of sacrifices and oblations…while ratifying the New Covenant by His death…
THE PROPHETIC MESSAGE OF DANIEL IS SURE…
ITS UNDERSTANDING (AND THAT OF THE OTHER VISIONS) CAN ONLY BE DONE WHEN KEEPING THESE PARAMETERS FOR ALL SYMBOLIC VISIONS WHICH BY THE NATURE THOSE SYMBOLIC ENTITIES INHABIT SYMBOLIC TIME PERIODS…
KEY FOR THE PROPER UNDERSTANDING OF DANIEL’S PROPHECIES=
1) the day.year principle in which one day or its equivalent in prophecy equals a literal years in its fulfillment…(last prophetic time period to which this principle applies is the 2300 years which ended in 1844ad, counting from the 457decree….since the 70 weeks is the first part of the 2300 years, explained to Daniel as the times of the OT, (Israel)…while the later part of the 2300 years applies to the NT times(christian times).
1 prophetic day = 1 literal year
1evening.morning= 1 prophetic day (Gen.1) = 1 literal year
2300evening.mornings= 2300 prophetic days = 2300 literal years
1 prophetic week = 7 prophetic days = 7 literal years
1 prophetic month= 30 prophetic days = 30 literal years
42 prophetic months= 1260 prophetic days = 1260 literal years
1 time= 1 prophetic year= 360 prophetic days = 360 literal years
3.5 times = 1260 prophetic days = 1260 literal years
(the above calculated by the data given…as equivalents…eg the 3.5 times is also defined as 1260 prophetic days…so do the calculations).
2) The symbols used in the vision find their definition in the same vision or related visions, some in other related prophecies.
eg.
beast= kingdom= Dan. 7:23 (each empire with its own specific beast, except for Rome which is nonspecific called jsut “The Beast” actually the same as the dragon, this later symbol used both for Satan and for the Roman Empire…
horn= kingdom= Dan. 8:21-22 (NOT A PERSON), little, medium, Great ..horns..all kingdoms yet specific ones…
head= kingdoms..eg.4 heads of Greece divided empire
mountain = kingdom = the mountain in Dan. 2 as the kingdom of God…
3) Daniel and Revelation open each other meanings….
the Beast of Revelation is the same entity(Papal Rome) in Daniel as it is in Revelation.
because in Rev. 13:1-3 we are told that the symbols used in the book are the sames used in Daniel 7…the lion, the bear, the leopard and the dragon….all forming the next in the sequence…The Beast as the inheritor of the Empire of the Dragon…the Empire of the Sun…Rome….Papal Rome as the continuation of the Roman Empire…
but that is another story…another prophecy…
Any way…hope this is clearer…
God bless
No…way ….I cannot help you with diagrams because the format of your program messes them ….does not matter how I write them….
so …follow the message and make your own diagrams…that helps to see the message better…
With all your date manipulation it is clear you started from an assumption of a date corresponding to the events in question and counted back from there and chose That year for the beginning.
Daniel is quite clear in his writing that the time frame has a definite starting point, which is the result of his pondering of what Jeremiah had written, that is, the 70 years by the “word” of Jeremiah.
We have a clear and Unambiguous starting point, which is recorded by Ezra,
“In the first year of Cyrus king of Persia, upon the conclusion of Hashem’s prophecy by the mouth of Jeremiah, Hashem aroused the spirit of Cyrus king of Persia and he issued a proclamation throughout the kingdom and in writing”.
It is also written by Isaiah, who speaks of Cyrus fulfilling an edit of Jerusalem AND the Temple.
“Who says of Cyrus, He is my Shepherd, He will fufill All My desires, to say of Jerusalem, It shall be built, and of the Temple, It shall be established. Thus said Hashem to His “anointed one”, to Cyrus.
In the final words of the Chronicles it says also,
“In the first year of Cyrus king of Persia, upon the expiration of Hashem’s prophecy spoken by Jeremiah, Hashem aroused the spirit of Cyrus king of Persia, and he issued a proclamation throughout his kingdom – saying “Thus said Cyrus king of Persia: Hashem G-d of Heaven, has given to me all the kingdoms of the earth, and He has commanded me to build Him a Temple in Jerusalem, which is in Judah. Whoever there is among you of His entire people – may Hashem his G-d be with him and let him go up.”
Therefore the date you have chosen to be your starting point negates your entire premise of Daniel and falls far short of any accuracy. There are the seven weeks, 49 years, to expire and the “word” to return and build Jerusalem is issued, which is by the anointed Cyrus, as written by Isaiah.
Then for 62 weeks the Temple will be built, on and off again, in troubling times.
Then After those 62 weeks, that final week includes a time period of the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple. During the middle of this time period (week) the prince will abolish Temple sacrifices and offerings.
Now, none of this “Fits” into your schedule of events. You have twisted and turned those few verses upside and sideways in order to put Jsus into the picture.
Youuuuuuu attempts at “prophetic days, years” etc are mere imaginations. There is no basis for it but only to calculate some dates. It reminds me of the routine that proves 7 X 13 = 28. That routine by Abbott and Costello is just as valid as the methods you are using. Who would even entertain such an idea as a “prophetic month” and a year being “360 days”. This is utterly ludicrous. If you are trying to formulate a calendar that compares to a Jewish calendar then you would have to add a month. Given that it is nothing but sheer nonsense. Therefore there is No calculations to do. All you have done is Define your Own Rules and then applied them to events and THEN call it proof.
which by dying was to justify many, blot out their transgressions/sins…..Isaiah 53=
Bru Ram,……..BUT!! Isaiah 53 DOES NOT SAY ANYONE DYING JUSTIFIES THE MANY.
IT EXPLICITLY SAYS “BY HIS KNOWLEDGE MY SERVANT SHALL JUSTIFY MANY”
Internally the book of Isaiah refers to Israel (collectively) as the servant numerous times throughout the WHOLE book. Read Isaiah 54, it destroys ANY NOTION THAT G-D CASTS off as conditional the promises to his people. Tell me, have the people Israel dispossessed Gentiles of cities as a reward from G-d because of Jesus’ coming? (READ ISAIAH 54)
Concerned reader….you wrote >>>Internally the book of Isaiah refers to Israel (collectively) as the servant numerous times throughout the WHOLE book.
And I do not doubt it…there is a sense that what Israel could not do, it is done by its representative the Messiah…The Messiah representing Israel was able to fulfilled the requirements for salvation in which Israel failed, and it is because of Him who carry the battle to the end, that one can be saved…His victory is the victory of the Israel of Faith…
which even in the Old Testament as in the New Testament are the faithful…
The nation of Israel could not saved itself because of her sins,
but in her Messiah, His victories become her victories…
But in Isaiah 53 what the Messiah does for Israel is shown…
nobody can save oneself, simply because we are all sinners…
Only the Messiah was sinless, spotless lamb, and it is because of this
that He could die for her sins, taking our place…so that we could live…
HERE THE PROPHET IS REFERRING TO THE MESSIAH AS AN INDIVIDUAL=
Isa 53:2 …. and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him.
WHO IS THE “WE” BELOW?…= THE NATION OF ISRAEL, AND THEY ARE SHOWN REJECTING THEIR MESSAIAH=
Isa 53:3 He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and ***WE** esteemed him not.
IF THE SERVANT(MESSIAH) CARRIES THE INIQUITY OF “US ALL”(MEANING ISRAEL)….WHY THEN THAT ISRAEL IS THE ONE THAT IS CARRYING HER OWN INIQUITY…….that goes against to what it is written…
Isa 53:6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.
THE MESSIAH AS THE LAMB OF GOD…DYING FOR THE SINS OF HIS PEOPLE=
Isa 53:7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.
THE SERVANT/MESSIAH IS CUT-OFF(DIES) FOR HIS PEOPLE, SEE DAN. 9:26)=
Isa 53:8 … …. for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.
Dan 9:26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off,
IF HE DIED…WHY CAN HE SEE THEN THE TRAVAIL OF HIS SOUL? SIMPLY BECAUSE HE RESURRECTS….
Isa 53:11a He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied:
BY HIS KNOWLEDGE SHALL THE MESSIAH JUSTIFY MANY…
HOW? BY USING THAT KNOWLEDGE……
BUT DO NOT STOP THERE…IT ALSO SAYS SOMETHING MORE…
WHICH IS THAT HE BEARS THEIR INIQUITY UPON HIMSELF…
HE TAKES THEIR SINS AWAY AND IN HIS DEATH, PAYING THE SENTENCE FOR THOSE SINS, HE THEN FINDS ATONEMENT/RECONCILIATION OF THEM BACK TO GOD….
REMEMBER…JUSTIFY …MEANS FINDING PARDON…
AND HOW? THE VERSE ITSELF ANSWERS THAT QUESTION BY SAYING “FOR HE SHALL BEAR THEIR INIQUITIES”….
AND BY DYING HE PAYS THE SENTENCE OF DEATH THAT WAS THEIRS(ISRAEL) BECAUSE THOSE SAME SINS…
Isa 53:11by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; ****for he shall bear their iniquities. ****
Isa 53:12…..and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.
WE HAVE TO COME TO TERMS WITH THE FACT…THAT THERE IS SOMEBODY ELSE BEARING THE INIQUITY OF “US” WHICH IS ISRAEL AS THE CONTEXT TELLS US..
(the prophet Isaiah speaking, when saying “us” he is including all Israel and himself, the Israel of faith)
Israel here in this chapter of Isa 53…is no where carrying her own sins…
somebody else is…is the Suffering Servant…it is the Messiah(finding pardon for the sins of the people, dying by taking their sentence so that they find life, as such finding pardon for their sins and eternal righteousness…all 6 described in Dan. 9:24)
So we see a dual nature of the Messiah….representing Israel itself and being Israel’s savior…where she could not go….He went….
Where the human limitations of the people of God could not bring them…
yet the Messiah taking her place, paying her debt and finding freedom for her, did accomplish it…found her salvation…
NOTE= the wages of sin is DEATH..and because we sinned that sentence of death was ours, (the sentence of death for all sinners). By the Messiah’s death, as such dying in our place, is that the Israel of faith finds her perfection and as a result her atonement/reconciliation back to God…that is her salvation… …
given the circumstances known to all…it is evident that even to those the Messiah found a solution…which is that the Messiah despite being reject, He still accomplish salvation for the Israel of faith, for all those early Jewish believer original branches of the Israel of faith, and in His goodness all nations found salvation….as promised to Abraham…
as such we gentiles partake of His goodness….we grafted among the original Jewish branches of the Israel of faith….the same Olive Tree of the OT, is ours….
only a little trimming and grafting of branches was all it took place as a result of the fulfilled New Covenant….
All those promises to Israel are fulfilled in her Messiah, but not in this earth as we know it…but in the renovated earth..purified earth…the earth made new…=
Notice that it is in top of Mount Olives….where the New Jerusalem coming from heaven will settled.. The land of Israel was, is and will be the promised Land, the inheritance of the Israel of God…the Israel of Faith…as much for original believer Jews and for us grafted believer gentiles…
Zec 14:4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
Zec 14:5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains;
Zec 14:9 And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.
Yes…the Old Testament promises will fulfilled…but within the context of the New Covenant…and within the context that what Israel the nation could not do…
It was done by the Son of Man, the Messiah, the Son of David…Jesus as the Messiah, in which divinity found its expression in man. You see one man brought sin to this world, and one man has brought our salvation…
The truth is that only the God HImself could save us, since He only is perfect and created us…(no man is perfect, therefore they cannot atone, just like a spotted lamb was rejected)…
only our creator could die for us…but as a creator He could not die…
so He had to become man so that He could die as a man and save us as our creator,
our God…
>>>>>>Read Isaiah 54, it destroys ANY NOTION THAT G-D CASTS off as conditional the promises to his people. Tell me, have the people Israel dispossessed Gentiles of cities as a reward from G-d because of Jesus’ coming? (READ ISAIAH 54)
The truth is that Israles promises were conditional in her keeping the side of the bargain..
but Israel failed…and despite many ups and downs as a result…
yet God in His love found a solution even to Israel’s own disobedience..
It is in the Messiah, representing Israel, yet conquering where Israel could not do it..
it is in this conquering Messiah that all those condinional promises are eliminated and find its fulfillement…
Where Israel fail, her Messiah triumph….and in Him God’s blessings are hers…
…
(READ ISAIAH 54)
Concerning the Old Testament prophetic message….one really need to come to this understanding, which is that these prophecies need to be understood within a new paradigm which is the New Covenant, and their fulfillment needs to be understood with the new changes introduced by the New Covenant in Christ….
because truth be told things are no the same as they were in the OT…
just one point I want to remarked…(and perhaps this was the ultimate plan of God all along, which will mean that despite the local promises given to Israel, the outlook was always more encompassing)….
Anyway this is the point that I want to make, point that many christians even do not know or forget… = Which is that fulfillment of God’s promises for the Israel of God, although certainly starts in this world…yet its complete fulfillment needs to await for the return of the Messsaih to set His physical kingdom here on Earth, but not in this earth as we know it….but in a purified renovated earth, the earth made new…It is there that the saints should look forwards for the fulfillment of God’s promises for them….
I can only say that that the land of Israel at this time is in turmoil, and as it is, it will not become the center of God’s kingdom on earth…first it needs to be purified and made new.(just like the rest of the world) before the Messiah sets His kingdom here on earth…
and sets the New Jerusalem with the 3rd temple here on earth…
(the 3rd temple is heavenly, is in the heavenly New Jerusalem, settling in the earth made new, in the land of Israel as renewed…….not in this earth as we know it)
The present idea that Israel “as it is” will be the promised center of the world fails to take into account many prophecies that say otherwise…Perhaps those of us which have accepted the New covenant, and the prophetic message shown in Revelation can have an easier look to what lies ahead because we look within the context of this New paradigm which is the New Covenant…which is a new paradigm to what lies ahead…
(but even this is not completely so, because some Christians believers…still have set their eyes in the nation of Israel as we know it, which is not what the prophetic message really tells us…)
first have to be a purification of hearts and body….(our salvation in the Messiah)
then will come the purification of this earth…
and finally the perfect pure kingdom of God will settle in this earth…!!!
Please….What the Messiah does with that knowledge is as important as the knowledge itself…
You need to understand what does your sacrificial system meant and apply that to the lamb of God who bore your sins…HOW WAS THE LAMB OF GOD ABLE TO JUSTIFY YOU BY ERASING YOUR SINS, BY FINDING PARDON FOR YOUR SINS….what did the lamb do? simply shed his blood…
Isa 53:5 But He was wounded for our transgressions; He was bruised for our iniquities; the chastisement of our peace was upon Him; and with His wounds we ourselves are healed.
Isa 53:6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have each one turned to his own way; and Jehovah made meet in Him the iniquity of all of us.
Isa 53:7 He was oppressed, and He was afflicted, but He did not open His mouth. He was led as a lamb to the slaughter; and as a ewe before her shearers is dumb, so He opened not His mouth.
Isa 53:8 He was taken from prison and from justice; and who shall consider His generation? For He was cut off out of the land of the living; from the transgression of My people, the stroke was to Him.
Isa 53:9 And He appointed Him His grave with the wicked, but He was with a rich man in His death; though He had done no violence, and deceit was not in His mouth.
Isa 53:10 But Jehovah pleased to crush Him, to make Him sick, so that If He should put His soul as a guilt offering, He shall see His seed; He shall prolong His days; and the will of Jehovah shall prosper in His hand.
Isa 53:11 He shall see the fruit of the travail of His soul; He shall be fully satisfied. By His knowledge the righteous One, My Servant, shall justify for many, and He shall bear their iniquities.
Isa 53:12 Because of this I will divide to Him with the great, and with the strong He shall divide the spoil; because He poured out His soul to death; and He was counted with those transgressing; and He bore the sin of many, and made intercession for those transgressing.
BR
Are you part of The Fuel Project?
Hi Larry…
No I am not .
I am SDA.
God bless!!!
119 ministries
I like both of those ministries but they fall short in some aspects….
…such as many of them do not identify the Antichrist as Papal Rome…
…and some of them reject the 7th day as the Sabbath……
The SDA message does both……=
1) recognizes Papal Rome as the Antichrist that was to change God’s law(Dan. 7:25).
It is evident that Sunday is the Mark of Supremacy of Papal Rome as they themselves acknowledge. It so happens, that Daniel 8 identifies Papal Rome as the Beast, and therefore Sunday as her mark of supremacy, means that this Sunday is also the Mark of the Beast/Papal.Rome, the one spoken of in Revelation..
2) accepts the 7th day Sabbath, and all the law of God as binding….
and the 7th day Sabbath as the sign of God for His people…(Eze 20:20)
(which includes us pagans since were grafted into the Israel of Faith, as told in Romans 11)
NOTE:
most protestants reject the 7th day Sabbath, preferring Sunday, not knowing that that day of Sunday worship came as a result of an infiltration of paganism in the christian church( because the pagans venerated the first day of the week)…this change of the law of God as done by the Antichrist little horn, is also foretold in the prophetic message of Daniel 7…
God bless!!!
It’s rather interesting how you refer to Papal Rome. Surely you are aware that everything you have been posting has its origins from that original catholic church. Where do you surmise Your bible Came from. It was canonized by that church. Much of the creed the protestants hold dear Also Came from that church. If that church is the epitome of evil how can you put your trust in anything it has disseminated.
Blu Ram, oncerning Isaiah 53, in order to determine who the servant is, we need to look at the context. Isaiah 49:3-6 is a good place to start.
Isaiah 49:3. And He said to me, “You are My servant, Israel, about whom I will boast.”
Isaiah 49:4. And I said, “I toiled in vain, I consumed my strength for nought and vanity.” Yet surely my right is with the Lord, and my deed is with my God.
Isaiah 49:5. And now, the Lord, Who formed me from the womb as a servant to Him, said to bring Jacob back to Him, and Israel shall be gathered to Him, and I will be honored in the eyes of the Lord, and my God was my strength.
Isaiah 49:6. And He said, “It is too light for you to be My servant, to establish the tribes of Jacob and to bring back the besieged of Israel, but I will make you a light of nations, so that My salvation shall be until the end of the earth.”
So how is this reconciled? How can Israel bring back Israel? The answer is simple! Isaiah 49:3 refers to a specific part of Israel, namely the righteous remnant. (G-d promised a righteous remnant of Israel throughout all generations.) Verse 5 refers to the remnant bringing back the rest of Israel back to righteousness. And finally, verse 6 refers to the newly restored Israel being “light to the nations” through the revelation of truth through Hashem.
In other words, this is a two step process:
1. The righteous remnant of Israel will bring back the rest of Israel to righteousness. (Isaiah 49:3-5)
2. The newly restored nation of Israel will serve to be a “light to the nations.” (Isaiah 49:6)
So ultimately, the nation of Israel is the servant who will be “a light unto the nations.” However, in order to get to that point, the righteous remnant of Israel will first gather back the rest of Israel back to Torah. It’s a two step process.
The servant is the righteous remnant of ISRAEL.
Isaiah 51:7. Hearken to Me, you who know righteousness, a people that has My Torah in their heart, fear not reproach of man, and from their revilings be not dismayed.
This is yet another verse which highlights the suffering of G-d righteous servant, Israel. Isaiah 54 even refers to the “SERVANTS of the Lord”!
Isaiah 54:17. Any weapon whetted against you shall not succeed, and any tongue that contends with you in judgment, you shall condemn; this is the heritage of the SERVANTS OF THE LORD and their due reward from Me, says the Lord.
Isaiah 52:15 describes the gentiles kings who will shut their mouths because of their astonishment of Israel’s vindication by Hashem:
Isaiah 52:15 So shall he cast down many nations; kings shall shut their mouths because of him, for, what had not been told them they saw, and [at] what they had not heard they gazed.
Micah 7:16-17 echoes this sentiment:
Micah 7:16. Nations shall see and be ashamed of all their might-they shall place a hand upon their mouth; their ears shall become deaf.
Micah 7:17. They shall lick the dust as a snake, as those who crawl on the earth. They shall quake from their imprisonment; they shall fear the Lord, our God, and they shall fear you.
Also, Isaiah 60:14 speaks of the future Israel who was previously despised by the nations as being vindicated at the end of days, also echoing in line with the suffering/despised servant of Isaiah 53:
Isaiah 60:14 And the children of your oppressors shall go to you bent over, and **THOSE WHO DESPISED YOU** shall prostrate themselves at the soles of your feet, and they shall call you ‘the city of the Lord, Zion of the Holy One of Israel.
So there you have it. The suffering servant of Isaiah 53 ultimately is the nation of Israel.
Shalom
I meant to say…. point 2 above at the end, **which includes us “gentiles believers” **, not us “pagans” as I wrote.. since we are speaking of converted believers..although gentiles..
BR
But you do believe in the trinity, right. That would be pagan wouldn’t it?
such as many of them do not identify the Antichrist as Papal Rome… SO BR, LOGICALLY, the HISTORIC CHRISTIAN JESUS IS THE FALSE CHRIST.
If Rome is antichrist, so are her children THE PROTESTANT CHURCHES. YOU WOULDNT HAVE THE NT WITHOUT THE EASTERN OR WESTERN ROMAN IMPERIAL CHURCH.
Does Jesus meet the NT conditions of the antichrist?
Claims divinity (2 Thessalonians)
Requires that all men accept his mark (revelation)
Changes set times and the law disregarding the G-d of his fathers, (Daniel 7:25)
OPEN AND SHUT
Just following.
Why:)
🙂
ORIGINS OF THE HUMAN ANTICHRIST/aka. THE MAN OF SIN
(CERTAINLY UNDER THE CONTROL OF THE SPIRITUAL ANTICHRIST WHICH IS SATAN)….
This MAN OF SIN, or human Antichrist is rooted in a christian apostasy which crowned a ruling class in their midst….forming a religious kingdom…
THE PROPHETIC MESSAGE IDENTIFIES THE ANTICHRIST AND LOCALIZES ITS APPEARANCE IN THE HISTORIC TIMELINE, BEING THE KEY PROPHECY DANIEL 8, WITH IMPORTANT BACK-UP BY DANIEL 7, 2, 11-12 AND REVELATIONS PROPHECIES….
So starting with Daniel 8, in which THE VISION is told to last 2300evening.mornings…..knowing that the duration of the timeline/2300em
is inhabited by all the elements/entitites shown in the vision…not just one entity..
(important= it is the total vision the one told to last 2300em)…within that context…then=
7 key points which open the door to this prophetic understanding have to be accepted…which are=
1) a symbolic entity in prophecy inhabits symbolic time periods
that is = a prophetic day (or its equivalent) symbolizes a year in history, as precedent Eze. 4:6 and Num. 14:35=
1 prophetic day = 1 literal year
2) the symbols find their meanings in the same or related prophecy, usually within Daniel or Revelation…
3) the starting point of the vision, first entity inhabiting the timeline therefore carries the starting point of the prophetic timeline
4) the ending point is simple mathematics= which is adding the timeline period to the starting point one arrives to the ending point
starting point + timeline—-> final point
5) consecutive elements in time form an uninterrupted timeline.
6) the identified entities need to be correlated with history in order to identify the “unknown entity in their midst”
7) FINALLY….the foretold actions of the identified “unknown entity” need to correlate with the historical record about that entity in order to confirm its identity….
WITHIN THAT CONTEXT …LET US STUDY DANIEL 8 IDENTIFICATION OF THE ANTICHRIST….
1) THE TIMELINE = the 2300 evening.morning timeline, which is told to be the lenght of the vision, needs to be understood as 2300 prophetic days….as supported by Genesis 1 in which each evening.morning is called a day…
2300evening.mornings = 2300 prophetic days
2) Since = 1 prophetic day = 1 literal year
therefore = 2300 prophetic days = 2300 literal years..
therefore= the prophetic timeline in Daniel 8 symbolizes 2300 years in history
PRECEDENT =Eze 4:6 “…. each day for a year.”
3) THE STARTING POINT OF THE 2300 YEARS TIMELINE=
THE VISION’S TIMELINE IS INHABITED BY 3 ELEMENTS:
1ST= THE RAM= King(kingdom) of MedoPersia
2ND= THE GOAT= KING(KINGDOM) of Greece
3RD= THE UNKNOWN LITTLE HORN=????
IN THAT ORDER….( the unknown Little Horn is shown occupying the later part of the 2300 yrs, keep this in mind for its identification).
goat/GREECE—–>little.horn/????>
The starting point of the 2300 years timeline is found in the first entity in the series of symbols…. the first one being “the 2 horned ram” identified in the same prophecy as the king(kingdom) of MedoPersia(~500bc), whichis followed by a (1–>4) horned goat and finally presented as an unknown is the “Little Horn”…?
starting point(S.P)= times of ram MedoPersia = ~500bc
ending point= starting point + 2300 years timeline = ~1800ad
~1800ad
goat/Greece—>little.horn/????
4) DEFINITION OF SYMBOLS
KING= KINGDOM = DAN. 7
BEAST= KINGDOM= DAN. 7:23
SPECIFIC BEAST = SPECIFIC KINGDOM
HORN= KINGDOM= DAN. 8:21-22
KING= BEAST= KINGDOM.
Dan 7:17 These great beasts, which are four, are four kings, which shall arise out of the earth.
Dan 7:23 Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth,
SYMBOLIC VISION= ANIMALS AND HORNS ROAMING….
(notice the verses above that say= that the 4 beast are 4 kings, representing kingdoms as can be seeing when the 4th beast is called also the fourth kingdom, which means that the first, second and third beasts were also kingdoms…therefore the word king of this or that…in fact is speaking of the kingdom of this or that….as can be gathered above…since = king is shown to be kingdom…just like a beast is shown to symbolized a kingdom”…in symbolic prophecy the symbols king and beasts never symbolized a single individual, but the whole nation including their kings…
EXPLANATORY PART OF A VISION= USUALLY AN ANGEL GIVES THE DEFINITIONS OF THE SYMBOLS AND WHAT IS HAPPENING IS TOLD…
NOTE CONCERNING THE WORD “KING”= when the vision is explained the word “king” could go either way(SPEAKING OF ITS KING OR THE KINGDOM) and therefore needs to be understood within ITS context…. Basically the prophetic symbols speak of kingdoms and their relations…organization or alliances or oppression of some others…
THE SYMBOL = THE BEAST OR THE LITTLE HORN= ARE KINGDOMS= THEREFORE PLEURAL ENTITIES, NOT A SINGLE INDIVIDUAL.
KING=BEAST= KINGDOMS.
SPECIFIC ANIMAL/BEAST =
RAM= MEDOPERSIA=
Dan 8:20 The ram(SPECIFIC ANIMAL) which thou sawest having two horns are the kings(KINGDOMS) of Media and Persia.
GOAT= GREECIA
Dan 8:21 And the rough goat is the king of Grecia: ….
GREAT HORN= FIRST KING = UNITED KINGDOM
Dan. 8:21-22″….and ***the great horn*** that is between his eyes is the first king(KINDGOM, UNITED EMPIRE).
GREAT HORN= NATION
4 HORNS= 4 KINGDOMS…
SEE BELOW=
Dan 8:22 Now that(GREAT HORN) being broken, whereas four(HORNS) stood up for it(THE GREAT HORN), ***four kingdoms*** shall stand up out of the nation(GREAT HORN),
but not in his power.
QUESTION IF THE GREAT HORN AND 4 HORNS IS SPEAKING OF KINGDOMS….OF WHOM DO YOU THINK THE LITTLE HORN IS SPEAKING….? CERTAINLY OF ANOTHER SMALLER KINGDOM…AT LEAST TO START WITH SINCE IT GROW EXCEEDINGLY GREAT….
ACTUALLY THE LITTLE HORN DESCRIBED AS EXCEEDINGLY GREAT IS SHOWN AS GREATER THAN THE KINGDOM OF GREECE CALLED VERY GREAT(V.8) AND EVEN MORE GREATER THAN THE KINGDOM OF MEDOPERSIA CALLED JUST GREAT(V.4)….IN REALITY THE RELATIVE GREATNESS IS SHOWN BELOW=
MEDOPERSIA << GREECE <<<<<<LITTLE HORN/?
5) SO WHO IS THE LITTLE HORN IN DANIEL 8, which occupies the later part of the 2300 years timeline, and is shown as being a great kingdom/empire that followed the goat/Greece in history…
and which became more powerful than MedoPersia and Greece?
ANSWER= HISTORY TELL US IS ROME!!!
~1800ad
goat/Greece—>little.horn/ROME->~1800AD
confirmation= in logic= since the 2300evening.mornings, that is 2300 prophetic days, 2300 years, are occupied by the time periods of empires, this also tells us that those prophetic days are symbolic of a longer time period, 2300 years…needed to be so, so that those identified empires may fit comfortably within the timeline they inhabit.
Since both together MedoPersia and Greece occupy only ~500 years of the timeline, it is evident that the rest of the timeline, its later part, occupied by the little horn which last ~1800 years has to be occupied by another empire…telling us that the little horn is actually another empire…lasting a very long time…. so which is it?
WHY IS ROME SHOWN IN POWER UNTIL THE END OF THE TIMELINE…extending in power until ~1800ad which is the end of the timeline in question…the end of the 2300 years inhabited by these 3 empires??
ANSWER= The Roman Empire is shown in power all the way into the mid ages to the end of the timeline ~1800ad…. simply because prophetically and historically speaking Rome is divided in two periods..two phases…
The Roman Empire of the Caesars, and the later or second phase as Papal Rome
Papal Rome inherit the vestiges of the Roman Empire and grew on its own to control many kingdoms during the mid ages(to one degree or another). This prophetic period of Papal Rome, is called the Divided Empire, in Daniel 2, but it is still the empire…because the empire does not changes hands until another nation takes it away from Rome…
and with Papal Rome inheriting “like a son” the kingdom of Rome (whoever small …little…was to start with)…yet her history was to be the same as its “father” the Roman Empire…(both from little to exceedingly great or great…)
Therefore Papal Rome is the continuation of the Roman Empire, still ruling from Rome.
goat/Greece->l.horn/ROME/Imp.Papal>~1800AD
little horn= ROME, CEASARS(IMP) AND PAPAL PHASES
THE TWO PHASES OF THE ROMAN EMPIRE(CEASARS AND PAPAL), ALSO TOLD IN THE PROPHETIC MESSAGE=
1ST PHASE ROMAN EMPIRE= HORIZONTAL CONQUERING=CAESARS= ESTABLISH ITSELF=
Dan 8:9 And out of one of them came forth a little horn(ROME IMP.), which waxed exceeding great, toward the south(EGYPT), and toward the east(GREECE AND EASTERN NATIONS), and toward the pleasant land(ISRAEL/70AD).
2ND PHASE OF THE ROMAN EMIRE= VERTICAL RELIGIOUS PHASE, A HEAVEN ATTACKING PHASE= PAPAL ROME’S ABOMINATION.DESOLATION=(MID AGES/DARK.AGES)..TO RETURN SOON…
Dan 8:10-12 And it waxed great, even to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of “the host and of the stars”(THE SAINTS/DAN.8:24) to the ground, and stamped upon them(PERSECUTES THEM/TRIBULATION MID AGES). Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host(AGAINST-CHRIST, ANTICHRIST), and by him “the daily”(MINISTRY OF PARDON) …. was taken away, and the place of his sanctuary(WHAT IS SYMBOLIZED THERE/GOSPEL AND LAW OF GOD) was cast down. And an host was given him against the daily sacrifice by reason of transgression(SIN/ABOMINATION), and it cast down the truth(LIES/FALSE DOCTRINCES, CHANGED SABBATH, FALSE SABBATH SUNDAY) to the ground;
Bru Ram THE ANTICHRIST IS NOT MUSLIM…..
This second phase of the Roman Empire(Papal Rome of the Mid Ages) up to around the end of the 2300 years timeline ~1800ad, is told to last 1290prophetic days (1290 YEARS) in Daniel 12, which is there called the abomination.desolation(WHICH FURTHERS CONFIRM THE 2300 EM REPRESENTING 2300P.DAYS/YEARS)…which correlates with history
because the Roman Empire divide in 476ad, and Papal Rome then took over around this time (538ad) and continue as supreme until 1798AD, when it lost its persecutive supremacy.. (but healing since then, during the next time period which is the time of the end)
goat/Greece—>l.horn/Rome/I.Papal————->~1800ad
(a.d/70ad)(abom.des/1290yrs)>~1800ad
NOTE= some say that the 2300em, represent literal morning.evenings sacrifices per day, which would mean a total of 1150 prophetic days
2300em/2= 1150 p.days…(instead of being directly understood as 2300 prophetic days)… The fact is that that is not possible….for two reasons=
1) the sacrifices were morning and evening….not evening and morning…
2) simply because if one does as they say…and then divide the 2300em/2 to obtain the total number of days, as such 2 sacrifices per day will then give us =
2300em/2= = 1150prophetic days,
then they say, that those 1150 p.days represent the duration in actual literal days that was last the little horn’s abomination desolation…….
which cannot be!!
why???
a)
because we are told that the little horn’s abominaion desolation was to last actually 1290prophetic days/Dan. 12….(not 1150 prophetic.days as that manipulation of the data would say, which means to do so is an error)
b)
and also using instead those false 1150 p.days is not possible, because since the little horn is part of the 2300p.day, if this are halved to 1150p.days, this would mean that not even the times of the little horn abom.des. will fit within the 1150 p.days(which is the halved 2300em)….
a)
proper relationship=
b)
wrong relationship= the abom.des/1290p.day does not fit within the 1150p.days (halved 2300em.)
In the prophetic message, Paul ( and John in his epistles) identify the Christians origins of the Antichrist and together with Daniel details it becomes evident that this Antichrist is an Apostate religious political system(a church state)…..
In 2 Thess 2 Paul refers to this apostasy as setting a ruling class in their midst…….when a prophet or apostle of the Bible speaks of apostasy originating in the NT times…it is obvious that he is referring to a falling away from the christian faith…a christian apostasy…
(nothing to do with muslims…!!!!)
The Man of Sin, aka the antichrist has apostate christians origins…of such apostasy was Paul speaking of…
THE ANTICHRIST(AKA MAN OF SIN/THE LITTLE HORN. THE BEAST OR WOMEN BEAST) IS NOT MUSLIM…
THE ANTICHRIST IS A CHRISTIAN APOSTASY….PAPAL ROME !!!
………………………………………………………………………………….
The 2300 years although including in its later half the times of the mid ages Papal Rome and the loss of power(Wound) of Papal Rome in 1798ad, during the French Revolution….nevertheless the timeline itself extends a little forwards to end in 1844ad, at which point was to start her Final Judgment in heaven(antitypical Yom Kipur, of all professed believers..some come out innocent others guilty like the beast), this taking place during the next time period (~1800 forwards, called the time of the end/our modern times) as Daniel 7:9-10 shows..her end following soon thereafter when this heavenly judgment ends ( in our near future)…this described in Dan.
1844adend
g/Greece–>lhorn/RomeI.Papal–>1800adend
1800ad2nd.
1844ad2nd.
toe= time of the end, our modern times…from 1844ad forwards…
judged= final heavenly Judgment/trial
y.kipur= antitypical Yom Kipur, of final heavenly judgment
p= plagues= punitive phase of the final judgment starts
abom des= the abomination of desolation of the mid ages
abom.des= the abomination of desolation of the time of the end, in our present and near future, is the New World Order, the return of the Roman Empire/Papal Rome(the Little Horn, Antichrist, the Women/church and beast/kingdom in one, a church state ruling the kingdoms of the world…this time a worldwide extension of the Roman Empire Papal phase…
NEW WORLD ORDER= THE REVIVED ROMAN EMPIRE/PAPAL ROME/BABYLON THE GREAT RULING THE KINGDOMS OF THE WORLD
BABYLON THE GREAT = THE CHIMERA… A WOMEN.BEAST… ADULTEROUS/APOSTATE/EZE.16, WOMEN(CHURCH) AND CITY.STATE.KINGDOM(BEAST) RULING THE KINGDOMS OF THE WORLD(SYMBOL= 10 KINGS/10 HORNS, 10 WORLDWIDE UNIONS)
Rev 17:18
And the woman(APOSTATE/ADULTEROUS CHRISTIAN CHURCH) which thou sawest
is that great city(THE BEAST/VATICAN CITY/PAPAL ROME),
.in 2 Thess 2 identifies this apostasy to be Christian…the Man of Sin antichrist has apostate christians origins…of such apostasy was Paul speaking of…
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Daniel 8 shows the Antichrist already in action during the Mid Ages…and other prophecies tells is he is returning during the time of the end, our times..healed from his wound(loss of persecutive power)… The danger is ahead…is coming here to USA in September…and there is a propaganda endorsing this religious political power….a religious kingdom which is fore told to rule the kingdoms of the world during the time of the end ….Papal Rome…
NEW WORLD ORDER= THE REVIVED ROMAN EMPIRE/PAPAL ROME/BABYLON THE GREAT RULING THE KINGDOMS OF THE WORLD
BABYLON THE GREAT = THE CHIMERA… A WOMEN.BEAST… ADULTEROUS/APOSTATE/EZE.16, WOMEN(CHURCH) AND CITY.STATE.KINGDOM(BEAST) RULING THE KINGDOMS OF THE WORLD(SYMBOL= 10 KINGS/10 HORNS, 10 WORLDWIDE UNIONS)
women= church, prophess believers,
a) ADULTEROUS WOMEN= APOSTATE CHURCH
if adulterous, then adulterous women…example Israel as unfaithful was also symbolized as an adulterous women, Eze. 16…
in like manner the NT apostasy of the christian church is symbolized by a women Babylon the Great, which happens to be a city(beast/nation or kingdom in Dan. 7:23)
adultery = apostasy = Ezequiel 16
b) PURE WOMEN= FAITHFUL CHURCH
if faithful….then the pure women. of Rev. 12 and Rev. 19=
Rev 19:7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.
……………………………………………………………………………………………
IN REVELATION 17 DURING THE TIME OF THE END…IS SHOWN IN POWER AN ADULTEROUS WOMEN(APOSTATE CHURCH) WHICH IS ALSO A CITY(SYMBOL BEAST), THAT IS A CHURCH-STATE AS BEING THE ONE RULING THE KINGDOMS OF THE WORLD=
ADULTEROUS WOMEN= BABYLON THE GREAT= UNFAITHFUL CHURCH.STATE
Rev 17:18
And the woman(APOSTATE/ADULTEROUS CHRISTIAN CHURCH) which thou sawest
is that great city(THE BEAST/VATICAN CITY/PAPAL ROME),
which reigneth over the kings(KINGDOMS) of the earth.
PRESENTED ABOVE…is an apostate christian church which is also a city.state, Papal Rome/Vatican.City, which is to rule over the kingdoms of the world….
just think of these verses when you see Papal Rome being celebrated in the USA congress, the White House, and in her throne(THE UNITED NATIONS….the throne that she built for herself for this purpose…if you do not believe me study the true origin of the United Nations..and their agenda…a One World Order….)
THE NEW WORLD ORDER…is not new….is the revived Roman Empire Papal Phase, the adulterous/apostate christian church.state ruling the kingdoms of the world….Unfortunately USA has being infiltrated and now is controlled by this power…USA is no longer protestant…and you will see…when most of the protestant churches return back to Rome…planning this celebration of the defeat of the reformation…supposedly….right in 2017 which is the anniversary of the Reformation….
People study the Bible….the 7th day Sabbath is the mark of supremacy of Papal Rome as they themselves admit…this means that Papal Rome being the Beast, or women.beast….has her mark of Sunday, the false Sabbath to place in each of you that so accept for momentary life and food….but this will be a one way ticke to eternal damnation to all those that accept her agenda…a “nice” day for the family and children and workers…Sunday worship as the law of the land…(that will be the national apostasy which will be accompany with national ruin…) ALL THE KINGDOMS OF THE WORLD, have being or are conquered for the empire of Rome/Papal…and its
“lamblike beast/”christian” nation of the time of the end which is described as her frontman in Rev. 13 is certainly USA….
these are the crusades of the time of the end…
the culminating war will be against the faithful saints…it is Armageddon….soon…in a few years….
When you see Papal Rome in the United Nations….just know that is her throne…and with peace she is deceiving the world…
THE NEW WORLD ORDER=BABYLON THE GREAT/PAPAL.ROME RULING THE KINGDOMS OF THE WORLD(10 KINGS/10 HORNS/10 WORLDWIDE UNIONS)=
Rev 17:18 And the (ADULTEROUS)woman (APOSTATE CHRISTIAN CHURCH)which thou sawest is that great city(THE BEAST), which reigneth over the kings of the earth(10 KINGS/10 HORNS,…10 WORLDWIDE UNIONS).
Are you really expecting anyone to read and follow what you wrote. It looks like you are just re-copying the same disjointed words. There are no complete understandable thoughts portrayed only a scattering of sentences.
Since you are primarily fixated on timelines understand this; In most all of these references it is speaking about the Four Exiles of the Jewish nation, Babylon, Persia, Greece and Edom. It’s no more difficult than that. Edom is the most terrifying of all, the final exile, which has lasted for the last 2000 years. It is the image the king of Babylon envisioned and other prophets also spoke of.
Bru Ram, I know that the number 666 taken from the book of revelation is understood by many scholars (Christian and not) as reffering to the emperor Nero, (who burned Rome down and blamed the Christians,) and that the later emperor Julian was also seen as an anti Christ. Rome was regarded as the kingdom that would hold dominion until the messiah comes. My point is, this puts traditional Christianity (whether Catholic Eastern Orthodox or Protestant) in a very bad and embarrassing position.
All the information that we posses about Jesus, (with the possible exception of the Ebionite and Nazarene texts) is available only through a Roman imperial filter. All gnostic sources are second to fifth century gentile sources, and they all focus on wild theological speculations, not the ethics of Jesus.
Why do you try to bring Jews to Jesus when the only information we have about him is already filtered through a Roman lens that you truly consider to be a corrupt poisoned source?
Jews already know what they need to know because they have the laws of G-d in the Hebrew Bible Jesus tells you don’t put faith in miracles because an adulterous generation seeks after signs, and Paul and John tell you that the antichrist claims divinity and requires that people accept and serve him. If you remove Jesus’ Jewishness from the equation, and you look at Christian theology, he becomes the textbook false messiah, even according to the NT. Rome was the one who codified Christian doctrines, assumptions, and culture. Rome imposed Christianity on the world. If Rome is the beast, then their Jesus is too.
Sharbano you wrote >>>With all your date manipulation it is clear you started from an assumption of a date corresponding to the events in question and counted back from there and chose That year for the beginning.
That is your misjudgment…
The decrees are actual historically documented facts, which all you Jews know that it is true…
3 decrees, Cyrus/539bc, Darius/519bc and last one Artarxerxes/457bc.
It is your own prophecy in Daniel 9 that chose “a decree” to restore Jerusalem as that starting point for the 69 weeks(7week AND 62weeks = 69 weeks) that was to take us to the arrival of the Messiah…=
Dan 9:25
Know therefore and understand,
that from the going forth of the commandment(DECREE) to restore and to build Jerusalem
UNTO the Messiah the Prince
shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks:
FROM the decree UNTO the Messiah Prince = 7wks AND 62wks = 69 weeks
FROM the decree UNTO the Messiah Prince shall be 69 weeks(483 years)….
as simple as that…(it is your Jewish Bible speaking…not us…)
NOW…you criticize us because we choose the decree of 457bc….?
but which bases do you have to choose any of the other two?
I tell you those two previous decrees are incomplete, and did not accomplished the total restoration of Jerusalem….so to choose them is an error…
Why we pick 457bc…A WELL DOCUMENTED DECREE BOTH HISTORICALLY AND BIBLICALLY/EZRA 7…I have told you why and you do not want to accept it…that is your choice…
BUT
Let me tell you why 457bc is the right decree, or finalizing decree (because certainly the other 2 decrees established the initial restorations)…. but first what is the meaning of the term restoration…so that we may know what the prophecy of Daniel …your Daniel prophet(a book in the Old Testament/Jewish)…was talking about…=
“RESTORATION” …a total restoration? simply to go back to what it was….So what was Jerusalem before it got desolated by the Babylonians?
answer= you all know that Jerusalem was more than walls, homes, buldings or temple…
Jerusalem was in fact a functioning nation under God… a theocratic state….
Therefore…the first and 2nd decrees only provided for the skeleton of what Jerusalem was…which certainly is necessary but does not signify the final restoration to bring back Jerusalem and by default Israel once again as a nation under God is the decree of 457bc…
why? simply because this decree provided for Jerusalem/Israel all the elements necessary for self-ruling magistrates and judges and benefits, (certainly a Israel a nation under God, although certainly under the empire).
..as such Israel once again a nation under God…the decree that finalized by provided for the total restoration of Israel was the decree of 457BC…**ISRAEL ONCE AGAIN A NATION UNDER GOD.**
If you want to use the other decrees, I will venture to say that you are using provisions for an skeleton of what it use to be….those decrees did not bring to two key elements that made Israel what it was, as such restored…which are her statehood and her cultus….a theocracy restored…
only the 457bc accomplished such feat…
That this finalizing decree of 457bc…bring us 483 years later to the point in time of the arrival of Jesus as the Messiah in 27ad. is not just a lucky break….it is in fact the fulfillment of the prophecy and vision…like Daniel 9, your book mentioned was to be accomplished by the Messiah….
that the Jesus the Messiah brought glory to your temple…the 2nd temple is the truth….
and 40 years after His death, and the Jewish rejection of their Messiah at the national level…as such the judgments fell on Jerusalem and the temple…abominated and desolated….in 70ad
KEEP IN MIND THAT THE MESSIAH…THE DESIRE OF THE NATIONS, WAS TOLD TO GLORIFY THE 2ND TEMPLE…..NONE OTHER MESSIAH HAS DONE THIS…EXCEPT JESUS OUR LORD…
SPEAKING OF THIS RENOVATED 2ND TEMPLE…THE PROPHECY IDENTIFIES THE MESSIAH AS THE DESIRE OF ALL NATIONS HIS GLORY FILLING THIS HOUSE=
Hag 2:7 And I will shake all nations, and the desire of all nations shall come: and I will fill this house with glory, saith the LORD of hosts.
Hey, Bru–
Simple yes or no question: Is Jesus God?
Thanks!
YES !!!
and because He came and died for you and me…is that we have been able to find pardon, all these close to 2000 years that the sacrificial system ended….
He is the one presenting His blood before the Father…and mediating in your behalf before His presence….
LISTEN TO YOUR OWN PROPHECY=
Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
AND TELL ME WHO WAS THERE WITH GOD AT CREATION…PARTICIPATING IN THE CREATION OF EVERYTHING=
Gen 1:26 And God said, Let US make man in our image,
AND FIND OUT….who is that Angel of the Lord that accepts worship from man….in multiple times in your own bible …the Old Testament…
something to think about…!!!
God bless…
Maybe it’s about time to find a Bible that doesn’t make so many errors.
What it Does say is:
For a child HAS been born to us, a son HAS been given to us and the dominion will rest on his shoulder. The Wondrous Advisor, Mighty G-d, Eternal Father called his name Sar Shalom. This is regarding King Hezekiah.
First of all….it is your biblical Hebrew that did not have puntuation. You are dividing an idea into two sentences out of your own doing …certainly it is not done as such in your biblical Hebrew…I think there is the problem….
Second, your understanding of King Hezekiah as Eternal Father and Mighty God and wondreous advisor…is an error in your part…there is not way that the Bible will speak of him that way…
Where did I say King Hezekiah is called Eternal Father. You obviously are reading it backwards.
On another note, what do you think Hezekiah MEANS.
First of all Daniel 9 does NOT use “decree”. It is written, “Know and comprehend: From the emergence of the Word to return…” Also it doesn’t say “Messiah the Prince” as you want to understand it, that is because the Seven is separate From the Sixty-Two. How can you add the two separate distinct sentences.
How can you overlook the very first sentence in Ezra. It is clearly, I mean clearly stated there:
“upon the Conclusion of Hashem’s prophecy by the mouth of Jeremiah”. Ezra is clarifying what Daniel has written so there isn’t any doubt of its understanding. So, I know WHY you Want to pick your date. It is being dishonest to scripture.
Your explanation of “restoration” is also dishonest. Daniel says nothing about the completion of a restoration, but Does speak about 62 weeks of being built. Daniel was wholly accurate in the way it was written, insofar as the troubling times this process would take.
Your desperation in trying to find Jsus knows no bounds. He brought Nothing, let alone any glory to the Temple. Where does it say messiah in this: It’s your fabrication.
“Hag 2:7 And I will shake all nations, and the desire of all nations shall come: and I will fill this house with glory, saith the LORD of hosts.”
We could just as easily say it was Because of this new religion that the Temple was destroyed. In any event it doesn’t follow that it was virtually a generation later after the time of Jsus.
You wrote >>Also it doesn’t say “Messiah the Prince” as you want to understand it, that is because the Seven is separate From the Sixty-Two. How can you add the two separate distinct sentences.
First of all…they are not different sentences…
and they are not separated because in ancient Hebrew there were not periods…no punctuation marks to separate an statement from the other…. so…very difficult to tell when a sentence started and the other ended…for that one needs to listen to what the prophecy is saying….the context..defines the text…
This is the proper relationship…
Dan 9:25
A)
STARTING POINT=
“that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem”
B)
ENDING POINT=
“unto the Messiah the Prince”
C)
TIMELINE = 69 WEEKS (7WEEKS 62 WEEKS)
shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks:
D)
INDEPENDENT STATEMENT= it is not localize where in the timeline, but certainly logic locates it at the beginning …as a result of the initial decree….as such following the decree..
likely the initial 7 weeks…49 years as being the times alluded….
“the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.”
THEREFORE…THIS SENTENCE ABOVE…..IS NOT TIE TO THE TIMELINE…IT IS AN STATEMENT THAT REFERS TO SOME EVENTS IN THE TIMELINE….BUT DOES NOT DEFINES THE TIMELINES LIMIT….=
“The independent sentence is just “a declarative statement” …as such=
“The street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.”
THE TRUTH IS THAT THE TIMELINES LIMITS ARE DEFINED BY A STARTING POINT AND ENDING POINT…EG= TIMELINE = 70 WEEKS (490 YEARS)…DEFINE BY ITS STARTING POINT AS THE TIME OF THE DECREE AND ENDING POINT AS BEING THE ARRIVAL OF THE MESSIAH…..THAT’S IT!!!
STARTS/DECREE(restore) ENDING/MESSIAH.ARRIVES
BR
What bible do you quote from? I’m looking at a Vatican II. 1986 bible and the word messiah or prince is not mentioned one time in Daniel 9:24-27. It agrees in the footnotes with the rabbi on 9:25 who the anointed leader was Cyrus. It disagrees on 9:26 who it says shall be cut down was Onias III. Jesus is not mentioned in the foot notes anywhere.
First of all for prophetic understanding…the one and only, the best translation is the KJV
(the rest have many errors, including the NKJV)
Second the footnotes are added human elements many times introduce error….
The RCC, Vatican agenda tries to eliminate in a subtle way Christ from the picture, and has changed many of the original biblical truths…or have tried to minimize its impact by not having the most recognizable words used for translation, but instead using some more obscures ….Messiah’s understanding being the case…
If you go to the original Hebrew you will find out to your surprise that the word
Messiah is right there…after all Messiah=the anointed…..actually the hebrew word right there in Dan. 9 is Mashiyach/Messiah. Also the associated title “Nagid” is right there…which means Prince, ruler. The fact that Nagid is speaking of a “Prince or Ruler” is supported by the fact that the anointed person was usually a king, priest or saint….
1) MESSIAH
משׁיח = in ORIGINAL DANIEL 9 IS AS SUCH
mâshı̂yach
maw-shee’-akh
From H4886; anointed; usually a consecrated person (as a king, priest, or saint); specifically the Messiah: – anointed, Messiah.
2) NAGID
Also present is the word Nagid, which have various meaning… is a political title such as a prince, governor or ruler…
AS FOLLOWS=
H5057
נגד נגיד
nâgı̂yd nâgid
naw-gheed’, naw-gheed’
From H5046; a commander (as occupying the front), civil, military or religious;
generally (abstract plural), honorable themes: – captain, chief, excellent thing, (chief) governor, leader, noble, PRINCE, (chief) ruler.
TRUTH BE TOLD….YES DANIEL-9 DOES HAS THE EXACT WORDS = MESSIAH NAGID… WHICH TRANSLATION IS “THE MESSIAH PRINCE”….”THE ANOINTED PRINCE, ANOINTED RULER, ANOINTED NOBLE, ANOINTED LEADER, ANOINTED GOVERNOR….AS SUCH BEING BOTH THE ANOINTED AND PRINCE/RULER
It is evident that the KJV has issues with errors the same as many others.
I went to a KJV site and copied the relevant passage:
____________________
25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.
26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
_______________________
Why does the KJV HERE use [Messiah] in their translation. Is that translation an accurate reflection for prophetic understanding, or is it rather to Promote a theological narrative. It is obvious here what the “Translator” was attempting to do. Why didn’t the translators do the same for All the other instances where it says Messiah. Why only this occurrence, and twice no less. This is why you are confusing Mashiach in Daniel as being about Jsus.
I should have pointed out for continuity’s sake. Why does the KJV not use “Messiah” in Isaiah 45:1. The Hebrew says to his Mashiach.
I’ll give you an example of direct translating a text is problematic with the first three words of Genesis.
It says Breishit Bara Elokim. It this is translated directly is says “In the beginning created G-d”.
Do you believe that G-d was created in the beginning. This is ONLY the first three words. Now, can you imagine the totality of the text and the easiness in which translations can corrupt the original intent.
CONTINUING ANSWERING YOUR POST….
GIORDANO YOU WROTE=
>>>Daniel is quite clear in his writing that the time frame has a definite starting point, which is the result of his pondering of what Jeremiah had written, that is, the 70 years by the “word” of Jeremiah.
Sorry…although the return was the context….
the fact is that the prophecy speaks of the starting point for the 483 years(69weeks) being the decree to restore Jerusalem/Israel…restore to what it was a nation under God…
this was only accomplished by the decree described in Ezra 7= 457BC….
>>>>We have a clear and Unambiguous starting point, which is recorded by Ezra,
“In the first year of Cyrus king of Persia, upon the conclusion of Hashem’s prophecy by the mouth of Jeremiah, Hashem aroused the spirit of Cyrus king of Persia and he issued a proclamation throughout the kingdom and in writing”.
I do believe ALL the decrees(including the one of Cyrus) were relevant to the restoration of Jerusalem/Israel, because all play a part in it…but the only that got the machine moving…making Jerusalem and by default Israel a functioning political and religious entity was the finalizing decree of 457BC….as such more of a composite decree, inclusive of the previous decrees, but the one that finalizes the job being 457BC…
>>>It is also written by Isaiah, who speaks of Cyrus fulfilling an edit of Jerusalem AND the Temple.
“Who says of Cyrus, He is my Shepherd, He will fufill All My desires, to say of Jerusalem, It shall be built, and of the Temple, It shall be established. Thus said Hashem to His “anointed one”, to Cyrus.
Agreed, his was the first decree, that stimulated induce the following decrees…
but the finalizing decree from which the 69 weeks were to be count is the 457bc decree of Artaxerxes….it is this latest decree which finalizes the indications for the total restoration of Jerusalem/temple…Israel by default…
Besides…counting 483 years from this decree of Cyrus takes you nowhere….not the Messiah that was to give everlasting righteousness…or that was to die for his people…cut off…the suffering servant of Isaiah 53!!!
Curious…whom do you think you arrive from Cyrus decree when counting 483 years later?
You wrote >>>>>Therefore the date you have chosen to be your starting point negates your entire premise of Daniel and falls far short of any accuracy.
Sorry, you have not provided better reasons…
nor has you provided a better Messiah….that is to cause the “atonement” or bring everlasting righteousness at His death….
>>>There are the seven weeks, 49 years, to expire and the “word” to return and build Jerusalem is issued, which is by the anointed Cyrus, as written by Isaiah.
Putting Cyrus aside, which certainly he is the one that started the restoration rolling…
Let me just point out to you…that those 49 years you mention are quoted out of context, and misapplied….tell you why=
The prophecy says= from the decree UNTO THE MESSIAH shall be 49wks AND 62 weeks…
for a total of 69 weeks from the decree to the Messiah…which is told here=
Dan 9:25 ….
from the going forth of the commandment(DECREE) to restore and to build Jerusalem
UNTO the Messiah the Prince
shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks:=69 WEEKS
DECREE.DATE—+ 69WEEKS—> Messiah Prince
457bc–+ 483yrs–>27ad/A/arrival of the Messiah
WHICH GOES AGAINST TO WHAT YOU SAYING…what ever it is…which I do not even understand…because it does not say where is those 49 years to bring us…
but anyway…you did say that brings you one way or another to Cyrus….as the Messiah…
something that one needs to analize….
a) since Cyrus participated in the decree….why would any of those decrees point to Cyrus as coming…when he was already there to start with?
b) another question is the following …what spiritual relevance had Cyrus, within the context of the Jewish nation and its cultus, its temple?, or being the “the desire of the Nations” as the Messiah to come…?
to start with …he was not even Jewish…
nor from the root of Jesse…as the Messiah is suppose to come from…
Nor was he around when the temple was finalized….to bring GLORY to it…
Better Yet ….how does Cyrus fulfills the actions that the Messiah was to fulfilled….6 of them…
among them…and end to sin and transgression, bring everlasting righteousness…
worst yet…how does Cyrus brings atonement…reconciliation back to God to Israel????
Was Cyrus “cut off” for the sins of others?…
THIS WAS TO BE ACCOMPLISHED BY YOUR MESSAIAH (CANNOT BE CYRUS) ON BEHALF OF THE THE ISRAEL OF FAITH…..= (CYRUS DID NOT DO THAT)
6 THINGS TO BE ACCOMPLISHED BY THE MESSIAH SOMETIME WITHIN THE 70 WEEKS=
Dan 9:24
A) TIME OF PROBATION FOR THE NATION OF ISRAEL=
Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city,
to finish the transgression,
and to make an end of sins,
and to make reconciliation(ATONEMENT) for iniquity,
and to bring in everlasting righteousness,
and to seal up the vision and prophecy,
and to anoint the most Holy.
COME ON….CYRUS HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH ALL THAT…FOR ONE HE WAS NOT EVEN JEWISH TO START WITH…
THIS IS HOW THE 70 WEEKS PROPHECY ARE SUBDIVIDED, THESE ARE CONTINOUS RELATED PERIODS….ALL ANCHORED TO THE 70TH WEEK BY THE DATA PROVIDED…
-62weeks->1week-> end of 70 weeks
-62weeks->A–X–> end of 70 weeks
7wks + 62wks= 69wks(483yrs) bring us to the arrival of the Messiah(A)
7wks + 62wks= AFTER these 69 weeks…the Messiah is to die(X), nospecific time period
During the last week = 70th week= the Messiah Prince,
a) confirms(offers in strength) the Everlasting Covenant/New.Covenant
b) is cut off= dies….as such=
i) ratifies the New Covenant (in the midst of the week, with His death/atonement)
ii) annuls the Old Covenant(sacrifices and oblations) in the midst of the 70th week
THE 70TH WEEK=
Dan 9:27
And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week(70th week):
and in the midst of the week(70thwk) he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease,
Dan 9:26 And after threescore and two weeks(SAME AS AFTER 69 WEEKS)
shall Messiah be cut off(DIES)…..(IN THE MIDST OF THE 70TH WEEK)
NOTE = by ratifying the New Covenant at his death, the Messiah also ends the Old Covenant of sacrifices and Oblations…
EXACTLY WHEN DOES THE PROPHECY SAYS THAT THE MESSIAH WAS TO DIE….?
ANSWER= in the midst of the last week, 70th week…
How we know that…first we need to understand that the reconcialition/atonement was to happen with the death of the Messiah. Since the prophecy says that this ATONEMENT(death) was to happen, WITHIN THE 70 WEEKS, and the prophecy also says that his death happens after the 69weeks(same as after 62 weeks depending from where one is counting, 62 weeks from the end of the initial 7 weeks….or 69 weeks from the decree…both arrive to the same point in time)=
ATONEMENT/DEATH=
a) WITHIN THE 70 WEEKS ( v24)
b) BUT AFTER THE 69 WEEKS
a+b MEANS = IN THE MIDST OF THE 70TH WEEK
within 70wks……
after 69wks….
A-X/70th->
means= in the atoning/death of the Messiah happens in the midst of the 70th week…
at which point he ratifyes the New Covenant and annuls the Old Covenant of sacrifices and oblations (devoid of meaning anylonger)
THE DEATH OF THE MESSIAH= Dan 9:26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself… But not for himself – Margin, “and shall have nothing.” This is a picture not of a Messiah that was accepted….but one that end up with nothing…rejected perhaps? Does it brings us to recognize Him as the Suffering Servant, cut off…and rejected…?
Dan 9:26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself…
Isa 53:3 He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.
THE DESTRUCTION OF THE JERUSALEM AND TEMPLE….WHO WAS RESPONSIBLE?
ABOMINATION.DESOLATIONS TO FOLLOW SWIFTLY ARE FORETOLD, AS SUCH THE SAME TEMPLE WHICH WAS INITIALLY RESTORED…IN THE SAME VISION IS FORETOLD THAT IT WAS TO BE DESTROYED ONCE AGAIN…DUE TO ABOMINATIONS AND DESOLATION TO FOLLOW.
THE DESTRUCTION ONCE AGAIN OF THE INITIALLY RESTORED JERUSALEM AND THE RENOVATED 2ND TEMPLE, HISTORY REPEATING ITSELF… THE QUESTION REMAINS…WHY?
Dan 9:26 … and the people of the prince(ANTECEDENT THE MESSIAH) that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary;
Any way…we know that the Romans came and destroyed the city and temple in 70 ad…
The question nevertheless remains …whom does the prophecy says was responsible for the destruction of Jerusalem and its temple?
Because of many things…..the destruction of the city and temple is foretold to take place once again in the same vision….actually a 62 weeks after the end of the reconstruction of that temple (end of the 7 weeks)…(the abom.des. to take place AFTER the 69 weeks from the decree that induced the post-babylonian restoration)….Wow….
see below=
DESTRUCTION ONCE AGAIN= (D)
A)counting from the decree to cause the postbabylonian restoration …=destruction = after 69wks
—62WEEKS->(A)–(X)…(D)…DESTRUCTION WHEN?
(A)–(X)…(D)….DESTRUCTION WHEN?
B) counting from the end of the post-babylonian restoration, end7 weeks..destruction =after 62wks
RESTORATION/7WKS->–62WEEKS->(A)–(X)…(D)…DESTRUCTION WHEN?..
A)EVENTS TO HAPPEN AFTER THE ARRIVAL OF THE MESSIAH==
the prophecy says that all those events listed as happening AFTER 69wks(OR 62wks) are to happen after the arrival of the Messiah (since He was to arrive at the end of the 69 weeks from the decree, or at the end of the 62 weeks counting from the end of 7 weeks of post babilonian reconstruction) THEREFORE AFTER 69wks OR AFTER 62 WEEKS….is a nonspecific time period that is anywhere after the arrival of the Messiah…
i) the Messiah dies AFTER THE 62 WEEKS FROM THE END OF RESTORATION (SAME AS AFTER 69 WEEKS FROM THE DECREE)
ii)This abomination desolation once again of the Jerusalem and its sanctuary… =
a)is foretold to take place AFTER the 62 weeks counting from the end of the initial postbabylonian restoration (that is counting from the end of the initial 7 weeks)…
b)(this is the same as AFTER 69 weeks, which is a nonspecific time period, which means anywhere after the arrival of the Messiah at the end of the 69/62 weeks and forwards into the future),
WHEN DID THE ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION OF THE 2ND TEMPLE AND JERUSALEM TOOK PLACE ONCE AGAIN, AS PER HISTORY?
ANSWER = 70AD
Yet history identifies this RE- abomination.desolation/destruction of Jerusalem and its 2nd temple,as taking place once again in 70ad…as so it did… in so fulfilling the prophecy, which only said that this temple was to be destroyed after the arrival of the Messiah(who was to arrive at the end of the 69/62 weeks)….as such when saying that the abomination desolation was to take place “AFTER 62/69 weeks …this only means that it was to take place after the arrival of the Messiah…any point in time thereafter……..history tells us it was destroyed in 70ad, which is a date which fulfills the prophetic message of Daniel 9 which only says that this re-abomination.desolation of the city and temple was to take place certainly well after the arrival of the Messiah, well after the end of the 62/69weeks….well after 27ad…(for the 457bc decree date)….
62weeks->(A)–(X)…>end 70wks/34AD….(DESTROYED)70AD..
ABOM.DESOLATION = AFTER 62 WEEKS FROM THE END OF THE INITIAL 7 WEEKS=
Dan 9:26 And after threescore and two weeks/62wks(SAME AS AFTER 69 WEEKS FROM DECREE)……and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
–62wks–>–1week–>end/70weeks
A–X–>end 70 weeks
for the 457bc decree=
34ad…..abom.des/70ad……
THIS ABOMINATION DESOLATION FORETOLD…IN DANIEL 9 IS NOT TOLD BY WHOM OR WHEN WAS TO HAPPEN (THIS IS TOLD IN DANIEL 8 AND BY HISTORY). THE FOLLOWING VERSE ONLY CONFIRMS THAT THE BECAUSE THE ABOMINATIONS THESE WILL BE FOLLOWED SWIFTLY BY DESOLATIONS…DESTRUCTION… =
Dan 9:27 ….. and for the overspreading of abominations (he IS NOT IN THE ORIGINAL) shall make it desolate, even until the consummation,
THE ABOMINATOR.DESOLATOR/ROME WILL DIE AS WELL….WILL FIND ITS END….
DAN. 9:27and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
counting from the decree to cause the postbabylonian restoration …destruction after 69wks
—62WEEKS->(A)–(X)…(D)…DESTRUCTION WHEN?
You see…you people have done much harm to your understanding of the Messiah, by separating the functions of the Messiah…as if there were two Messiahs..when it is only one….=
Messiah Ben Joseph= the suffering servant, cut offmcarries the sins of His people=the lamb of God
Messiah Ben David= the King of king and Lord of lord…the Lion of Judah
PEOPLE….that is the same individual….which both died for us to redeem us and bring reconcialition back to God, and then after this redemption he is going to bring us with Him to Heaven…It is not big science his actions….you just have to understand the ancient Jewish wedding…
1st=
first coming….as the betrothal…
returns to his father house to built a mansion for His bride(the church)
2nd
second conning…to fetch the Bride(the church) to take her to His father house(heaven) for the wedding celebrations…where He had prepare a home for her…
YOU WROTE
>>>> Then for 62 weeks the Temple will be built, on and off again, in troubling times.
NO…
Where in the prophecy says so? no where…
in fact the rebuilding of the temple city takes place solely during the first 7 weeks=
the initial post-babylonian restoration of the temple was to last only 7weeks…49 years….a jubilee…
Concerning what happens AFTER 62 WEEKS (same as AFTER 69 WEEKS)…
only listed are the following events( which do not include the restoration of the temple and city as you say……in fact the opposite its destruction once again is listed)=
ONLY LISTED AFTER 62 WEEKS…are the following events related to the final or 70th week(the Messiah in action), or thereafter outside the 70 weeks(we have the abom.des. re-destruction of this previously rebuilt temple in 70ad..)
Dan 9:26,27 =EVENTS DURING THE 70TH WEEK OR THEREAFTER…
And after threescore and two weeks (62 WEEKS, SAME AS AFTER 69 FROM THE DECREE)
shall Messiah be cut off(DEATH OF THE MESSIAH/70th.week), but not for himself:
and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary;
and the end thereof shall be with a flood,
and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
And he shall confirm the (NEW) covenant with many for one week(70TH WEEK):
and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease(END OLD COV)
and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
NO ….the initial restoration of the temple was to last only 7weeks, the initial 7 weeks in the timeline of the 70 weeks (490 years)…as such 7 weeks as…49 years….a jubilee…
>>>>Then After those 62 weeks, that final week includes a time period of the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple. During the middle of this time period (week) the prince will abolish Temple sacrifices and offerings.
AFTER 62 WEEKS= is an indeterminate time period…in fact it means any where thereafter…
AFTER 62(SAME AS AFTER 69 WEEKS depending from where one is counting)….and does not fit any of the decrees…..nor Cyrus..nor Darius…nor Artarxerses….
Actually I don’t even think you even know what you are saying above….you are putting the destruction of the temple done in 70 ad…as if being in the middle of the 70th week….this does not bring us to any previous decrees….to none of them….You see….those 70 weeks have to start from the decree..so the prophecy says…by you putting the 70ad inside the 70th week….you have move forwards everything for 40 years….as such the suppose decree as starting point of this timeline lies outside any where of the decrees….even 40 years ahead of the one in 457bc….as such…
this is what you are doing…
73ad/as the end of the 70 weeks…(the destruction inside the last week)
decree as if 417bc????? unheard off!!!!
YOU WROTE>>>>Now, none of this “Fits” into your schedule of events. You have twisted and turned those few verses upside and sideways in order to put Jsus into the picture.
MY GOODNESS…THE TWISTING IS ALL YOURS…
You do not even dare quote the verses in question, so that people may see all the twisting in your part…
>>>Youuuuuuu attempts at “prophetic days, years” etc are mere imaginations. There is no basis for it but only to calculate some dates….
Well…so are you doing when having 70 weeks and calling them 490 years…
70 weeks x 7 p.days/p.year= 490 prophetic days = you are calling them 490 years…
so why not the 2,300 prophetic days as 2300 literal years…
>>>Who would even entertain such an idea as a “prophetic month” and a year being “360 days”.
Solely God…I think you will have to ask Him…after all He was the one that gave the prophecies!!
actually…..if you study carefully Daniel ….you will find that the waring out/scattering of God’s people is given two ways…..in equivalent time periods…which is that this time period was to last=
TRIBULATION/PERSECUTION=
1260 prophetic days = IN DAN. 12 mentioned to be a little longer 1290 p.days because it list the inclusive time period of the abom.desolation, which includes the persecution of 1260p.days(Rev.12 confirms it)
3.5 times = 3.5 prophetic years(within the prophetic symbolic message)IN DAN.7
THE SAME EVENT IS GIVEN AS LASTING 1290/1260 P.DAYS AND 3.5 P.YEARS…
DIVIDING ONE INTO THE OTHER….WE HAVE THAT EACH YEAR IN PROPHECY =360P.DAYS
1260P.DAY/3.5YRS= 360 p.days/p.year
>>>This is utterly ludicrous. If you are trying to formulate a calendar that compares to a Jewish calendar then you would have to add a month. Given that it is nothing but sheer nonsense.
We are not talking about literal calendars….Jewish or not…
we are talking of symbolic prophetic times….times told in the symbolic prophecy itself, which by the way even some of them have unusual names, like evening.morning for a day, echoing the Gen1 accoung into which an evening.morning formed a day….or the word “time” for year also an uncommon usage ….even the original word for week in that prophecy is an uncommon one…
THESE ARE SYMBOLIC PROPHETIC TIME PERIODS…WITHIN SYMBOLIC PROPHECIES, THEREFORE THEIR NAMES AND DURATION NEEDS TO BE UNDERSTOOD AS DEFINED BY THE PROPHETIC MESSAGE ITSELF…
>>Therefore there is No calculations to do. All you have done is Define your Own Rules and then applied them to events and THEN call it proof.
My friend you are totally unfair…it is the prophecy speaking to you…listen to it…forget where it takes you…just listen….and this is what simply says=
Dan 9:25 …..
that from the going forth of the commandment(DECREE) to restore and to build Jerusalem
UNTO the Messiah the Prince
shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks:…..
NO MORE NO LESS….
FROM THE DECREE(TO RESTORE)—-69wks(483yrs)—>UNTO THE MESSIAH PRINCE
decree/457bc—+483years—>27ad(A= arrival messiah)….so did Jesus….
Yes …the 2nd temple was the one to be filled by the glory of the Messiah…Jesus…and so it did..
Hag 2:7 And I will shake all nations, and the desire of all nations(THE MESSIAH) shall come: and I will fill this house(2ND TEMPLE) with glory, saith the LORD of hosts.
You have Proved my point beyond any shadow of doubt.
“Besides…counting 483 years from this decree of Cyrus takes you nowhere….not the Messiah that was to give everlasting righteousness…or that was to die for his people…cut off…the suffering servant of Isaiah 53!!!”
Your desperate to “prove” you messiah “fits” the narrative you have to ignore the plain meaning of the texts. The true narrative with all the relevant sources indeed does Not fit your presuppositions. It does fit the Jewish narrative and teachings just fine.
Those seven weeks (49 years) is the time that will pass when Cyrus comes into play and the Israelites return to rebuild. This is what was clarified to Daniel. You are misunderstanding this because you haven’t fully comprehended Daniel’s question regarding the book of Jeremiah. It was the words of Jeremiah that started this entire narrative.The 49 years that elapsed ushered in the “Word”, as it says (Davar in Hebrew) , of Cyrus, the anointed one spoken of by the prophet Isaiah. He is specifically called anointed and there is no question regarding this. Once Again read Isaiah 45:
“Thus Said HASHEM to His ANOINTED ONE, TO CYRUS, whose right hand I have grasped.”
How MUCH MORE explicit can it be. Hashem G-d is speaking here an HE is defining WHO is his anointed one, His messiah, as it were. Therefore you simply CANNOT put Cyrus aside. In so doing you are putting G-d aside and His words. To put it simply Daniel is saying, that from the “word” (it doesn’t say command) of Jeremiah until the anointed prince shall be seven weeks. Your mistaking where Daniel is writing “word” and you seem to think he has written command or decree. Not only that but look at the text. There is an anointed prince at seven weeks and then there is the anointed one who is cut off and who ceases to exist. That is grammatically ridiculous.
“a) since Cyrus participated in the decree….why would any of those decrees point to Cyrus as coming…when he was already there to start with?”
Once again you fail to recognize that Daniel was contemplating Jeremiah.
“b) another question is the following …what spiritual relevance had Cyrus, within the context of the Jewish nation and its cultus, its temple?, or being the “the desire of the Nations” as the Messiah to come…?
to start with …he was not even Jewish…
nor from the root of Jesse…as the Messiah is suppose to come from…
Nor was he around when the temple was finalized….to bring GLORY to it…”
Are you going to ignore G-d in this matter. Read Isaiah 45:1. What does it say there. Read Ezra 1; Read Chronicles 2.
“Better Yet ….how does Cyrus fulfills the actions that the Messiah was to fulfilled”
Read Isaiah 45:1 where G-d Himself calls Cyrus a Messiah. The rest of the statement above makes no sense whatsoever.
“NOTE = by ratifying the New Covenant at his death, the Messiah also ends the Old Covenant of sacrifices and Oblations…”
I found this to be rather funny indeed. Have you read Ezekiel and the description of the Third Temple. Are you aware that whoever is Messiah at that time will bring a sin offering. Ezekiel specifies how there are sin offerings etc.
That’s about as far as I can stand to read.
Shardano…you wrote
>>>Besides…counting 483 years from this decree of Cyrus takes you nowhere….not the Messiah that was to give everlasting righteousness…or that was to die for his people…cut off…the suffering servant of Isaiah 53!!!”
That is why that is not the decree alluded in the prophecy….
which was 457bc
>>>Your desperate to “prove” you messiah “fits” the narrative you have to ignore the plain meaning of the texts. The true narrative with all the relevant sources indeed does Not fit your presuppositions. It does fit the Jewish narrative and teachings just fine.
Sorry….it is you what really is off target…
Your Cyrus as your Messiah….which was to cause atonement reconciliation back to God, that does not make sense…
>>>>Those seven weeks (49 years) is the time that will pass when Cyrus comes into play and the Israelites return to rebuild. This is what was clarified to Daniel. You are misunderstanding this because you haven’t fully comprehended Daniel’s question regarding the book of Jeremiah. It was the words of Jeremiah that started this entire narrative.The 49 years that elapsed ushered in the “Word”, as it says (Davar in Hebrew) , of Cyrus, the anointed one spoken of by the prophet Isaiah. He is specifically called anointed and there is no question regarding this. Once Again read Isaiah 45:
That does not make sense….
Cyrus is related to the initial decree of the 70 weeks timeline…He therefore cannot be the ending point to which the 69 weeks from the decree was to take us….
that does not make sense….
STARTING POINT/DECREE—-+7+62 WEEKS—->ENDING POINT=MESSIAH ARRIVES
>>>Thus Said HASHEM to His ANOINTED ONE, TO CYRUS, whose right hand I have grasped.”
Yes…Cyrus was involved in initiating the command (decree, or word, which ever)
but the timeline was to take us to its ending point, that is to the arrival of the Messiah..
from the decree(restore)…unto…the Messiah…
I had written =
a) since Cyrus participated in the decree….why would any of those decrees point to Cyrus as coming…when he was already there to start with?”
you answered
>>>Once again you fail to recognize that Daniel was contemplating Jeremiah.
Whomever he was contemplating….and certainly the time for the end of the captivity was at the forefront in his mind…but he also wanted to know what was going to be the fate of His people….
“b) another question is the following …what spiritual relevance had Cyrus, within the context of the Jewish nation and its cultus, its temple?, or being the “the desire of the Nations” as the Messiah to come…?
to start with …he was not even Jewish…
nor from the root of Jesse…as the Messiah is suppose to come from…
Nor was he around when the temple was finalized….to bring GLORY to it…”
>>>Are you going to ignore G-d in this matter.
Seems to me is the other way around…
>>>Read Isaiah 45:1. What does it say there. Read Ezra 1; Read Chronicles 2.
Wow…no posting of verses…well I guess I do your job=
THIS ONLY SPEAKS OF CYRUS AS STARTING THE WHEELS MOVING…HE IS NOT THE MESSIAH OF THE PROPHECY=…AND BY THE WAY DID HE DIE AND IN SO DOING STOP THE SACRIFICES AND OBLATION…STOPS THE OLD COVENANT?
I don’t think so…
AGAIN…CYRUS IS ASSOCIATED WITH THE FIRST DECREE, INDUCING THE ONES THAT FOLLOWED…THAT IS THE STARTING POINT OF THE 70 WEEKS TIMELINE…
NOT THE END OF IT, WHERE THE MESSIAH IS FOUND…+
Ezr 1:1-2 Now in the first year of Cyrus king of Persia, that the word of the LORD by the mouth of Jeremiah might be fulfilled, the LORD stirred up the spirit of Cyrus king of Persia, that he made a proclamation throughout all his kingdom, and put it also in writing, saying,
Ezr 1:2 Thus saith Cyrus king of Persia, The LORD God of heaven hath given me all the kingdoms of the earth; and he hath charged me to build him an house at Jerusalem, which is in Judah. l
“Better Yet ….how does Cyrus fulfills the actions that the Messiah was to fulfilled”
>>>>>Read Isaiah 45:1 where G-d Himself calls Cyrus a Messiah. The rest of the statement above makes no sense whatsoever.
No doubt Cyrus is called a messiah…an anointed…and so was Saul, David and many others……and no doubt he was associated with initiating the decree(starting point) of the 70 weeks…but he was not THE MESSIAH spoken by Daniel 9
THIS IS BASICALLY WAS CYRUS DOES= all at the initiating the decrees that mark the starting point of the 70 weeks timeline= liberated the Jews and induces with decrees, the restoration of the city and temple 539bc(if I remember right), initial decree, finalized with the decree of 457bc, as a religiosu political restoration secured by the word/command/decree
SOLE OF CYRUS ACTIONS=
Isa 45:13 I have raised him up in righteousness, and I will direct all his ways: he shall build my city, and he shall let go my captives, not for price nor reward, saith the LORD of hosts.
The issue is whether Cyrus was THE MESSIAH that was to cause an atonement/reconciliation between man and God done by The Messiah of Daniel 9 vision…and simply he was NOT the one…
Neither did CYRUS come at the end of the 62 weeks (same as at the end of the 69 weeks) since they share the same ending point….as the point when the Messiah was to arrive(A)…neither was he the one that died(X) soon after……
STARTING POINT= CYRUS
ENDING POINT= THE MESSIAH
TIME IN BETWEEN= 483 YEARS (or more)
DECREE(CYRUS,D,A):457BC—+ 69weeks(483 years)–>27ad/arrival Messiah/JESUS
DECREE(CYRUS,D,A):457BC-+7wks–>–+62WEELS—>27ad(A)…(X)/DEATH.JESUS
I had said= ” by ratifying the New Covenant at his death, the Messiah also ends the Old Covenant of sacrifices and Oblations…”
You answered=
>>>I found this to be rather funny indeed. Have you read Ezekiel and the description of the Third Temple. Are you aware that whoever is Messiah at that time will bring a sin offering. Ezekiel specifies how there are sin offerings etc.
I just can say for that….that things would have being different for Israel if they would have accepted Jesus as their Messiah…but they did not recognize Him….in like manner the fate of the 3rd temple…did change….
Now the New Jerusalem comes from heaven…and tabernacle of God is with them…
so some variations have taken place….
Keep in mind that the Messiah change the paradigm into the New Covenant that He confirmed…and also your actual rejection of Jesus as the Messiah change your reality…and introduce variations into the way things were to be…that is it altered your
future reality…and nowhere is this more evident than in what happened to your own city and temple, which got once again desolated…something happened there that brought about a new direction to your nation…something because you have being warned about this…….perhaps a longer road to this acceptance…because I know that all of you are going to see Jesus as the Messiah eventually, under which circumstances only God knows……
So the fact that Ezequiel speaks of another temple..in which sacrifices for sins take place… given the new paradign of the New Covenant means that the fulfillment of this prophecy remains in question… I do not know what God would have done if you had accepted Jesus as your Messiah…but one thing is certain…things are not the same now…
the fact that your city and temple got desolated …speaks of a new paradym…a new reality.
But nowhere in those verses speaks of the Messiah or anointed coming to that temple…
whichever…..
Never mind…
the truth si that….
there is not way Cyrus is the end point of the timeline of the 69 weeks….since he was in the beginning of it, as part of the composite decree that was its starting point….457bc
while the ending point is the arrival of The Messiah 69weeks later, (483 years later)…
the Messiah that was to reconciale man back to God….something Cyrus could never do!!!
(anointed or not)…
Apparently…you are also not appying the day.year principle…
or as some people says….”weeks of years”…as such 70 weeks = 490 years…
which also goes against the prophetic understanding…since those 70 weeks…
include the times of MedoPersian decrees and times, Greece and early Rome..
to find its end at the arrival of the Messiah in 27ad…
.
I’ll ask again. Where did you get all this Gibberish from:
(dâbâr
daw-bawr’
From H1696; a word; by implication a matter (as spoken of) of thing; adverbially a cause: – act, advice, affair, answer, X any such (thing), + because of, book, business, care, case, cause, certain rate, + chronicles, commandment, X commune (-ication), + concern [-ing], + confer, counsel, + dearth, decree, deed, X disease, due, duty, effect, + eloquent, errand, [evil favoured-] ness, + glory, + harm, hurt, + iniquity, + judgment, language, + lying, manner, matter, message, [no] thing, oracle, X ought, X parts, + pertaining, + please, portion, + power, promise, provision, purpose, question, rate, reason, report, request, X (as hast) said, sake, saying, sentence, + sign, + so, some [uncleanness], somewhat to say, + song, speech, X spoken, talk, task, + that, X there done, thing (concerning), thought, + thus, tidings, what [-soever], + wherewith, which, word, work.
>>>>>” Also it doesn’t say “Messiah the Prince” as you want to understand it,
Here it is what it says=
H4899 = MESSIAH
משׁיח
mâshı̂yach
maw-shee’-akh
From H4886; anointed; usually a consecrated person (as a king, priest, or saint); specifically the Messiah: – anointed, Messiah.
H5057= PRINCE
נגד נגיד
nâgı̂yd nâgid =
naw-gheed’, naw-gheed’
From H5046; a commander (as occupying the front), civil, military or religious; generally (abstract plural), honorable themes: – captain, chief, excellent thing, (chief) governor, leader, noble, prince, (chief) ruler.)
If THIS is what you are relying on then it’s no wonder you have confused the simple to understand.
I’ll ask This. Why did G-d call Cyrus HIS MESSIAH, that is His ANOINTED.
Since Daniel was speaking about the word from Jeremiah why did Ezra say Cyrus FULFILLED what Jeremiah wrote. These are the keys to understanding. Why is it that 7 weeks, those 49 years align with the word of Jeremiah AND Cyrus giving the proclamation and Ezra confirming the same. Isn’t it curious that Daniel separates 7 weeks and 62 weeks. Why did he do That. Nowhere does your timeline agree with Artaxerxes whether using 7 weeks OR 62 weeks OR 69 weeks. Only Cyrus fits the timeline.
Reading Daniel we see there are Two anointed persons in question. First, there is the anointed prince who comes after 49 years and not 70 years as Daniel had thought. He didn’t account that the Starting point was from Jeremiah not the Babylonian king. This is the clarification brought to him. So, that anointed prince WAS NAMED by Isaiah and this was brought to Cyrus so he would understand HE would be the catalyst for the return to rebuild. Otherwise he would have refused to do so. Cyrus was astonished he was actually Named by a prophet as The One.
Daniel does start out by saying it is 70 weeks that are determined for the people, to cleanse the sin of the nation for violating Shemitta. This is why the 70 years of Jeremiah are multiplied by 7, as is according to Torah. Those 490 years are the punishment inflicted for the violation and when that has concluded the sin will have been paid for. This is why Daniel says it is an atonement for iniquity. Thus, a sentence was proscribed and punishment was served. Therefore That sin has ended. It has Nothing to do with your Jsus and sin. It was punishment meted out and punishment served. Simple as that.
The Second anointed one will be cut off and will no exist no more. This is what the Hebrew says and your version is incorrect.
I see you Also want to dismiss the prophecy of Ezekiel. So, whatever doesn’t “Fit” your theology you will just ignore and dismiss it. That says much about where you are coming from.
Sharbano says:
April 27, 2015 at 9:00 am
I’ll ask again. Where did you get all this Gibberish from:
(dâbâr
daw-bawr’
From H1696; a word; ….decree, ….
>>>>>” Also it doesn’t say “Messiah the Prince” as you want to understand it,
Here it is what it says=
H4899 = MESSIAH
From H4886; anointed; usually a consecrated person (as a king, priest, or saint); specifically the Messiah: – anointed, Messiah.
H5057= PRINCE
נגד נגיד
nâgı̂yd nâgid =…
From H5046; a commander…. prince, (chief) ruler.)
ANSWER= THE ABOVE DEFINITIONS ARE BASED IN STRONG’S CONCORDANCE..
>>>If THIS is what you are relying on then it’s no wonder you have confused the simple to understand.
The is no science in knowing that the Messiah..means anointed..
and Nagid, means commander, prince, chief ruler…
If you deny those definitions….then I question why???
>>>I’ll ask This. Why did G-d call Cyrus HIS MESSIAH, that is His ANOINTED.
Because he was anointed…the truth is that many are anointed…. no big problem here..
yet….
he was not the one to come at the end of the 62( or 69 weeks, since these time periods both have the same ending point)….why? simply because he was part of the starting point of the timeline, which is he induced the first decree, got things moving…
while the Messiah in question comes at the end of the timeline ( end 62wks, same as end 69 weeks)….what you are saying does not make sense…
decree(1/Cyrus-2/Darius-3/Artaxerxes)-> +69weeks(483yrs)–>27ad/A/Messiah
STARTING POINT = CYRUS
ENDING POINT= THE MESSIAH…THE SUFFERING SERVANT…
IN BETWEEN BOTH ANOINTED = 483 YEARS….
>>Since Daniel was speaking about the word from Jeremiah why did Ezra say Cyrus FULFILLED what Jeremiah wrote.
Because Cyrus fulfilled what Jeremaih was foretelling….(the starting point restoration)
yet
Jesus fulfilled what Daniel was foretelling…. as the Messiah arriving 483 years later…
A)
There is time gap between this two individuals that you are ignoring…=
one/Cyrus foretold as the one that was to get the restoration going…as the starting point of the 69weeks/483 years timeline where he fulfilled what was foretold about the restoration of the Jerusalem and temple(finalizing decree 457bc)
B)
while The Messiah Prince was to come at the end of the 69weeks(483 timelines) timeline..His arrival as the ending point of this
………………………….
A)
The prophecy of Jeremiah addresses the restoration of the temple as what Cyrus was to induced and fulfilled, which is the starting point of the timeline…
B)
while Daniel foretold that the Messiah to come 483 years later, during which He was to confirm and ratify the New Covenant, and was to stop the Old Covenant of sacrifices and oblations, and to die in the process ….
note= there is no way that Cyrus had anything to do with God’s covenants for His people the Israelites, …that was to be the job of the Messiah Nagid that was to come….
<<>>Isn’t it curious that Daniel separates 7 weeks and 62 weeks.
No…he did not do it…the sequence continues…
It is you who separated them…
notice….there are no puntuation marks in biblical Hebrew….so any separation that you do of both two sequential numbers is your own doing….your choice…which might be wrong…
actually I believe you are wrong…
but still who comes at the end of the 62 weeks…434 years…
>>>Why did he do That.
No …he did not…
You did…or whomever started that idea….
>>>Nowhere does your timeline agree with Artaxerxes whether using 7 weeks OR 62 weeks OR 69 weeks. Only Cyrus fits the timeline…
I never said that Artaxerxes uses those timelines for himself…
the purpose of the timeline is to bring us to the Messiah using as starting point the decree that given by those kings (because apparently three of those MedoPersian kings were involved in commanding the restoration of Jerusalem, one decree given by each of those 3 kings, all three decrees being complementary, being the last one the finalizing decree, which was 457bc as the starting point of the timeline)….
DECREE(Cyrus,Darius+Arta)/457bc— +69weeks(483 years) —>Arrival Messiah
You got a problem with your timeline…I am looking anxiously to know how are you going to disposed of the 434 years (62 weeks)….who is going to be at the end of that timeline according to you….?
<<>>He didn’t account that the Starting point was from Jeremiah not the Babylonian king.
You know you need to start bringing verses here…where you see all that…
because no where I see that the starting point of those 70 weeks was the times of Jeremiah….no where says so….
in fact the 70 weeks…were “cut off” (chatack) like a piece of pie, from the longer time period of the 2300 years described in Daniel 8… This being “cut off” speaks all
70 weeks (7wks-62wks-1 week) as single block of time…
H2852
חתך
châthak
khaw-thak’
A primitive root; properly to cut off, that is, (figuratively) to decree: – determine.
>>>>This is the clarification brought to him. So, that anointed prince WAS NAMED by Isaiah and this was brought to Cyrus so he would understand HE would be the catalyst for the return to rebuild. Otherwise he would have refused to do so. Cyrus was astonished he was actually Named by a prophet as The One.
That is all perfect, and so was fulfilled….
but all speaks of the starting point of the initial 69 weeks(7wks-62wks time period)….
Cyrus had nothing to do with the ending point of that timeline…this ending point solely pointed to the Messiah Prince which was to confirm the New Covenant and stop the OC of sacrifices and oblation….and dying in doing so…
Cyrus was not associated to the ending point of the timeline, neither he had something to do with the covenants….
>>Daniel does start out by saying it is 70 weeks that are determined for the people, to cleanse the sin of the nation for violating Shemitta. This is why the 70 years of Jeremiah are multiplied by 7, as is according to Torah. Those 490 years are the punishment inflicted for the violation and when that has concluded the sin will have been paid for.
I don’t doubt that this 70 years during the Babylonian deportation was for not keeping the sabbaths….as 2 Chronicles says that they needed to give the rest to the land for 70 years as a payment for the shemittah that they did keep…=…those 70 years are the total sabbath they were behind in keeping the sabbaths…… (they had failed in keeping the sabbaths during the previous 490 years….this time period spoken happened previous to the Babylonian deportation… )=
2Ch 36:21 To fulfil the word of the LORD by the mouth of Jeremiah, until the land had enjoyed her sabbaths: for as long as she lay desolate she kept sabbath, to fulfil threescore and ten years.
But that is Jeremiah…prophecy….
Daniel’s prophecy is another prophecy…during which the Jews are told that they are going to have another period of probation, another period of 490 years(70 weeks) during which they were to be able once again to live in the restore nation and city and during the last week of it, the 70th week their Messiah was to arrive to confirm the New Covenant and end the previous one of sacrifices and oblation…. This new probationary time was to starting from the decree(TO RESTORE JERUSALEM) forwards for a total time period of the 490 years(70 weeks) as such this as a period of probation for the nation of Israel. This period of probation ended in 34 ad (at the end of the last or 70th week of the Messiah’s mission)…. and soon after like a clock…40 years….followed the Roman abomination desolation of Jerusalem and temple, which were destroyed… Rome echoing the actions of the Babylonians….that is why in the prophetic message Rome is called Babylon the Great…(in Revelation)
It is important to notice…that the fact that the city and temple were destroyed 40 YEARS after the end of probation of the nation of Israel in 34ad, ( that is 70ad, which is actually 40 years after the end of the 490yrs/70 weeks probation in 34ad)……this fact by itself further supports the fact that the close of probation for Israel had taken place….as such its destruction arrived soon thereafter…(the destruction has to come after the end of probation, not during probationary time of those 70 weeks, because during that period of probation no judgments can take place…since it is a period of mercy)….
>>>This is why Daniel says it is an atonement for iniquity. Thus, a sentence was proscribed and punishment was served. Therefore That sin has ended. It has Nothing to do with your Jsus and sin. It was punishment meted out and punishment served. Simple as that.
Aha….so you say….
but you need to understand atonement as simply what the lamb sacrifices did for your people during the OT times…found pardon for their sins…
so the death of the Messiah did the same…this time for good…as such no more sacrifices were needed….that is why the prophecy says that the Messiah was to stop the sacrifices and oblation, that is the whole Old Covenant ended at the death of the Messiah…
simply because His blood is sufficient…
Dan 9:27 ….in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease
>>>The Second anointed one will be cut off and will no exist no more. This is what the Hebrew says and your version is incorrect.
Friend…that is not what proper translations say…
no where speaks of another Messiah in that prophecy….
there is only one Messiah to come…..and this Messiah had only one people…the Jews=
The Messiah Nagid, is called in the same vision the Messiah, and the Nagid…
all these speakings of the antecedent the Messiah Nagid…
Dan 9:26
And after sixty two weeks(434 YEARS), Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself.
And “”the people of a coming ruler”” shall destroy the city and the sanctuary.
>>>I see you Also want to dismiss the prophecy of Ezekiel. So, whatever doesn’t “Fit” your theology you will just ignore and dismiss it. That says much about where you are coming from.
Friend, I had nothing to do with your change of circumstances…
Is was because your people failed the 70 weeks(490 years) probation as told by Daniel…which resulted in your destroyed city and temple once again shortly after in 70ad…
Could it be that the rejected New Covenant had something to do with this…?
Could it be that the much awaited fulfillment of the the Everlasting Covenant was rejected at the national level by the Jews…The covenant which as an oath and promise of the Messiah to come and who was to bring us reconciliation back to God
….which was given to Adam and Eve, later to Abraham…
….Covenant in which they were told that THE SEED OF THE WOMEN(THE MESSIAH), was to come to destroy the serpent….yet in the process the seed of the Women was to get wounded (suffering servant, died, but resurrects and wins)…….
The promise Messiah as the seed of the Women, that was to redeem her…the church redeem….
TRUTH BE TOLD…WE ALL HAVE FAILED…THE IMPORTANT THING IS THAT HE DID REDEEM US…AND ALTHOUGH AT THE NATIONAL LEVEL NO NATION HAS ACCEPTED THE NEW COVENANT…..
YET…GOD HAS PROVIDED SALVATION FOR JEWS AND GENTILES ALIKE,
AWE ONLY HAVE TO BELIEVE AND ACCEPT HIM AT THE PERSONAL LEVEL…
REGARDLESS WHAT OUR PEOPLE DID OR DID NOT DO…
Gen 3:15 And I will put enmity between you(THE SERPENT) and the woman(THE CHURCH), and between your SEED(THE ANTICHRIST) and her Seed(CHRIST); He(THE SEED OF THE WOMEN) will bruise your head(THE SERPENT’S), and you(THE SERPENT) shall bruise His heel(THE SEED OF THE WOMEN’S HEEL).
Could it be that to His own He came and they did not received Him..?
Isa 53:3-5
He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief:
and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.
Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.
But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities:
the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.
The Strong’s concordance is NOT a Hebrew dictionary. They took the translated KJV and assigned it to the Hebrew words. This is Not the way a dictionary is produced. It isn’t possible to simply use a dictionary and understand what the text is saying.
I really don’t know How many times I must repeat myself.
“Because he was anointed…the truth is that many are anointed…. no big problem here..”
It should Certainly NOT be a problem here. As I said, it Clearly states it is Cyrus who is spoken of as the anointed one After the Seven weeks. As I showed this is Confirmed, Confirmed by scripture, by Ezra. You can try and ignore but that doesn’t change what is clear and concise and Precise. Given that, it utterly destroys your notion of adding 7 and 62. Again, if it were to mean as you say, 69, then v 26 would be saying “…Then for 69 weeks”. But it doesn’t. It says, “… for 62 weeks”. During those 62 weeks there are Persian, Greek and Roman nations which cause the troubled times Daniel speaks of. Therefore when one counts from Cyrus it rules out your timeline.
“while The Messiah Prince was to come at the end of the 69weeks(483 timelines) timeline..His arrival as the ending point of this”
I covered this above. Read it carefully. And again, Here is the Text.. “Know and comprehend: From the emergence of the word to return and build Jerusalem UNTIL the anointment of the prince will be seven weeks”. Word to Prince – Seven Weeks. Word to Prince – Seven Weeks Word to Prince – Seven Weeks. It does NOT does NOT say 69 weeks, OKAY. How can this be So difficult. It’s simple words, not complicated at all, not couched in a mystery, no ambiguity.
Daniel speaks Nothing about a New Covenant. That is simply made up.
“It is you who separated them…
notice….there are no puntuation marks in biblical Hebrew….”
WHAT. Who told you that. Where did you get that idea from. Why don’t you copy your Exact translation, word for word that you are using, because it is apparent you are using a faulty translation.
” one decree given by each of those 3 kings, all three decrees being complementary, being the last one the finalizing decree, which was 457bc as the starting point of the timeline)….”
This does NOT fit the wording of the text. Read what I wrote above. There is no way the last decree is applicable, “emergence of the word to Return and Rebuild”. Your confusion comes from falsely thinking it uses Restore when it does NOT.
“where you see all that…
because no where I see that the starting point of those 70 weeks was the times of Jeremiah….no where says so….”
I showed you, Ezra says it was Hashem’s prophecy by the mouth of Jeremiah.
“But that is Jeremiah…prophecy….
Daniel’s prophecy is another prophecy…during ”
Oh Really, Come on now. Are you really going to go there. Hear the words of Daniel, who by the way was Not a prophet.
I, Daniel, contemplated the calculations, the number of years about which the word of Hashem had come to the prophet Jeremiah, to complete the seventy years since the ruin of Jerusalem”.
Note what Daniel says HERE and what Ezra said regarding the same. THIS is what Ezra was speaking of when he wrote of Cyrus. Daniel made the mistake of when to start the calculation, the same as you are doing. It’s not about some saving messiah, it’s about 490 years being the full compensation for the sin committed. After that 490 years it will be the end of that sin and its payment. Therefore Jsus died for absolutely NOTHING because those years have paid the price. THE END.
“This new probationary time was to starting from the decree(TO RESTORE JERUSALEM)”
Show me the Hebrew word there that says “RESTORE”. What does your Strong’s say on THIS.
Where does G-d speak of “Probation”. Is that all you can do is make up things out of whole cloth. Really?
And THAT is all I’m going to read and reply to.
BR
I thought the Decree of Cyrus was during his first year as sovereign over the world empire which began with his conquest of Babylon in 538 BC not 457.
Sharbano you wrote >>it’s rather interesting how you refer to Papal Rome. Surely you are aware that everything you have been posting has its origins from that original catholic church.
Where do you surmise Your bible Came from. It was canonized by that church. Much of the creed the protestants hold dear Also Came from that church. If that church is the epitome of evil how can you put your trust in anything it has disseminated.
Just like in your own religion, all through the Old Testament we see apostates…
the same goes to Papal Rome. Actually most of the people that she killed during the Mid Ages were christians that remain faithful to the truth….
Papal Rome as a church-state, that is the roman church controlling the state, did not come to fruition until after the fall of the Roman Empire in ~500ad.The Biblical cannon was established weel before, in the previous 4 centuries…and the protestant reformation further polish it..
So…there are many faithful people that compile the biblical writings….written in the first century themselves…well before the Papal apostasy…
Sharbano you wrote
>>>First of all Daniel 9 does NOT use “decree”. It is written, “Know and comprehend: From the emergence of the Word to return…
The actual Hebrew word for “the commandment”, “decree” …all included within the meaning of the word in questions…see below….I think you are “splitting hairs”=
דּבר
dâbâr
daw-bawr’
From H1696; a word; by implication a matter (as spoken of) of thing; adverbially a cause: – act, advice, affair, answer, X any such (thing), + because of, book, business, care, case, cause, certain rate, + chronicles, commandment, X commune (-ication), + concern [-ing], + confer, counsel, + dearth, decree, deed, X disease, due, duty, effect, + eloquent, errand, [evil favoured-] ness, + glory, + harm, hurt, + iniquity, + judgment, language, + lying, manner, matter, message, [no] thing, oracle, X ought, X parts, + pertaining, + please, portion, + power, promise, provision, purpose, question, rate, reason, report, request, X (as hast) said, sake, saying, sentence, + sign, + so, some [uncleanness], somewhat to say, + song, speech, X spoken, talk, task, + that, X there done, thing (concerning), thought, + thus, tidings, what [-soever], + wherewith, which, word, work.
>>>>>” Also it doesn’t say “Messiah the Prince” as you want to understand it,
Here it is what it says=
H4899 = MESSIAH
משׁיח
mâshı̂yach
maw-shee’-akh
From H4886; anointed; usually a consecrated person (as a king, priest, or saint); specifically the Messiah: – anointed, Messiah.
H5057= PRINCE
נגד נגיד
nâgı̂yd nâgid =
naw-gheed’, naw-gheed’
From H5046; a commander (as occupying the front), civil, military or religious; generally (abstract plural), honorable themes: – captain, chief, excellent thing, (chief) governor, leader, noble, prince, (chief) ruler.
>>>>that is because the Seven is separate From the Sixty-Two. How can you add the two separate distinct sentences.
I did not give the prophecy….which ever this is what it is written, =
It simply says that the Messiah was to arrive at the end of the 69weeks (which is the same as the end of 62 weeks)
Dan 9:25 …..
hat from the going forth of the commandment(DECREE) to restore and to build Jerusalem
unto the Messiah the Prince
shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks:
WHICH MEANS….
FROM THE DECREE(TO RESTORE)….UNTO THE MESSIAH PRINCE….
SHALL BE 7WKS+62WEEKS = 69 WEEKS…
7 WEEKS = from the decree(D) to reconstruct, to include the reconstruction of the temple and city forwards to point (Y) as the point when thereconstruction ends…
62 WEEKS l= from point (Y) as end of the reconstruction(end of the 7 weeks) forwards then bring us to the arrival of the Messiah(A)
1 WEEK /70TH WEEK= from the end of the 62 weeks(A) as the arrival of the Messiah then forwards to the end(E) of the 70 weeks=
-includes the confirmation of the New Covenant for those 7 years,
(initially given in force during the first half of that week by the ministry of the Messiah, then his death in the midst of it that ratifies it(and annuls the Old Covenant of sacrifices and oblation),
and continues being offered in force during the last half of that 70th week by the ministry of His disciples on behalf of solely the Jews..
-again includes the ratification of the New Covenant at the death of the Messiah
– and at the same time the Old Covenant of sacrifices and oblations stops/annuled at His death
AFTER 62 WEEKS= SAME AFTER 69 WEEKS(WHEN COUNTING FROM THE DECREE)…BASICALLY MEANS AFTER THE ARRIVAL OF THE MESSIAH (who arrives at the end of the 62 weeks when counting from the end of the restoration of the city and temple, or
the same at 69 weeks when counting from the decree to restore it)
AFTER 62 WEEKS….THIS IS A NONSPECIFIC TIME PERIOD. =
-DESCRIBES THE DEATH OF THE MESSIAH (WHICH OTHER INFORMATION IN THE PROPHECY TELLS HE DIES IN THE MIDST OF THE 70TH WEEK AT WHICH POINTS TAKES PLACE THAT ATONEMENT/HIS DEATH, LEADING TO THE RATIFICATION OF THE NEW COVENANT AND THE ANNULMENT OF THE OLD COVENANT OF SACRIFICES AND OBLATION. (LOCALIZED WITHIN THE 70TH WEEK BY OTHER INFORMATION IN THE PROPHECY)
– AND AFTER THESE 62 WEEKS(NONSPECIFIC TIME…ANY TIME THEREAFTER), ALSO WAS TO TAKE PLACE ….THE PEOPLE OF THE PRINCE TO COME(THE PEOPLE OF THE MESSIAH PRINCE that was to come) was to cause the destruction of the city and temple. THAT IS THE ABOMINATION DESOLATION ONCE AGAIN OF THE CITY AND THIS 2ND TEMPLE…FORETOLD…AS HAPPENING “AFTER THE 62 WEEKS” WHICH MEANS AFTER THE ARRIVAL OF THE MESSIAH….WHEN DOES NOT SAY…
Daniel 9 does not say when the city and temple were to be destroyed….(only says “AFTER…so and so”)…it is Daniel 8 and history together that give us further information…
I did not invent that…
If God chose to divide the total timeline into these consecutive time periods….it is not my fault…
see below=
(Y)–62weeks–>(A)1week–> (END) total 70 weeks.
THEREFORE…
If He tells us that the Messiah is to come AFTER 62 WEEKS (when counting from the end of the 7 wks), which is the same as saying AFTER 69 WEEKS (when counting from the date of the decree/word to restore the city and temple…I cannot change what it is written….
>>>How can you overlook the very first sentence in Ezra. It is clearly, I mean clearly stated there:
“upon the Conclusion of Hashem’s prophecy by the mouth of Jeremiah”. Ezra is clarifying what Daniel has written so there isn’t any doubt of its understanding.
Ok…you do Ezr 1:1 Now in the first year of Cyrus king of Persia, that the word of the LORD by the mouth of Jeremiah might be fulfilled, the LORD stirred up the spirit of Cyrus king of Persia, that he made a proclamation throughout all his kingdom, and put it also in writing, saying,
Ezr 1:2 Thus saith Cyrus king of Persia, The LORD God of heaven hath given me all the kingdoms of the earth; and he hath charged me to build him an house at Jerusalem, which is in Judah.
not quote it….so here it is=
Cyrus had his place in history….and certainly he fulfill some prophecies.. key as being the initial decree giver….as important as were further decrees by Darius and finally Artarxerxes in 457bc
but certainly Cyrus was not the Messiah to come, was not the Messiah that was to bring everlasting righteousness and cause the atonement/reconciliation back to God at His death, his blood finding pardon for our sins…as such ending sin…He died in our behalf (the suffering servant of Isaiah 53 is the Messiah to come…)
THE composite decree(initiated by Cyrus, then by Darius and finalized by Artaxerxes) was for the restorationto take place…but we are to count from that decree forwards so that we may arrive to the Messiah….since the Messiah is told to come AFTER that decree….therefore the Messiah cannot be Cyrus(he was at the starting point of the prophetic timeline as precursor of the decrees finalized in 457bc when finally Jerusalem/Israel is given religious political powers…as such restore as a nation under God once again….and from this starting point of a decree(Cyrus involve in this)…then afterwards….7+62 weeks (483 years after)….we were to come to the Messiah…
the Messiah is at the opposite …as the ending point of the timeline…the 70th week…
while Cyrus is related to the starting point of this timeline of the 70 weeks…as inducer of the decrees…which culminated in 457ad…
<<>>>Your explanation of “restoration” is also dishonest.
Wow….now personal insults….very interesting!!!
>>>Daniel says nothing about the completion of a restoration, but Does speak about 62 weeks of being built.
???
THE COMMANDMENT IS TO RESTORE=
Dan 9:25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem
RESTORE= means to return to what it was before the Babylonian desolation…which was a nation under God….when Israel is restored back to being a nation before God at the time of the MedoPersian restoration……then you can say that the MedoPersian decree providing for this religous and political restoration is the one the prophecy speaks of…and the one is 457BC…
WHAT YOU SAY ABOUT COMPLETION OF RESTORATION… that the decree makes provision for it, as I said, does not mean that I am saying when this physical restoration was completed…
although by the prophetic message we know that likely was by the end of the 7 weeks, 49 years … but truth be told the physical restoration even continued into the times of Herod…so that physical restoration is not just what the prophecy is emphasizing…which is what I am telling you….
listen carefully so that you do not need to call me dishonest….The key restoration is the restoration of Israel once again as a nation before God, the decree that gives those religious political powers back to Israel (certainly by the intervention of God)….that is the restoration I am speaking of….and this was given in 457BC….
as simple as that…
.
>>>Daniel was wholly accurate in the way it was written, insofar as the troubling times this process would take.
Certainly it did..
>>Your desperation in trying to find Jsus knows no bounds.
Likely is your rejection of Jesus the one that knows no bounds…
I could say many things…but I will not…
>>>He brought Nothing, let alone any glory to the Temple. Where does it say messiah in this: It’s your fabrication.
“Hag 2:7 And I will shake all nations, and the desire of all nations shall come: and I will fill this house with glory, saith the LORD of hosts.”
And who is the Desire of all nations??? if not the Messiah…
Certainly it was not Cyrus….
Yes….it was filled with glory by Jesus….yet you did not see it…or received Him…
that certainly is not His fault!!!
So are you going to tell me that the 2nd Temple did not get filled by someone’s glory…as the prophecy says….you mean that that prophecy never got fulfilled?
that would mean that you will never see the Desire of Nations…because your temple is gone…
Mark my words….when you see National law of Force Sunday Worship coming your way….know that it is Jesus the Messiah who let us know what was to come….and was the one that filled your 2nd temple with glory….
<<>> that is because the Seven is separate From the Sixty-Two. How can you add the two separate distinct sentences.
Follow the line of thought…..
from the decree (to restore) unto the Messiah Prince shall be 7 weeks, 62 weeks…
The fact that all the weeks need to add to 70 weeks, tells us that the initial 7 weeks, are followed by 62 weeks and finally the 1 week(70th)…all adding to 70 weeks…(none superimposed, and no gap among them). The verse speaks the coming of the Messiah to take place after the 7wks and 62 weeks….there is no other antecedent… The statement that follows about the building of the city walls ‘and streets is just telling us what is going to take place in the initial part of that sequential timeline…
Logically the first 7 weeks…..
include the restoration the decree in question speaks of…
the next 62 weeks from the end of that restoration bring us to the Messiah’s arrival to that same restored city…
and the last or 70th week tells us about events taking place during the last week which is the week in which the Messiah is in actions….his confirmation of the New Covenant, his death in the midst of the week, ratifying that same new covenant and annulling the old Covenant of sacrifices and oblations…
and finally the later abomination.desolation of this same city 2nd temple is foretold…and as such took place…
FROM RESTORATIONTO END OF PROBATION…>TO DESTRUCTION….
But we need not fear, or feel sad…because He has provided the New Jerusalem for His people the Israel of Faith…and the Lion of Judah will reign in that city….which will be found right there in the New Earth…in the land of Israel…right there in top of the Mount of Olives….
Jesus the Jewish Messiah bringing joy to His people…and keeping His promises…!!!
..
There it goes…cutting the timelines…
well this one is important…the total 70 weeks
–62wks–>1 week–>end 70 weeks
(D)-7wks->(Y)–62wks–>(A)-1wk/X–>(E)end of 70 weeks
D=DECREE= 457BC
Y= END OF THE 7 WEEKS
A= ARRIVAL OF THE MESSIAH= 27AD
X= DEATH OF THE MESSIAH IN THE MIDST OF THE 70TH WEEK/31AD
E= END OF THE 70 WEEKS PROBATION= 34AD
How is Jsus the messiah you speak of when it says he is cut off and will exist no more. Therefore that man is of no consequence any more. What is more plausible and aligns with Daniel is that the Temple Priesthood has ceased. It is they who are anointed, which actually means a smearing, as in oil, which is how the Priesthood is anointed, with oil.
Sharbano says >>>>How is Jsus the messiah you speak of when it says he is cut off and will exist no more.
You know you need to be faithful to the message of the prophecy….nowhere in that prophecy of Daniel 9 says that the Messiah was “to exist no more” you are adding words into that prophecy… the issue about His resurrection is not even addressed in Dan. 9=
This is all what it says about his death=
Dan 9:26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself:
“not for himself” foretells the condition as if death.. “and shall have nothing.”
NO MENTION ABOUT HIS RESURRECTION IN THIS PROPHECY…
THAT INFORMATION IS GATHERED FROM OTHER SOURCES….eg. Isaiah 53, when after dying it is says that He will rejoice of his accomplishments..suggesting His resurrection…
THE MESSIAH = THE SUFFERING SERVANT= AN OFFERING FOR SIN= THE LAMB OF GOD THAT TAKES AWAY THE SINS OF THE WORLD= rejoice of his work(at his resurrection)
Isa 53:8-11 ,,,,
THE SUFFERING SERVANT= THE MESSIAH= THE LAMB OF GOD=
NOTICE THE GIST….THE MESSIAH DIES, AS AN OFFERING FOR SIN, JUSTIFYING MANY…EVENTUALLY TO REJOICE IN HIS WORK…=
“for he was “”cut off””(DIES) out of the land of the living:
for the transgression of my people was he stricken. …
when thou shalt make ***his soul an offering for sin***,…
***He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied:***(RESURRECTION ?)
by his knowledge shall my righteous servant
justify many; for ***he shall bear their iniquities.*** ”
<<>>What is more plausible and aligns with Daniel is that the Temple Priesthood has ceased. It is they who are anointed, which actually means a smearing, as in oil, which is how the Priesthood is anointed, with oil.
THE END OF THE OLD COVENANT OF SACRIFICES AN OBLATION…IT IS A REALITY.
The everlasting Covenant(aka New Covenant), the promise of that one that was to break the head of the serpent…while He himself getting wounded in the heal (the Messiah that was to die…but was to resurrect, therefore..only a wound)….
The Messiah….as a source of atonement,
reconciliation of the women/church back to God (her husband)…
was totally fulfilled in Christ…according when the prophetic timeline told us…
This promise and oath was repeated to Abraham….
and many prophets speaks of His coming….
THE MESSIAH…THE ANOINTED, IS A SINGLE INDIVIDUAL…
NOT MULTIPLE PRIESTS….
It is really a pity, seen all of you fixated in setting up a New Temple, which could not be sacred, because can not be consecrated, because to establish animal sacrifices once again in it, in facts ignores that the Messiah already came and gave His blood, once time for all….so that those sacrifices, ceremonies and oblations are no longer needed…as such obsolete…
I know you are not the only ones, many protestants are placing prophetic interest in the reconstruction of the temple in Jerusalem….(a misunderstanding created by the Antichrist/Papal Rome himself, which wants that piece of real estate property for herself …for that matter is after the whole world)…who has orchestrated the Hegelian principle in your land…
have an action to create a reaction…to ultimately have a third option instituted…
have the Jews and Palestinians eliminate each other, so that Papal Rome can get back her Holy Land….the crusades are back again…the crusades of the time of the end…this time extending to the whole world…for a short time…because Christ will return and end all this…liberating His saints…
let me tell you something…
you are going to get your temple…
but it is much better than anything man can do…
its the tabernacle of God with man,
as found in the New Jerusalem that descends from heaven,
which is to settle right there in the plain of the mount of Olives (which will be flattened)….
there all of you will be able to worship…without having to worry about those terrorists…
or suicide bombers….because all will be eliminated….
And Israel…the faithfuls….the Israel of God….the believers in Christ….will find peace…
all, original Jewish branches and us grafted branches….
If you continue keeping your eyes in the Israel as you know it…there is not much offered there… it takes more to purified Israel and the whole world…it takes a lake of fire and brimstone to get rid of sin, sinners and purified the earth….and a new earth is what God has promised for us… If you think that Muslims are going to give up without a fight…you are in for a surprise.. what is foretold that what is coming is not good…and we can see how such “incidents” are increasing exponentially, as well as natural and economical disaters…
so buckle up…and get close to Jesus so that you can enjoy the ride..
and so that you might find the right destination…the Promise land….the Earth made new…
We have much to thank Christ/THE MESSIAH, for providing an answer for our problems…because in this world there is no peace…
That man….the inconsequential man you talk about…is the Son of God..Our Savior…
rejected and afflicted…but conqueror!!!
Since we’ve determined your timeline regarding the 7 weeks is faulty and, according to scripture, false, we can look at the end and come to a time frame. The 69 weeks have been explained thoroughly and completely but what about the last week. If we assume the destruction of the Temple in 70CE and subtract 49 we do Not arrive at the dates you tried so cleverly to ascribe. One thing is for certain, you cannot misunderstand the Temple’s destruction. It is a fixed point in time.
“It is really a pity, seen all of you fixated in setting up a New Temple, which could not be sacred, because can not be consecrated, because to establish animal sacrifices once again in it, in facts ignores that the Messiah already came”
Have you read Ezekiel. His chapters discuss these matters. I’m not about to rewrite then entirety here. You’ll have to read for yourself. But in those chapters Ezekiel Does discuss the consecration aspect. Maybe it’s about time you hear and listen to what G-D says, by the mouth of the prophets. You say it cannot be because your messiah has come. Are you calling Ezekiel a liar in what he wrote. You simply cannot deny what he has written.
“I know you are not the only ones, many protestants are placing prophetic interest in the reconstruction of the temple in Jerusalem….(a misunderstanding created by the Antichrist/Papal Rome himself, which wants that piece of real estate property for herself ”
You have GOT to be kidding me. Where in the world do you come up with this malarkey. I’ve heard some outrageous Xtian ideas in my time but this simply Has to take the cake. Do you really believe Papal Rome is what Ezekiel is speaking about. Where in Ezekiel do you find any resemblance of such an idea. It is IN Ezekiel where all these descriptions are regarding the Third Temple.
BR
I’m curious, when did SDA chruch begin? Wiki has it about the late 1700 to early 1800’s.
God bless sharbano for trying to have a conversation with you but a bottom feeder like my self, I find you are impossible to to keep up with. You post few scriptures and much opinion. It would be helpful if you would reduce your post so I could understand the points you make. The 10 ommandments as a post is simple compared to yours.
The SDA church is the result of the great religious awakening of the early 1800s,
when members of multiple protestant churches united in the common expectation of the 2nd coming of Christ ( which came about after the study of Daniel 8 among them…
in which the 2300em timeline, was understood as 2300 years starting from ~500bc as the times of the first element in the vision which were the times of the Medopersian ram..
this timeline therefore pointed to ~1800 as its ending point, which was correctly understood, but what was to happen there initially was not understood well, thinking that was the second coming of Christ….
yet not yet…
because soon thereafter it came to be understood that what was to start at the end of the 2300 yrs (~1800ad) was in fact “the cleansing of the sanctuary” a prophetic reference to the antitypical Yom Kipur which was when this cleansing took place during the OT times…
—2300yrs—>end
decree/457bc–+2300yrs–>1844ad<-antitypical Yom Kipur/final judgment
This Advent Movement among many protestants eventually fragmented, among which remainws a group of Adventist which learnd and accepted the 7th day as the true Sabbath, and thereafter organized themselves as the 7th day Adventist Church ~1860ad…and since then we have being …it is a church of the time of the end..
and we believe we are given the 3 angels message….which is described in Rev. 13.
We believe in the plan of salvation as symbolized in all the parts of the OT sanctuary, Jesus/Messiah, now in heaven with his expiatory blood and mediatory Priestly functions
and we believe of "no life after death", except for after the resurrection…
the 7th day Sabbath as binding…the whole Moral law of God(10 comm) as binding…
his health laws as binding..
yet the Old Covenant as ended, and its ceremonial/sacrifices and rites ending as well
we believe in the soon coming of the Lord….
you might say that our message is very rooted in the Bible…
we believe in the spirit of prophecy, and we have being blessed by it…
we believe in baptism by immersion solely…
Concerning who we are as people…
there is good and bad people everywhere…same in our church…
the relevant issue is that we believe the Biblical Message….as the truth…
we accept the New Covenant Christ as our Savior…His Salvation by faith through grace, finding pardon for us/justification and our sanctification by the power of His.. Holy Spirit in us…
I think that is a quick review..
thanks about your inquiry..
BR
Thanks for the follow up comment. I have never looked at SDA beliefs and have never talked to one that I know of. Do you have a link where can go to read about it? I find your writing style impossible to follow and it might be helpful for me to get a better understanding of your belief.
Thanks
Larry, below you ask for a link…but I did not see the reply area…
so I answer here…this is a site that has our books..=
Key among them are the Desire of Ages…
and concerning the prophetic message…we have The Great Controversy….especially chapter 25 and thereafter tell our times…the time of the end…
http://www.whiteestate.org/books/books.asp
God bless,
BR
Thanks. Now I understand.
God Bless
What is all this Gibberish:
(dâbâr
daw-bawr’
From H1696
H4899 = MESSIAH
From H4886; anointed; usually a consecrated person (as a king, priest, or saint); specifically the Messiah: – anointed, Messiah.
H5057= PRINCE)
The WORD is Not commandment. Look at every Other example in Tanach where Davar is used.
And again,Read Isaiah 45:1. Hashem G-d CALLS HIM Messiah. He is anointed one spoken of in Daniel, After the 49 years. Daniel thought the 70 years of Jeremiah were up but nothing was happening. He used the wrong starting point, just like you are doing. So then he is told 70 years are weeks and after the first week (49) years STARTING from with Jeremiah and the “Word” going forth that Israel would be allowed to return by an anointed prince, Cyrus. It was because of Isaiah’s writing that was given to Cyrus, and him being named, that he believed it was from G-d that he was to issue the proclamation to rebuild Jerusalem and the Temple. This is Why Ezra wrote it as such and is also chronicled in the book. You want to flat ignore the words of Hashem when he Calls Cyrus to fulfill the words of the prophets. Tell me then, why does G-d call Cyrus the messiah.
If Daniel wanted to outline the scenario as you say he wouldn’t have said seven weeks, then sixty-two weeks. He would have just done as Jeremiah and used 69 weeks. Why did he say seven weeks and then sixty-two weeks. It sure seems coincidental that after the week of 49 years starting from the “Word” that Cyrus issued that proclamation and thus fulfilled the week Daniel spoke of. If it were Artaxerxes it certainly would Not have been 49 years. Therefore your argument fall flat on its face in light of what was written and what occurred of that time.
<<>Does Jesus meet the NT conditions of the antichrist?
>>>Claims divinity (2 Thessalonians)
Your word versus His….I believe He was divine…
>>>Requires that all men accept his mark (revelation)
Sorry you are misinformed…the Mark of the Beast is Sunday the false/Sabbath…
>>Changes set times and the law disregarding the G-d of his fathers, (Daniel 7:25)
Friend Jesus did not change any laws…
except all the ones that your people added to the Word of God…
>>>OPEN AND SHUT
Not so fast….
The antichrist…is in the prophetic message of Daniel shown to be Rome, Papal phase…
the little horn as Rome, extending its action into the Mid Ages as Papal Rome, as the Antichist ……ruling from Rome during the Mid Ages as localized in the 2300 years timeline ….
please study Daniel 8…so that that understanding becomes clear…
I posted something about it…
Revelation 13:16 It also FORCED all people, great and small, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on their RIGHT HANDS or on their FORHEADS. The false Christ makes his own law to impose, as you admit ALL HISTORIC CHURCHES HAVE DONE.
Deuteronomy 6:6 These commandments that I give you TODAY ( THE COMMANDS OF MOSES) are to be on your hearts Impress them on your children. 6:7 Talk about them when you sit at home and when you walk along the road, when you lie down and when you get up. 6:8 Tie them as symbols on your HANDS and bind them on your FOREHEADS.
SEE? The mitzvot of Moses are to be bound on ISRAEL’s hands and between their eyes, ie FORHEADS, and in your heart, NOT NEW LAWS or theology of the Church.
Mathew 23 Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples: 2 “The teachers of the law and the PHARISEES SIT IN MOSES’ SEAT. 3 So you must BE CAREFUL TO DO EVERYTHING THEY TELL YOU. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach. JESUS CARES ABOUT DEEDS AND PRACTICE!
JESUS APPROVED OF THE PHARISAIC INTERPRETATION OF THE TORAH BRU RAM, WHY DO YOU TAKE JEWS AWAY FROM THE LAW TO FOLLOW THE SON OF MAN? Scripture EXPLICITLY SAYS Put not your trust in princes, NOR IN THE SON OF MAN, in whom there is no help. (Psalm 146:3)
AS for the charge of Jews adding to the law of G-d, what about Jesus? can you tell me why Jesus would possibly wear phylacteries? AKA TEFFILIN? http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/12125-phylacteries
That’s an oral tradition from the rabbis my friend, no details of the observance of that mitzvah are ANYWHERE described in WRITTEN Torah, BUT JESUS WORE THEM. Why does he celebrate Hannukah in John 10:22? Hannukah is not in the Hebrew Bible either, it was a festival instituted much much later by sages under the Macabees.
Why does Paul circumcise Timothy whose mother was Jewish and whose father was a gentile in Acts?
Why Does Acts 15 have specific rules FOR THE GENTILES about what is permissible FOR THEM to EAT and not? (You are not to consume blood, meat sacrificed to idols, or things strangled.) Why is this the case if the kosher laws are not in effect anymore? WHY DOES PAUL UNDERGO A VOW THAT REQUIRES THAT HE BRING A SIN OFFERING AT THE TEMPLE AFTER JESUS’ ascension and supposed institution of a “new law” ?
I submit to you, it’s not just Sunday that is wrong with the Churches, it’s the WHOLE theology, and a complete disregard for G-d’s law that G-D said was forever to be lived by the Jewish people. “Throughout your generations.”
YOU WOULD DO BETTER TO TRUST JESUS’ OWN PEOPLE, JEWS WHO RECIEVED THE BIBLE FIRST, RATHER THAN TRUST IN A CHURCHTHEOLOGY THAT YOU ADMIT IS INFUSED WITH PAPAL ERROR!
If Rome is false, Rome’s children are FALSE as well, and Jesus, (as amicable a guy he may have been) didn’t accomplish the redemption. I DONT SAY THIS TO UPSET YOU OR TO BE MEAN. I SAY THIS BECAUSE YOU WANT JEWS TO LEAVE THEIR RELIGION’S TRADITIONS FOR YOUR UNDERSTANDING OF JESUS. JESUS HIMSELF KEPT THESE TRADITIONS. HE WAS A MEMBER OF THE JEWISH PEOPLE. WHY TAKE JEWS AWAY FROM THEIR SOLID FOUNDATION?
I think that the base of your argument is wrong…..which is that Jesus kept the Old Covenant…as such it is binding today….
What you are forgetting is that Jesus lived during the times of the Old Covenant, as such He kept the Old Covenant….it was only at His death that the New Covenant started into effect….so you see…the basis for your argument is groundless…
Second, your health laws are still binding…
Third…that your feasts lost their religious signficance does not mean that one is prohibited to share camaraderie with others during this time..
God bless!!!
BR- Does it not bother you that your entire narrative of the need for a nazarne sacrifice is baseless? Why? The prophets of exile NEVER claim a dire loss of personal blood atonement and impending trip to hell.
Ezekiel was a prophet facing and then living in exile. What was his concern? Ezekiel the prophet, was a Cohen, a Priest!
That means atonement of his people would have been of utmost concern. And as a priest, specifically as a priest in exile, if blood sacrifices on the altar were no longer possible as the sole means of forgiveness, it would have been an intolerable situation for Ezekiel. Ezekiel lived during the Babylonian Exile. They had No Temple. They had No ability to offer sacrifice. So what did he write about?
Ezekiel mentions blood in various contexts, 46 times, second only to Leviticus (72). Sometimes with respect to idolatry, murder and the restored offering in the 3rd temple.
Ezekiel NOT ONCE…mentions the lack of blood sacrifice as a problem for personal salvation. There is not one lament of a now doomed people, lost and condemned without a blood sacrifice.
Ezekiel IS concerned about the departure of G-d’s Shekinah from the temple, the destruction of Jerusalem, idolatry, corruption, the lack of Torah observance, lack of Justice, Mercy and such….This a HUGE concern of Ezekiel’s.
Ezekiel writes about a restored Temple, Priesthood, Sacrificial system and the Jewish people being redeemed for the sake of G-ds name and the return of the Divine Presence to Jerusalem and the restored Temple….This is a huge concern of Ezekiel’s.
But he NEVER talks about blood sacrifice as something missing or being restored for us. It is about Hashem. A departing and returning Shekinah of Hashem.
He talks of a Jewish people wicked and corrupt…exiled
He talks of a geluah, a redeemed Jewish people, who now are observant and obey G-ds laws, statutes and ordinances. Why? If Jesus would be a sacrifice for all time is the temple returning? The Levitical priesthood…is returning…sacrifices are returning.
Nothing…nothing….. about ” ONLY blood sacrifices forgive sin”…. being lost and then restored. Nor a messiah to come and be this once-for-all korban sacrifice. Nor does Jeremiah, Isaiah, Daniel or Esther, who all lived in exile, write such a thing. Nor does Elijah or Elisha, who live in the Northern Kingdom and are forbidden to go to Jerusalem lament the loss on their “blood only atonement”.There is no basis in scripture at all for the christian concept of atonement by blood only. Hence no need for the church narrative of the man from Nazareth.
If he was concerned for the temple…
it is solely because he was concerned for what it was going on there…
if you then understand the why of the “lamb of God” as part of the temple ritual…
then you will understand what the Messiah was all about…and why the concern of Ezequiel…
Another point…the fulfilled “promise and oath”(the Everlasting Covenant, the promise and oath of the Messiah’s atonement with His blood),
a) was as good during the OT as if He had already come then(actually was His blood the one that gave meaning to the OT sacrifices)….and this same blood found pardon for Israel during the OT babylonian deportation while her temple was in ruins(because of the promise and oath)
b) and during the NT after 70ad(no more temple)..it is that same blood the one that found and finds pardon for all, known or unbeknown to the person..!!!
YOU MISSED MY POINT ENTIRELY!
HIS FOLLOWERS ARE OBSERVING TRADITIONAL JEWISH LAW AFTER!!! THE INSTITUTION OF YOUR SUPPOSED NEW COVENANT CONCEPT!!
You missed my point…
for one…they were not sacrificing any longer …you cannot say that…
what ended was the sacrificial system and oblations…
but …..
that the Jewish Christians participated in their national feasts…at the social level, or even circumcised their kids (I did it and I am no Jew)…that they had baptism or cleansing baths..that they cut their hair or let it grow… is not told not to do…
You do not understand that the New Covenant just took away their religious significance…that does not mean that to participate in those activities at the social or family life, or health activities levels…….that is not condemned during the New Covenant…
Bru, Paul underwent a Vow in Acts AFTER THE RESSURECTION THAT REQUIRED HIM TO BRING A SIN OFFERING AT THE TEMPLE. HE UNDERTOOK A NAZARITE VOW. LOOK IT UP!
Bru Ram, your assertion that Israel cannot atone for sin without “jesus blood/death” couldn’t be farther from the truth…Nowhere in the Tanach does it even hint that “jesus blood” is needed for Israel to receive forgiveness of sin from Hashem.
Leviticus 17:11 states that blood animal sacrifice is one way to atone for sin. However, it does not state that blood sacrifice is the only way to atone for sin…(also, note that “jesus blood/death” is also not mentioned here…Only animal blood!)
The prophet Daniel stood righteous before Hashem without a Temple. He didn’t need “jesus blood” or jesus in any fashion on order to stand righteous before Hashem.
Ezekiel 14:14 even if these three men–Noah, Daniel and Job–were in it, they could save only themselves by their righteousness, declares the Sovereign LORD.
You see, Daniel received forgiveness for his sins INDEPENDENT of jesus during the first exile. He did this by praying and sincerely repenting before Hashem. Daniel 6:11 states that he even did this in the face of death! Clearly, Daniel knew that his sincere repentance to Hashem brought him back to righteousness.
He was simply following the words of Jeremiah!
The context of Jeremiah 29 concerns what G-d expects of us during the exile in order to merit the rebuilding of the Holy Temple. Consider what is said in Jeremiah 29:12-14
Jeremiah 29:12. And you shall call Me and go and pray to Me, and I will hearken to you.
Jeremiah 29:13. And you will seek Me and find [Me] for you will seek Me with all your heart.
Jeremiah 29:14. And I will be found by you, says the Lord, and I will return your captivity and gather you from all the nations and from all the places where I have driven you, says the Lord, and I will return you to the place whence I exiled you.
G-d expected that the Israelites would pray to Him while in Babylon. The result of their prayers and repentance allowed them to return to the land and rebuild the Holy Temple.
This is precisely what Daniel did…
And this is precisely what Orthodox Jews do today! Hosea gives us a similar message:
Hosea 3:4. For the children of Israel shall remain for many days, having neither king, nor prince, nor sacrifice, nor pillar, nor ephod nor seraphim.
Hosea 3:5. Afterwards shall the children of Israel RETURN, and seek the Lord their God and David their king, and they shall come trembling to the Lord and to His goodness at the end of days.
How do we return to Hashem if we do not have any sacrifices? Hosea tells us in Hosea 14:2-3!
Hosea 14:2. RETURN, O Israel, to the Lord your God, for you have STUMBLED IN YOUR INIQUITY.
Clearly, the subject of the next verse explains HOW Israel is supposed to RETURN to Hashem so that OUR INIQUITIES WILL BE FORGIVEN. Of course, the next verse explains just that!
Hosea 14:3 Take WORDS with yourselves and RETURN TO THE LORD. Say, “YOU SHALL FORGIVE ALL INIQUITY and teach us [the] good [way], and let us render [for] bulls [the offering of] our lips.
Even though we have stumbled in our iniquity and have been put into exile, we still have a means of returning to Hashem though our sincere PRAYERS. We take our words and return to Hashem by saying; “FORGIVE ALL INIQUITY.” Nothing in Hosea 14:2-3 indicates that we need the blood of animals in order to atone for our sins during the exile. And most importantly, NOTHING in Hosea 14:2-3 says we need the blood of jesus!
This is why Daniel was able to stand righteous before Hashem, praying three times a day, despite the fact that he knew he would be thrown into a pit of lions if he continued to do so. Yet he continued to do so in the face of death! (Daniel 6:11)
If the Jewish people did not need “jesus blood” to merit the rebuilding of the Holy Temple during the first exile, then why would we need it now?!
Hebrews 9:22 is a false statement. It erroneously claims that “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sin.”
Lets take a look at II Chronicles 30:16-20 where it is HEZEKIAH’S PRAYER and NOT BLOOD which ATONES for the sins of the people…
II Chronicles 30:16. And they stood in their station as was their custom, according to the Torah of Moses, the man of God; the priests sprinkled the blood from the hand of the Levites.
II Chronicles 30:17. For there were many among the congregation who had not consecrated themselves, and the Levites were in charge of the slaughter of the Passover sacrifices for everyone who was unclean, to make it holy for the Lord.
II Chronicles 30:18. For a multitude of the people, many from Ephraim and Manasseh, Issachar and Zebulun, had not purified themselves, for they ate the Passover sacrifice not as it is written, for *Hezekiah had PRAYED**for them, saying, *”MAY THE GOOD LORD ATONE FOR**
II Chronicles 30:19. anyone who has set his whole heart to seek God, the Lord, the God of his forefathers, though [he be] not [cleaned] according to the purity that pertains the holy things.”
II Chronicles 30:20. *And THE LORD HEARKENED TO HEZEKIAH and HEALED the people.*
The Hebrew word יְכַפֵּר is used in verse 18. It means ATONE! Here we see that in the case of Hezekiah’s passover, many of his Israelite guests DID NOT cleanse themselves with BLOOD according to the Law of Moses. In order to ATONE for the sins of his people, King Hezekiah PRAYED TO HASHEM that he should grant ATONEMENT for all those in his Kingdom who truly turned their hearts to Hashem. Now, to further expand on this…In verse 16, it clearly states that the Levites were in charge of sprinkling BLOOD to purify Israel as it is stated in the Torah of Moses…Now, verses 17 and 18 say that there were many in Israel WHO DID NOT PURIFY THEMSELVES WITH THE *BLOOD* AS IT IS WRITTEN IN THE TORAH! When someone disobeys a Law in the Torah, what do we call that? We call it a SIN! Here, there were individuals who SINNED by NOT being purified by the LEVITICAL PRIESTS OF THE HOLY TEMPLE with BLOOD! Now, according to Hebrews 9:22, the only way to ATONE FOR SIN is through BLOOD! But here, the sin that was committed was that they DIDN’T use blood for atonement…So how is this sin atoned for?
According to Hebrew 9:22, it has to be blood! But is that how this sin was atoned for? NO! Their sins were atoned for in this manner:
II Chronicles 30:18 *Hezekiah had PRAYED**for them, saying, *”MAY THE GOOD LORD ATONE FOR**
II Chronicles 30:19. anyone who has set his whole heart to seek God, the Lord, the God of his forefathers, though [he be] not [cleaned] according to the purity that pertains the holy things.”
II Chronicles 30:20. *And THE LORD HEARKENED TO HEZEKIAH and HEALED the people.*
The sin of those not purified with the blood was atoned for through PRAYER! Thus, Hebrews 9:22 is an inaccurate statement…
And if you are still skeptical about atonement without blood, The Hebrew word יִּרְפָּא is used in verse 20 for the word “healed.” The root of this word is רְפָּא which means heal. Amazingly, this same root is used in Isaiah 53:5
Isaiah 53:5. But he was pained because of our transgressions, crushed because of our iniquities; the chastisement of our welfare was upon him, and with his wound we were *HEALED.*
The Hebrew word נִרְפָּא is used in verse Isaiah 53:5 for the word “healed.” This shares the SAME ROOT with יִּרְפָּא as shown above. In both cases, (Isaiah 53:5 and II Chronicles 30:20) a form of the word רְפָּא is used for the word “healed.”
Clearly, there are circumstances in which atonement can be made through PRAYER, particularly when blood sacrifice is not immediately available…
II Chronicles 33:9-13 demonstrates this same principle:
II Chronicles 33:9-13: “And Manasseh led Judah and the inhabitants of Jerusalem astray to do what was evil, more than the nations whom the Lord had destroyed from before the Children of Israel. And the Lord spoke to Manasseh and to his people, but they did not listen. And the Lord brought upon them the generals of the king of Assyria, and they seized Manasseh with hooks and bound him with copper chains and brought him to Babylon. And when he was distressed, he entreated the Lord his God, and he humbled himself greatly before the God of his fathers. And he PRAYED to Him, and He accepted his prayer, and He heard his supplication and He restored him to Jerusalem to his kingdom, and Manasseh knew that the Lord was God.”
Here we see that Manasseh used PRAYER to receive forgiveness of his sins as well. We see that when blood sacrifice is not available, prayer is a valid method of atonement for sin. Also keep in mind that under Manasseh’s rule, the kingdom of Judah was more idolatrous than it had ever been in the past! Clearly, Manasseh’s prayer served as a means of forgiveness/atonement without blood sacrifice and most importantly, without jesus!
Here we have a cause and effect: King Manasseh says a prayer asking for forgiveness and G-d accepts his prayer and restores him as King of Judah. No blood sacrifice was used to atone for King Manasseh as there is nothing in the text that would indicate such.
This proves that Hebrews 9:22 is a false statement. Blood sacrifice is not the only way to atone for sin. Your jesus has nothing to with our atonement.
May Israel merit the rebuilding of the Holy Temple and the reinstatement of the Levitical sacrificial system through our sincere prayer and repentance, speedily in our days!
Shalom
Jehuda…
I think the meaning of the blood of the lamb ….needs to be understood within the context of what God told Adam and Eve was going to solve the sin problem….
which was the “seed” of the women, which was going to do so…
If you think that pardon is found solely because you ask for pardon as such you have the right to be pardoned….that is wrong..
The truth is that the wages or sentence for sinning is death….she blood…
in the OT the animal sacrifices found their meaning in the Messiah to come…
and in the NT, you and I find pardon solely by the blood of Christ…
For people that were taught that atonement requires blood…
you really think now that just asking for pardon would do it?
No …you need the blood of the Messiah…
A people were given rites and ceremonies pointing to something bigger than themselves..
and guess what they got stuck in the rites and ceremonies…losing sight of what they meant and to what they pointed….the Old covenant was pointing to the New Covenant….
to fail to understand the real meaning of the Old covenant…means that nobody can either understand the New…..
Sorry…we broke the law…the sentence is death according to God as told at Eden…(notice even eating the wrong apple, meant they were to die)…
why then do you think, that things have changed…and just with asking forgiveness is enough…
No!!!
The Messiah that came and die…is the one that finds the pardon that you now enjoy… whether you know it or not!!!
by the way…I am not saying that asking pardon is not needed…
I am saying is that that pardon you ask is found in Christ blood…
Bru Ram, Yehuda is not saying that you merely ask a pardon, but that you have to change sinful behavior for forgiveness. EVEN IF YOU HAVE BLOOD SACRIFICES, THEY CANNOT ATONE FOR A SIN THAT YOU DONT REPENT OF. Ezekiel also clearly states, the one who sins shall die. Sons will not die for the sins of their fathers. ALL BLOOD IS IRRELEVANT WITHOUT REPENTANCE AND GODLY ACTION.
Bru Ram, how did the prophet Daniel receive forgiveness of his sins?
Remember, Daniel lived during the Babylonian exile. There was no Temple. And most importantly, there was no “jesus blood”!
Yet Daniel is called righteous in Ezekiel 14:14…
So it appears that Daniel did not need “jesus blood” in order to be seen as righteous by G-d!
So why would we need jesus?
We don’t…
Shalom
Sharbano says:
>>>>Are you really expecting anyone to read and follow what you wrote. It looks like you are just re-copying the same disjointed words. There are no complete understandable thoughts portrayed only a scattering of sentences.
Well…I tried my best…certainly English as a second language is difficult…
>>>Since you are primarily fixated on timelines understand this; In most all of these references it is speaking about the Four Exiles of the Jewish nation, Babylon, Persia, Greece and Edom. It’s no more difficult than that. Edom is the most terrifying of all, the final exile, which has lasted for the last 2000 years. It is the image the king of Babylon envisioned and other prophets also spoke of.
First of all the 4 beasts of Dan. 7…..are not where you went(which you might have gone)…
but who send you there….
and you are right for
1) Babylon
2) MedoPersia
3) Greece
4)…but this one is Rome…which was the empire that scattered you everywhere…and still oppresses you via Papal Rome….(although you might not recognize it…it was the empire who persecuted you all though the mid ages…and who sponsored all the wars and events of the past century…) I would advice…you rethink your understanding…
Yes….Rome..is the second Babylon…doing everything the initial one did….
as such in prophecy is also known as Babylon the Great/Papal Rome ruling the kingdoms of the world….and when you see her this september giving orders to the whole world from the throne she built for herself, the United Nations….then you will know what I am saying…
beware you Jewish people, if faithful to the law of God, the 7th day Sabbath, are going to be once again in the forefront of the tribulation…and so will we…the believers in the 7th day Sabbath as the sign of God for His people..the Israel of faith…we grafted in their midst…
Concerned Reader says:
April 26, 2015 at 6:47 pm
<<<<Bru Ram, I know that the number 666 taken from the book of revelation is understood by many scholars (Christian and not) as reffering to the emperor Nero, (who burned Rome down and blamed the Christians,) and that the later emperor Julian was also seen as an anti Christ. Rome was regarded as the kingdom that would hold dominion until the messiah comes. My point is, this puts traditional Christianity (whether Catholic Eastern Orthodox or Protestant) in a very bad and embarrassing position.
I do not know from where you get your information…
the fact is that 666 is a symbol which represents Sun woship…sunday its day….
What is so embarrassing?
<<>>Why do you try to bring Jews to Jesus when the only information we have about him is already filtered through a Roman lens that you truly consider to be a corrupt poisoned source?
First of all…I have said already…that there is good and bad people in every church, even yours.
second…the written of the New Testament is a first century accomplishment, and the cannon was already set by the 4th century for the most part..
The ultimate apostasy Papal Rome…is a product of the 5th century ….as such its influence came later.. previously although the empire endorse the Roman Church, still many faithful churches remained…
Concerning bringing Jews to Jesus…for the simple reason that by the end of time there will be only two groups, and everybody will make an informed choice, whether to accept Christ or the Antichrist. For Jews that do not know about Jesus is going to be difficult times…but God is providing information to be available, so that you make an informed choice…
Why I am here? I guess I realize that Jesus love you, that He was a Jew like you are, and that our religion is rooted in the expectations of Israel as fulfilled in Christ…so I feel a common bond…
specially when I believe the 7th day Sabbath is still binding….
and I know that God wants to share our message with others…and I want to you to be saved…
How I got here…I do not even remember…but here I am…today have dedicated this day to your place…who knows where I will be in the future…
You know the soon coming of the Antichrist/Papal.Rome to the United Nations, the throne she built for herself, has raised in me a high concern, that we are at the end, and not many people know it…
(regardless how many know it, in Noah’s time only 8 got saved…) Papal Rome is coming to make a pitch for the National Sunday Law of force worship, initially mild…later on persecutive…
either way this Sunday law is the Mark of the Beast, a one way ticket to eternal damnation….
and I really do not want any of you to take that mark…
keep faithful to the 7th day Sabbath…to do otherwise means perhaps temporal benefits, but longer term death….eternal death when God punishes the sinners…
>>Jews already know what they need to know because they have the laws of G-d in the Hebrew Bible
Knowledge does not saves…
only accepting Jesus’ blood brings salvation…
>>Jesus tells you don’t put faith in miracles because an adulterous generation seeks after signs,
agreed…
>>>and Paul and John tell you that the antichrist claims divinity and requires that people accept and serve him.
ok…
>>If you remove Jesus’ Jewishness from the equation, and you look at Christian theology, he becomes the textbook false messiah, even according to the NT.
But He was not a false Messiah….that is the difference…
your own prophecy in DAniel 8 points to Jesus as the true Messiah….
decree(renovation)/457bc—>+69weeks(483 yrs)–>27ad/JESUS THE MESSIAH ARRIVES
>>>Rome was the one who codified Christian doctrines, assumptions, and culture. Rome imposed Christianity on the world. If Rome is the beast, then their Jesus is too.
Wrong conclusions…
Does king Achab or Jezabel represent all you Jewish people?
You are generalizing, and that is erroneous…
You are wrong about Rome doing it all…
the New Testament books were all written in the first century when Rome was not around…
the gathering of the cannon was done during the next centuries as a common effort of all the christian churches….not just Rome…
by the time Papal Rome came ~500ad most if not all the books have being accepted as part ofthe cannon..
What ever Rome obscure and opress the true church…the true chruch survive through the ages, the Waldensian, Albigensian Huguenots all examples of God’s people…
and the reformation….brought about further truth…
You seem to forget that God has His people in all churches…even yours…
and despite all those christians that papal Rome killed…he could not get rid of the people of God…
they are here to stay…
as such there are still Elijahs….despite the many Achab and Jezebels in this world…
Bru Ram 666 has Nothing to do with the sun in itself. It’s a use of number to convey meaning called gematrtria
READ THE LINKS BELOW AND WATCH THIS VIDEO
http://www.equip.org/bible_answers/what-is-the-meaning-of-666/
http://penelope.uchicago.edu/~grout/encyclopaedia_romana/gladiators/nero.html
http://www.agapebiblestudy.com/charts/gemetria%20and%20the%20number%20of%20the%20beast%20666.htm
you are reading things too closely from your particular church perspective. Branch out a little, give these a read. Many Early Christians believed Nero was in fact the beast. HE WAS THE FIRST EMPEROR WHO REQUIRED PEOPLE TO WORSHIP HIM WHILE HE WAS STILL ALIVE! Most emperors were deified only after dying.
Please, read what is told in this site. I believe you are misinformed…
actually the Babylonian solar seal attest to the fact that the number 666 was the number given to the sun god…and its day of worship has being Sunday….
http://www.markofbeast.net/666-number-of-the-beast.html
I don’t know who where even cares about this 666 number and what it has to do with anything discussed here. Suffice it to say, when I had read that book some years ago I Did notice that it listed the 12 Tribes and couldn’t even get that right.There are enough flagrant errors in the Xtian text that it Should cause concern for anyone who reads it. This mistake, and all the others has led me to doubt if the authors of those texts were even Jewish.
The was answering to CONCERNED READER which was responding to some of my observations…as such apparently he does cares too…
I think that you are describing of the prophetic message of Revelation, which lists THE TRIBES THAT ARE GOING TO BE IN THE EARTH MADE NEW….right now you do not even know who are the 10 tribes…what makes you think that in the earth made new you are going to have the same 12 tribes. What it is obvious is that your 13 tribes (because levi is not counted among the 12), are not going to be exactly the same in the earth made new…(apparently the apostasy of one of them was so huge that will not have its name in heaven…I do not quite remember which one was….any way, there levi is going to be counted as one of the tribes….as such the variations there told…
so please take in consideration that Revelation is not saying which were the tribes of Israel of the OT….Revelation is instead saying which are the tribes that are going to have their names in heaven….which is not the same….
You should not be surprised about this…because you do know= that right now nobody knows who are the 10 tribes……actually the 10 tribes by now have mixed themselves with the gentiles…
Who told you the Tribes are unknown.
You wrote >>>you are reading things too closely from your particular church perspective. Branch out a little, give these a read.
Why should I branch into error?
I am following what the Bible says, it so happens that that is what my church teaches…
And I am going to show that it is those people that say that Nero is the Antichrist that are not reading the Bible nor preaching what it says there….
The Antichrist is not a single person…it is an apostate religious political system, that is a religious kingdom=
Dan 7:23 ….The fourth beast(ROME) shall be the fourth KINGDOM upon earth,
Dan 8:21
ANIMAL/BEAST = KINGDOM
SPECIFIC BEAST = SPECIFIC KINGDOM
And the rough goat(SPECIFIC BEAST) is the king(KINGDOM) of Grecia:
HORN= KINGDOM/NATION
“and the great horn that is between his eyes is the first king. ”
Now that(GREAT HORN) being broken, whereas four(HORNS) stood up for it(GREAT HORN), four ***kingdoms*** shall stand up out of the ***nation**(GREAT HORN), but not in his power.
THE ABOVE SHOWS… that in symbolic prophecy, animals and horns ruling the world for example, these represent kingdoms..and also when speaking of the “king” os such as such it symbolizes his kingdom as such a pleural entity…
A comparative study has shown that a particular entity(the Antichrist) is presented in multiple prophecies with similar or different symbols, but it can recognized by its actions and place in the prophetic timeline.
>>>Many Early Christians believed Nero was in fact the beast. HE WAS THE FIRST EMPEROR WHO REQUIRED PEOPLE TO WORSHIP HIM WHILE HE WAS STILL ALIVE! Most emperors were deified only after dying.
Nero is an specific person…as such he cannot be the little horn…yet the Little Horn in Dan. 8 does symbolizes the Roman Empire…which was the abominator desolator…
which is described as having two phases…an initial conquering phase(Dan. 8:9)
and a later religious phase during which it wars with heaven itself (Dan. 8: 10-12)…
it is this later phase the one that represents Papal Rome..which also causes the abomination desolation..this time of the christian church…..
Another thing…is that the little horn, Rome during its second phase is shown in power during the mid ages in the timeline of Daniel 8 (discussed above in another post)….
ruling from Rome during the mid ages….SOLELY PAPAL ROME…
so I certainly will not accept the error of all these protestants which have fallen for the false teachings of Futurism or Preterism…all created by Papal Rome to fool them…
Bru
It seems that you have a fear of being blocked. Look at this blog. It is not easy to get blocked from this site. If you have a respectful conversation you won’t be blocked – but if you just came here to preach and not to listen and interact then go to your own blog. It is obvious that you haven’t even read the explanation of Daniel 9 that others have proposed. If you want to stay here you have to demonstrate a willingness to hear and interact – not just to preach with your ears closed.
I have shared the truth and I have read what others said and answered them…so this has not being a one sided discourse as you are implying…
I have not purpose in being here an specific amount of time…so whenever you say is time for me to go…it is fine with me.
Knowledge does not saves…
only accepting Jesus’ blood brings salvation…
Not according to the Torah
He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: BY HIS KNOWLEDGE shall my righteous servant JUSTIFY MANY; for he shall bear their iniquities.
According to the Jewish Bible only the soul that sins will die. Nobody is punished for the Sins of another person. The people see the servant suffer AND REPENT. IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH BLOOD.
god has been creating blood and flesh for millions of years. Why was blood from children tastey to pagan gods ? Did God get inspired by pagan activities? For thousands of years before jebus , gods want to taste the blood coming from sliced Knecks of innocent children,then god makes blood and flesh for himself, gets himself beaten the crap out of and then cools down ? What is this blasphemy? Why did this pagan tripletarian god make washing powerder out of blood to appease himself? John the Baptist dunked him in water, but he prefers blood from open wounds ? What? God is “just” so he needs to self abuse himself only for the WEEKEND and then REWARD himself with finite life even though he is ever living ? Who thought of this stupid religion ?
Respect or lack of it shows what is in the heart of the person…
You still have not answerE the question….
who was the Messiah that according to your own Bible was to arrive at the end of the 69weeks(483 years) from the decree to restore Jerusalem(457bc, Ezra 7 decree. This decree of 457bc was the one that decreed the completion of the restoration by including the right to for Israel to rule itself…gave religious-political power back to Jerusalem/Israel…as such Israel a nation once again before God)=
27AD MESSIAH??
(7weeks 62weeks= 69weeks, as the time to count from point A/decree to point B/Messiah arrives. There is no punctuation between the components of this time period…
and they are not in different sentences as some ay…because punctuation did not existed in biblical Hebrew….)
The pagan perversion of the sacrificial system established by God has cause its misunderstanding… This God given right was practice by your own people using animals..had all through the Old Testament times but this was a temporary arrangement until the promised seed of Adam and Eve, same as the seed of Abraham, the Messiah or suffering servant could come and die… which is the “seed” of Adam and Eve which was to destroy Satan while saving us in the process=
THE PROMISE WAS ALWAYS FOR A SAVIOR TO COME, AND TO DIE IN OUR PLACE
Gen 3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.
Isa 53:8-9 ….
…..for he was cut off(KILLED) out of the land of the living:
***for the transgression of my people was he stricken.****
….And he made his grave with the wicked,…
God had said that the sinner must die…and ALL have sinned therefore all to die…
but God in His infinite mercy found a substitute to take our place so that you and I need not die… we only need to accept His sacrifice on our behalf….
KEY PROPHETIC TIMELINE OF DANIEL 9=
DECREE(to restore)/457bc == + 69weeks(483years) ==> 27AD= ARRIVAL MESSIAH
Who was the person who was anointed during His baptism to start His ministry in 27 ad=
ANSWER= solely Jesus…Our Messiah…
RETURN NOT RESTORE.
When was Jsus anointed. Never happened, at least there is NO record in the Xtian writing. A Baptism is NOT being anointed. Do you know the meaning of the word anointed IN Hebrew. It is NOT being “dunked in water”.
Bru
My article clearly explains who the two Messiahs of Daniel 9 are – the fact that you still ask the question demonstrates that you are not listening to what we have to say. If you want us to listen to you you need to be willing to listen to us.
I have to see what you say…
And as far as I read there are not two Messiah mentioned in Dan. 9….
here it is the vision of Daniel 9=
Dan 9:24
70 WEEKS OF PROBATION FOR THY PEOPLE AND CITY= FOR ISRAEL
Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city,…..
Dan 9:25
THE MESSIAH PRINCE…ARRIVES (AT THE END OF THE 69WKS from the decree)=
“that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem
UNTO the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks:….”
Dan 9:26a
THE MESSIAH….DIES AFTER 62 WEEKS
“And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself:”
Dan 9:26b
THE PEOPLE OF THE PRINCE THAT SHALL COME= destroys the city and temple???
WHO DESTROYS THE CITY AND TEMPLE= THE PEOPLE OF THE PRINCE TO COME
and “the people of the prince that shall come” shall destroy the city and the sanctuary;
and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
Dan 9:27
And HE (ANTECEDENT= THE MESSIAH THAT ARRIVES AND THEN DIES) =
a)
“shall confirm the covenant with many for one week(7YRS):”
b)
AND HE (THE ANTECEDENT MESSIAH THAT ARRIVES AND THEN DIES)
“and in the midst of the week(AT THE END OF 3.5 YEARS)
he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease(OLD COVENANT ENDED)”
c) IN THE ORIGINAL ABOMINATIONS AND DESOLATIONS TO FOLLOW=
“and for the overspreading of abominations ( NOT IN ORIGINAL=he) shall make it desolate, even until the consummation,”
d) THE ABOMINATOR DESOLATOR TO RECEIVE HIS DUES…
and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
WHAT DANIEL 9 TALKS ABOUT….IS
ABOUT THIS MESSIAH PRINCE THAT WAS TO COME..
ABOUT THIS MESSIAH THAT WAS THEN TO DIE/ATONEMENT
ABOUT THIS MESSIAH THAT WAS TO CONFIRM THE NEW COVENANT
ABOUT THIS MESSIAH THAT WAS TO STOP THE OLD COVENANT OF SACRIFICES
ABOUT THE PEOPLE OF THIS PRINCE THAT WAS TO DESTROY THE CITY AND T.
AFTERWARDS…ABOMINATION DESOLATIONS OF THE CITY AND TEMPLE ARE TO FOLLOW….(BY THE ROMAN POWER/70AD)…EVENTUALLY SHE WILL RECEIVED HER DUES…
THE WHOLE PROPHECY OF DANIEL 9 IS ABOUT THE MESSIAH TO COME…
INITIALLY CALLED THE MESSIAH PRINCE….AND CONTINUES CALLING HIM THE MESSIAH OR HE…ALSO REFERS TO HIS PEOPLE AS “THE PEOPLE OF THE PRINCE THAT WAS TO COME”….
THE PROPHECY…IDENTIFIES WHO IS THE MESSIAH BY ITS TIMELINE WHEN PROPERLY UNDERSTOOD. AND ALSO DESCRIBES HIS MISSION…
GOES FURTHER TO DESCRIBE THE ACTIONS OF HIS PEOPLE…
AND MENTIONS THE ABOMINATIONS AND DESOLATIONS TO COME…
AND HOW THIS DESOLATOR WAS TO RECEIVED HIS DUES…DESTROY AS WELL..
NO WHERE IN THE PROPHECY MENTIONS ***ANOTHER MESSIAH****,
THERE IS ONLY ONE MESSIAH…
People…the Messiah …the one and only that is to reconciled man back to God…as such cause the atonement was to arrive in 27ad…that is Christ…
Dan 9:24 Seventy weeks are decreed ….. to make atonement for iniquity,….
Yes…within that time period the atoning Messiah was to come….
since He was to arrive at the end of 69 weeks(7wks-62wks)…
confirming the next New Covenant for 7 years
He was then to DIE after His arrival (logical)…. dying in the midst of the 70th week,
(then it is evident HIs disciples are the ones that continue sharing the New Covenant solely for the Jews during the later half of the last week, later part of the 7 years)….
at the end of the 70 weeks…is the close of probation for your people…
Dan 9:24 Seventy weeks are decreed as to your people, and as to your holy city, ….
decre/457bc–>+490yrs->34ad(close of probation)…
40 years later destruction of the city and temple takes place……
a war broke up by the rebellion of the Jews and the result was the abomination of the 2nd temple, a fort was made out of it, and waring started…finally destroyed by the Romans…
but the question remain…whom does the prophecy says that was involved in the destruction of the city and temple? The People of the Prince To come…the People of the Messiah which was the one the prophecy is saying that He was to come….
Christ as the Messiah….brought salvation to you and me…regardless whatever happened…He is love…..and wants salvation for all…but He need to be accepted…He will not impose Himself on you or me…!!!!
UNTO the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks:….”
Sorry, It does NOT say that. Get a REAL Bible
Are still hung up on the 70 weeks. If 7 and 62 were to be taken together v26 would Not have been written…”And then after 62 weeks”. You keep using the word “restore”. The word is actually [Return] and rebuild Jerusalem. Therefore your supposition that “restoration” has to occur doesn’t correspond to the actual wording. And as such eliminates your Entire argument and renders is moot.
There is still the part that the anointed one will be cut off and will exist no more. That clearly eliminates your Jsus. Your use of the term “The Messiah” is factually inaccurate. Priesthood (anointed ones) no longer exist since there is no Temple.
WHAT the heck does Gen 3:15 have to do with Anything. As it is written the earth was cursed and this continues that the serpent also was cursed. There is evidence of snakes actually having in their structure what was once places where legs should have been.
If G-d “requires” a sacrifice then why does HE say HE does NOT.
Ok…
the decree….was it to restore?….was it to make Jerusalem the capital once again of Israel as a nation under God…..? or was was just to built the city and walls…
Is the word…for Jerusalem “to return” relevant only to its walls and bulding…
Or does a city desolate….may “return” to its previous complete political power..
Who is the subject or context of the term ” to cause to return”…
is it the city..?
or its it the people…?
answer= a word needs to be understood within its context…and in this case it is the city that it is “cause to return” to what it was….as such it is speaking of the citys restoration(at all levels physical, religious and political…)
IT IS THE CITY THE ONE THAT IS THE SUBJECT OF THE ACTION…
not its people…
a text without context ….is a pretext…
same goes for any “word”…as such a word without its context…is not properly understood…
HERE IT IS THE TEXT…AND THE WORD IS “shub”….to cause to return…
THE CITY “TO BE CAUSED TO RETURN” TO WHAT IS WAS BEFORE..
DAN.9:25 “Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment **to RESTORE*** and to build Jerusalem….”
**”To restore””” – Margin, “build again.” The Hebrew is, properly, “to cause to return” – להשׁיב lehâshı̂yb. The word might be applied to the return of the captives to their own land, but it is evidently used here with reference to the city of Jerusalem, and the meaning must be, “to restore it to its former condition.” It was evidently the purpose to cause it to return, as it were, to its former spendour; to reinstate it in its former condition as a holy city – the city where the worship of God would be celebrated, and it is this purpose which is referred to here. The word, in Hiphil, is used in this sense of restoring to a former state, or to renew, in the following places: Psa_80:3, “Turn us again – השׁיבנוּ hăshı̂ybēnû – and cause thy face to shine.” So Psa_80:7, Psa_80:19. Isa_1:26, “And I will “restore” thy judges as at the first,” etc. The meaning here would be met by the supposition that Jerusalem was to be put into its former condition. (BARNES COMMENTARY)
H7725
שׁוּב
shûb
shoob
A primitive root; to turn back (hence, away) transitively or intransitively, literally or figuratively (not necessarily with the idea of return to the starting point); generally to retreat; often adverbially again: – ([break, build, circumcise, dig, do anything, do evil, feed, lay down, lie down, lodge, make, rejoice, send, take, weep]) X again, (cause to) answer (+ again), X in any case (wise), X at all, averse, bring (again, back, home again), call [to mind], carry again (back), cease, X certainly, come again (back) X consider, + continually, convert, deliver (again), + deny, draw back, fetch home again, X fro, get [oneself] (back) again, X give (again), go again (back, home), [go] out, hinder, let, [see] more, X needs, be past, X pay, pervert, pull in again, put (again, up again), recall, recompense, recover, refresh, relieve, render (again), X repent, requite, rescue, restore, retrieve, (cause to, make to) return, reverse, reward, + say nay, send back, set again, slide back, still, X surely, take back (off), (cause to, make to) turn (again, self again, away, back, back again, backward, from, off), withdraw.
Since you seem to rely heavily on Strong’s concordance I’ll copy some other Xtians comments about using such a source.
__________________________
I’m sure you’ve all had the same experience. The speaker says “this word would be better translated xxx” and to justify the claim he points out (using Strong’s concordance) that the word comes from a root word meaning xxx. This is complete nonsense.
Imagine a manuscript in English being translated into some other language, and someone claiming that the word “terrific” should be translated to mean something like “terrible” because the two words have the same root. The word “butterfly” has nothing to do with butter or flies, although someone using an English equivalent of Strongs might think so. And when my athiest friends say “good-bye” I don’t imagine they are saying “God be with you” although that is how the word originated.
Looking up words also ignores the way the surrounding words can change the meaning. For example, I can “pick up” my children, or “pick on” my children, and they will notice the difference! The meaning of a phrase is not simply the addition of the meanings of the words in that phrase. This is why overly literal Bible translations are very unhelpful.
Language is far too complex to be able to determine the meaning of a word by its etymology or components, or to be able to determine the meaning of a phrase by the meaning of its words. Yet that is precisely the way many people treat biblical Hebrew and Greek, and use Strong’s concordance to do so.
The only reliable way to determine the meaning of a phrase is by contemporary usage. Even older usage is unreliable as is apparent in the use of the word “gay” which meant something very different only 50 years ago. The Bible was written over a period of more than 1500 years, so imagine what changes in language took place over that time!
Bible translators determine the meaning of a passage by looking for contemporary usage of the same words, both within and outside the Bible. The best translators spend decades reading everything available in ancient Hebrew or ancient Greek to learn how the language worked, in much the way we learn to understand contemporary English by reading novels, watching television and listening to people talk.
It is not possible to determine how a passage should be translated by looking up words in Strongs concordance. At best, knowing the underlying original word might help you spot wordplays (e.g., check out the meaning of the names in Micah 1:10-16), or identify how frequently a word is used, or how a word is used elsewhere. But it won’t tell you what any passage means or how it should be translated.
If you really want to be a translator, please do a degree in linguistics, do some postgraduate work in translation theory, then study the ancient biblical languages.
But that is probably not necessary. There are dozens of English translations of the Bible readily available, and translated by experts in the original languages. If none of them have chosen to translate a passage the way you would like it, then you are probably wrong.
____________________
Some further information on using Strong’s
_____________________
Lexical ambiguity: Consider the following sentence: “She is looking for a match.” Is the subject trying to light a candle or find a romantic partner? The ‘gloss’ definition here is ambiguous and gives us no help disambiguating the meaning in this context. Grammatical features should also be examined, which the Strong’s Concordance offers no help with.
1 I took a course on the Bible during my undergraduate program where a classmate argued that the woman in Luke 8:43-44 had a sexually transmitted disease (STD) on the basis of the King James Version translation and corresponding Strong’s Concordance gloss. The relevant text in the KJV translation reads, “And a woman having an issue of blood twelve years … Came behind him, and touched the border of his garment: and immediately her issue of blood stanched.” She understood ‘issue’ to refer to a ‘problem in’ the woman’s blood, rather than as (the correct understanding of the Greek text which is) ‘the flowing or coming out’ of blood from the woman’s body, i.e. hemorrhaging (likely a medical condition related to menstruation).
__________________
This goes to show the methodology of using a “concordance” is a faulty method in the extreme. One only convinces themselves into believing what they want it to be.
Sharbano, I love this! The only thing I don’t agree with is this line:
“If none of them have chosen to translate a passage the way you would like it, then you are probably wrong.”
Dozens of English translations have edited Isaiah 53 to make the singular use consistent throughout, although it changes to plural in two places.
I am at a loss to explain why, since some of the translations are liberal; even Jewish ones (though not Orthodox), have done this.
I looked at that line as saying if every source differed from one’s own there must be a difficulty in what one is thinking.
Translations are difficult at best. Some languages translate to each other because of inherent similarities. Hebrew doesn’t have that characteristic, by which it is called Lashon Kodesh. While there are some meanings that can have a counterpart in another language much is not as simple as that. So, I did hesitate on reading that sentence but considering the context of using a lexicon of a word to put meaning to a sentence made it appropriate.
Well….did you read the following verse…it really say that he died for the sins of others…
that is why He justified others…
Isa 53:5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, ….and with his stripes we are healed.
Isa 53:6 …..the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.
..
Isa 53:8 ….for he was cut off(KILLED) out of the land of the living:
***for the transgression of my people was he stricken.****
Isa 53:9 And he made his grave with the wicked,…
Isa 53:10 …when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin,..
Isa 53:11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied:
@@@@@by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities. @@@@@
Considering how Tanach is written if G-d wanted 53 to be about “your messiah” he would have written My Servant, My Anointed.
Isaiah says he was “isolated from men”, “accustomed to illness”, “regarded as diseased”, “oppressed”, “through his [wounds] we were healed”, “he has been released from captivity”, “persecuted and afflicted but did not open his mouth”, “an affliction upon Them that was my people’s sin”, “if his soul would acknowledge guilt”, “would see offspring”, “live long days and desire of Hashem would succeed in his hand”, “would see the purpose and be satisfied with his soul’s distress”. With all these examples there are no indications they relate to Jsus. Xtians may speak of being healed, but is it by Blood or is it merely “wounds”. Since it is wounds then he would NOT have had to die, only be wounded.
YOU WROTE >>>>Xtians may speak of being healed, but is it by Blood or is it merely “wounds”. Since it is wounds then he would NOT have had to die, only be wounded.
ANSWER…BUT THE PROPHECY SAYS THAT THAT WOUND BROUGHT HIS DEATH…
That was a mortal wound….and our Messiah did die/cut-off (Daniel 9)….as the Suffering Servant who as a result was “cut off”….which means=
Isa 53:8
…for he(SUFFERING SERVANT) was CUT OFF out of the land of the living:
for the transgression of my people was he stricken.
DAN. 9:26
Same as above “…And after threescore and two weeks shall MESSIAH be cut off, )
***He was cut off**** – This evidently denotes a violent, and not a peaceful death. See Dan_9:26 : ‘And after threescore and two weeks shall the Messiah be cut off, but not for himself.’ The Septuagint renders it, ‘For his life is taken away from the earth.’ The word used here (גזר gâzar), means properly “to cut, to cut in two, to divide.” It is applied to the act of cutting down trees with an axe (see 2Ki_6:4). Here the natural and obvious idea is, that he would be violently taken away, as if he was cut down in the midst of his days. The word is never used to denote a peaceful death, or a death in the ordinary course of events; and the idea which would be conveyed by it would be, that the person here spoken of would be cut off in a violent manner in the midst of his life.
Rome was not around…
WHAT? ……………BRU RAM Rome was very much around and functional in the 1st century.
I am referring to the roman influence in Christianity as having anything to do with their doctrines and self ruling….that did not happen then during the first century. =
a)
The writers of the New Testament were all Jews except perhaps for Luke that was a converted greek. Rome of the first century did not take part in the writing of the New Testament books and did not set doctrines.
b)
The Roman influence started in 312ad when Constantine the Roman Emperor became converted, and the church of Rome by virtue of being in the capital of the empire certainly had importance, but even during this period and thereafter, many churches were the ones that had to do with the formation of the cannon.
b) It was only after 538 ad, that Rome was given power over the other churches by the Eastern Emperor Justinian….. and also since by this date that the church in Rome also became the state…..as such finally Rome took religious political powers, which were an intoxicating mixture which used to dominate the other churches… but by this time the cannon was already formed in the previous centuries….as such Papal Rome was not in power during the time the cannon was set (that is not in power before 538ad)…
Bru
I suggest that you carefully read these articles
https://yourphariseefriend.wordpress.com/2012/02/08/fifth-response-to-dalton-lifsey-isaiah-956-67/
https://yourphariseefriend.wordpress.com/2012/02/07/thomas-on-isaiah-95-6/
https://yourphariseefriend.wordpress.com/2013/01/17/daniel-924-27/
And this excerpt
III. 13. Page 103
Brown argues that the difficulty in joining the two time periods in Daniel 9:25 (the seven and sixty two weeks) is not grammatical. This is incorrect. The Hebrew word which follows the sixty two weeks (“tashuv”) lacks the prefix “and” (the Hebrew letter “vav”). Unless we recognize that the sixty two weeks is separated from the previous seven, the last part of the verse is hanging in the air in a grammatical sense.
please don’t respond until you read these and consider them carefully – it is unethical to come here to preach with your ears stuffed with cotton.
After reading the link regarding Daniel I can see where Bru is coming from. The explanation of the Xtian version is clear and concise and seems to follow what Bru was attempting to say. With all the reading and re-reading I simply could not grasp and follow his sequence of events. Indeed the article on Daniel covers it all.
I am sorry I was not clear…but I must confess that the timelines I provided for its clarification were erased by the format of this program…or whatever…
1) This is the basis of what I was saying… Daniel 9 presents a timeline of 70 weeks…
and like any timeline there is an starting point and an ending point….The starting point was the decree (which was a composite decree instigated by Cyrus, continued by Darius, but finalized by Artaxerxes in 457bc, as the decree that finally gave Jerusalem religious political powers once again…the power to rule herself(certainly under the eye of the empire)…
=therefore 457bc is the date of the decree which is the starting point to calculated the 70 weeks(490 years)
starting point = decree (to restore Jerusalem+temple)
timeline= 70 weeks = 490 years
timeline subdivided in 3 periods= = 70weeks
70 weeks X 7prophetic days/week = 490 prophetic days = 490 years
2) This timeline of the total of 70 weeks is divided in 3 sub-periods which are continuous, as such =
Starting point/decree Ending Point/end.of.probation
Starting point/decree Ending Point/end of probation
Cyrus-Darius-Artaxe. End of Probation
Starting point=457bc 34ad/End of Probation
Starting point=457bc (A)/27ad—> 34ad/End of Probation
Starting point =457bc (A)-X/31ad->34ad/End of Probation
Starting point =457bc (A)-X/70th–>34ad/End of Probation
A= arrival of the Messiah (27ad)
X= death of the Messiah (31ad)
E= end of probation (34ad)
As such the prophecy is not complex…once the understanding is known that the 70 weeks a) is divided into 3 consecutive sub-periods of times…which sum is 70weeks…
b) which are ….+7…+62….+1 = 70 weeks
c) starting point of the timeline being the decree(to restore Jerusalem) of 457ad
( which is the culminating decree, of Cyrus-Darius-ArtaX..finalized in 457bc)
d) ending point 70weeks later(490 years later) as the end of probation for Israel
e) the Messiah arriving(A) at the end of the 69 weeks (same as end of the 62 weeks)
f) the Messiah dying (X) AFTER the 69 weeks (same as AFTER 62 weeks)
g) the Messiah dying (X) during the 70th week..the last week…
h) the end of the 70 weeks = as the end of probation for the nation of Israel
i) near 40 years later….the judgments come…70ad…
A point that needs to be understood…and will unlock this prophecy of the 70 weeks
…is a simple fact… THE END OF PROBATION…WAS IT REAL….
and its result was foretold int he same prophecy….
According to the OT prophetic teachings….
which was the temple and city that was to be once again to be desolated as a result of a non-successful period of probation? Did it happened as foretold? We all know the answers to those questions….We all know that same renovated temple was foretold that it was to be destroyed once again, as told in the same prophecy of Daniel 9.
Since the prophecy…actually describes a non-succesful period of probation for the nation of Israel… how we know this, simply because their Messiah is killed (all alone, with no support from His people) and by the fact that their own city and temple was told to be destroyed soon thereafter…in the same prophecy….
Then the abomination and desolation are shown soon following the Messiah that was to come….since this destruction of the city and temple happened in 70 ad..
it is logical that the end of the period of probation was close to 70ad(when it actually was desolated)….rather than 500 years before during the times of Cyrus or the second Messiah some believe in..still…somewhere in the OT…)>>>
Yet it was Jesus in 31ad…who as the Messiah…fulfills the prophetic timelines as shown above….and in top of that soon after His death/31ad….the destruction of that renovated Jewish temple took place in 70 ad….which close proximity further fulfills what is foretold in the prophetic message of Daniel 9….
Dan 9:26 ….
LOOK FOR THE MESSIAH SHORTLY BEFORE 70 AD…NOTICE THE CLOSE RELATIONSHIP OF THE EVENTS, RELATED TO THE MESSIAH’S DEATH…AND THE SOON TO FOLLOW DESTRUCTION OF THE CITY AND TEMPLE IN 70 AD…
A)
MESSIAH DIES….
“And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself:
B)
AND WHAT COMES SOON AFTER???
and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary;
and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
THE SAME IS FORETOLD IN THE FOLLOWING VERSE=
Dan 9:27
A)
THE MESSIAH ALIVE DURING THE 1 WEEK..70TH WEEK (FIRST PART)….
“And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week:
B)
THE MESSIAH TO END THE OLD COVENANT IN THE MIDST OF 70TH WEEK
and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease,
C) SOON THEREAFTER ABOMINATIONS AND DESOLATION FOLLOW/70AD,
THE DESTRUCTION OF THE CITY AND TEMPLE…
and for the overspreading of abominations ….(NOT “he”, THIS IS NOT THE MESSIAH, BUT OTHER..THE “HE” IS NOT IN ORIGINAL) shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
I am pretty sure, that despite the events that followed and took place in 70 ad…
God had something better for all of us…Jews and Gentiles alike…
In Christ the Messiah…Israel found its success…. and so can we…
God provided the New Covenant for all, His original people Jews and “adopted”Gentiles alike ….it were Jews like you that brought that message to us gentiles under great peril to their lives for the most part….The success of His work…is united to his church The Israel of God….
So…the prophecy ties those two events (the arrival and death of the Messiah and the destruction of Jerusalem and temple/70ad) as taking place close to each other..
so it is logical to look for the Messiah as being in action shortly before 70ad(the destruction of the city and temple)….and certainly Jesus did come in 27ad….which is very close…
(Cyrus, or the second Messiah which I do not think the prophecy speaks as such…but ….whichever these were not associated with the ending point of the prophetic message as was the Messiah Jesus(27/31ad) and the soon to follow abominations desolations of the Jewish temple and City as foretold in the prophecy itself of Daniel 9…
It is knowing the historic fact of 70ad….which the prophecy says that was soon to follow 31ad…that gives us confidence we have identified the Messiah foretold…
Nobody wanted things to turn out they way they did…but so is human nature, and for all of us he finds a way…the victory of the Messiah is the victory of Israel…
We Christians have not fare better….we have in our midst the Antichrist which is the cause of all the wars and killings that have taken place since its inception in 538ad/Papal Rome…we are all witness of their apostasy…but God has always people that have not bowed before Baal….
So let us not look to our human failures…
let us look to the heaven to come…and the earth made new….
and Israel finally getting their New City..and temple..the New Jerusalem right there in the Mount of Olives….., which temple is the presence of God Himself here on earth…Amen!!
“I am sorry I was not clear…but I must confess that the timelines I provided for its clarification were erased by the format of this program…or whatever…”
Maybe you should just type into the textbox in the reply and therefore what you see is what you get.
So, since you couldn’t make the timeline work according to the written word Now you inject a “probation”. You keep trying to add the times of the three kings. Certainly there is no justification to do this. Instead you are relying on the time/date of Artaxerxes and dismissing the era of Cyrus. This is a contradiction of the written word, Isaiah and Ezra.
WELL…Where you send me…I will discuss this…
you wrote >>>>My position is that to point to a man, who looks like a man, smells like a man, and does everything else like a man – and say that this man is somehow the God of Israel – is even more impossible and absurd than saying that good is bad, that light is dark and that east is west. This is not a “predisposed assumption”, but a truth that is based on the teaching of God (you could start with Isaiah 44).
1) you are limiting the power of God….IF God wanted to have His plan of salvation as such…there is nothing that can interposed in His purpose… So could it be that you do not understands Gods plan of salvation???
2) Since the Plan of Salvation…God’s way is shown in His sanctuary…
then let us go to the sanctuary and find out “GOD’S WAY’ according to the Psalm..
1) entering through the door….the altar of sacrifices….
what was the reason for the sacrifices…there were various offerings= but let us concentrate in the ones dealing with the sin problem…
the lamb= the sinner place his sins in the head of the lamb, and then he was to killed this lamb….as such the sinner found pardon…
2) but the blood with the sins were taken by the priest into the holy place and sprinkle before the curtain and in the altar of incenses…this means that the blood/sin mixture was then taken into the sanctuary…
3) but by the end of the Jewish year, as type of the time of the end..Yom Kipur..as the day of judgment took place….for those people of Israel that had all their sins pardon and transfered to the sanctuary with the blood of the lamb as a source of pardon…
they remain as part of Israel….those that did not were removed from the camp…
as such judgment took place…
We see above, that the sin problem required the shedding of blood (or eventual shedding of blood…because whether their was not sacrifices during the times of the babylonian deportation or even after the destruction of the temple in 70ad…the fact that man obtains pardon is because sooner or later …or previously some one had shed His blood…the Messiah)….
ATONEMENT= RECONCIALIATION BACK TO GOD…REQUIRES THE CLEANSING OF SIN FROM THE PERSON WITH THE BLOOD OF THE SIN OFFERING=
Exo 30:10 And Aaron shall make an atonement upon the horns of it once in a year with the blood of the sin offering of atonements: once in the year shall he make atonement upon it throughout your generations: it is most holy unto the LORD.
2Ch 29:24 And the priests killed them, and they made reconciliation with their blood upon the altar, to make an atonement for all Israel: for the king commanded that the burnt offering and the sin offering should be made for all Israel.
THIS SAME CONCEPT TRANSLATES IN WHAT CHRIST DID=
1Jn 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
NOW….ACCORDING TO ISAIAH….A SON OF MAN …WAS TO ATONE IN OUR FAVOR=
A) HE WAS WOUNDED FOR OUR SINS…AND WITH HIS WOUND WE ARE HEALED=
Isa 53:5 But he was wounded for our transgressions,…and with his stripes we are healed
.
B) GOD PUT OUR SINS ON HIM=
Isa 53:6 …..the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.
C) HE WAS OUR LAMB….
Isa 53:7 …..he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter,…
D) HE DIED/WAS WOUNDED…FOR OUR TRANSGRESSIONS(SINS)
Isa 53:8 ….for he was cut off out of the land of the living:
……………….for the transgression of my people was he stricken.
E) THE DEATH OF THIS SERVANT= AN OFFERING FOR SIN= THE LAMB…
Isa 53:10 …. when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin…
F) ALTHOUGH HE DIED, HE WILL BE RESURRECTED AND SEE THE FRUITS OF HIS WORK=
Isa 53:11a He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied:
G) BY HIS KNOWLEDGE HE SHALL JUSTIFY MANY,
HOW IS THAT KNOWLEDGE PUT IN ACTION? HE BEARS HIS INIQUITIES…
BY MAKING HIMSELF AN OFFERING FOR SIN (SEE ABOVE ISA. 53:10=when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin…)
Isa 53:11b “by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many;
for he shall bear their iniquities.”(HOW? as an offering for sin)
Isa 53:12 … because he hath poured out his soul unto death: ………….
………………..and he was numbered with the transgressors;
………………. and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.
Now we have find out something…which is in making Himself an offering for sin, by baring their iniquities, is that the Servant justify many….
Now…let us remember the Lamb….spotless….no sin whatsover….because that is the only way that his blood could cleanse us…
Then the question remains….can you find out a person that have not sinned and therefore can atone for us?….No…we all have sinned…
So…who is this righteous servant who was sinless and who did atone for us somewhere in the midst of the 70th week?
answer= only God could die so that we may live…because of His perfection and because He was our creator then He could be our redeemer….
but can God die?….No….certainly not as God…
that is why God became man….
so that being a man could die, and being God could save us…
So Christ as the Son of God….is the perfect redeemer…both God and man….
as such He can save us …by dying…
The truth is that within the context of the Plan of Salvation as shown in your sanctuary….
you will not find any other Messiah…but Jesus both God and man….to accomplish such a great fete….our salvation…
Bru Ram. You seem to suggest that for Dina to deny the possibility of an incarnation is to place a limitation on G-d’s power or nature. I also used to believe this, that is until I researched and learned more.
Let us say (for the sake of argument) that the Church is right about the deity of Jesus Christ, that he is indeed G-d’s unique son, and also a manifestation of G-d. (Judaism doesn’t and can’t accept this, but FOR THE SAKE OF ARGUMENT.)
I don’t know if you realize this or not, but you have already explained by yourself in earlier posts the inherent idolatrous problem with this belief about G-d becoming flesh. From what I understand from your previous posts, you believe that the papacy is the beast/false antichrist system that will usher in the end times. REALIZE, THE FACT THE FACT THAT THE PAPACY uses the SAME GOSPEL TEXTS you use, they too call on the name Jesus, as the one who appeared as a man who died on the cross. In this man’s death, they also hope for redemption from G-d tge father.
According to you, they have the meaning of Jesus’ message in the gospels wrong. THIS PROBLEM ILLUSTRATES THE HUGE PROBLEM WITH SAYING G-d COULD manifest as a man.
If G-d manifested as a man, he became truly limited like us, and even if he was without sin, he became ripe for exploitation by other sinful human beings, empires, systems of government, etc. HE EFFECTIVELY HAD (and is PRESENTLY having) HIS SOVREIGNTY ABUSED BY HUMANS.
For Jews to say that G-d WILL NOT BECOME FLESH is not to limit what G-d could possibly do, it is rather to preserve the SOLE SOVREIGNTY OF G-D THE FATHER and to say WHAT HE WONT DO BECAUSE ITS NOT HIS WILL.
A god of flesh can suffer the afflictions of flesh. He can be controlled, molded, abused by human beings. THIS IS THE DEPTH AND HEART OF WHAT SCRIPTURE CALLS IDOLATRY, WHEN A HUMAN TAKES CONTROL OF A DOMAIN THAT IS NOT HIS TO CONTROL.
ASK YOURSELF, CAN G-d take on the form of a BURNING bush? WHY OR WHY NOT?
IF YES, WOULD YOU PRAY IN THE NAME OF THE FATHER AND BUSH AND HOLY GHOST IF A PREACHER OR TEXT TOLD YOU TO?
https://yourphariseefriend.wordpress.com/2011/05/17/tell-them-jeremiah-1011/
Sharbano says:
>>>>When was Jsus anointed. Never happened, at least there is NO record in the Xtian writing. A Baptism is NOT being anointed. Do you know the meaning of the word anointed IN Hebrew. It is NOT being “dunked in water”.
You are right His anointement was not in the baptism…
His anointment was by the Holy Spirit in a form of a Dove….
Act 10:38 Jesus the One from Nazareth, how God anointed Him with the Holy Spirit and with power, who went about doing good, and healing all those having been oppressed by the devil, because God was with Him.
your phariseefriend, since you send me to this links about your posts… I have gone through them…
I am very much interest in this post…. After analyzing Daniel 9, it seem the diverging understanding of this prophecy is rooted in the length of the timeline as given….
is this timeline of Dan. 9…. A OR B below ?
A)
from the decree UNTO the Messiah shall be = “7weeks62 weeks”= 69weeks= (483 years)
B)
from the decree UNTO the Messiah Prince shall be = 7 weeks (49 years)..+ another Messiah to come
EITHER …point A or point B is right…but which is it???
Lets see what you said=
Daniel 9:24 – 27 byyourphariseefriend
“Seventy weeks have been decreed upon your people and upon your holy city to end the transgression, and to complete iniquity, and to expiate sin, and to bring everlasting righteousness, and to seal vision and prophet, and to anoint holy of holies. And you will know and understand from the going forth of the word to restore and build Jerusalem until anointed (a) leader, (is) seven weeks, and sixty-two weeks it will return and be built square and moat and in the travails of times. And following the sixty-two weeks (an) anointed (one) will be cut off and he has not, and the city and the sanctuary will be destroyed by the nation of the leader that comes, and his end will be with a torrent, and until the end wars it is decreed desolation. He will strengthen (a) covenant with many (for) one week, and (for) a half week he will abolish sacrifice and meal offering and upon the wing (of) abominations desolation and until extermination as decreed will be poured out upon (the) desolation.”
You wrote=
>>>Before we begin with the various interpretations of this passage, it would be in order to clarify a few points. Both Christians and Jews understand that the seventy weeks of this passage, refer to sets of seven years. Scripture uses this term of reference in relation to the Sabbatical year mentioned in Leviticus 25:8. Christians and Jews likewise agree that the time period of the seventy weeks, generally parallels the Second Temple era. There are several Christian variations of the interpretation of these ambiguous verses, as well as several Jewish interpretations. We will try to provide a synopsis of both the Jewish and Christian interpretations. (Some Christian scholars agree to the Jewish understanding of the passage, we will be presenting a synopsis of those Christian interpretations that see this passage as a reference to Jesus.)
Ok…..yes there are differing views especially concerning the last week or 70th week….
the worst is Futurism which cuts the 70th week away from its peers to which it is united as we shall see, and then transposes that week(7 years) 2000 years into the future….there calling it the
7 years tribulation, by the abomintor desolator… In so doing leaving behind the truth…First of all one cannot brake a piece of time and move it into the future at will…that is illogical…
Let me show you…what Futurist do…in an example…
70 years are the period of probation to the city and Israel….yet they cut off the last week and move it into the future….
Can a probationary time period be cut off in pieces as the Futurist do….?
Can they move away the 70th week when the prophecy itself ties it to the other 69,
by anchoring these 69 weeks to the 70th week as the times of the life of the Messiah..
(anchored in the fact that the Messiah coming at the end of the 69 weeks, is then to continue in action during the 70th week as the time of His ministry, and death, week during which was scheduled to confirm the New covenant and at the same time cause the end of the Old Covenant, at the time of his atonement at His death…(since the atonement/reconciliation takes place during the 70 weeks as per Daniel 9:24)
>>>>According to the missionaries, the seventy weeks began towards the beginning of the Second Temple era.
Certainly so…since the starting point of this timeline of 70 weeks was to the order for the restoration of the city and temple(previously desolated, abominated and destroyed by the Babylonians)…this decree for its restoration as given by MedoPersia in 457 bc…
It is then logical that what follows the decree was its actual restoration, culminating of the restored Second Temple starting to function once again…all these happening during the early 70 weeks (that is the decree and actual restoration followed swiftly…as such part of the start of the 70 weeks))
STARTING POINT= 457BC
DECREE FOR RESTORATION…FOLLOWED BY THE ACTUAL RESTORATION
>>>>The missionaries understand the verse that speaks of the coming of an anointed leader is to be read as follows – from the going forth of the word … until anointed leader is seven and sixty-two weeks. In other words, the anointed leader comes after sixty-nine weeks.
FROM DECREE(TO RESTORE)—69WEEKS–> UNTO the Messiah….
FROM DECREE(TO RESTORE)–(7WEEKS 62WEEKS)–>UNTO THE MESSIAH….
>>>For the missionary the rest of the verse is disconnected from the beginning.
Thus the phrase “it will return and be built …” stands alone.
Excellent…that is a declarative statement which stands on its own.
That statement (it will return and be built…”) is not defining the timeline, although certainly this is alluded as taking place during the timeline, logically near the first part which was when this decree was given for the temple and city restoration. History itself tells us that the restoration of the city and temple soon followed the decree for the same…
>>The anointed one to be cut off after the sixty-two weeks is the same one who came after the sixty-nine weeks.
The fact is that 69 is never told as such in the prophecy….only the sequence(7wks62wks) is given in the prophecy…as such the ending point of this sequence is solely found at the end of the second element which is the 62 weeks….therefore….=
a) logical that the Messiah arrives at the end of the 62 weeks since it is the ending point of the timeline(7wks.62wks) in question which says…=
“From the decree UNTO the Messiah shall be 7wks-62weeks”
+7wks.62wks–>(A)arrival Messiah
same as saying= The Messiah arrives at the end of the 62 weeks (after the initial 7 weeks)
same as saying= The Messiah arrives at the end of the 69 weeks (7wks.62wks)
b) logical that the Messiah dies AFTER his arrival(which took place at end of the 62wks)…
……………………..AFTER 62 WEEKS the Messiah is to die
……………………..AFTER 69 WEEKS the Messiah is to die…
both are the same statement….all depends from where one is counting…
that is 69 weeks from point D(decree)
sames 62 weeks from Y(the end of the initial 7 weeks)…
as such both have a common ending point….
(D) + (“7wks.62weeks”)–>(A)–(X/after A)–>E/end of probation
(D) decree of restoration as the STARTING POINT(Cyrus-Darius-Artax./457bc)
(A)= arrival at “the END of the 62 weeks” (same as at “the end of 69weeks”)
(X)= death of the Messiah AFTER 62 weeks( same as AFTER 69weeks)
(E)= ending point
IT IS EVIDENT..THEN…
AT THE END OF THE 62 WEEKS = MESSIAH ARRIVES
AFTER THE 62 WEEKS= THE SAME MESSIAH IS TO DIE….
>>Thus the anointed one is Jesus, and these verses refer to his arrival and death. The introductory verse to this passage, describing the ending of sin and the completion of iniquity is understood to be a description of Jesus’ purpose and mission.
Wow…there was I struggling to tell this same thing….and you did it so much better….!!
God bless!!!
Yes…those 6 points are found in Jesus blood…because ..
finding pardon…then 0 sins
finding power to not sin = then 0 sins
result= sinless person….the end of sin in Christ…Wonderful!!
as a result= having no sin, we are then reconciled back to God…which is atonement(at oneness with God)…
>>>The closing verse in this passage is understood by missionaries to be a reference to the seventieth week.
yes…the 1 week is the 70th week (since the initial 7wks, and following 62 weeks were accounted for previously in the prophecy)…
70th week= the 1 week= the last week of the 70 weeks prophecy…
>>>>There is disagreement amongst missionaries concerning this seventieth week. All of the missionaries understand that it is disconnected from the sixty-nine weeks. The question is, when will it, or was it, fulfilled. One group understands that the seventieth week was fulfilled with the destruction of the Temple, forty years after Jesus’ death. Others understand that the seventieth week will be fulfilled immediately before Jesus’ anticipated second coming.
Wow…there we have it…those Missionaries following unbeknown to them the ideas introduced in Christianity by the Jesuists teaching of Futurism and Preterism…all in error…
(the historicism is the right understanding…which says that all those 70 weeks form a continuous block of time…simply because the cross tie them as one…simply because the 70th week was used initially by the Messiah Jesus for his ministry and death in the midt of that week, in so doing confirming and ratifying the New Covenant initially solely to them during that week(first half by Jesus and second half by the message given by His disciples)…
THE CROSS ANCHORS THAT 70TH WEEK TO ITS PEERS (THE OTHER 69 WEEKS)…HOW IS THIS SUCH…LOOK FOR THE CROSS AND FIND OUT WHAT HAPPENED TO THAT 70TH WEEK= KEY DETERMINANT POINTS=
KEY UNDERSTANDING = WITHIN THE 70 WEEKS….BUT AFTER THE 69 WEEKS, means the Messiah dies within, in the midst of the 70th week…= as such no longer available…
A) THE ATONEMENT/DEATH OF THE MESSIAH WITHIN THE 70 WEEKS
Dan 9:24 Seventy weeks are decreed ….. to make atonement (DEATH) for iniquity,
B)THE ATONEMENT/DEATH OF THE MESSIAH AFTER THE 69 WEEKS(AFTER 62WKS)
Dan 9:26 And after sixty two weeks, Messiah shall be cut off,
THEREFORE= THE ATONEMENT DEATH OF THE MESSIAH WITHIN THE 70TH WEEK
MEANING= that the 70th week belongs to the times of Jesus FIRST COMING as the Messiah(27ad to 34ad, which is the last or 70th week) which means that this 70th week was used by Jesus and his disciples to give in force the New Covenant during his first coming, and therefore cannot be moved forwards await from its peers(the other 69 weeks) The death of the Messiah in the midst of the 70th week, further tells us that it is anchored in place and cannot be moved.
The death of the Messiah in the midst of the 70th week, also tells us that was He/Jesus the one that ratifying the New Covenant at His death, also annuled the Old Covenant of sacrifices and oblations as the prophecy itself tells us….
THE DEATH OF THE MESSIAN IN THE MIDST OF THE 70TH WEEK…FAMOUS 7 YEARS…
MEANS THAT FUTURISM AND PRETERISM…ARE ALL A LIE BECAUSE THAT 70TH WEEK WAS NOT AVAILABLE T TO BE MOVE AROUND (whether 70ad/preterism or 2000+ad/futurims)…..
as such such prophetic scenario of the 7 year tribulation, pretribulation rapture and tribulation force(2nd chance) is all lies…a great deception of most of the Protestants that so believe induced by the catholic counter-reformation which wants to destroy Christ, they being the Antichrist..
….Both futurism and preterims have no foundation….are evil deceptions to confuse others…
>>>>This interpretation (or these interpretations) fails for several reasons. Most obvious, is the fact that the verse clearly implies that the cutting off of the anointed one is to occur together with the destruction of the city and the sanctuary, after sixty-two weeks. Jesus died several decades before the Romans sacked Jerusalem.
NON-SPECIFIC TIME PERIOD “AFTER 62 WEEKS”(SAME AS AFTER 69 WEEKS) FOR THE MESSIAH’S DEATH AND THE DESOLATION BY THE ABOMINATOR DESOLATOR…
Be careful here….because “”AFTER 62 WEEKS” (same as after 69 weeks, which is the same as saying “after the arrival of the Messiah” since he arrived at the end of the 62/69weeks) is in fact a non-determinate time period…anywhere from there to eternity..
a)
which means anything listed as taking place AFTER 69 WEEKS (SAME AS AFTER 62 WEEKS), its date is not given in the prophecy….which are the i) the death of the Messiah and ii) the abominator.desolator actions (as accomplice the people of the Prince to Come…which is in fact the People of the Messiah which was the one foretold to come in the same prophecy)
Dan 9:26 And “after sixty two weeks”(NON-SPECIFIC TIME PERIOD/ANYWHERE THEREAFTER)
i) Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself.
ii) And the people of a coming ruler shall destroy the city and the sanctuary.
iii) And its end shall be with the flood, and ruins are determined, and war shall be until the end.
for (i)
yet… for the Messiah there is further information in the same prophecy which localizes his death point as taking place within the 70th
(such like the information combo, “within the 70 weeks, but after the 69weeks, which means within the 70th week”) because….for the Messiah we know several things which is that:
– since He causes the atonement/reconciliation at his death during the 70 weeks (v24)
– and we are told he dies AFTER the 62/same as AFTER 69WKS. in (v26)
for ii, and iii=…the prophecy does not give further information, its exact location in history is not foretold, except that was to happen after the arrival of the Messiah…(that is AFTER 62 WEEKS, same as AFTER 69 WEEKS)….
ONE FACT WE DO KNOW ….that tells us that there is not way that the abominator.desolator destroys the city during the 70 weeks, not even in the 70th one…..and is the fact that that destroyer brings punitive actions and these punitive actions cannot happen during the 70 weeks timeline because this was the period of probation of Israel..as the prophecy itself tells us…=
in fact …the prophecy when properly understood and correlated with history attest to that fact…
Dan 9:24 Seventy weeks are decreed as to your people, and as to your holy city, (A PERIOD OF PROBATION IS UNDERSTOOD)….
AS SUCH ii and iii, have to happen outside the period of mercy alloted to the Jewish nation for accepting or rejecting the New Covenant…which we know they did not accept the New Covenant (which is Christ as reconciling the women/church back to God, by finding pardon for their sinners)…
THE PROBATIONARY TIMELINE=
DECREE–>70WEEKS->END OF PROBATION
THE ABOMINATION.DESOLATION CITY AND TEMPLE…AFTER THIS PERIOD OF PROBATION=
OUTSIDE THE 70 WEEKS TIMELINE
DECREE/457BC 34ad/end.probation…..70ad(abom.des)
We see the sequence above….and history also tells us that the abomination desolation of the city and temple falls outside the time of probation which are those 70 weeks(490 years)…
logic itself confirms the same, that the abom.des. has to fall outside the period of probation alloted for the nation of Israel (which means outside the 70 weeks given as probationary time…yet soon after its end…and so it did)
Jesus dying in 31ad….and the abomination.desolation of city/temple happening in 70 ad…
tells us that a total of 40 years happened from the end of probation(unsuccesful end) to the jugments that folllowed in 70 ad…
what does the number 40 means in the Bible????
>>Another problem with the missionary interpretation of this passage is the fact that the passage speaks of two separate anointed ones. The first “anointed leader” is to come after seven weeks, with the second anointed to be cut off after sixty-two weeks.
That is not so…
so great a job is done solely by the Messiah Prince…
the problem is in that understanding of two messiahs…which in reality does not make sense..
why…so…the prophecy solely speaks of one Messiah Prince….and refers to him as the Messiah or the Prince…which after all is he is introduced by both, as such either can be used…
THE MESSIAH PRINCE….ARRIVES…
THE MESSIAH…………… = DIES/RATIFIES THE NEW COVENANT
AND HE(THE MESSIAH) ..=CONFIRMS THE NEW COVENANT,
AND HE (THE MESSIAH) = DIES/NULLIFIES THE OLD COVENANT…
since the Messiah is the same that dies, in so doing ratifying the New Covenant with His blood, there it is logical that the “He” that confirms the New Covenant is the same Messiah..and therefore this same “He” is told to cause the sacrifices and oblation(Old Covenant) to cease…
IT IS ALL DONE BY THE SAME PERSON…THE MESSIAH PRINCE, IS CALLED THE MESSIAH OR PRINCE…that makes sense…or as “HE”… either way there are common ties…
the arrival of the Messiah…and its following death, confirmation of the covenant and annulment of the Old Covenant, all these ties the Messiah Prince as one…as the prince and as the “he”
THE MESSIAH DOES NOT DESTROYS THE CITY AND TEMPLE…
IT IS THE PEOPLE OF THE PRINCE(THE MESSIAH) WHICH WAS TO COME WHO DESTROYS IT…WHO ARE THEY???
In fact in the Messiah Prince all this is found as summarized at the start of the prophecy=
Dan 9:24
Seventy weeks are decreed as to your people, and as to your holy city,
to finish the transgression,
and to make an end of sins,
and to make atonement(AT HIS DEATH) for iniquity,
and to bring in everlasting righteousness(BY HIS PARDON AND POWER),
and to seal up the vision and prophecy(HE FULFILLED IT),
and to anoint the Most Holy.(2ND TEMPLE BY HIS PRESENCE, HEAVENLY TEMPLE ALSO)
>>>The missionary interpretation ignores this clear implication of the verse, and provides no reason why the sixty-nine week period should be subdivided into seven and sixty-two.
I do not know about them…
but the historicist approach does…
which is that the 70 weeks, is a block of time, which has being “cut off” from the longer timeline of the 2,300 years discussed in Daniel 8, which addresses the Old Testament times to the times of Jesus, this as the times of Israel’s probation….
while the later time period of the 2300 years is the times of the gentiles…
These 70 weeks…are initiated by the decree of for the Babylonian restoration of Israel and its temple, and includes initially the restoration itself…and from there the timeline points to the Messiah to come, during the last week of this probationary time, in which He was to give in force the New Covenant, and ratify it in the midst of the last week….as such annulling the Old Covenant of sacrifices and oblations….It is all about the fulfillment of the promise given to your forefathers…
the culmination of your expectations….the everlasting covenant as ratified in Christ…
The OT sacrifices and oblation found their meaning in the promise and oath of the Messiah to come, and He dying brought about an new age….not like the Jews expected…
70 WEEKS = probationary time…
– 7weeks restoration takes place
– 62weeks bring us to the arrival of the MessiaH= A/27AD
– 70th week- the Messiah dying in the middle of the 70thwk…X/31AD=ratifies NC, nullifies OC
– and probationary time ending at the end of the 70 weeks…E=34AD
– ABOM.DESOLATION….follows swiftly…but outside the 70 weeks of probation…70ad…
>>>Furthermore, the missionary interpretation does not explain the main point of the passage. By inserting a space into the seventy weeks (either several decades or several thousand years), there is nothing special about these seventy weeks. They do not measure any particular time, nor do they accomplish anything unique.
Exactly!!! Totally non-logical….
That is the deception of Futurism and Preterism…and the whole world is falling for it…!!!!
>>>The missionary understanding of this passage can be compared to someone who tells his friend, “it is 50 miles from New York to Los Angeles.” When questioned by his friend about the accuracy of his statement, the fellow responds, “- well I’m sure you realize that there is a large gap between the forty-ninth and fiftieth miles.” In other words the original statement was meaningless.
Amen~~~~!!!!!
The fact is that that 70th week was allotted totally for the Messiah and his disciples to give in force the Everlasting Covenant for the Jews as the time of their probation’s ending approached…
That 70th and final week…was dedicated totally for the First Coming of the Messiah and what He was to accomplished in that week…7 years (He initially, and dying in the midst of that week, ratifying the New Covenant and annuling the Old Covenant, then his disciples continue sharing the New covenant solely for the Jews for another 3.5 years….And at the end of the 70 weeks, then the probation of Israel at the national level ended..(and they did not accepted the covenant)…yet God provided the New covenant, this time solely at the personal level to both original Jewish branches believers…and for us grafted gentiles…
>>>According to the Jewish commentators, the seventy weeks are contiguous.
Amen!!!
>>>They end with the destruction of the Temple and the sacking of Jerusalem.
No…there is no decree which at the end of the 70 weeks will bring you to 70 ad, the date of that destruction….
Truth be told….the end of the 70 weeks…using the last decree available to restore the city and temple(post babylonian restoration) is 457bc(finalizer)…and this only bring us to 34 AD….
The fact is that many ignore, that the destruction of the City and Temple, is told in the prophecy to take place any time after the arrival of the Messiah (any time after the 62 weeks)….
it so happens that history tells us that it happened close to 40 years after the death/31ad of the Messiah, several years after the end of the 70 weeks in 34ad…
which is logical…the judgments have to fall outside the end of the probationary time/outside the 70 weeks…therefore after 34ad… therefore 70ad…
>>The seventy weeks are divided into two periods, the first consisting of seven weeks, with the second consisting of sixty-two. The seventieth week is split between these two periods.
Now…you are really going off the track….
the sequence presented is (7wks.62wks.1wk)= 70weeks….
>>>…. The closing verse that speaks of the one week, refers to the last of the sixty-two weeks, and describes the events of that seven-year period.
7wks….then 62 weeks….then 1 week…..= end of the 70 weeks…
If one does what you say…one comes short a week…
notice this…the total time period is 70 weeks…
according to you=
we have 7 weeks
then 62 weeks (the 62th being the “1 week, as such included inside the 62 weeks)
this results = 7weeks + 62weeks = 69 weeks…
which means you end up missing 1 week…
The truth is that the 1 week is the 70th week…(not the 62th week as you say)
>>>>In order to understand the purpose of the seventy-week period, we must focus on the context of this passage and on the only other passage in scripture that uses the term of weeks to describe sets of seven years.
(actually the 2,300em. are 2300 prophetic days = 2300 literal years, and the 1260 prophetic days = 1260 literal years…so at the day.year level there are many examples)
>>>>The chapter opens with Daniel contemplating the prophecy of Jeremiah. The Temple was destroyed, the city of Jerusalem was in ruins, and Jeremiah had prophesied that after a seventy-year period Jerusalem would be restored. According to Daniel’s calculations Jeremiah’s seventy years had passed, and the city was still in ruins. Daniel prayed that God have compassion upon His people, and restore the city and the Temple.
what JEREMAIHA SAID=
FROM Babylonian Desolation to the restoration 70 years=
Bab/abom.desrestoration
>>In response to Daniel’s prayer God dispatches the angel Gabriel. The passage quoted above, was Gabriel’s response to the prayer of Daniel. Gabriel was telling Daniel that he had misunderstood two separate points. Firstly he had miscalculated the seventy years predicted by Jeremiah.
Now you are adding your words to the message….
where does is says so???
>>>This is the meaning of the phrase “you will know and understand from the going forth of the word to restore and rebuild Jerusalem.”
Now…you are stopping short, you have the starting point of the timeline but you lack its ending point….as such where are those 69weeks to take us?….Daniel says to the Messiah…..
what Daniel says is that from the decree to restore Jerusalem then 69 weeks later the Messiah was to arrive=
decree–+ 69wks–>(A) of the Messiah
457bc + 69wks(483yrs)->27ad/arrival Messiah
Dan 9:25
….. that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem
……UNTO the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks:(69WKS)
>>>In other words, Daniel had not understood when it is that the word to rebuild Jerusalem actually went forth, and now he should reevaluate his calculations. Daniel had assumed that the seventy years predicted by Jeremiah began with the first Babylonian invasion, in which the Jews lost their independence to Nebuchadnezzar. In reality he was to count from the third and final Babylonian invasion, when the city and Temple were actually destroyed.
Now I see that you have two different timelines confused….which are=
Jeremiah/’s timeline = Bab./abo.des–+70years—>restoration.city temple
but
Daniel’s timeline is different (he starts with the decree of restoration, which is the end of Jeremiahs timeline) and then goes forwards from there…
decree/restoration –+69weeks(483years)–>Messiah…
What Jeremiah calls the ending point of his timeline of 70 years…
Daniels call the starting point of his timeline of 70 weeks(490 years)….
temporaly speaking they are not the same…in fact one follows the other (divided by the time of the decrees from 539bc-457bc= as follows=
as such=
Bab/des/609?–70yrs/Jeremiah->539bc-457bce.o.p
Bab/des/609-DECREES–e.o.p.
e.o.p= end of probation
539-457bc= times of the 3 decrees= as the ending point of Jeremiah’s 70 yrs timeline..and then as starting point of Daniel’s timeline….
So if you look above…..those two timelines are not the same…
=
Jeremiah’s timeline bring us from the Babylonian/desolation to “the decrees”..
while
Daniel’s timeline bring us from “the decrees” to the times of the Messiah, ultimately the end of prob.
>>>Thus the angel tells him that the “word” (of God through Jeremiah) was related to the rebuilding of the city, therefore it was to begin with the destruction of the same.
????
no…what Daniel is told that although the city was already destroyed(by the babylonians) and although is was to be rebuilt yet ultimately its end was to be once again to be abominated and desolated….and the prove is right there in history…and so it did…in 70 ad…
As such the city and temple was to be re-destroyed soon after the end of the 70 weeks which ended in 34ad…(this re-abomination.desolation this time as done by the Romans taking place in 70ad)…
>>>>The second point that the angel clarified to Daniel, was that the rebuilding of the Temple was not going to be final; the Temple was going to be destroyed again.
Yes…that is right..
>>Daniel had been hoping that the prophecies of all the prophets were going to be fulfilled in their entirety, and God will come to dwell amongst His people as in the days of Moses and Solomon. This was not to be.
yet our Good Lord…had something better in store for the Israel of Faith…despite the disobedience of Israel the nation…
As such those prophecies were conditional…
yet even to those God found a solution…a solution to the sin problem….
>>>>Gabriel told Daniel, that his nation must undergo a purging process of seventy weeks, and only then can the sin begin to be expiated as well as the process of ushering in eternal righteousness.
Where Israel failed…his Messiah triumph…and his success became the success of Israel, the Israel of faith… It is the Messiah, the one that accomplished all those 6 points for Israel…
(notice despite their own doings which brought the destruction of their city and temple again…God has something better in store for them…)
>>>First the nation and the land must make expiation for the particular sin of neglecting the Sabbath of the land. It is for this reason that angel speaks of groups of seven years as “weeks.” This serves as a pointer to the passage in Leviticus in which we are told that the land must undergo a purging period for the expiation of this particular sin. Only after this process is complete, can the national purging process begin; the process that will refine the nation and bring them to the anointing of holy of holies, and everlasting righteousness – according to the visions of the prophets.
Actually…this is to extend to the whole creation…because the 7th day Sabbath was given at creation… it is the 7th Millennial Sabbath which is at the doors which will bring the sabbath rest to this world….We are at a few years to Sundown Friday 6th Millennium, at this point the Messiah Christ is to return…and takes us to heaven…to the house of His father where He went to prepare mansions and take the Bride with Him….and so it is very soon…
(just like the ancient Jewish weddings…the bethrothal the first coming…went back to make her a home…now comes to take his bride with Him to His father house…heaven)…..
>>>The two “anointed ones” that Gabriel makes reference to, are Cyrus – the Persian monarch, and the last high priest to serve in the Second Temple.
First there is only one Messiah Nagid which was to saved us…by getting rid of sin…and he is called in the vision, either Messiah or Nagid…and this is so because that is his title..one can be called by the first or second names or title…and still be the same person..
And yes..those are OT times….and by extending the timeline to the first century ad from the times of the Medopersian decrees(~500bc)….this tells us that you are speaking of 490 years as being the 70 weeks..which is correct….The problem I see is that your starting points and ending point are off a little….=
70 weeks timeline = 490 years
starting point= the final decree 457bc
end of the 70 weeks timeline= 34ad
abom.des/Romans=70 ad…outside the 70 weeks of probation(which ended in 34ad)..(which makes sense, during probation no judgments take place)
>>From the going forth of the word until Cyrus, whom Isaiah (45:1) had already identified as the anointed one who will restore the city, will be seven full weeks.
No….from the decree…to the Messiah…(you are assuming is Cyrus, but it is not)
So now I want to hear from you…
1)which is the date of the decree you say starts the 7weeks(49yrs)?
(you are failing to see that it is not just 7 weeks….it is in fact more 7wks.62weeks= 69wks..)
2) which is the ending point of the 7 weeks (49 yrs) and points to whom?
3) which is the starting point of the 62 weeks and its ending point points to whom???
4) are you keeping , the 7wks, 62wks and 1 wk ….as consecutive…
5) how is the end of the 70 weeks(490yrs) as it relates to 70ad.
>>>This will be followed by sixty-two weeks of the city being rebuilt, but in troubled times (not as Daniel had hoped.) After the sixty-two weeks the high priest would be cut off without any continuity and the city will be destroyed.
62 weeks= 434 years…for the restoration of your city and temple…..??? that is a long time…
who is the High Priest that is cut off…? and can he accomplished “atonement”…? and end of sin??
Please give us starting dates and ending dates for this timelines…
you have 62 weeks which ends in 70 ad…that means that you start your 62 weeks(434 years) in 364bc….why did you pick that date? Why are you separating the 7 weeks from the 62 weeks…?
because that is what you are doing…or something like that …
Cyrus/539bc…..to…. 70 ad/last.high priest ….that is more than 62 weeks(434 yrs) or even 70 weeks(490years)….your timelines do not add up….
a) 539bc + 7weeks(49 yrs)–> 490bc
b) then you jump from 490bc to 364bc…for what reason?…that is not a continuous timeline, seems to me you are contradicting what you said before about the missionaries….=
364bc + 62weeks(434 years)—> 70ad
In top of that…not key people or event takes place to mark some of those dates…
and a high priest cannot do what the prophecies says that the Messiah was to do….
>>>When Ezekiel prophecies about the restored high-priesthood in the Third Temple, he tells us that it will not be a continuation of the corrupt Sadducee high-priesthood. Rather, the priests who did not stray from God will serve in the Third Temple, and they will teach the people the Laws of God.
We are in a new paradym now…since Israel rejected the New covenant that the Messiah confirmed and since within this context things are not exactly the same that they could have been if Israel would have being faithful….nevertheless…
thanks to God. you will get your 3rd temple, but not exactly as you expect it…..it is in the New Jerusalem that descends from heaven to settle in the mount of Olives….coming here after the 7th millennial Sabbath which is at the door…in a few years….the second coming at its starts…sundown friday Millennium…
>>>According to the Jewish interpretation, Gabriel’s words are a direct answer to Daniel’s prayer. Daniel had assumed that with the completion of Jeremiah’s seventy years, all of the Messianic prophecies will come to fruition. The main point of Gabriel’s words are that seventy weeks of years were decreed upon Daniel’s people and upon his city, before the Messianic prophecies can begin to be fulfilled. The seventy-week period is the thrust of Gabriel’s message, as the passage clearly implies.
The question remains…..which were to be its starting and ending points…and who were to be the players…and do they satisfy the requirements of the vision….????
why are you separating the weeks…when they are a block of time…?
why do you have two Messiah….when there is only one The Messiah….the one that your people expected for so long…
why negate that the “7wks.62weeks.1week” are a continous time period…since after all that is the only way that they will add to a 70 weeks block of time…which is the prophetic timeline…!!!
why do you have players which some of the them cannot do what the prophecy requires?
why negate the simple implications
>>One final point about this prophecy; According to the missionary, the seventy weeks were not decreed “upon your people and upon your holy city.” The seventy weeks are particular components in time that have no direct bearing upon the Jewish people or Jerusalem.
Well they are changing the prophetic word….an error…
>>>In fact the entire Christian vision of the Messiah negates the people whom Daniel considered his own, as well as the city that Daniel considered holy.
Most of the Protestant have fallen for Futurism and Preterims ….a work of the counter reformation of the catholics….and they are doing a great work of deception… expecially about Daniel 8, 2300 years which is the parent timeline of the 70 weeks(this as the first part of that longer time period)…
>>An unbiased reading of the Jewish scriptures will reveal that the entire focus of the Messianic vision is upon the Jews whom Daniel considered his own, and upon the city that Daniel considered holy.
Certainly…and Daniel 9 dealing with OT times this is even more true…
but by the last week with the ratifying of the New Covenant..the gentiles were graft into the Israel of Faith…and as such partakers of the prophetic message for that period…and as it continuous…
So….up to a point…
There are many concepts that need to be clarify…because the prophecy is simple…
70 weeks of probationary time for Israel the nation…
starting point = the finalizing decree of 457BC that gives religious political powers once again to Jerusalem/Israel once again a nation under God…
The Messiah arriving at the end of the 69weeks(483 years) from the decree of 457b= 27ad/JESUS
the 70th week as the times of the Messiah…=27ad-34ad, confirming the New Covenant
the Messiah cut off in the midst of the 70th week…31ad
at which point He ratifies the Everlasting Covenant(New covenant)
and annuls the Old Covenant of sacrifices and oblations…
the end of the 70 weeks = as the end of probation…34ad…
Israel the nation rejects the New Covenant in Christ….
yet at the personal level many Jews accept it, and many gentiles believers are grafted in the Good Olive tree…into the Israel of faith…
and the abomination.desolation/70ad…outside the 70 weeks of mercy…but soon after it ends
as the foretold end of the 2nd temple…
the third temple in the Holy City, the New Jerusalem descends from heaven after the 7th Millennial Sabbath…the Millennium of rest……
from here….to infinity and beyond..!!!!!!!!
To infinity and beyond! Is that you Buzz Lightyear?
The vast majority of your post is just repetition and unnecessarily lengthy. There is no purpose in repeating the same thought over and over again.
Once again, I reiterate that it speaks of the anointed one being cut off and it also says he will cease to exist. If Daniel is speaking of Jsus then he is confirming that his death was an end in and of itself. But I notice you always “cut off” that part of the sentence, which is key. It is self-evident that the Priesthood has ceased to exist, Since there is no more Temple. Therefore the rest of your post has no meaning or significance .
Maybe you need clarification here:
why do you have two Messiah….when there is only one The Messiah….the one that your people expected for so long…
There have been many many “Messiah” as recorded in Tanach.
https://yourphariseefriend.wordpress.com/2015/05/03/daniel-9-an-open-letter-to-bru-ram/
No Larry, Bru is the only one who knows anything about G-d, didn’t you get the memo? He’s a religion of one.
Bru is a woman.
Oh, ok then. Bru, I sincerely apologize for the mistake.
Apologies accepted…Concerned Reader…
Sharbano..you wrote >>>>>The vast majority of your post is just repetition and unnecessarily lengthy. There is no purpose in repeating the same thought over and over again.
Repetition is a method of teaching and learning… Yet my purpose is the following, since I got languages problems(which by now I know you all have noticed!!!), yet I repeat the ideas in order facilitate your being able to understand what I said….
>>Once again, I reiterate that it speaks of the anointed one being cut off and it also says he will cease to exist.
“THE Messiah”…the one and only that your people have being expecting for centuries now…
is told to be cut off…not only in Daniel 9 but also in Isaiah 53, since it is speaking of the same person…..nobody is denying that fact….truth be told it is His death, his blood, by which He ratifies the New Covenant (The Everlasting Covenant of the “seed” that was to come and save us)…it is because of this that in so doing He nullified the Old Covenant of Sacrifices and Oblations …as such no longer binding.
I
Yet you are in error in saying that the Messiah will cease to exist….because the prophecy in Daniel 9 although admitting that He was to die, yet nowhere says that He was not to resurrect. In fact, the opposite is true…which is that the Messiah although dying in the midst of the week, He is shown confirming His covenant during the whole week (70th week)…so His death in the midst of the 70th week, does not affects His mission through the whole week (certainly the later half as done by His disciples and He in heaven officiating)….which in fact is telling us that His death and resurrection are evident. Not only that the same Messiah is presented in Isaiah 53(there called the suffering servant)….and there the same thing is told…that this suffering servant was to die (cut off..the exact same words are used)…yet He was going to see the results of His travail ….
A)
MESSIAH DIES IN THE MIDST OF THE 70th week AS PER DAN. 9:24 AND 26
Dan 9:26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself:
(His dying/atonement/reconciliation during the 70 weeks/v24….but AFTER THE 69 WEEKS, which means that He was to die in the midst of the 70th week/v26)
B)
YET HE IS ALSO SHOWN ALIVE THROUGH THE WHOLE WEEK(WHOLE 7 YEARS), WHICH SPEAKS OF HIS RESURRECTION IN THE MIDST OF THAT SAME 70TH WEEK, 31AD)
Dan 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: (27AD-34AD)
RESULT=
A+ B= THE MESSIAH IS ALIVE….THAT IS WHY THE TOMB WAS EMPTY!!!
II
ISAIAH CONFIRMS THE FACT THAT THE SUFFERING SERVANT (ATONING SERVANT, THE MESSIAH), ALTHOUGH “CUT OFF” YET IS TO RESURRECT AND SEE THE TRAVAIL OF HIS SUFFERING…
Isa 53:8….for the transgression of my people was he stricken.
Isa 53:9 And he made his grave with the wicked, ….
Isa 53:10 … shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand. (DYING YET HIS DAYS ARE PROLONG…???)
Isa 53:11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied:
by his knowledge ***shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities/ATONEMENT)***
HIS FUTURE…IS GREAT….DESPITE HAVING DIED…(SIMPLY BECAUSE HE WAS RESURRECTED)=
Isa 53:12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.
JESUS IS ALIVE….AND HE IS OFFERING YOU ETERNAL LIFE…
FORGET ABOUT THE PAST…WE ALL HAVE MADE MISTAKE…
GET READY BECAUSE HE IS AT THE DOOR….THE 7TH MILLENNIAL SABBATH IS AT THE DOOR…JESUS RETURNS AT THE SUNDOWN OF THE MILLENNIAL SABBATH….SO THAT WE HIS CHURCH MAY EXPEND THIS 7TH MILLENNIAL SABBATH IN REAL REST…IN A HEAVEN REST….IT IS ALL UP TO YOU!!!
>>If Daniel is speaking of Jsus then he is confirming that his death was an end in and of itself.
THANKS GOD THAT WAS NOT LIKE THAT …AS I SHOWED YOU ABOVE…
OTHERWISE WE WOULD HAVE BEING DOOM…..
THANKS GOD, THAT THE MESSIAH CAME AND CONQUERED DEATH …SO THAT WE MAY HAVE ETERNAL LIFE…
>>>But I notice you always “cut off” that part of the sentence, which is key. It is self-evident that the Priesthood has ceased to exist, Since there is no more Temple. Therefore the rest of your post has no meaning or significance .
I did not cut off …any thing….
It is you who paraphrased everything… I do not see you quoting a single verse…
If you are referring to ….Dan 9:26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, “but not for himself:”…..
but not for himself” does not mean that He was not be resurrected…
But not for himself – Margin, “and shall have nothing.” ….that speaks his status at his death….that does not say whether or not He was resurrected..
Well…God bless…
Hope that clarifies the issues…
again, there is only one ATONING MESSIAH
He was to arrive 7wks.62wks(69weeks/483 years) from the finalizing decree of 457bc/that is 27ad.
He was to confirm the New Covenant(Everlasting C.), that is give it in force during a week(7yrs)
He was to ratify, with His blood, the New Covenant in the midst of that 70th week/31ad
He was to stop the Old Covenant of Sacrifices/Oblation at his death in the midst of that week/31ad
He was to end the probation of His people/Israel and City at the end of the 70 weeks/70 ad
His people/Israel the nation, rejected the New Covenant He offered and the Old Covenant ended..
He then opened the New Covenant to all, believer Jews and believer Gentiles/at the personal level
All that accept the New Covenant is now solely at the personal level.
soon after the foretold predicted destruction of their city and temple by the abomination.desolation took place, 70 ad …40 years after the death of the Messiah …in 31 ad..( a few less years when counting from the end of probation in 34ad)….
Only one ATONING MESSIAH….WHICH IS THE SUFFERING SERVANT…YET TO RETURN AS OUR LORD AND KING!!
May all of us be ready….!!!
Hope to one day soon celebrate the 7th Millennial Sabbath in heaven, will all of you!!!
CORRECTION OF THE ABOVE…
HE WAS TO END THE PROBATION OF HIS NATION AT THE END OF THE 70 WEEKS IN ***34 AD*** (NOT 70 AD AS i SAID ABOVE)..
IT IS THE ABOMINATION.DESOLATION THE ONE THAT WAS TO TAKE PLACE SHORTLY AFTER AND DID HAPPENED IN 70 AD….
(hope I could corrected above…but do not know how…)
You said;
(Yet you are in error in saying that the Messiah will cease to exist….because the prophecy in Daniel 9 although admitting that He was to die, yet nowhere says that He was not to resurrect.)
The same wording used there in Daniel is also used in Jeremiah 50:32. There is says none will raise him up. It should be noted that if it were Daniel’s intention to refer to a Xtian type messiah and his death and resurrection he certainly would have left that phrase out. But he had reason to Include it, and so negating the Xtian narrative.
It is interesting that everything Xtianity has used to further their narrative there seems always to be something that sheds light that disproves the narrative.
Please quote where it says so….
as far as I read there is no statement that negates the resurrection of the Messiah…
The suffering servant after being cut off, is told that he was to rejoice in his accomplishments…this happening after His resurrection as implied…
and
Daniel’s prophecy shows the Messiah confirming the covenant during the later part of the 70th week, despite having died in the middle of it…this also implies its existence after his death…(which is after His resurrection by definition)…But even if this was not present in the prophecy…its absence cannot be used to judged the isssue. The fact is that no where it says that the Messiah was not to resurrect ….
It doesn’t reference a messiah in the 70th week. It Only says a prince. That second messiah,after the 62 weeks has already been cut off and exists no more. The prince is one who desolates Jerusalem, as it says, he shall come to destroy the city and sanctuary.
Ok….you wrote=
>>>It doesn’t reference a messiah in the 70th week. It Only says a prince. That second messiah,after the 62 weeks has already been cut off and exists no more.
What you say above does not make sense… because the Messiah dying after 62 weeks, is actually dying in the next week which is the 70th week…therefore
Yes it does speaks of the Messiah in the 70th week…
keep in mind this verse=
Dan 9:26 And AFTER threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself:
sequence within the 70 weeks=
7wks.62wks.1wk = 70weeks
7wks–)62wks–)70th week= 70weeks
7wks->62wks->–X/70th->70weeks
Look above…since the Messiah dies after 62 weeks….then in which week is the Messiah dying? ….after 62 weeks means during the next week 70th week(given his short ministry)….
Dying in the middle of the 70th week, means that the Messiah is actually in action during the first half of the 70th week…
even more the Messiah confirming the New Covenant during that week(70th week) further supports the fact that He resurrects, and continues offering the New Covenant to His people during the later half of that same 70th week..
So reviewing….(assuming your two Messiahs…)
First Messiah at 7 weeks (according to you which I think this is wrong…)
Second Messiah at the end of 62 weeks He arrives…
And He is to die after 62 weeks…
So when is the Messiah dying?
After 62 weeks…means solely during the 70th week (given its death/atonment in the midst of this week)
I will not put the arrows because these formats removes them…but look at the following sequence as moving forwards in time=
7weeks–62weeeks–1week/70th = end of 70 weeks..
The Messiah dying AFTER the 62 weeks, MEANS that He dies in the next week, which is the 70th……AND look the Messiah dying AFTER THE 62 WEEKS….which means dying within the 70th week
7weeks–62weeeks–1week/70th = end of 70 weeks..
Dan 9:26 And after threescore and two weeks(62 weeks) shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself:
The truth is that there is only one Messiah, which was to arrive at the end of the 62 weeks(when counting from the end/Y of the initial 7 weeks),
which is the same as saying that the Messiah was to arrive at the end of the 7wks.62wks(69weeks) when counting from the decree/beginning point of the 7 weeks(the decree D below)…
D)–7weeks–(Y)–62weeks–(A)Messiah arrives…
D)–7weeks–(Y)–62weeks–(A)Messiah arrives…Messiah diesX/70th)
from D to A= 69weeks
from Y to A= 62 weeks
arrival of the Messiah = end of the 62 weeks
ministry of the Messiah= confirming/70th week
death of the Messiah= dying in the midst of the 70th week(+NC, -OC)
you wrote
>>>The prince is one who desolates Jerusalem, as it says, he shall come to destroy the city and sanctuary.
There you go changing the Word of God…why?
the verse does not say that “He” shall come to destroy the city and sanctuary….
what it says is that The People of the Prince was to destroy it…
Dan. 9:26=…and THE PEOPLE OF THE PRINCE THAT SHALL COME shall destroy the city and the sanctuary;
So who is the “subject” of that sentence who does the action of destroying the city and sanctuary?
answer= the People of the Prince that shall come…..
The People of the Prince….are who?….
Who is the People of the Messiah Nagid…?
Who is the People of the Nagid?
answer= Israel is the People of the Prince that shall come…
truth be told, it does not say that the Prince is involve in the destruction of that city and temple one way or another. We know that the Messiah Prince is not going to destroy the city and temple….something that the People of the Prince did brought about such destruction…so what it was?
Lets see, does history helps us…
The Romans destroy it in 70ad…so to the minimus they are the accomplices (if not totally responsible)….
..but the question remains…=
Are the Romans the People of the Prince to Come…
are the Romans the People of the Messiah that was to come…
answer= no
Did the Jews(the People of the Nagid Prince to to come) brought unto themselves the rage of the Romans?
did they rebelled against the Roman?
if they did…wouldn’t you say that their actions one way or another brought upon themselves the destruction of their own temple…
What about their rejection of the Messiah/Suffering.Servant as foretold?
Seems to me that there are many problems in your understanding of that prophetic message of Dan.9…
The Messiah Prince, in the original “the Messiah Nagid”, is only one…
In the prophecy He is also called “the Messiah” or the “Nagid”, or alluded by the pronoun “He”…all these ways alluding the same Messiah TO COME…the same Prince TO COME..
It is a great error to introduce two Messiah to come…even your forefathers have being waiting for just one that was to come…
THEREFORE…
THE END OF THE 62 WEEKS (SAME AS 7wks.62wks.) bring us to the ARRIVAL OF THE MESSIAH.PRINCE = which means the beginning of the 70th week…
THE “AFTER 62 WEEKS” bring us to the DEATH OF THE MESSIAH PRINCE= which means within the 70th week (taking in consideration that the prophecy also says that He was to die/atone during the 70 weeks, as such within the 70wks but after the 69 weeks means solely within the 70th week or last week)…
Not only there is just one Messiah to come…the Desire of Nations, that tittle by itself tells us that there is only one Desire of Nations…
But also the time sequence 7wks.62wks…= is the one that bring us to the arrival of that single Messiah at the end of the 62wks(same as 7wks.62wks, all depending from where one is counting)….
so that He may die = “AFTER THE 62 WEEKS”
COMING AT THE END OF THE 62WEEKS, THEN HE DIES AFTER THE 62WEEKS…
THE SEQUENCE = 7WEEKS.62WEEKS.1WEEK = 70 WEEKS PROBATION
ANOTHER POINT….THE MESSIAH NAGID, IS ALSO THE MESSIAH AND IT IS ALSO THE PRINCE….WHY THEN SAY SOMEBODY ELSE IS ALLUDED???
PS…
Even if we forget of whom or what happens at “the end of the 7 weeks”(Y)…. as you say ..
You still have to deal with your 2nd Messiah and what He was to do=
which is= your second Messiah does all these(at A, AFTER A, AND DURING 70TH WEEK)=
TIMELINE=
D)–7weeks–(Y)–62weeks–(A)-X/70th->end 70weeks….
Dan 9:26-27
And after threescore and two weeks(DURING THE 70TH WEEK, SEE ABOVE) =
-shall Messiah be cut off(DIES), but not for himself: …
-And he(YOUR 2ND MESSIAH) shall confirm the (NEW) covenant with many for one week(70thweek):
-and in the midst of the week(70TH WEEK) he shall cause “the sacrifice and the oblation”(OLD COVENANT) to cease,”
-and for the overspreading of abominations …….(properly someone else) shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate. (THIS LAST VERSE SAYS THAT ABOMINATIONS WILL BE FOLLOWED SWIFTLY BY DESOLATONS, AND THIS DESOLATOR IS TO BE DESOLATED ALSO)
Just following your line of thought….the 2nd Messiah accomplished much during that 70th week, which given the fact that the decree of 457bc is known, this 70th week, is the week from 27ad to 34ad….(If you used the other decrees of 539bc or 519bc to calculate the 70th week will fall very far from the abom.desolation/70ad (which was soon to follow the 2nd Messiah, this will be to far to fulfill the requirements of the prophecy, which says that they come close, the Messiah comes first, and shortly after his death ..the abomination desolation takes place..)
“and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.”
THE ABOMINATION DESOLATION…THE ANTECEDENT “HE” IS NOT IN THE ORIGINAL WRITINGS…WHICH MEANS THIS ABOMINATION DESOLATION IS NOT DONE BY YOUR “SECOND” MESSIAH..(THE PROPHECY MENTIONS TWO GUILTY PARTIES, THE PEOPLE OF THE PRINCE TO COME…AND THE DESOLATOR/ROMANS)
This is what “Your” bible may say but it certainly is not accurate
(Dan 9:26 And after threescore and two weeks(62 weeks) shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: )
What does that even mean, “but not for himself”. The Hebrew there (ואין לו ) is the same used in Jeremiah, and THERE it says, according to Your KJV “32 And the most proud shall stumble and fall, and none shall raise him up:” If it is the same Hebrew why in Daniel does it NOT say, “And none shall raise him up”. It looks like the translator was wanting it to say something it does not and the same reason the KJV uses the Hebrew version “Messiah” when in every other place they use “anointed”. You WILL have to admit there is something going on here.
Yes, it does say the people of the Prince. Do you think a king alone can wreak destruction on the Temple And Jerusalem by himself. He is the leader who brings that destruction. As it goes on to say, “He will forge a covenant for half a week and abolish sacrifices. A person has to use a little reasoning and understand what is being read.
( Israel is the People of the Prince that shall come…
truth be told, it does not say that the Prince is involve in the destruction of that city and temple one way or another. We know that the Messiah Prince is not going to destroy the city and temple….something that the People of the Prince did brought about such destruction…so what it was?)
WHAT?? Are you saying it was Israel who destroyed the Temple. Do you think Messiah is this Prince. That is totally absurd. Just look at history and we can determine who that person is. These few verses are NOT really difficult to understand. They are quite straight forward. Surely you realize it was Rome that sacked Jerusalem, the people of Rome, under the leader (prince) of Rome.
As I said before, you need to get a Real bible because the one you are using is distorting what is actually written.
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Sharbano says: May 4, 2015 at 4:52 pm
>>>This is what “Your” bible may say but it certainly is not accurate
Friend, you are using any excuse to not addressed the timeline I shared with you…
truth be told, I was not using what my Bible says…but instead I was addressing Daniel 9 using the information that you yourself provided from your Bible…and studying your explanation that there were 2 Messiahs..and so forth…
I was simply showing you…that according to the same Daniel 9 that you have…
the timeline sequence of weeks goes as follows = 7wks,62weeks,1week= and all together these weeks represent and add up to the 70weeks. That sequence is logical simply because it is the one presented in your own Bible, which is 7wks, then 62wks and finally 1wk. The fact that all these weeks together add up to 70 weeks, tells us that none of these 70 weeks overlap and that there is no gap between them…
7weeks.62weeks.1week= 70 weeks..
So please, perhaps you can paste here what your Bible, (that your translated scriptures to English for those English speaking Jews that do not know Hebrew)…this will help to further see to what you are referring to…. but please use an accurate translation, not a paraphrasing translation….
And please, and when referring to your Bible and accepted history…
could you please tell me…according to you…which is the date of “THE WORD” that went forward for the restoration of Jerusalem and temple (certainly given by a King, since no other people could give such order..or word…or commandment…same as decree)… Since we know the MedoPersian were the ones that accomplished such fete, then we need to find out the date of those “WORDS” so that we can use them as the proper starting point for the prophetic timeline)/….
>>(Dan 9:26 And after threescore and two weeks(62 weeks) shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: )
Just reviewing…
7weeks..62weeks..1week= 70 weeks..
We need to be clear, that within the context of a continuous timeline of 70 weeks (subdivided into those consecutive time periods), it then becomes evident that **AFTER 62 WEEKS” actually means within the next week/70thweek (since the Messiah’s mission is a short one, and the prophecy itself says that He was to die/atone within the 70 weeks/v.24
>>>What does that even mean, “but not for himself”. The Hebrew there (ואין לו ) is the same used in Jeremiah, and THERE it says, according to Your KJV “32 And the most proud shall stumble and fall, and none shall raise him up:” If it is the same Hebrew why in Daniel does it NOT say, “And none shall raise him up”.
Please quote chapter and verse …you do no help by sending me to the whole book of Jeremiah…
I did say that Daniel 9 translation does not address the issue of resurrection of the Messiah openly, we can come to that understanding because it says that the Messiah=
a) dies/atones within the 70 weeks/v24),
b) but after the 62weeks/v.26(same as after 69 weeks, when adding the initial 7 weeks)=
a+b= which solely means that the Messiah dies/atones within the 70th week)….
So we have the Messiah dying in a day, in the middle of that 70th week(7 years period),
yet he is also to confirm(give forcebly) the New Covenant during the whole week(7 years)….
which means…that He has resurrected in order to die one day…and yet been seen at work the whole week….
7weeks.62weeks.1week= 70 weeks..
If you are right that it says “and none shall raise him up”….
then one would need to understand to which event is this phrase referring to, is it referring as to the circumstancesduring His death, meaning that nobody was with Him in his death….
or it is speaking of His lack of resurrection as YOU SAY….which certainly as you say could be…
but when understood within the context of all the information given, likely that is not the case……
yet the question remains…in your Hebrew how is it presented?
Unfortunately I do not know Hebrew…so I cannot evaluate the shades of the meaning of that statement….
but I do know one thing….when somebody dies in a single day of a 7 years period, and yet He is shown in the prophecy alive thorough the whole week…that speaks solely of resurrection…
(because the dead do not exist…despite what many say….and you Jewish people know that, at least the OT teachings as our NT show that, excusing sureal visions, or parables…)..
THE SAME CONCEPT of resurrection is seeing in the other presentation of the Messiah as the Suffering Servant, as told in Isaiah 53, where He is foretold to be “cuff off” as well…yet He is also shown later on rejoicing of his labor and his people….which again solely speaks of the resurrection of this suffering servant….(since dead people do not exist, the body goes to dust and the breath of life returns to God who gave it to start with)….
and despite what people might say…
the MESSIAH NAGID = THE SUFERRING SERVANT…
>>It looks like the translator was wanting it to say something it does not and the same reason the KJV uses the Hebrew version “Messiah” when in every other place they use “anointed”. You WILL have to admit there is something going on here.
Now…let’s get real here…what sin is there in using a term as written in your own Hebrew original(Meshiach), which simply means anointed. Why would you negate the English speaking people from accepting your term Messiah, with all the implications and actions as the prophecy itself documents. To tell you the truth, it is not the first time that a particular language adopts a term from another language and makes it its own, together with its implications…
Now perhaps our translators did saw something which truth be told your own people have seen many centuries earlier…which is that the prophetic message of Daniel 9 speaks of “The Messiah”, lets call it…the ultimate Anointed one….and this is evident in what was foretold accordingly about this The Anointed”…The Messiah…and its ultimate atonement.(as per verse 24) there described, and His bringing of EVERLASTING RIGHTEOUSSNESS, HE certainly deserves to keep His title, even when translated into English as such making of “The Messiah” a key member of the English languague…. the English Bible….
>>>>Yes, it does say the people of the Prince. Do you think a king alone can wreak destruction on the Temple And Jerusalem by himself.
Agreed it does say The People of the Prince….
The issue is that it only says “the People of the Prince” destroys the CITY and temple….
and certainly does not say one way or another about the Prince….
and the fact remains…
that it **is not the usual way** that one refers to an invading Prince…usually he is called into account as representing His people….as such=
eg…
Claudius Cesar invaded England when in fact were his troops, I don’t think he was even around.
or Nero destroyed Rome, when in fact was the people that he send…
but in this case the Prince in question, in Dan. 9, is not told of Him taking part in the destruction of His City of Jerusalem…only says His people destroyed the city and temple… Why then blame Him?
Anyway the prophecy does not shows the Prince(that was to come and was to die) as having to do with the destruction of the city or temple…
..>>>He is the leader who brings that destruction. As it goes on to say, “He will forge a covenant for half a week and abolish sacrifices. A person has to use a little reasoning and understand what is being read.
It is you which is adding to the prophecy…the prophecy does not say….and neither can we….
The Messiah Prince is not shown destroying the city and temple…
Yet the Messiah Prince is shown confirming the New Covenant and ending the Old Covenant, this is speaking of annuling the old covenant, as such those sacrifices and oblation as meaningless…
and this is evident because during the 70th week He was around, the temple continue in action for another 40 years which was when the roman armies destroy it…(after the Jewish rebellion took place)…so the prophecy sees a dual culpability….
The “He” that confirms the Covenant, its antecedent is your Messiah, as can be seeing below,
he was the Messiah which was to die in the midst of the 70th week (as such still within the time of probation ….he has nothing to do with the abomination desolation which comes outside this probationary period of 70 weeks)
SO FOLLOW THE ANTECEDENT below…and find out who confirms the covenant=
IN VERSE 26 THERE ARE ONLY TWO SUBJECTS,
1) THE MESSIAH
2) AND THE PEOPLE OF THE NAGID THAT WAS TO COME
Dan 9:26
And after threescore and two weeks (62 WEEKS)
1) shall ***Messiah*** be cut off, but not for himself:
2) and ***the people of the prince that shall come*** shall destroy the city and the sanctuary;
and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
B)
THE SUBJECT IN THE NEXT VERSE/27 IS THE ANTECEDENT”THE MESSIAH” OF VERSE 26.
THE “”HE”” ARE NOT IN THE ORIGINAL SO I WILL ELIMINATE IT THEM BY PLACING THIS (……) INSTEAD AND SHOW WHAT IT ACTUALLY SAYS….
SPEAKING OF THE MESSIAH OF VERSE 26, QUOTED ABOVE=
Dan 9:27a
And ……(THE MESSIAH) shall confirm the covenant with many for one week:
and in the midst of the week …..(THE MESSIAH) shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease,
SPEAKING OF THE ABOMINATIONS AS FOLLOWED SWIFTLY BY DESOLATIONS UNTIL ITS END, THE DESOLATOR(ANOTHER ENTITY/ROME) WILL RECEIVED ITS DUES…
Dan. 9:27b and for the overspreading of abominations……. shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
NOTE=
above we are shown that the Messiah was the one that was to die,
and also was to confirm the New Covenant,
and was to cause the Old Covenant of sacrifices and oblations to cease(END)
The antecedent IN verse 27 first part corresponds to is the Messiah,….
The second part of verse 27 speaks of the abominations and desolations that were to come,
and refers to the desolater/Romans..
I HAD WRITTEN=… We know that the Messiah Prince is not going to destroy the city and temple….
something that the People of the Prince did brought about such destruction…so what it was?
>>>WHAT?? Are you saying it was Israel who destroyed the Temple.
You know…if there is somebody that will like to erase that from the prophecy is me…
but unfortunately that is what it is said there….I can do nothing about it..
IT is not me…is the prophecy…
likely the Jewish(the People of the Prince to come) with their rebellions brought about the vengeance of the Romans, and indirectly this did happened…as far as history shows….
But certainly it was the Romans who desolated the city and temple..in 70ad…
>>>Do you think Messiah is this Prince. That is totally absurd. Just look at history and we can determine who that person is. These few verses are NOT really difficult to understand. They are quite straight forward. Surely you realize it was Rome that sacked Jerusalem, the people of Rome, under the leader (prince) of Rome.
You are right the Roman’s were the ones that destroy the city and temple, and they are addressed in the prophecy as the abomnator.desolator….(even they themselves were going to reap what the sowed)…
But the truth is that the prophecy does blames the People of the Prince Nagid) to come…which is the People of the Messiah Prince(Nagid) which is to come…
The problem I see is that you and others do not follow what the initial verse has established…
which is that the Messiah is also the Nagid (the Prince) that was to come….
so once the prophecy establish this identification….why loose sense of it?
The Messiah Nagid, is the same person which is also called by either of those titles,
call the Messiah or the Nagid …(why introduced a second or third person when the Messiah Nagid is from the start established as one?)…
Keep the idea behind this Messiah Nagid….which was that He “was to come”…
(the foretelling of His coming….is important in knowing who is the Messiah Nagid, Messiah or Nagid…all the same person is alluded)…
THE MESSIAH PRINCE….WAS TO COME….THE PROMISE AT THE HEART OF IT ALL…
A(
Dan 9:25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem UNTO the Messiah the Prince
B)
HIS PEOPLE …is known as the People of the Prince that was to come…
“and the people of the prince that shall come”
c)
THIS SAME MESSIAH NAGID/PRINCE THAT WAS TO COME …is told…to…=
confirm the New Covenant and end the Old Covenant of sacrifices and oblations..
Dan 9:27
And he shall confirm the (NEW covenant) with many for one week:
and in the midst of the week he shall cause “the sacrifice and the oblation”(OLD COVENANT) to cease,
THE CAUSE PROBLEM OF IDENTIFICATION ROOTED….IN
1) THE MESSIAH NAGID, CONFIRMS THE NEW COVENANT,
HIS ENDING OF THE SACRIFICES AND OBLATIONS, SPEAKS OF STOPPING THE SPIRITUAL VALUE OF THEM…
2) BUT THE REAL PHYSICAL DESTRUCTION OF THE CITY AND TEMPLE FOLLOWED
THIS CAUSED BY THE JEWS REBELLIONS, AND THE ROMANS AS THE DESOLATOR OF THE PROPHECY….
>>>>As I said before, you need to get a Real bible because the one you are using is distorting what is actually written.
You know…you demand from me a real bible…but I do not see you quoting any verse from your own scriptures…just what comes from your mind…Please, bring to the conversation accurate Jewish translations into English…not paraphrasing…something that you trust as accurate to the Hebrew word….and lets see where that get us…
You also know of the timelines presented in the prophecies, and the starting and ending points there mentioned….but you do not bring any of those ending or starting points….to see if the Word confirms them as accurate… I being trying to guess which are the dates you used by what you say…
but…coming from you….no details of those timelines come forth…
amazing…you asking me to bring a “real Bible’…and I did brought you the best in English the KJV, which is the best…that I have accessible….If I new Hebrew I will present your bible here…
but I do not know…so I I try to see what a Hebrew concordance says…
That is what I have…
You having so much….why don’t you use it yourself???
The more I study these prophecies with you…
the more apparent is the error in having two Messiah’s to come….while the prophetic message referring to the Messiah to come….He is only one… “The Messiah”…the anointing Messiah…
Your people through the ages have being waiting for only one….and they did know Hebrew…
If your Messiah is also told to be a Nagid… then why fragment the understanding of the scripture, when whether Messiah Nagid, or Messiah or Nagid…is speaking of a single person…
Ok….I am Bru.the Couselor.teacher to come……
why is so hard to understand than when speaking of the…
the Counselor.teacher to come…
or the Couselor to come…
or the teacher to come….
speaking of He in THE SAME VISION…
WHY THEN THINK OF ANOTHER PERSON?
WHERE IS THE LOGIC THERE…
OUT THE DOOR…!!! especially when refering to IT…..all are COMING….
THERE IS ONLY ONE MESSIAH NAGID/PRINCE TO COME IN DANIEL 9
THERE IS ONLY ONE PRINCE IN DANIEL 9
THERE IS ONLY ONE MESSIAH IN DANIEL 9
THE PEOPLE OF THE PRINCE TO COME = ARE THE PEOPLE OF THE MESSIAH PRINCE/NAGID.
THE ROMANS ARE SHOWN AS THE ABOMINATORS.DESOLATORS…A GENERAL TERM… A THIRD PARTY..
I’ll try and explain it This way. As you say we have 7 weeks, we have 62 weeks, we have 1 week.
Now, it starts from the count of each to the end of each. In other words we start and have 7 weeks. Period. Next, we start and have 62 weeks. Next we start and have 1 week. Each part is a beginning and an ending.
Therefore, from the “Word to return until an anointed prince is that 7 weeks. We started From the Word until that anointed prince and it took 7 weeks. This is where Cyrus comes into play.
Next we start again at the end of the 7 weeks and now count for 62 weeks. For those 62 weeks the Temple will be built starting from the Persians through the Greeks and through the Romans. During all those Kingdoms there are plenty of difficulties in construction.
Then, after the 62 weeks (as it is written) the anointed One will be cut off. Here it doesn’t say the anointed prince, just an anointed one. He is cut off and will exist no longer.
Then we have the “people of the prince”. There is no mention of an anointed One or an anointed prince, just the people OF a prince. Those people of That prince come to destroy the Sanctuary and the city. We DO know this was Titus. But HIS ( the prince) end will be swept away as in a flood.
Then, until the end of the war, desolation is decreed. This is the first mention of a decree. During this time, The final week, 27) “He will forge a strong covenant with the great ones for one septet (week) but for half of that septet he will abolish sacrifice and meal offering, and the mute abominations will be upon soaring heights, until extermination as decreed will pour down upon the mute abomination.”
I realize you don’t understand Hebrew but Any concordance will do you no good. Even a dictionary wouldn’t be of that much assistance, simply because one has to understand sentence structure, grammar etc.
As far as timelines, the Rabbi already went through that.
{>>>What does that even mean, “but not for himself”. The Hebrew there (ואין לו ) is the same used in Jeremiah, and THERE it says, according to Your KJV “32 And the most proud shall stumble and fall, and none shall raise him up:” If it is the same Hebrew why in Daniel does it NOT say, “And none shall raise him up”.
Please quote chapter and verse …you do no help by sending me to the whole book of Jeremiah…}
I had already stated chapter and verse previously and reiterated the same. It is Jeremiah 50:32. In the Hebrew it is the same in Jeremiah as in Daniel. The KJV says in Daniel, “but not for himself”, but in Jeremiah it says, “none shall raise him up.” This is why the KJV has definite issues. One clear example of the KJV and its misunderstanding of Hebrew is Exodus 3:14.
You’ll have to admit your reasoning for understanding Daniel, and no doubt many other Hebrew scriptures, is you are looking to apply a messianic interpretation. So long as that is what you WANT it to be it will be impossible to grasp what the author’s intention was.
{Now…let’s get real here…what sin is there in using a term as written in your own Hebrew original(Meshiach), which simply means anointed. Why would you negate the English speaking people from accepting your term Messiah, with all the implications and actions as the prophecy itself documents. To tell you the truth, it is not the first time that a particular language adopts a term from another language and makes it its own, together with its implications… }
You apparently didn’t understand my point, which IS, the KJV uses the term Messiah, here, in Daniel, but doesn’t use it anywhere else in the entire Bible. That SHOULD cause a person to wonder WHY. Cyrus is called G-d’s Mashiach. So why didn’t the KJV use it there. Simply because they didn’t want Xtians to know that the anointed one IS Cyrus. It destroys their narrative.
I want to into Isaiah 53 at this time since it has been covered extensively. Needless to say the Xtian text has distorted that also. There, the suffering servant is Israel. To understand THAT narrative one has to being at 52:1 through 53 AND 54. Taking that in its entirety it Should be much clearer.
{but in this case the Prince in question, in Dan. 9, is not told of Him taking part in the destruction of His City of Jerusalem…only says His people destroyed the city and temple… Why then blame Him?}
That’s because he is referred to in 27. HE is the one who allowed the Jews to resume Temple offerings, for a little while anyway. This is well known.
{SPEAKING OF THE MESSIAH OF VERSE 26, QUOTED ABOVE=
Dan 9:27a
And ……(THE MESSIAH) shall confirm the covenant with many for one week:
and in the midst of the week …..(THE MESSIAH) shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease,}
THIS doesn’t even make any sense. Are You saying Jsus was alive during the destruction of the Temple. You seem to be contradicting yourself. Here you say Israel destroyed the Temple.
{>>>WHAT?? Are you saying it was Israel who destroyed the Temple.
You know…if there is somebody that will like to erase that from the prophecy is me…
but unfortunately that is what it is said there….I can do nothing about it..}
Then Here you say it was Rome.
{You are right the Roman’s were the ones that destroy the city and temple, and they are addressed in the prophecy as the abomnator.desolator….(even they themselves were going to reap what the sowed)…}
{But the truth is that the prophecy does blames the People of the Prince Nagid) to come…which is the People of the Messiah Prince(Nagid) which is to come…}
There is NO Messiah Prince (Nagid) there when speaking of the destruction. It is ONLY a Prince, nothing more.
In the following you are INSERTING WORDS THAT ARE NOT THERE. This is WHY you are confusing what is written. You simply have to look at EACH and EVERY Word that is written. Do not Add to the Word.
I had already typed all those verses Once. I haven’t felt like going back and typing them all over again. You’ll just have to read what has been written previously.
{The problem I see is that you and others do not follow what the initial verse has established…
which is that the Messiah is also the Nagid (the Prince) that was to come….
so once the prophecy establish this identification….why loose sense of it?
The Messiah Nagid, is the same person which is also called by either of those titles,
call the Messiah or the Nagid …(why introduced a second or third person when the Messiah Nagid is from the start established as one?)…
Keep the idea behind this Messiah Nagid….which was that He “was to come”…
(the foretelling of His coming….is important in knowing who is the Messiah Nagid, Messiah or Nagid…all the same person is alluded)…}
Sharbano says:
May 5, 2015 at 8:48 pm
<62weeks–>1week–>end 70weeks
The issues then are the starting and ending points of the timelines as defined in the prophetic message!
<62weeks–>1week–>
2) UNTO 62 WEEKS?
THIS MEANS….at the end of the 62 weeks, and specific time period, a date, an specific year or even month if information given about the starting point as to month.year….then 62 weeks(434 years) later we should arrive to the specific end of that period of 62 weeks…
for example…using the biblical data…the 62 weeks start when the 7 weeks finished(see above)…since we know the starting point of the 7 weeks as being the date of the decree, we then can calculate the starting point of the 62 weeks taking place 7 weeks later(49 years later)…for the decree of 457bc…we have=
a) first using the decree known (eg. 457bc for us) you need to find out which is the ending point for those 7 weeks(49 years) which are limited by the starting point as the decree and the ending point 7 weeks(49yers) later…the ending point of the 7 weeks, is also the starting point of the 62 weeks since they are consecutive…=
D=(-)457BC +7WKS(49 YEARS)->START 62WEEKS= 408AD
then..using 408 as the starting point of the 62 weeks we can arrive to the ending point of those 62 weeks as 27ad=
UNTO 62 WEEKS= END OF THE 62 WEEKS = SPECIFIC POINT IN TIME= 27AD(for the decree of 457bc now this will vary according for which date you identify as the starting pint of this time period as it relates to which decree you use to identify the starting point of this second period,)=
start(-)408ad + 62weeks(434 years)–>ending point 62weeks= 27ad (no year 0)
3) UNTO 69WEEKS(483YRS)?
means the end of the 69 years period, which is an exact date, and which starting point is given the prophecy as the date of the decree(to restore), therefore one can calculate the ending point of this time period of 69wks(483 years) by knowing its starting point
…(this will vary according the date of the decree chosen to start those 69 weeks timeline)
start=decree(-)457bc + 7wks.62wks(69wks/483 years)—> 27ad (no year 0)
note= notice above the ending point for the 62 weeks is the same ending point for the 69 weeks, which is 27ad(using the starting point the date of the decree of 457bc). But truth be told …the ending point of the 62 weeks and ending point of the 69 weeks will be the same for any decree date chosen. So when in the prophecy speaks of the end of the 62 weeks or end of the 69 weeks is in fact speaking of the same point in time, an specific date which for the decree of 457bc this will be 27ad(the arrival of Jesus as the Messiah)
3)AFTER 62 WEEKS?
As such if a statement says “AFTER 62WEEKS” …. what comes after the 62wks?
by default this means anywhere from the next week or 70th week into the future…….
“other statements or information if present in the vision then localize the specific event to an specific date in history” …but if no more details or information is available concerning the event told just to happen “after 62 weeks” …then the time of the event remains nonspecific as meaning anywhere “including the 70 weeks forwards into eternity”
So the vision when saying “AFTER 62 WEEKS” is not localizing the event in the prophetic history…except for saying that is to happen anywhere after the end of 62 weeks(since the Messiah comes at the end of the 62 weeks…then the prophecy is also telling us that those events listed as taking place “after 62 weeks” are taking place “after the arrival of the Messiah an thereafter” (again unless further localized by other data in the prophecy)…
note= since above was shown that the prophecy when saying “UNTO 62 WEEKS” means the same as when saying “UNTO 69 WEEKS” (that is both time periods have a common ending point, the variation in number is accounted by different starting points,=
-being the date of the decree of 457BC as the “start of the 69weeks” ..ending point= 27ad
-then 434ad, as “the start of the 62weeks”, the ending point in common is = 27ad
THEREFORE….when saying “AFTER 62 WEEKS” means the same as saying “AFTER 69 WEEKS” since they have a common ending point…which means for the decree of 457bc ending point in 27ad (for both time periods=62/69wks) when saying “AFTER 62/69WKS” it is saying anywhere from the 70th week forwards, same as saying anywhere from the times of the Messiah in the 70th week(since He is told to arrive at the end of the 62/69weeks which is also the beginning of the next or 70th week, which is 27ad as beginning of the 70th week (27ad t0o 34ad) again for the decree of 457bc for example….the dates will change if a different decree is used)
AFTER 62 WEEKS= MEANS ANYWHERE DURING THE 70TH WEEK(WEEK OF THE MESSIAH) AND FORWARDS INTO ETERNITY…ALL THOSE POINT IN TIME ARE INCLUDED IN THAT EXPRESSION..when exactly needs further prophetic and or historic information….and for the abomination.desolation/destruction of the city and temple history tells us that that happened in 70 ad…this date tells us that by this point in time the Messiah has arrived already during the 70th week…why?
IMPORTANT=
Think of what the prophecy is telling you= notice “AFTER 62 WEEKS(SAME AS AFTER 69 WEEKS…since the 62 or 69 weeks have a common ending point)…anything listed as happening after this period 62/69 weeks, since the Messiah arrives at the end of the 62/69weeks, then everything happening “AFTER” the 69 or 62 weeks is in fact happening either during the 70th week which is the week of the Messiah actions or thereafter….
as such notice the following events to take place during or after the times of the Messiah/70th week or thereafter, which is the death of the Messiah which is then followed thereafter by the abomination.desolation/destruction of the Jewish CITY and temple(70ad)…notice the destruction included not only the temple, but the whole city, and did happened as such in 70ad=
Dan 9:26 And AFTER threescore and two weeks (MEANS AFTER 62 WEEKS, SINCE THE MESSIAH ARRIVES AT THE END OF THE 62 WEEK, THIS ALSO MEANS AFTER THE ARRIVAL OF THE MESSIAH/WHICH TOOK PLACE AT THE END OF THE 62WEEKS)= —–>END 62/MESSIAH ARRIVED–> AFTER 62 WEEKS..anytime thereafter, includes the 70th week and thereafter=
1) shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself:
2) and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary;
and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
IMPORTANT OBSERVATION= According to the prophecy the Messiah was to arrive at the end of the 62 weeks and thereafter He was to die…but not only that…. thereafter the city and temple was to be destroyed(70ad). This shows a key relationship that needs to be understood, which is first arrives, then dies thereafter, to be associated or to be followed thereafter by the destruction of the city and temple(70ad)….=
which means that according to the Messiah(or Messiahs according to you) was scheduled to arrive before the destruction of the Jerusalem and its temple…that is the Messiah was to arrive before 70 ad according to the prophecy and historic correlation…=
DANIEL 9 TELL US THAT THE MESSIAH= WAS TO ARRIVE BEFORE 70AD
WHO WAS HE? (OR IS HE STILL?)…for us Christians identifying the decree of total restoration(going back to being an active city/state and temple) as being the one of 457bc which is the one given by Artaxerxes and recorded in Ezra 7, then the timelines bring us to Jesus as the Messiah…
but certainly…I will like to know which royal word(decree, or commandment), is the one you choose to bring you to the times of the 70th week ( which is identify in the prophecy as the times of the Messiah= since He arrives at the end of the 62weeks, and its ministry and death occurs during the next week(70th week) as details of the prophecy tells us)…
keeping mind that the sequence is as follows…7weeks, then the 62 weeks which in turn is being followed by the last or 70th week=
7weeks->62 weeks->1wk(70th week)–>end of 70 weeks.
THEREFORE…
This all means that Jewish Messiah has already arrived…foretold to arrive before the destruction of their city and 2nd temple in 70ad…. as the prophecy of Daniel 9 tell us…
so who was/is the Messiah….?
For us, Christians, the decree of the post-Babylonian restoration of the city and temple was 457bc ending the 69 weeks(483 years) in 27ad as such bring us to Jesus the Messiah…his ministry and death taking place during the 70th week (27ad to 34ad), the Messiah dying in the midst of that 70th week, which is 31ad ..as calculated, and historically told….
…..for others using different decree then the will have different Messiahs.. but the question remains…did the desolation of the city and temple came close to the times of these other Messiahs…..if not…likely they are not the Messiah in question since apparently the arrival of the Messiah, his death and rejection by His people..(no one was for him) was to thereafter be followed by the destruction of the city and temple…once again…this time it did happened by the Romans in 70ad.
So the prophecy although hard, yet there is a rainbow at the end…(in the next 2nd paragarft)…but first….
Daniel was concerned about his people, and their land, city and temple…
certainly at the time of the prophetic message he was concerned not only with their past, but with their future. The prophecy of Daniel 9 was given in the first year of Darius (522bc)…(Darius I (Old Persian: Dārayava(h)uš, c. 550–486 BCE) …
accordingly Cyrus already had given order for reconstruction by 539bc…but apparently everything was moving slow…as such Daniel’s concern…
So the prophecy of Daniel 9 dated around 522 bc(plus or minus a couple of years)… is an answer and even more for Daniel’s concerns…in it was foretold that a decree was to come
(likely the finalizing decree of 457bc…because the one of Cyrus/539bc was already in the past of the time of this vision of Daniel 9)
Therefore..the “word”(command, decree) to finalize the (post-babylonian) complete restoration of Jerusalem/temple is the one alluded in the prophecy of Daniel 9, which altough spearheaded by the the one of Cyrus(538ad), and including the one of Darius(519bc) then finalized the details of the restoration in the foretold decree of 457bc…
This final decree of 457bc was to include the final details of this restoration, (which truth be told this order for restoration was given by a series of decrees, rather than a single one including all details). This later decree of 457bc was to include functional political and religious powers as there recorded in Ezra 7……all this time.. (apparently it took a time from the decree of Cyrus in 539bc given well before the prophecy of Dan. 9, to the final decree in 457bc to give the total “word” or commands to complete the restoration of the city and temple)…….
but what is the prophecy saying?
It is saying that the city and temple post babylonian restoration(spearheaded by Cyrus, and finalized by Artarxerxes in 457bc when giving religious political power to the city and temple, as such Israel a nation under God once again)…was to take place, and that from this point in time of the decree in question ….the city and temple were to be given a period of probation of 490 years, during which the nation and temple were to be in function,…
it also says that during the last week of these 490 years, that is during the last 7 years( last week/70th week, the last 483 to 490 yrs) the Messiah was to arrive, minister and die in the midst of this last week of probationary time for the nation of Israel…but the unfortunately this same restore temple and city were to be destroyed once again, and two guilty parties are alluded, which are the people of the Nagid (Messiah Nagid) to come and a desolater, which we know in hindsight to have being the Roman Empire…..as such…
Daniel 9 was foretelling…this future timeline for Israel still in ruins (although the initial order of restoration spearheaded by Cyrus had already being given)….as such foretold of a completed restoration to what it used to be, a nation under God, and to remain as such for 490 years of probation…but unfortunately their Messiah was to die (and all that that means)…and thereafter the re-desolation/destruction of the city and temple was to take place…the desolation of Israel once again was foretold…(until when…? other prophecies will tell, not said in this one)…
POSTBABYLONIAN DESOLATION…>RESTORATION…>TO ROMAN DESOLATION=
decree–>restore/function.city.temple/Israel–(Messiah/X)->end probation…abom.des.
So Daniel was to told that the post-babilonian restoration was to be completed, that the nation and city were to be religious/politically functional during a period of time of 70weeks(490years), that during the last week/70th of this period of probation the Messiah was to arrive and die(likely being rejected/the period of probabion ended, failed)…this likely so since after the abomination desolation was to follow…(likely soon after…)…which it did since by 70ad the city of Jerusalem, its temple and the whole nation were abominated and desolated by the Romans…(the question remains who made the Romans mad and they then came and destroy the city and temple, ….or who rejected the Messiah)…these are all tough questions that need to be answered not in despair but in hope…
And here…the end of the rainbow….in what Israel fail, its representative the Messiah succeeded….!!!!
as such He will fulfilled His promises, this time at the personal level his New Covenant is opened to all…original Jews and grafted gentiles branches in the Good Olive Tree, the Israel of God…The Israel of Faith(original Jews and us gentiles adopted there) all of us will inherit the earth made new, our capital the New Jerusalemmand the Holy Temple, to settle right there in the plain of the Mount of Olives…..The Promised Land …the Land of Israel!!!
Well…this format really messes things up…the sequence is 7wks.62wks.1wk=70weeks,
this format removes the first 7weks….most of the time that I write this sequence…so sorry…I really tried…
BR– Why are you doing this? You keep spinning your wheels on Dan 9 and for one, you have been shown all there is to know 10 times over. And, there are 50 million other reasons Jesus was not the messiah. Even if Jesus fit Dan 9 perfectly and he doesnt, there are still countless reasons he was a failed messianic candidate. Move on!
You keep bringing up this (decree of 457bce). There is absolutely Nowhere in scripture that gives this date. Therefore it is made up out of thin air.
I asked before and will ask it again. You completely ignore all references to Cyrus. Instead you (pick) Artaxerxes. How can you ignore the many references regarding Cyrus that are in Ezra, Chronicles and Isaiah. These references are DIRECTLY related to Daniel, whereas Artaxerxes has no similar references. Furthermore Daniel does NOT say it is a decree. It says from the “Word”, i.e. Hebrew Davar, which means word. You continue to use decree in order to relate it to Artaxerxes. In all the references given it uses the same format, the “word of Hashem, the “word going forth”. It is the same with anointed. Cyrus is G-d’s Mashiach. Why do you think G-d named him a Mashiach, just for the heck of it.
You also wanted to see a Jewish translation which I spent time typing in and evidently have completely ignored. I refrained from typing it again believing you would ignore it as you have in many other cases. If you want to continue then use the provided Artscroll translation that I spent time typing in.
{IMPORTANT OBSERVATION= According to the prophecy the Messiah was to arrive at the end of the 62 weeks and thereafter He was to die…but not only that…. thereafter the city and temple was to be destroyed(70ad). This shows a key relationship that needs to be understood, which is first arrives, then dies thereafter, to be associated or to be followed thereafter by the destruction of the city and temple(70ad)….=
which means that according to the Messiah(or Messiahs according to you) was scheduled to arrive before the destruction of the Jerusalem and its temple…that is the Messiah was to arrive before 70 ad according to the prophecy and historic correlation…}
Your “observation” fails a logical analysis. There is the 40 years between “your” messiah’s death and the Temple’s destruction.
Furthermore, I don’t know HOW many times it must be said. According to scripture Cyrus is Hashem’s Mashiach. Can You Deny This. He is the anointed prince. It should ALSO be known that the High Priest, the Kohen Gadol, is Also a Mashiach. Just because Your bible doesn’t call them Messiah’s doesn’t change the fact that they Are. The question then becomes, at what point did the Kohen Gadol disappear. It was precisely at the time of the end of the Temple. Without that Temple there is no High Priest. Therefore he is cut off and exists no more. Just as Daniel had said.
.Sharbano says:
May 6, 2015 at 12:38 pm
>>>You keep bringing up this (decree of 457bce). There is absolutely Nowhere in scripture that gives this date. Therefore it is made up out of thin air.
Ok….lets get real here….the vision of Daniel 9/522bc, does mention the decree(WORD) or order given to restore Jerusalem and temple (after the Babylonian desolation) which was completed with the decree of Artarxerxers, giving Israel religious political powers once again…
and despite of what you say…that truth is that the Bible records this detail in its entirety in Ezra 7, and this decree is dated by historical records of the Persians as being457bc….
It is not true that this date is made out of think air
nd I know that what you are saying is not the truth….
>>>I asked before and will ask it again. You completely ignore all references to Cyrus. Instead you (pick) Artaxerxes.
For two reasons
1) by the time of the vision of Daniel 9 of 522bc, Cyrus was already dead(530bc), which means that there is not way that he is the Messiah to come of which the prophecy speaks to come…as=
a) 7weeks.62weeks(69weeks=483 years into the future(as we understand)
b) and its was Artaxerxes decree/457bc by Persian records, given in Ezra 7. the one that finally gave the order for the total restoration of the city and temple, at all levels, religious- political and physical restoration….
in so doing providing magistrates and judges for self ruling and much more…
>>>How can you ignore the many references regarding Cyrus that are in Ezra, Chronicles and Isaiah.
A)
In all those prophecies of Zacariah and Jeremiah, and others. Cyrus is presented as the ending point of the Babylonian desolation of 70 years, and as such was fulfilled.
JEREMIAH’S….BABYLONIAN DESOLATION=
609c/des.starts +70 years/Bab.des->Cyrus/539bc/decree
B)
DANIEL’S POST-BABYLONIAN/RESTORATION
But Daniel 9’s prophecy address the next time period, the Post Babylonian Restoration, =
decrees/457bc +70wks(7wk.62wks.1wk/X)34ad/e.o.p…70ad/abom.des.
X= messiah as part of the 70weeks, more specifically during last or 70th week, is to arrive, minister and died..
e.o.p= end of probation , at the end of the 70 weeks
abom.des= abomination desolation, the city and temple once again destroyed in 70ad…by the Romans.
Cyrus although certainly spearheading this restoration did not finish in setting it up the Word/decrees that was to induce its complete restoration, because he died long before all the details of it were in place, even dying in 530ad, long before the vision of Daniel 9 of the 70 weeks was given, therefore Cyrus cannot be the Messiah that that vision presents in its future, as the Messiah to come..whether coming at the end of the next 7 weeks, or by the end of the 7wks.62wks(69wks) timeline…
DANIEL9 PROPHECIES= POST-BAB RESTORATION
DECREE/457BC +69WKS->A-1w/X–>E/70weeks…a.b
A= arrival of the Messiah
X= death of the Messiah
E= end of the 70 weeks period of probation
a.b= abomination desolation…outside the probationary period of the 70weeks(which ended in 34ad), therefore happening several years later in 70ad..
>>>These references are DIRECTLY related to Daniel, whereas Artaxerxes has no similar references.
Wow….let me repeat it…
Cyrus was the ending point of the period of 70 years of Babylonian Desolation, and as such was prophecized and as such happened….his decree in 539ad ended the Babylonian oppression, and spearheaded the restoration of Israel….but anybody knows that he did not completed all the plans needed for this restoration, as such he had nothing further to do in the finalization of the plans for the Post-Babylonian Restoration, which fell heavily in the shoulders of Darius and later on was finalized by Artarxerxes…(with their decrees to do so, opening the door for further restoration to be done)….
So you are doing what many do…
they are confusing the prophecies
a) OF JEREMIAH/ZACHARIAH/BABYLONIAN DESOLATION….
= for the 70 years time of duration of the Babylonian desolation/oppression which ENDED with the decree of Cyrus in 539bc as foretold.
b) confusing it, WITH DANIEL 9’s PROPHECY of the 70 WEEKS, which was given later, (even after Cyrus death/530bc)) which was given to Daniel in first years of Darius, that is in 522bc. This prophecy presented further details about the Post-Babilonian Restoration and Function of the nation of Israel for a total period of probation to last 490 years(70weeks)= starting from the completed decree/457bc which induced this total restoration of its city and temple as given by Artaxerxes, and which extends into the next time period when of the functioning city and temple, to include the later times when its Messiah was to arrive at the end of the 69weeks, as such in action during the last or 70th week, dying in the midst of that 70th week. To the end of this timeline of 70weeks(490weeks) in 34ad when probation was to close for the Jews…and soon thereafter the abomination desolation of the CITY and Temple, in 70ad, in the hand of the Romans as history confirms..
>>>Furthermore Daniel does NOT say it is a decree. It says from the “Word”, i.e. Hebrew Dabar, which means word. You continue to use decree in order to relate it to Artaxerxes. In all the references given it uses the same format, the “word of Hashem, the “word going forth”.
My goodness…you really like to split hairs…
If a king gives a WORD….a mandate…what do you think he is doing? A kings gives an order, the same as saying that he gives a command or decree….why make so much a do about nothing….?
Truth be told there were given 3 “WORDS”(decrees), which were mandates of the MedoPersian kings which cover different aspects for the post-babylonian restoration of Israel, from its temple, people, city and religious political powers…It so happens the last decree of 457 was the one that contain religious political powers to re-establish Israel once again as a nation before God, and this completed decree is the one the prophecy of Daniel 9 is addressing as the date of decree to restore the city and temple, by default Israel as a nation.
>>It is the same with anointed. Cyrus is G-d’s Mashiach. Why do you think G-d named him a Mashiach, just for the heck of it.
Cyrus had his position in the prophetic message of Jeremiah/Zacharia as marking the ending point of the 70 years of Babylonian oppression and desolation, by conquering Babylon and spear heading the restoration of Israel…and as such he fulfilled…
70 YEARS BABYLONIAN DESOLATION prophecy=
end/Cyrus =
70 years timeline
starting point= starts oppression Babylon/609bc
ending point= end of Babylon under Cyrus, and he spearheading, the initiation of restoration…539bc
70 WEEKS/483 YEARS POST BABYLONIAN RESTORATION PROPHECY=
Decree/457bc +70wks(490yrs)/x-> 34ad/end 70wks..a.d.
>>>You also wanted to see a Jewish translation which I spent time typing in and evidently have completely ignored.
No …that is my next project…
it is just that I am behind answering your posts…..
>>I refrained from typing it again believing you would ignore it as you have in many other cases. If you want to continue then use the provided Artscroll translation that I spent time typing in.
Sorry, I did not meant for you to type it…
I thought this are available for typing and pasting like the ones I use… but believe me I am going to study it …a lot…
{IMPORTANT OBSERVATION= According to the prophecy the Messiah was to arrive at the end of the 62 weeks and thereafter He was to die…but not only that…. thereafter the city and temple was to be destroyed(70ad). This shows a key relationship that needs to be understood, which is first arrives, then dies thereafter, to be associated or to be followed thereafter by the destruction of the city and temple(70ad)….=
which means that according to the Messiah(or Messiahs according to you) was scheduled to arrive before the destruction of the Jerusalem and its temple…that is the Messiah was to arrive before 70 ad according to the prophecy and historic correlation…}
>>>Your “observation” fails a logical analysis. There is the 40 years between “your” messiah’s death and the Temple’s destruction.
I did take that into account…
1) I did say that Messiah’s arrival was to take place before the abomination desolation of 70 ad…therefore the Messiah was to arrive before 70ad…as such already came…
2) the abomination desolation does not take place during the time of probation (not during those 70 weeks of probation, therefore neither within the week of the Messiah, not within the 70th week). Which means that the abomination desolation takes place outside the 70 weeks….
as such the abomination desolation not only takes place AFTER 62(same as after 69wks) as the prophecy says, but also after the 70weeks(after 34ad as the ending point of the 70 weeks)…which it did by taking place in 70ad…. As shown here=
abom.des= After… 7wks.62wks, 1wk=After70wks=
decree—+70weeks (490yrs)->34ad…70ad/abom.des.
decree-+7wks.62wks.1wk/X->34ad….70ad/abom.des.
3) I did say that the prophecy does not give an specific time of the abomination desolation, it only says that it is to take place AFTER 62 weeks, which means AFTER the arrival of the Messiah(since he arrive at the end of the 62weeks)…as such anytime thereafter, ….actually AFTER THE 70 WEEKS OF PROBATION the abomination was to take place…since I said this is a nonspecific time period, anytime thereafter, as such 40 years later is included in the prophecy as possible..…your saying that I did not take this in consideration is incorrect…
4) The fact is that one gets the sense that the abom.des is to come shortly after the death of the Messiah…
40 years in a prophecy of 490 years is a short time indeed(despite what you say)…and it is the shorter time period for 457bc, when comparing with the end of the 70 weeks of probation for all the other decrees available..,
the shorter separation from the abom.des to the end of probation-end 70 weeks is for the decree of 457 bc… .using the other decrees makes this distance is larger, much separated…which is not what the prophecy implies… The prophecy gives the sense that this two points, the end of probation(end of the 70weeks) is closely followed by the resultant abomination.desolation of the Jewish temple and city/70ad…close one from the other…so a 40 years separation is fairly close…compare to the other decrees..
457bc/Artax. +70 wks/490yrs->+34ad to 70ad
519bc/Darius+70 wks/490yrs-> -29bc to 70ad
539bc/Cyrus + 70wks/490yrs-> -46bc to 70ad
>>>Furthermore, I don’t know HOW many times it must be said. According to scripture Cyrus is Hashem’s Mashiach. Can You Deny This. He is the anointed prince.
I never deny that …. that is is emperor and anointed…
But truth be told he solely fulfills the prophecy referring to the end of the Babylonian Deportation, as such his decrees/Words and actions of conquering the Babylonian empire, mark the ending point of this period of oppression, desolation…
Cyrus is the ending point for this 70 years Babylonian Desolation timeline…
But Cyrus is not personally directly associated with the next period of the Post Babylonian Restoration (because he was dead even before this vision of Daniel 9 was given)…although, certainly he spearheaded this restoration with his initial decree/539bc, yet further decrees were needed to complete the plan for restoration, the one putting the finishing touches being the decree/word of Artarxerxes, of 457bc…
This later completing decree of 457bc being the decree which marks the starting point of the next timeline of the post-babylonian restoration and functioning of nation for 70 weeks(490years), which was a period of probationary time for Israel, during which the restoration and function of the city and temple took place including the later arrival of the Messiah during the last or 70th week. It was during this 70th week that the Messiah confirmed the New Covenant, and annulled the Old Covenant of sacrifices and oblation, dying in the midst of this 70th week. By the end of the 70th week, Israel had rejected the New Covenant and the Old Covenant had become obsolete… Since then, and because Israel rejection of the New covenant in Christ…any participation in the New Covenant is solely at the personal level, for believer original Jewish branches and grafted gentile branches…all forming the Israel of God…the Israel of Faith…
>>>It should ALSO be known that the High Priest, the Kohen Gadol, is Also a Mashiach. Just because Your bible doesn’t call them Messiah’s doesn’t change the fact that they Are.
I never denied the fact that there were many anointed, take David for example…even Saul…ect…
The issue is “The Messiah”…who is he…
who is the one that was to end transgression, bring everlasting righteousness and cause the atonement at His death…. And none of those Kohen Gadol accomplish such fete…Remember sin came to this world by Adam and it was another man Christ which was to find pardon for the sinner…
>>>The question then becomes, at what point did the Kohen Gadol disappear. It was precisely at the time of the end of the Temple. Without that Temple there is no High Priest. Therefore he is cut off and exists no more. Just as Daniel had said.
Not so fast…
First, one need to respect the starting and ending points of the timeline…because that way anybody can stick any anointed and call him The Messiah….which is not so..
Secondly… you should not be looking for the Messiah as dying during the abomination desolation/destruction of the Jewish temple in 70ad….
why? Because the prophecy says that death of the Messiah was to happen in the midst of the 70th week, at which point He was to bring atonement…as such the Messiah dying within the 70 weeks(after the 69th, therefore during the 70th week) tells us that the Messiah dies within the period of mercy/probation, certainly its last week, as such dies well before the following abomination desolation..… ”
The Messiah does not dies during the abomination desolation/70ad) which takes place outside the period of probation, He was to die inside the 70 weeks of mercy
= 457bvc (70weeks/X)/31ad……abom.des/70ad
The abomination desolation takes place AFTER the 70weeks of probationary time(after this period of mercy ended), this is so since abom.des/70ad it is the judgment of the city and temple…
That is why that the abomination desolation of 70ad, in all calculations for all the given decrees, falls outside and after the end of the 70 weeks probation…as such when judgment fall, then abom.des. takes place…
(D–70 weeks probation-X-)/34ad …after/judge/70ad
So whomever died during the abom.des of 70 ad is not the Messiah of the prophecy, simply because according to the prophecy He is in action during the 70th week, which is the last week of the 70 weeks probation(therefore inside the 70 weeks period of mercy)..not in action during the time of judgment which is the abomination desolation…
I remember typing it all out but I can’t find it So here it is from the Artscroll Tanach
Daniel 9:
23) At the beginning of your supplications a word went forth, and I have come to relate it, for you are beloved. Contemplate this matter and gain understanding in the vision.
24) Seventy Septets have been decreed upon your people and upon your holy city to terminate transgression, to end sin, to wipe away iniquity, to bring everlasting righteousness, to confirm the visions and prophets, and to anoint the Holy of Holies.
25) Know and comprehend: From the emergence of the word to return and to build Jerusalem until the anointment of the prince will be seven septets, and for sixty-two setptets it will be rebuilt, street and moat, but in troubled times.
26) Then, after the sixty-two septets, the anointed one will be cut off and will exist no longer; the people of the prince will come will destroy the city and the Sanctuary; but his end wll be [to be swept away as] in a flood. Then, until the end of the war, desolation is decreed.
27) He will forge a strong covenant with the great ones for one septet; but for half of that septet he will abolish sacrifice and meal offering, and the mute abomination will be upon soaring heights, until extermination as decreed will pour down upon the mute [abomination].
Before I answer your posts…is it possible that you may give me=
1) the dates of the starting points and ending points of the given timelines….for the 70 weeks, for the 7wks, for the 62weeks, and for the last week….1week/70th week
2) who is associated with the corresponding starting points and ending points, why do you think that person fulfills the prophetic requirements
3) the date of the Roman abomination.desolation of the Jewish temple/70ad…how long it lasted….
from when to when… and how do that abomination desolation relates to the end of the 70weeks.
You shouldn’t be hung up on dates. We know WHO the individual IS. After the 49 years it is Cyrus who enters the picture. This is all we need to know. This is confirmed in the many places cited previously.
I got a surprise to you….it cannot be Cyrus….because when the prophecy Daniel 9’s vision given during the first year of Darius, (around 522bc) … by then Cyrus was already history(576 – 530 BC/died), in fact was already dead, as such he is not the Messiah foretold to come in that vision!!!
By the time of prophecy of Daniel 9 was given in 522bc, Cyrus was already dead in 530bc, dead 8 years before the vision of Daniel 9 was given)…since bc the numbers get smaller..
a)
What we say=
Cyrus is not the Messiah to come, since he was already dead when the prophecy was given of the Messiah Prince to come many weeks into the future…=
530bc/Cyrus.dead–>522bc/Daniel.9.given–>7weeks.62 weeks–>Messiah arrives/dies
530/dies.Cyrus->522bc/Dan.9vision>457bc/decree->7wks.62wks->27ad/Messiah arrives
b)
even saying it your way,
Cyrus is neither your 1st Messiah nor your 2nd Messiah(M)=
530bc/Cyrus.dead–>522bc/Daniel9.given–>7weeks(1stM)->62wks->2nd Messiah/dies…
See what the Bible says..the same I told you above=
FIRST YEAR OF DARIUS/522BC= DANIEL PROPHECY
Dan 9:1 In the first year(522bc) of Darius the son of Ahasuerus, of the seed of the Medes, which was made king over the realm of the Chaldeans;
Dan 9:2 In the first year of his reign I Daniel understood by books the number of the years, whereof the word of the LORD came to Jeremiah the prophet, that he would accomplish seventy years in the desolations of Jerusalem. …(70 YEARS, DESOLATION).
Dan 9:22 And he informed me, and talked with me, and said, O Daniel, I am now come forth to give thee skill and understanding.
Dan 9:23 At the beginning of thy supplications the commandment came forth, and I am come to shew thee; for thou art greatly beloved: therefore understand the matter, and consider the vision. (DEALS WITH THE POST-BABILONIAN RESTORATION AND FUNCTIONING CITY AND TEMPLE)
Dan 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city,
So…we need not confuse….this two different time periods….
1)
the Babylonian Desolation = as being 70 years…(which Daniel was wondering about)
from the
2)
Post Babylonian Restoration/funtioning/re-desolation= That Daniel 9 foretells…
timelines related as such=
decrees/539/519/457bcend
Although by the time of Daniel 9/522bc, Cyrus already dead, had already given the limiting decree for the start of the restoration (end point for the 70 yrs/609-539bc), nonetheless the decrees for its total restoration at all levels had not being given yet, it took the next decree of Darius 519bc and Artaxerxes 457bc to finally give the word(decree) for the complete restoration, as such its religious political physical complete restoration decreed….(means the order to so accomplish)….It was from this finalizing decree of 457BC, that the next period of the 70 weeks were to be counted, which was to bring through a period of restoration and functioning city and temple to culminate in the arrival of the Messiah, his death and subsequent end of probation at the end of the 70 weeks period in 34ad…
this to be followed thereafter for the re-destruction of the city and temple..once again..and it did in 70ad…
Daniel is telling us about Jerusalem and the temple…
although
destroyed->(decree/restore/function/M/X)70wks->end of probation…..abom.desolation
FORETOLD IN DANIEL 9…THAT JERUSALEM ALTHOUGH STILL DESOLATED, WAS TO BE GIVEN A DECREE TO FINALIZED ITS RESTORATION, AND WAS TO BE THEREAFTER IN FUNCTION, EVEN DURING THE LATER TIMES OF THE MESSIAH…YET WAS TO FIND ITS DESOLATION ONCE AGAIN…..
DESTROY=>(D)RESTORE=FUNCTIONING/X=PROBATION.ENDS=>DESTROY.AGAIN
………………….(D) FROM 457BC TO 34AD= 70 WEEKS PROBATION->DESTROY.AFTER
NO!!!! Cyrus is not the Messiah foretold by Daniel…
certainly his actions are foretold by Zachariah and Jeremiah concerning ending the Babylonian desolation…that is starting the restoration …
Daniel recognizing this restoration ( decrees spearheaded by Cyrus, finalized by Arta. in 457bc)…his vision takes us from this date of 457bc into a period of 490 years, during which the restoration was to be finalized, the city and temple were going to be in function once again, and by the later time of this period the Messiah..the Desire of Ages was to arrive, die and confirm the New Covenant, annuling the Old Covenant of sacrifices and oblations…then coming the end of the 70weeks(the end of the 490 years probation)….this to be followed thereafter by the the abomination.desolation of the city and temple once again …this time by the Romans….
We can dispense with all your timelines and computations in the manner of forcing the text to reflect “Your” messiah. Let’s see what G-d and the Bible says on the matter.
We do, and I would hope you realize also, that Daniel was contemplating those 70 years spoken of by Jeremiah. He obviously had issues with the 70 years and Hashem’s promise.
Jeremiah says in 25:
11) This entire land shall be a ruin and desolation, and these nations will serve the king of Babylon for seventy years.
12) Then upon completion of seventy years, I shall make an account of their sin for the king of Babylon and for that nation – the [WORD of HASHEM] – and for the land of the Chaldeans; and I shall make it into eternal desolations.
We also have Jeremiah 29:
10) For thus said Hashem: After seventy years for Babylonia have been completed I will attend to you and I will fulfill for you My favorable promise, to return you to this place.
Although both of these 70 year visions foretold the termination of the Babylonian Empire, it was only the second prophecy, 29:10, that spoke of the restoration of the Jewish people to the Promised Land. When Daniel examined these two texts, he thought, incorrectly, that the two 70 years were speaking of an identical period of time. This misunderstanding caused him to draw three flawed conclusions. First, that the point to begin counting the 70 years was when Babylon conquered Jerusalem. Second, these prophecies must therefore end 70 years after Jerusalem’s subjugation, when Darius the Mede succeeded the throne. Thirdly, because Jeremiah’s second prophecy spoke of G-d restoring Israel after the completion of 70 years. Daniel thus concluded that the second Temple would certainly be built in the first year of Darius the Mede.
When Daniel realized, 9:1 [In the first year of Darius, son of Achashverosh of the offspring of Media, who was made king…], and there was no sign of redemption, he became deeply perplexed. He thought the sins of the people had caused the date to be delayed, or worse, canceled. This thought compelled Daniel to fast and pray (9:4-20) for the restoration of Jerusalem and its Sanctuary. This is when Gabriel comes to give understanding of Jeremiah words.
It is in this chapter that Daniel is made to understand that the two prophecies of Jeremiah are in fact not identical, and each one refers to a separate albeit overlapping 70 year period of time. While the prophecy of Jeremiah 25:12 was indeed referring to the 70 year span that began when Jerusalem was subjugated the prophecy for the restoration was not to begin for another 18 years. Therefore Gabriel instructs Daniel that in order to correctly ascertain when the Second Temple would be built he must begin counting the years “from the going forth of the Word (Davar, 9:25), which is the WORD of Jeremiah that begins at the destruction of Jerusalem. Jeremiah’s prophecy of restoration was fulfilled 18 years later than Daniel had envisioned.
The angel Gabriel responds to Daniel’s inquiry by carefully outlining the course of events which was to unfold over a crucial period of time that spanned 490 years. The Babylonian exile lasted 70 years and the Second Temple stood for 420 years. Thus, Gabriel not only revealed to Daniel when the Second Temple would be restored but when it would be destroyed as well.
This has covered Jeremiah. As it turns out we don’t even need Daniel to complete the picture because Ezra has done it for us. Daniel was contemplating Jeremiah and Ezra tells of the fulfillment of Jeremiah. You may dismiss the fact that Cyrus was involved and wasn’t even alive but Ezra disputes your claim.
Ezra 1:
1) In the FIRST year of Cyrus king of Persia, upon the conclusion [you can also read fulfillment] of Hashem’s prophecy by the mouth of Jeremiah, Hashem aroused the spirit of Cyrus king of Persia, and he issued a proclamation throughout his kingdom – and in writing as well, saying:
2) Thus said Cyrus king of Persia: All the kingdoms of the earth has Hashem,G-d of heaven, given to me and HE has commanded me to build Him a Temple in Jerusalem,which is in Judah.
3) Whoever is among you of His entire people – may his G-d be with him – and let him go up to Jerusalem which is in Judah and build the Temple of Hashem, G-d of Israel – He is the G-d! – which is in Jerusalem.
4) And whosoever remains, in whatever place he dwells , let the inhabitants of that place bestow upon him gifts of silver and gold, of valuables and of animals; together with the contribution for the Temple of G-d which is in Jerusalem.
Now, to say Cyrus wasn’t involved would be calling Ezra a liar.
We see that Cyrus says Hashem IS G-d, which is how one that is called Mashiach would refer to G-d. Cyrus praises Hashem for all that He has given to him. Nowhere does Artaxerxes claim that he is ordained by G-d to give his decree. Artaxerxes did his decree at the behest of Ezra’s petition, whereas Hashem Aroused the Spirit of Cyrus. There is a profound difference between Cyrus and Artaxerxes in giving their decrees. The One is By Hashem, the other is by the prodding of Ezra.
There is even more clarification in Chronicles II 36:
19) They burned the Temple of G-d, broke down the wall of Jerusalem, and burned down all its palaces and destroyed all its precious articles.
20) Those who survived the sword he exiled to Babylonia, where they became slaves to him and his sons, until the kingdom of Persia began to reign.
21) This was in fulfillment of the word of Hashem spoken by Jeremiah, until the land would be appeased of its Sabbatical years – all the years of its desolation it rested, to the completion of seventy years.
22) In the first year of Cyrus king of Persia, upon the expiration of Hashem’s prophecy spoken by Jeremiah, Hashem aroused the spirit of Cyrus king of Persia,and he issued a proclamation throughout his kingdom – and in writing as well – saying:
23) Thus said Cyrus king of Persia: Hashem, G-d of Heaven, has given to me all the kingdoms of the earth, and He has commanded me to build Him a Temple in Jerusalem , which is in Judah. Whoever there is among yo of His entire people – may Hashem his G-d be with him,and let him go up!
The KEY WORDS ABOVE are “fulfillment of word”, “He has commanded me”. In concise terms. Cyrus fulfilled Jeremiah’s word of Hashem and was “commanded” BY Hashem to start building.
>>>>We can dispense with all your timelines and computations in the manner of forcing the text to reflect “Your” messiah. Let’s see what G-d and the Bible says on the matter.
My you are totally unfair…I am not trying to fit the timelines…what happens is that they fit history itself supports the data. You think that a prophetic timeline that is given is just to stay there to be ignored…No! it is there to guide us into the truth. I did not give those timelines…if you do not want to use it or believe the prophecy…that is your option…
but to present me as a manipulator of the text, of the truth…is totally a non-truth. I have kept faithful to the truth as presented in the Bible I can read, and I trust that all those more than 60 scholars(do not remember how many), were guided by God so that the English speaking people can have a realible text, as He did for my Spanish Bible that says the same… I know that for many years Daniels timeline were put aside by your people, and I know what they show is not all flattering…But one think it shows that you do Have a Prince and Messiah that cares for you and want you know the truth for what lies ahead…this truth will be revealed to all… but to attack the messenger just because of your own personal believes do not agree with him/her, then it is you who is being unfair…and I dare not say what else!!!
That the decree of 457(documented historically) brings us to 27ad/arrival of Jesus…
with plain mathematics….it is not my fault or manipulation. I am using the decree that completed the plans for the restoration and the timeline is given in the Bible, both starting point and timeline are given….simple mathematics brings us to the ending point as 27ad, and bingo!! there is Jesus…. I am not manipulating anything…
457bc –+69weeks(483yrs)–>27ad/Jesus/Messiah….70ad/abom.des
the following abom.des. in 70ad, after your rejection of the Messiah Jesus, gives further credence to the truth that you rejected the Messiah that was to come…otherwise they will not have taken place…
>>>We do, and I would hope you realize also, that Daniel was contemplating those 70 years spoken of by Jeremiah. He obviously had issues with the 70 years and Hashem’s promise.
Daniel, truth be told, did not understand that prophecy..that is why he was confused,
Notice his place in the timelines….he is smack in the center of the decrees, before him were the 70 years of Babylonian desolation and in front of him was the Post-Babilonian restoration, and he understood neither, because he was not sure how things were going to develop. But God in His mercy show Him His major concern, which was was Israel to be restored and what would be of his people. Truth be told, what Daniel was presented was in His future, not in his past(being Cyrus in His past, already dead).
Babylonian desolation->DANIEL/DECREES<–Post.Babylonian Restoration
you quoted=
<<<return from exiles start/Cyrus/539bc
>>Although both of these 70 year visions foretold the termination of the Babylonian Empire, it was only the second prophecy, 29:10, that spoke of the restoration of the Jewish people to the Promised Land. When Daniel examined these two texts, he thought, incorrectly, that the two 70 years were speaking of an identical period of time.
Both prophecy address the same issues, yet further detail is given with the second one,
which is that the end of the 70 years is the fall of the Roman Empire and end of its oppression/desolation and further detail is add in the second one that “AFTER” the end of this period of Babylonian Desolation, the Jews were to return to their land…
Ok..let me quote the last vision…=
>>>>10) For thus said Hashem: After seventy years for Babylonia have been completed I will attend to you and I will fulfill for you My favorable promise, to return you to this place.
Again, this is the same prophecy with a timeline of 70 years of the Babylonian Empire’s desolation, is repeated to Jeremiah. Its ending point of the timeline of the 70 years is the same, which is the fall of the Babylonian Empire, the end of its power of oppression and desolation….but here the prophecy gives further details relevant to the Jews…something that the initial prophecy had foretold but not with so many details, which is that by the end of the 70 years the Babylonian oppression was to end. What is added in the second prophecy is that that “AFTER” the end of this time period of 70 years(when the Babylonian oppression was to stop), then they were to start returning back to Israel….no more no less..
Babylonian Desolation/70years->end of Babilonian.empire..AFTER/return of exiles
Notice the Biblical promise…is AFTER…this is not an specific time period when they were to return and no details are given as how is this to take place, but certainly soon after the end of the 70 years of Babylonian oppression/desolation…they did return..
>>When Daniel examined these two texts, he thought, incorrectly, that the two 70 years were speaking of an identical period of time. This misunderstanding caused him to draw three flawed conclusions.
Perhaps he did not know all the details…
But if he thought those 70 years mentioned in those two prophecies were the same, he was in fact correct…Pay attention to the starting point of those 70 years in each prophecy,
which was
1st=start-Babylonian/opression/70years->end of it
2nd-start-Babylonian/opression/70years->ends…AFTER return of exiles
I think the problem is with your understanding…
because Jeremiah, in its initial prophecy and later prophecy is saying the same…
which is = speaking of the 70 years of Babylonian oppression and desolation which was to end(Cyrus conquered Babylon at this ending point), and in the second vision he adds that “AFTER the 70 years FOR BABYLON ARE COMPLETED, the the return of exiles is foretold”, …
THE 70 YEARS SPEAKS OF THE TIME OF THE BABYLONIAN EMPIRE, AND ASSOCIATED ABOMINATIONS/DESOLATION AND OPRSSIONS, NOT ONLY OF ISRAEL, CERTAINLY IT DID…BUT ALSO OF MANY OTHER NATIONS=
***”and these nations will serve the king of Babylon for seventy years.”***
That he misunderstood the vision, does not mean that he continue as such..
certainly further details were given to him…which are details about the next stage in the life of the Jewish people, the Post-Babylonian restoration.
Jeremiah’s prophecy did not go into details about this period of the post-Babylonian Restoration…it only says that “AFTER” the end of the 70 years of Babylonian desolation the Jews were to return to Jerusalem.
It was solely to Daniel that was given further details about the Post-Babylonian Restoration of Israel..as Daniel 9 shows…(by the way by this time, Cyrus was already dead, Cyrus although initially spearheading the decrees, did not completed them, did not completed the plans or WORD for the total restoration of Jerusalem and the temple, then Darius participated, and finally this composite decree was finally solidify by Artaxerxes in 457bc)
>>First, that the point to begin counting the 70 years was when Babylon conquered Jerusalem.
I think you are going to run into problems with that date…
because the 70 years include the whole Babylonian oppression,
from 609bc, where it started, to 539bc where Babylon was defeated by Cyrus the MedoPersian king…as such 70 years of Babylonian oppression which is what the prophecy says, certainly it included most importantly his effects in the nation of Israel=
READ WHAT THE FIRST PROPHECY SAYS….=
“and these nations will serve the king of Babylon for seventy years.”
“After seventy years for Babylonia have been completed”
THE 70 YEARS= are the times FOR BABYLON, AND THE NATIONS WILL SERVE THIS EMPIRE FOR 70 YEARS…that is what the prophecy says…so the limits of this time period are the times the Babylonian empire was in power, and its oppression/desolations took place. The starting point of this time period was around 609bc when Babylon let herself in power in the region, and ended at the time of its fall in 539bc=
609bc + 70years–>539bc/fall of Babylon/Cyrus conquers..AFTER jews start return..
>>Second, these prophecies must therefore end 70 years after Jerusalem’s subjugation, when Darius the Mede succeeded the throne.
No…the end of both prophecies (which is in fact one, just more details specifically concerning Israel in the second) is the end of the Babylonian oppression in 539bc, conquered by MedoPersia/Cyrus…
“””After seventy years for Babylonia have been completed”””
“””and these nations will serve the king of Babylon for seventy years.”””
ONCE BABYLON ENDED….THE 70 YEARS ENDED….
>>>Thirdly, because Jeremiah’s second prophecy spoke of G-d restoring Israel after the completion of 70 years. Daniel thus concluded that the second Temple would certainly be built in the first year of Darius the Mede.
You know …you should not paraphrased so much, and better quote the verse in question…where he said or thought what you say…
But let me just say, that whether Daniel understood or not, …God has given a lot of information since then, and we need not make the same mistake (if he did)…because if he thought both prophecies of Jeremiah speak of the same time period of the Babylonian Desolation and oppressive power as lasting 70 years(which I believe you said above) …then let me tell you Daniel was right..the error is not with him…
>>When Daniel realized, 9:1 [In the first year of Darius, son of Achashverosh of the offspring of Media, who was made king…], and there was no sign of redemption, he became deeply perplexed.
So lets find out why was he perplexed, confused…=
1) YES…DARIUS TIMES (CYRUS ALREADY DEAD IN 530BC)
Dan 9:1 In the first year of Darius the son of Ahasuerus, of the seed of the Medes, which was made king over the realm of the Chaldeans;
2) DANIEL THOUGHT THAT THE 70 YEARS WERE FOR THE DESOLATIONS OF ISRAEL, WHICH CERTAINLY WAS DESOLATED DURING THE TIMES OF THE BABYLONIAN EMPIRE (WHICH IS THE TIME OF THE 70 YEARS SPOKEN BY JEREMIAH, AND DANIEL CORRECTLY UNDERSTOOD THIS)
AND ***AFTER*** THIS POINT(THE END OF THE BABYLONIAN EMPIRE’S OPPRESSION), THE RETURN OF EXILES WAS FORETOLD, BUT TRUTH BE TOLD JEREMIAH DID NOT SAY WHEN AND HOW..=.
Dan 9:2 In the first year of his reign I Daniel understood by books the number of the years, whereof the word of the LORD came to Jeremiah the prophet, that he would accomplish seventy years in the desolations of Jerusalem.
3) THEN DANIEL SEEN THAT THE 70 YEARS HAD ENDED (AND PROPERLY UNDERSTOOD, THIS TIME BELONG TO THE BABYLONIAN DESOLATION, NOT QUITE SURE IF HE UNDERSTOOD THE STARTING OR ENDING POINTS, TOO CLOSE TO HIM IT ALL)=..HE THEN SET TO ASK GOD FOR ANSWERS=
Dan 9:3 And I set my face unto the Lord God, to seek by prayer and supplications, with fasting, and sackcloth, and ashes: …
4) DANIEL RECOGNIZES THAT TRANSGRESSION OF ISRAEL AS THE CAUSE OF THE ABOMINATION.DESOLATION THAT HAD BEFALLEN THEIR LAND AND PEOPLE=
Dan 9:10 Neither have we obeyed the voice of the LORD our God, to walk in his laws, which he set before us by his servants the prophets. ..
Dan 9:13 As it is written in the law of Moses, all this evil is come upon us: yet made we not our prayer before the LORD our God, that we might turn from our iniquities, and understand thy truth.
5) DANIEL RECALLS THE GOODNESS OF THE LORD TOWARD HIS PEOPLE, AND DESPITE RECOGNIZING THEIR SIN, HE THEN PLEADS FOR MERCY AND RESTORATION OF THEIR CITY AND TEMPLE=
Dan 9:15 And now, O Lord our God, that hast brought thy people forth out of the land of Egypt with a mighty hand, and hast gotten thee renown, as at this day; we have sinned, we have done wickedly.
Dan 9:16 O Lord, according to all thy righteousness, I beseech thee, let thine anger and thy fury be turned away from thy city Jerusalem, thy holy mountain: because for our sins, and for the iniquities of our fathers, Jerusalem and thy people are become a reproach to all that are about us.
Dan 9:17 Now therefore, O our God, hear the prayer of thy servant, and his supplications, and cause thy face to shine upon thy sanctuary that is desolate, for the Lord’s sake.
6) MERCY FOR THE SAKE OF OWN SAKE…FOR HIS PEOPLE
Dan 9:19 O Lord, hear; O Lord, forgive; O Lord, hearken and do; defer not, for thine own sake, O my God: for thy city and thy people are called by thy name.
7) THE ANSWER TO DANIEL’S PRAYER TAKES PLACE= HE SENDS GABRIEL WITH HIS MESSAGE (THE ANGEL THAT DANIEL HAD SEEN IN THE PREVIOUS VISION GIVEN TO HIM/DANIEL 8)=
Dan 9:20 And whiles I was speaking, and praying, and confessing my sin and the sin of my people Israel, and presenting my supplication before the LORD my God for the holy mountain of my God;
Dan 9:21 Yea, whiles I was speaking in prayer, ****even the man Gabriel, whom I had seen in the vision at the beginning, being caused to fly swiftly, touched me about the time of the evening oblation. ***(HE CALLED AN ANGEL THAT FLIES …THE MAN GABRIEL..INTERESTING…)
8) GABRIEL GIVES DANIEL THE MESSAGE FROM GOD, A MESSAGE THAT IS TO GIVE HIM AN IDEA OF WHAT WAS TO COME ABOUT THE RESTORATION OF HIS PEOPLE AND CITY AND TEMPLE, AS HE WAS ASKING IN THE PRAYER WHICH WAS HIS MAJOR CONCERN…AND ALSO HE IS GOING TO EXPLAIN HIM A VISION THAT HE HAD SEEN PREVIOUSLY(DANIEL 8) AND WHAT IS THE ROLE OF THE JEWISH PEOPLE IN THIS VISION=
Dan 9:22 And he informed me, and talked with me, and said, O Daniel, I am now come forth to give thee skill and understanding.
Dan 9:23 At the beginning of thy supplications the commandment came forth, and I am come to shew thee; for thou art greatly beloved: therefore understand the matter, and consider the vision.
9) HERE IS TOLD THE PROPHECY OF WHAT WAS GOING TO HAPPEN TO THE CITY AND TEMPLE AND THE JEWISH PEOPLE= THIS IS SOLELY ITS FUTURE AS SUCH POST-BABYLONIAN RESTORATION VISION GIVEN IN (522BC), DESPITE PREVIOUS DECREE OF CYRUS, THE CITY AND TEMPLE WAS NOT BEING RESTORED AND THE PEOPLE MOST STILL IN EXILE…THIS WAS THE CONCERN OF DANIEL…WAS WAS TO HAPPEN TO THEM…
THE ANGEL THEN TELLS HIM WAS IS TO HAPPEN TO THEM…THIS SPEAKS OF 70 WEEKS PERIOD OF PROBATION, THE POST-BABYLONIAN RESTORATION AND FUNCTIONING….TO AN EVENTUAL RE-DESOLATION
>>He thought the sins of the people had caused the date to be delayed, or worse, canceled. This thought compelled Daniel to fast and pray (9:4-20) for the restoration of Jerusalem and its Sanctuary. This is when Gabriel comes to give understanding of Jeremiah words.
HAD CAUSED WHAT TO BE DELAY OR CANCELLED?
ANSWER= the return and post Babylonian restoration…
SO WHICH WAS JEREMIAH’S WORDS?= that ***AFTER the end of the 70 years*** of Babylonian oppression, the jews were to return…HE UNDERSTOOD RIGHT…
BOTH PROPHECY SAYS THE SAME…THE RETURN AND RESTORATION TO HAPPEN ***AFTER*** THE 70 YEARS OF BABYLONIAN DESOLATION=
“””After seventy years for Babylonia have been completed”””
“””and these nations will serve the king of Babylon for seventy years.”””
JEREMIAH UNDERSTOOD THAT THE RETURN AND RESTORATION WAS TO TAKE PLACE **AFTER** THE 70 YEARS OF DESOLATION=
“***After seventy years for Babylonia**** have been completed I will attend to you and I will fulfill for you My favorable promise, to return you to this place.
You, know you keep insinuating or outright saying that those 70 years have to do with the restoration and return of the exiles….that is not what says above….above says that IT IS
AFTER the 70 years of Babylon that the return and restoration was to take place…
after is an indefinitive time period, it only means that anytime AFTER
It is in this chapter that Daniel is made to understand that the two prophecies of Jeremiah are in fact not identical, and each one refers to a separate albeit overlapping 70 year period of time. While the prophecy of Jeremiah 25:12 was indeed referring to the 70 year span that began when Jerusalem was subjugated the prophecy for the restoration was not to begin for another 18 years. Therefore Gabriel instructs Daniel that in order to correctly ascertain when the Second Temple would be built he must begin counting the years “from the going forth of the Word (Davar, 9:25), which is the WORD of Jeremiah that begins at the destruction of Jerusalem. Jeremiah’s prophecy of restoration was fulfilled 18 years later than Daniel had envisioned.
The angel Gabriel responds to Daniel’s inquiry by carefully outlining the course of events which was to unfold over a crucial period of time that spanned 490 years. The Babylonian exile lasted 70 years and the Second Temple stood for 420 years. Thus, Gabriel not only revealed to Daniel when the Second Temple would be restored but when it would be destroyed as well.
This has covered Jeremiah. As it turns out we don’t even need Daniel to complete the picture because Ezra has done it for us. Daniel was contemplating Jeremiah and Ezra tells of the fulfillment of Jeremiah. You may dismiss the fact that Cyrus was involved and wasn’t even alive but Ezra disputes your claim.
Ezra 1:
1) In the FIRST year of Cyrus king of Persia, upon the conclusion [you can also read fulfillment] of Hashem’s prophecy by the mouth of Jeremiah, Hashem aroused the spirit of Cyrus king of Persia, and he issued a proclamation throughout his kingdom – and in writing as well, saying:
2) Thus said Cyrus king of Persia: All the kingdoms of the earth has Hashem,G-d of heaven, given to me and HE has commanded me to build Him a Temple in Jerusalem,which is in Judah.
3) Whoever is among you of His entire people – may his G-d be with him – and let him go up to Jerusalem which is in Judah and build the Temple of Hashem, G-d of Israel – He is the G-d! – which is in Jerusalem.
4) And whosoever remains, in whatever place he dwells , let the inhabitants of that place bestow upon him gifts of silver and gold, of valuables and of animals; together with the contribution for the Temple of G-d which is in Jerusalem.
Now, to say Cyrus wasn’t involved would be calling Ezra a liar.
We see that Cyrus says Hashem IS G-d, which is how one that is called Mashiach would refer to G-d. Cyrus praises Hashem for all that He has given to him. Nowhere does Artaxerxes claim that he is ordained by G-d to give his decree. Artaxerxes did his decree at the behest of Ezra’s petition, whereas Hashem Aroused the Spirit of Cyrus. There is a profound difference between Cyrus and Artaxerxes in giving their decrees. The One is By Hashem, the other is by the prodding of Ezra.
There is even more clarification in Chronicles II 36:
19) They burned the Temple of G-d, broke down the wall of Jerusalem, and burned down all its palaces and destroyed all its precious articles.
20) Those who survived the sword he exiled to Babylonia, where they became slaves to him and his sons, until the kingdom of Persia began to reign.
21) This was in fulfillment of the word of Hashem spoken by Jeremiah, until the land would be appeased of its Sabbatical years – all the years of its desolation it rested, to the completion of seventy years.
22) In the first year of Cyrus king of Persia, upon the expiration of Hashem’s prophecy spoken by Jeremiah, Hashem aroused the spirit of Cyrus king of Persia,and he issued a proclamation throughout his kingdom – and in writing as well – saying:
23) Thus said Cyrus king of Persia: Hashem, G-d of Heaven, has given to me all the kingdoms of the earth, and He has commanded me to build Him a Temple in Jerusalem , which is in Judah. Whoever there is among yo of His entire people – may Hashem his G-d be with him,and let him go up!
The KEY WORDS ABOVE are “fulfillment of word”, “He has commanded me”. In concise terms. Cyrus fulfilled Jeremiah’s word of Hashem and was “commanded” BY Hashem to start building.
Bru
We believe that the Second Temple stood for 420 years since it was destroyed in 70 CE (or 69) and the first Temple was destroyed 70 years before the Second Temple was built so our timeline would run as follows
Going forth of the word (God’s word which points to the destruction of the First Temple as starting point for the seventy year period leading to the restoration) takes place at 422 BCE shortly after 7 weeks (49 years) Cyrus allows the Jews to return this brings us to approximately 375 BCE – 62 weeks later (434 years) the Second Temple is destroyed.
The idea that a prophetic year is 360 days is silly. The years of the Jewish Bible need to coincide with the agricultural cycle which would indicate a conformance to the solar calendar
>>>>We can dispense with all your timelines and computations in the manner of forcing the text to reflect “Your” messiah. Let’s see what G-d and the Bible says on the matter.
My you are totally unfair…I am not trying to fit the timelines…what happens is that they fit history itself supports the data. You think that a prophetic timeline that is given is just to stay there to be ignored…No! it is there to guide us into the truth. I did not give those timelines…if you do not want to use it or believe the prophecy…that is your option…
but to present me as a manipulator of the text, of the truth…is totally a non-truth. I have kept faithful to the truth as presented in the Bible I can read, and I trust that all those more than 60 scholars(do not remember how many), were guided by God so that the English speaking people can have a realible text, as He did for my Spanish Bible that says the same… I know that for many years Daniels timeline were put aside by your people, and I know what they show is not all flattering…But one think it shows that you do Have a Prince and Messiah that cares for you and want you know the truth for what lies ahead…this truth will be revealed to all… but to attack the messenger just because of your own personal believes do not agree with him/her, then it is you who is being unfair…and I dare not say what else!!!
That the decree of 457(documented historically) brings us to 27ad/arrival of Jesus…
with plain mathematics….it is not my fault or manipulation. I am using the decree that completed the plans for the restoration and the timeline is given in the Bible, both starting point and timeline are given….simple mathematics brings us to the ending point as 27ad, and bingo!! there is Jesus…. I am not manipulating anything…
457bc –+69weeks(483yrs)–>27ad/Jesus/Messiah….70ad/abom.des
the following abom.des. in 70ad, after your rejection of the Messiah Jesus, gives further credence to the truth that you rejected the Messiah that was to come…otherwise they will not have taken place…
>>>We do, and I would hope you realize also, that Daniel was contemplating those 70 years spoken of by Jeremiah. He obviously had issues with the 70 years and Hashem’s promise.
Daniel, truth be told, did not understand that prophecy..that is why he was confused,
Notice his place in the timelines….he is smack in the center of the decrees, before him were the 70 years of Babylonian desolation and in front of him was the Post-Babilonian restoration, and he understood neither, because he was not sure how things were going to develop. But God in His mercy show Him His major concern, which was was Israel to be restored and what would be of his people. Truth be told, what Daniel was presented was in His future, not in his past(being Cyrus in His past, already dead).
Babylonian desolation->DANIEL/DECREES<–Post.Babylonian Restoration
you quoted=
<<<return from exiles start/Cyrus/539bc
>>Although both of these 70 year visions foretold the termination of the Babylonian Empire, it was only the second prophecy, 29:10, that spoke of the restoration of the Jewish people to the Promised Land. When Daniel examined these two texts, he thought, incorrectly, that the two 70 years were speaking of an identical period of time.
Both prophecy address the same issues, yet further detail is given with the second one,
which is that the end of the 70 years is the fall of the Roman Empire and end of its oppression/desolation and further detail is add in the second one that “AFTER” the end of this period of Babylonian Desolation, the Jews were to return to their land…
Ok..let me quote the last vision…=
>>>>10) For thus said Hashem: After seventy years for Babylonia have been completed I will attend to you and I will fulfill for you My favorable promise, to return you to this place.
Again, this is the same prophecy with a timeline of 70 years of the Babylonian Empire’s desolation, is repeated to Jeremiah. Its ending point of the timeline of the 70 years is the same, which is the fall of the Babylonian Empire, the end of its power of oppression and desolation….but here the prophecy gives further details relevant to the Jews…something that the initial prophecy had foretold but not with so many details, which is that by the end of the 70 years the Babylonian oppression was to end. What is added in the second prophecy is that that “AFTER” the end of this time period of 70 years(when the Babylonian oppression was to stop), then they were to start returning back to Israel….no more no less..
Babylonian Desolation/70years->end of Babilonian.empire..AFTER/return of exiles
Notice the Biblical promise…is AFTER…this is not an specific time period when they were to return and no details are given as how is this to take place, but certainly soon after the end of the 70 years of Babylonian oppression/desolation…they did return..
>>When Daniel examined these two texts, he thought, incorrectly, that the two 70 years were speaking of an identical period of time. This misunderstanding caused him to draw three flawed conclusions.
Perhaps he did not know all the details…
But if he thought those 70 years mentioned in those two prophecies were the same, he was in fact correct…Pay attention to the starting point of those 70 years in each prophecy,
which was
1st=start-Babylonian/opression/70years->end of it
2nd-start-Babylonian/opression/70years->ends…AFTER return of exiles
I think the problem is with your understanding…
because Jeremiah, in its initial prophecy and later prophecy is saying the same…
which is = speaking of the 70 years of Babylonian oppression and desolation which was to end(Cyrus conquered Babylon at this ending point), and in the second vision he adds that “AFTER the 70 years FOR BABYLON ARE COMPLETED, the the return of exiles is foretold”, …
THE 70 YEARS SPEAKS OF THE TIME OF THE BABYLONIAN EMPIRE, AND ASSOCIATED ABOMINATIONS/DESOLATION AND OPRSSIONS, NOT ONLY OF ISRAEL, CERTAINLY IT DID…BUT ALSO OF MANY OTHER NATIONS=
***”and these nations will serve the king of Babylon for seventy years.”***
That he misunderstood the vision, does not mean that he continue as such..
certainly further details were given to him…which are details about the next stage in the life of the Jewish people, the Post-Babylonian restoration.
Jeremiah’s prophecy did not go into details about this period of the post-Babylonian Restoration…it only says that “AFTER” the end of the 70 years of Babylonian desolation the Jews were to return to Jerusalem.
It was solely to Daniel that was given further details about the Post-Babylonian Restoration of Israel..as Daniel 9 shows…(by the way by this time, Cyrus was already dead, Cyrus although initially spearheading the decrees, did not completed them, did not completed the plans or WORD for the total restoration of Jerusalem and the temple, then Darius participated, and finally this composite decree was finally solidify by Artaxerxes in 457bc)
>>First, that the point to begin counting the 70 years was when Babylon conquered Jerusalem.
I think you are going to run into problems with that date…
because the 70 years include the whole Babylonian oppression,
from 609bc, where it started, to 539bc where Babylon was defeated by Cyrus the MedoPersian king…as such 70 years of Babylonian oppression which is what the prophecy says, certainly it included most importantly his effects in the nation of Israel=
READ WHAT THE FIRST PROPHECY SAYS….=
“and these nations will serve the king of Babylon for seventy years.”
“After seventy years for Babylonia have been completed”
THE 70 YEARS= are the times FOR BABYLON, AND THE NATIONS WILL SERVE THIS EMPIRE FOR 70 YEARS…that is what the prophecy says…so the limits of this time period are the times the Babylonian empire was in power, and its oppression/desolations took place. The starting point of this time period was around 609bc when Babylon let herself in power in the region, and ended at the time of its fall in 539bc=
609bc + 70years–>539bc/fall of Babylon/Cyrus conquers..AFTER jews start return..
>>Second, these prophecies must therefore end 70 years after Jerusalem’s subjugation, when Darius the Mede succeeded the throne.
No…the end of both prophecies (which is in fact one, just more details specifically concerning Israel in the second) is the end of the Babylonian oppression in 539bc, conquered by MedoPersia/Cyrus…
“””After seventy years for Babylonia have been completed”””
“””and these nations will serve the king of Babylon for seventy years.”””
ONCE BABYLON ENDED….THE 70 YEARS ENDED….
>>>Thirdly, because Jeremiah’s second prophecy spoke of G-d restoring Israel after the completion of 70 years. Daniel thus concluded that the second Temple would certainly be built in the first year of Darius the Mede.
You know …you should not paraphrased so much, and better quote the verse in question…where he said or thought what you say…
But let me just say, that whether Daniel understood or not, …God has given a lot of information since then, and we need not make the same mistake (if he did)…because if he thought both prophecies of Jeremiah speak of the same time period of the Babylonian Desolation and oppressive power as lasting 70 years(which I believe you said above) …then let me tell you Daniel was right..the error is not with him…
>>When Daniel realized, 9:1 [In the first year of Darius, son of Achashverosh of the offspring of Media, who was made king…], and there was no sign of redemption, he became deeply perplexed.
So lets find out why was he perplexed, confused…=
1) YES…DARIUS TIMES (CYRUS ALREADY DEAD IN 530BC)
Dan 9:1 In the first year of Darius the son of Ahasuerus, of the seed of the Medes, which was made king over the realm of the Chaldeans;
2) DANIEL THOUGHT THAT THE 70 YEARS WERE FOR THE DESOLATIONS OF ISRAEL, WHICH CERTAINLY WAS DESOLATED DURING THE TIMES OF THE BABYLONIAN EMPIRE (WHICH IS THE TIME OF THE 70 YEARS SPOKEN BY JEREMIAH, AND DANIEL CORRECTLY UNDERSTOOD THIS)
AND ***AFTER*** THIS POINT(THE END OF THE BABYLONIAN EMPIRE’S OPPRESSION), THE RETURN OF EXILES WAS FORETOLD, BUT TRUTH BE TOLD JEREMIAH DID NOT SAY WHEN AND HOW..=.
Dan 9:2 In the first year of his reign I Daniel understood by books the number of the years, whereof the word of the LORD came to Jeremiah the prophet, that he would accomplish seventy years in the desolations of Jerusalem.
3) THEN DANIEL SEEN THAT THE 70 YEARS HAD ENDED (AND PROPERLY UNDERSTOOD, THIS TIME BELONG TO THE BABYLONIAN DESOLATION, NOT QUITE SURE IF HE UNDERSTOOD THE STARTING OR ENDING POINTS, TOO CLOSE TO HIM IT ALL)=..HE THEN SET TO ASK GOD FOR ANSWERS=
Dan 9:3 And I set my face unto the Lord God, to seek by prayer and supplications, with fasting, and sackcloth, and ashes: …
4) DANIEL RECOGNIZES THAT TRANSGRESSION OF ISRAEL AS THE CAUSE OF THE ABOMINATION.DESOLATION THAT HAD BEFALLEN THEIR LAND AND PEOPLE=
Dan 9:10 Neither have we obeyed the voice of the LORD our God, to walk in his laws, which he set before us by his servants the prophets. ..
Dan 9:13 As it is written in the law of Moses, all this evil is come upon us: yet made we not our prayer before the LORD our God, that we might turn from our iniquities, and understand thy truth.
5) DANIEL RECALLS THE GOODNESS OF THE LORD TOWARD HIS PEOPLE, AND DESPITE RECOGNIZING THEIR SIN, HE THEN PLEADS FOR MERCY AND RESTORATION OF THEIR CITY AND TEMPLE=
Dan 9:15 And now, O Lord our God, that hast brought thy people forth out of the land of Egypt with a mighty hand, and hast gotten thee renown, as at this day; we have sinned, we have done wickedly.
Dan 9:16 O Lord, according to all thy righteousness, I beseech thee, let thine anger and thy fury be turned away from thy city Jerusalem, thy holy mountain: because for our sins, and for the iniquities of our fathers, Jerusalem and thy people are become a reproach to all that are about us.
Dan 9:17 Now therefore, O our God, hear the prayer of thy servant, and his supplications, and cause thy face to shine upon thy sanctuary that is desolate, for the Lord’s sake.
6) MERCY FOR THE SAKE OF OWN SAKE…FOR HIS PEOPLE
Dan 9:19 O Lord, hear; O Lord, forgive; O Lord, hearken and do; defer not, for thine own sake, O my God: for thy city and thy people are called by thy name.
7) THE ANSWER TO DANIEL’S PRAYER TAKES PLACE= HE SENDS GABRIEL WITH HIS MESSAGE (THE ANGEL THAT DANIEL HAD SEEN IN THE PREVIOUS VISION GIVEN TO HIM/DANIEL 8)=
Dan 9:20 And whiles I was speaking, and praying, and confessing my sin and the sin of my people Israel, and presenting my supplication before the LORD my God for the holy mountain of my God;
Dan 9:21 Yea, whiles I was speaking in prayer, ****even the man Gabriel, whom I had seen in the vision at the beginning, being caused to fly swiftly, touched me about the time of the evening oblation. ***(HE CALLED AN ANGEL THAT FLIES …THE MAN GABRIEL..INTERESTING…)
8) GABRIEL GIVES DANIEL THE MESSAGE FROM GOD, A MESSAGE THAT IS TO GIVE HIM AN IDEA OF WHAT WAS TO COME ABOUT THE RESTORATION OF HIS PEOPLE AND CITY AND TEMPLE, AS HE WAS ASKING IN THE PRAYER WHICH WAS HIS MAJOR CONCERN…AND ALSO HE IS GOING TO EXPLAIN HIM A VISION THAT HE HAD SEEN PREVIOUSLY(DANIEL 8) AND WHAT IS THE ROLE OF THE JEWISH PEOPLE IN THIS VISION=
Dan 9:22 And he informed me, and talked with me, and said, O Daniel, I am now come forth to give thee skill and understanding.
Dan 9:23 At the beginning of thy supplications the commandment came forth, and I am come to shew thee; for thou art greatly beloved: therefore understand the matter, and consider the vision.
9) HERE IS TOLD THE PROPHECY OF WHAT WAS GOING TO HAPPEN TO THE CITY AND TEMPLE AND THE JEWISH PEOPLE= THIS IS SOLELY ITS FUTURE AS SUCH POST-BABYLONIAN RESTORATION VISION GIVEN IN (522BC), DESPITE PREVIOUS DECREE OF CYRUS, THE CITY AND TEMPLE WAS NOT BEING RESTORED AND THE PEOPLE MOST STILL IN EXILE…THIS WAS THE CONCERN OF DANIEL…WAS WAS TO HAPPEN TO THEM…
THE ANGEL THEN TELLS HIM WAS IS TO HAPPEN TO THEM…THIS SPEAKS OF 70 WEEKS PERIOD OF PROBATION, THE POST-BABYLONIAN RESTORATION AND FUNCTIONING….TO AN EVENTUAL RE-DESOLATION
>>He thought the sins of the people had caused the date to be delayed, or worse, canceled. This thought compelled Daniel to fast and pray (9:4-20) for the restoration of Jerusalem and its Sanctuary. This is when Gabriel comes to give understanding of Jeremiah words.
HAD CAUSED WHAT TO BE DELAY OR CANCELLED?
ANSWER= the return and post Babylonian restoration…
SO WHICH WAS JEREMIAH’S WORDS?= that ***AFTER the end of the 70 years*** of Babylonian oppression, the jews were to return…HE UNDERSTOOD RIGHT…
BOTH PROPHECY SAYS THE SAME…THE RETURN AND RESTORATION TO HAPPEN ***AFTER*** THE 70 YEARS OF BABYLONIAN DESOLATION=
“””After seventy years for Babylonia have been completed”””
“””and these nations will serve the king of Babylon for seventy years.”””
JEREMIAH UNDERSTOOD THAT THE RETURN AND RESTORATION WAS TO TAKE PLACE **AFTER** THE 70 YEARS OF DESOLATION=
“***After seventy years for Babylonia**** have been completed I will attend to you and I will fulfill for you My favorable promise, to return you to this place.
You, know you keep insinuating or outright saying that those 70 years have to do with the restoration and return of the exiles….that is not what says above….above says that IT IS
AFTER the 70 years of Babylon that the return and restoration was to take place…
after is an indefinitive time period, it only means that anytime AFTER this was to take place…
please correct that misconception…becuase it destroys your understanding of Daniel 9.
JEREMIAH/70YEARS/BABYLON->DECREES>>It is in this chapter that Daniel is made to understand that the two prophecies of Jeremiah are in fact not identical, and each one refers to a separate albeit overlapping 70 year period of time.
both prophecy of Jeremiah are the same ..with 70 years for Babylonian oppression/desolation, for the empire to last, except that the last prophecy gives further details about the fact that AFTER the end of Babylon 70 years the restoration and return of exiles was to take place…
IMPORTANT=
there is not overlapping whatsover of the prophecies timelines of Jeremiah and Daniel, =
first the 70 years of /BabylonJeremiah and AFTER the 490years restoration/Daniel
You are not following the biblical record.=
70 years for Babylonian desolation..first….
is not the same
70weeks(490 years) Post-Babylonian restoration after…
NO OVERLAPPING BECAUSE JEREMIAH SAID THAT THESE RESTORATION WAS TO FOLLOWED AFTER THE END OF THE 70 YRS FOR BABYLON…AS SUCH NO OVERLAPPING AS YOU SAID PLEASE READ THE FOLLOWING CAREFULLY, NOTICE THE “AFTER” FOR THE RETURN OF EXILES AND RESTORATION(WHICH DANIEL ADDRESSES IN THE 70WEEKS/490 YEARS PROPHECY)…THE “AFTER” INTRODUCES A SEPARATION BETWEEN THOSE TWO TIMELINES, NOT EVEN OVERLAPPING…=
SEVENTY YEARS FOR BABYLONIA….AFTER THE RETURN AND RESTORATION(POST.BAB)
SEE IT HERE JEREMIAH WROTE=
“***After seventy years for Babylonia**** have been completed I will attend to you and I will fulfill for you My favorable promise, to return you to this place.
>>>While the prophecy of Jeremiah 25:12 was indeed referring to the 70 year span that began when Jerusalem was subjugated the prophecy for the restoration was not to begin for another 18 years.
Why don’t you give dates? how are you to test the timelines given in the prophecy if you do not even mention when in what date they were to start and its end, to see if that fits the prophecy…
The 70 years are for Babylonia so says Jeremiah, certainly his oppression of other nations expand his existence…but the restoration and return are not included during this time period…
THE TIMES FOR BABYLON= history tells us that this empire ascended into power 609bc and ended defeated by the MedoPersian in 539bc…70 years in power, oppresing nations..specially Israel…
609BC + 70 YEARS/BABYLON.DESOLATION–> 539BC/END…..AFTER EXILES RETURN/REN.
The prophecy says that this was to take place AFTER and you keep speaking of overlapping…
why don’t you take the Word of God as it says…and let it lead you?
Why remain in darkness concerning this issue???
here read it again…notice please the AFTER…that is the key word that says that those two timelines are not overlapping…
Jeremiah wrote “***After seventy years for Babylonia have been completed**** I will attend to you and I will fulfill for you My favorable promise, to return you to this place. (quoting what you yourself wrote, your Jewish translation)….
>>>>Therefore Gabriel instructs Daniel that in order to correctly ascertain when the Second Temple would be built he must begin counting the years “from the going forth of the Word (Davar, 9:25), which is the WORD of Jeremiah that begins at the destruction of Jerusalem. Jeremiah’s prophecy of restoration was fulfilled 18 years later than Daniel had envisioned.
That is not what was told to Daniel….why you say so….?
first Jeremiah did not give any WORD TO WHEN THIS TIMELINE OF DANIEL WAS TO START…
Jeremiah only said that **AFTER the end of Babylon***, the Jews were to return…
The prophecy of Daniel does speak for the WORD/COMMAND/DECREE to restore the previously desolated city and temple with power enough to so accomplish….notice the decree/Word for restoration needs to be given by a king that orders that to be done, and this were the MedoPersian kings..Arta/457bc being the decree that tie all the threats for this restoration so that it can be completed…
I see…my oh my… after this…I thing that I am going to give up…
You people do not follow the word…even your own translation says that Jeremiah only said that after this 70 years of Babylon, after it ends….then the return of exiles/renovation was to take place..
JEREMIAH WROTE=”***”After seventy years for Babylonia”have been completed ****I will attend to you and I will fulfill for you My favorable promise, to return you to this place.(JEWISH TRANSLATION)
>>>The angel Gabriel responds to Daniel’s inquiry by carefully outlining the course of events which was to unfold over a crucial period of time that spanned 490 years. The Babylonian exile lasted 70 years and the Second Temple stood for 420 years. Thus, Gabriel not only revealed to Daniel when the Second Temple would be restored but when it would be destroyed as well.
THERE YOU HAVE IT…AGAIN…(you people talk about my repetition…you follow very closely)..
You are saying above, that the babylonian exile and second temple as included in the total timeline of the 490 years….so in fact you are introducing A GAP in the continuous time period of the 70 weeks …..and you have it as such=
70years/babilonian.exile–>…+… = 490 years
Anybody that know a little bit of history…knows that from when the initial exiles(Daniel among them) was somewhere 609bc and 70 years of exile brings you to 539bc…which happens to be the time of duration of the Babylonian Empire (which did its exile in its early year, and ended by the decee of Cyrus the same date of his conquest 539bc)
The temple was in function 420 years according you…I do not know your starting point, but I do know when it ended which was 70ad…so calculating from this information you have the temple starting to be in function= 350bc as the starting point of those 420 years…
609bc539bc(Cyrus/decree)……..350bc 70ad/roman.abom.des.
1) Your idea above introduces a huge gap inside the 490 years of Daniel 9
There is gap in your 70weesk(490 years) between your 70years of exile and 420 years of the temple in action…wow….that breaks the prophetic message of a period of 70weeks(490 years), as a block of time…a period of probation….
2) Your idea above has the temple as barely starting in action at 350 bc…when during the reign of Darius II in the later 400s(450-400) was already in function…
3) You are adding the Babylonian Desolation, the 70 years of Jeremiah as if they
were part of the post babylonian restoration which they were not according to Daniel himself who said that this restoration was to take place AFTER those 70 years are completed…
JEREMIAH WRONTE= “*****AFTER seventy years for Babylonia have been completed*** I will attend to you and I will fulfill for you My favorable promise, to return you to this place.
>>>This has covered Jeremiah. As it turns out we don’t even need Daniel to complete the picture because Ezra has done it for us. Daniel was contemplating Jeremiah and Ezra tells of the fulfillment of Jeremiah. You may dismiss the fact that Cyrus was involved and wasn’t even alive but Ezra disputes your claim.
Well.. your presentation about Jeremiah is in error…
so let us find out what Ezra said….
And you do not need to listen to Daniel?…. why? after all he was the one that gives the details of the timeline he was given of the 490 years…!!!
ok…this is EZRA…quoting Cyrus initial decree for the reconstruction of the temple and return fo exiles..in his first year(539 decree)= nobody has denied this decree…
but this decree marks THE ENDING POINT of the 70 years of Babylon (the desolation), because Cyrus both defeated Babylon ending his period of dominion, and also soon after gave the order for the return of the exiles…and reconstruction of the temple..
an nobody has denied that he spareheaded the renovation with his first decree…
IMPORTANT =
As I see it the issue in question is which word/order/decree of the 3 given(Cyrus/539bc, Darius/521bc and Arta/457bc) is the one alluded as the starting point in Daniel’s timeline of the 490 years(70 weeks). Being this 70 weeks a time of probation, a period of the 490 years, during which an initial restoration was to take place and functioning of the city and temple, and during which its Messiah was to come during its last or 70th week)….
as you see it…its very complex, you have the initiation of the 490 years of restoration/functioning and time of probation as if starting with the beginning of the Babylonian desolation and exile, which brings problems…you cannot mix those two time periods as being part of the 490 years(70weeks) those 70 weeks are SOLELY a time of probation/mercy, as such the exile/judgment during Babylonian times cannot be part of this timeline OF THE 70WEEKS(490 YEARS).
Keep in mind that Daniel is told that those 70 weeks positive things are going to happen for His people, restoration, functioning…These 70 weeks, 490 years, is a period of restoration, mercy, of opportunity and probation.. as such no judgments or exiles, or diaspora, was to take place in any part of those 490 years(whether at the beginning as you have it or at the end as some other have it)…….in fact the abom.desolation has to happen outside this time period. of probation..and it does….as this=
Bab.exile/abom.des/70yrs–>decrees…..abom.des
605-538ad/BABYLONIAN ABOM.DESOLATION= outside the 70 weeks/490 years of mercy
70ad/ROMAN ABOMINATION DESOLATION= outside the 70weeks/490 years of probation
CYRUS DECREE= 539BC, AS ENDING THE BABYLONIAN EXILE/DESOLATION…
AND SPEARHEADING ITS RESTORATION…(BUT ONLY PARTIALLY…many issues needed to be taken in consideration in the following decrees of Darius/519bc and Artaxerxes/457bc…it is the last decree which completed all the plans for the restoration for Jerusalem/Israel going back to be a nation under God..
Ezra 1:
1) In the FIRST year of Cyrus king of Persia, upon the conclusion [you can also read fulfillment] of Hashem’s prophecy by the mouth of Jeremiah, Hashem aroused the spirit of Cyrus king of Persia, and he issued a proclamation throughout his kingdom – and in writing as well, saying:
2) Thus said Cyrus king of Persia: All the kingdoms of the earth has Hashem,G-d of heaven, given to me and HE has commanded me to build Him a Temple in Jerusalem,which is in Judah.
3) Whoever is among you of His entire people – may his G-d be with him – and let him go up to Jerusalem which is in Judah and build the Temple of Hashem, G-d of Israel – He is the G-d! – which is in Jerusalem.
4) And whosoever remains, in whatever place he dwells , let the inhabitants of that place bestow upon him gifts of silver and gold, of valuables and of animals; together with the contribution for the Temple of G-d which is in Jerusalem.
You know you quote a lot of prophecy…but you fail in understanding what is it relation to the timelines, and therefore its understanding …simply because you do not work with the starting points and ending points/dates of this timelines…this in turn lends itself to erroneous understanding ….
All the prophecy have fulfillment…all those that you quote…the issues is when and how, and where…and many other questions that need to be answer. we need not misapply a prophecy dealing with an specific timeline and then use it as if it fulfills another timeline…that is an error..
The truth is that the Babylonian Desolation timeline/70 yrs is not included as part of the Post-Babylonian Restoration/490yrs as you do…
A period of 70weeks(490 years) of Daniel 9, described as a period of restoration/mercy/probation, cannot have in its midst a period of desolation like it was the 70 years of the Babylonian deportation and judgments.. that is not possible…and you put them as being part of the 490 years…no no no….
>>>Now, to say Cyrus wasn’t involved would be calling Ezra a liar.
That somebody spearheaded something does not mean that he was part of it…
Cyrus was dead when the vision of Daniel 9 was given…
the vision of Daniel 9 spoke of a Messiah to come…Cyrus cannot come he was already dead…
yet, in order to get Cyrus in the picture, you include the 70 years Babylonian abomination.desolation as part of the 490 years, which is defined in Daniel as a period of restoration, mercy and probation….of goodness towards Israel…certain AFTER the end of this 70 weeks(483 years) period of mercy and restoration, …AFTER…AFTER.. the abomination.desolation again took place because for some reason or another the judgments came in 70 ad…THE ROMAN ABOM.DES.
You cannot include the times of the Babylonian or Roman Abom.Desolation as if being included in the times of the 490 years of restoration, functioning and blessings for your people….that is not logical nor possible not told…
That a prophecy has a fulfillment…does not mean that you have to mix them up…
I think …no sense in going further…
You have shown a 490 years, with a huge gap….not told in the prophecy as such…
You have shown not understanding what it means 490 years of functioning and restoration, or mercy/probation….by introducing in their midst periods of desolations as if they were part of that timeline…no no no….that is not possible….
THE 70 WEEKS AS A PERIOD OF MERCY/KINDNESS AND PROBATION FOR ISRAEL ARE DEFINED HERE….NO WHERE SPEAKS OF ABOM.DES.(WHETHER BABYLONIAN OR ROMAN) AS PART OF IT=
Dan 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.
It’s not really unfair since you have stipulated that we Have to use the 457 date because that gets us to “The Messiah”. I would say, rather, it is unfair for you to request the Jewish translation of Daniel and then say you are going to rely and trust a translation of those 60 or more scholars. You “assume” they are guided by G-d yet, evidently, your translation is misleading and inaccurate. Are you telling me they were accurate in their translation when they use “The Messiah” when in every other instance they use anointed, Or when they translate ( ואין לו ) as being “not for himself”, Or when they translate (דבר ) as being commandment, Or when they translate (להשיב) as being restore. In all these cases those translated words has influenced your reading into the text a meaning that doesn’t agree with the actual Hebrew words. I realize you don’t understand Hebrew and unwittingly assume it is inconsequential. But the Hebrew IS consequential. It literally changes the text. We have to remember that “words mean things”. The choice of words we use can easily reflect what is being conveyed. It is even More So with Hebrew. Hebrew is unique in that it is a construct language. We can take a Hebrew word and dissect it and understand the actual Essence of the thing. For this reason it is called Lashon Kodesh, the Holy Tongue [Language].
To the point of the timeline, Again. I say it is inconsequential while you believe it is consequential because of the “Starting Point”. Everything that has been written is in reference to That timeline. To begin with we know that Daniel is contemplating G-d’s word to Jeremiah. We can realize that these events are the desire of G-d and what His words are matters most. Instead of us calculating dates we have to listen to Him and what He says in this regard. If He says something related to this matter we need to heed His words. What does Isaiah say in regards to Hashem’s words.
Isaiah 44:28 (Cyrus will reflect in his decree these words)
“Who says of Cyrus , He is My shepherd, He will fulfill all My desires, to say of Jerusalem, It shall be built, and of the Temple, it shall be established.
Isaiah 45:1 (His Mashiach)
“Thus said Hashem to His anointed one, to Cyrus, whose right hand I have grasped, to subdue nations before him, that I might loosen the loins of kings, to open doors before him, and gateways not be shut”
Isaiah 45:13 (Again speaking of Cyrus)
I aroused [Cyrus ] with righteousness and smoothed out all his paths; he will build My city and set My exiles free, not with a price and not with a bribe, said Hashem, Master of Legions.
With these references and with those in Ezra and Chronicles it is compelling evidence that it is Cyrus who is credited with Daniel. Cyrus is undoubtedly the anointed prince as bestowed by G-d Himself and Daniel speaks of this anointed prince. Even Josephus reconciled it to be Cyrus. You may believe it has to do with dates associated with Artaxerxes but the Bible and G-d Himself says otherwise. There is no disputing this. You can rely on “mathematics” but for me, I will rely upon what G-d says.
Going back to Jeremiah: It is disingenuous to assert that since there are two places that mentions 70 years that therefore they are the same. Even your own KJV, as seen online, shows a distinction between the two. As it says in Jeremiah
29:10 AFTER seventy years for Babylonia have been COMPLETED I will attend to you and I will fulfill for you My favorable promise, to return you to this place.
Whereas in 25: it does not mention the return
11 This entire land shall be a ruin and desolation , and these nations will serve the king of Babylonia for seventy years.
12 Then upon completion of seventy years, I shall make an account of their sin for the king of Babylonia and for that nation.
I’ve noticed in a number of instances you have used the term “probation”. Where does That come from. Certainly not from anything written.
The Rabbi had given the link to ascertain the appropriate dates, which are:
Nebuchadnezzar 3320 – 3365 439 – 394 BCE
Evil-Merodach 3365 – 3388 394 – 371 BCE
Belshazzar 3388 – 3390 371 – 369 BCE
Darius the Mede 3390 – 369 BCE
Cyrus 3390 – 3393 369 – 366 BCE
Ahasuerus 3393 – 3407 366 – 352 BCE
Darius the Persian 3407 – 3442 352 – 317 BCE
Alexander 3442 – 3448 317- 311 BCE
It is noteworthy that the Greeks determined most of the secular dating and they weren’t aware that Artaxerxes was a “Title” used by all kings of Persia and Meia (Arta-Khshatra – Fit for the Kingdom). They labeled Ahasuerus-Artaxerxes as “Artaxerxes II” and placed him more than a century after his real time.
The accepted Persian chronology is based almost entirely upon the works of Greek historians who lived between nineteen and twenty-three centuries ago. One of the main sources is the “father of history,” Herodotus. Historians in those days got their facts primarily by visiting the lands about which they were writing and recording the folk traditions of the inhabitants. This method may have been the only one available at the time, but it hardly guarantees accuracy. Herodotus admits to having heard four different stories about Cyrus the Great-his upbringing and rise to power — choosing to record only the one which seemed to him the most likely. Other Greek historians, such as Ctesias and Xenophon, often disagreed with Herodotus’s choice of story. The Greek historians in general were considered highly unreliable by their Roman colleagues. They even condemned one another as liars and frauds.
Therefore with all the ambiguity of history how can you determine who, what and when. It is nearly impossible and all one gets is hopeful results. What one should do is rely on what G-d and the Bible say and nothing else. Can you be sure of the dates regarding Jsus. The dates you have chosen aren’t the same as others have used.
Bru, I think I realize what’s going on. As Sharbano pointed out, you are using the historical methods inherited from Greeks like Herodotus, that lead you to your conclusion. While extra biblical sources and studying history may lead you to your conclusion, consider historiography.
Jews are trusting the Hebrew language, (their language, historical, traditional, and cultural standpoint,) in the bible, and a biblically mandated lunar calander. As such, their conclusions are understandably different than yours.
Historiography is important as it shows us what’s going on here. We have two very different cultures that record and examine history in two very different ways with different emphases. You cannot expect a Jewish document to accord perfectly with western Greek historical methodology that is based on very different assumptions about the world.
What’s going on here is no different than what was happening in 2012 with westerners reading the ancient Maya calander. Westerners saw the calander and predicting, “the end of time,” While the actual descendants of the maya people said, “hey guys, that’s not what it means in our culture at all.”
yourphariseefriend says:
May 6, 2015 at 4:58 pm
>>>Bru, We believe that the Second Temple stood for 420 years since it was destroyed in 70 CE (or 69) and the first Temple was destroyed 70 years before the Second Temple was built so our timeline would run as follows
Not so fast….you are speaking of different ending and starting points for the biblical timelines…that the ones given in the prophecy. Although the first temple destruction was included in the 70 yrs prophecy, the timeline of the 70 years by being called the times of Babylon, by Jeremiah himself, this includes also the initial exiles and follow up exiles and later temple/city destruction all that is included in what Babylon did against Israel and other nations…so the prophecy says…as such the 70 years timeline=
JEREMIAH wrote “***After seventy years for Babylonia have been completed**** I will attend to you and I will fulfill for you My favorable promise, to return you to this place. (quoting what you yourself wrote, your Jewish translation)….
THE 70 YEARS= **ARE FOR BABYLON**, is the time allotted to Babylon to desolate and oppress, exiles and do everything else. And Babylon became an empire around 609bc(around there the first set of Jewish exiles took place) and found its ending point in the hands of Cyrus in 539bc, that same year Cyrus decree the return of the people, and the reconstruction of the destroyed Jewish temple… f
609bc(first exiles/to Bab)–+70years–>539bc/end of Babylon/Cyrus…AFTER EXILES RETURN
The same prophecy says that the restoration and return of exiles, was to FOLLOW AFTER those 70 years…not within the timeline …but outside the 70 years timeline…
Ok…lets see what you are saying….
Daniel’s 70weeks (490yrs), you say that it includes the times of the Old destroyed 1st temple(abom.des) plus the times of the rebuilt temple….as such the 490 yrs(70 weeks), you say that it included=
1) the 70 years/Babylon times= 609bc to 539bc (the old 1st temple destroyed during the Bab. Empire times)
2) plus the 420 years of the rebuilt 2nd temple= 350bc/starts to 70 ad/end temple
above= we can see obvious errors=
A)
error- you have a period of desolation of the first temple as part of the 490 years of mercy/probation which is what Daniel’s 70weeks(490 years) is all about…how can that be possible? One cannot mix a period of time given as restoration/probation and then call part of it as if it were abomination.desolation….a great error indeed.
In fact all the 70weeks/490yrs were a time alloted for restoration/probation, during the times of the restore 2nd temple and city…(not to include a period of 70 years of abomination.desolation…that is a no no….and not to include the Roman desolation either…
Probationary times/490yrs/70weeks = do not include judgment times…(not Babylonian and not Roman)….
Those 490 years of Daniel’s prophecy speak of a period of probation/mercy when no judgments are part of it, and then you come an stick 70 years of the Babylonian abomination.desolation, and associated destroyed 1st temple as part of it…???
that is illogical…
B)
error= you are in fact breaking a continuous timeline of 490years(70 weeks) into two parts, which are separated by a huge gap….when we have agreed that that 70weeks/490yrs time period is a single block of time….why the change?
You have described as a fact= the division of the continuous timeline of 490 years(70weeks) timeline into 2 periods separated by a gap of close to ~200 years, periods which are according to you=
a)Babylonian desolation/destroyed 1st temple (609bc to 539bc= 70 years)
and then a huge gap= 549bc to 350ad
b) and then the rebuilt 2n Temple during 420 years (from 350bc to 70ad= 420 years)
then saying that a+b = 490 years are the ones spoken of in Daniel 9…when in fact those 490 yrs are a block of time (a continuous time period) the opposite of what you say……
yet your idea introduces such a huge gap in between, that is an error, and its total time gives a much larger number…. ..
TWO WRONG TIME PERIOD FOR THE 490 YEARS AND A HUGE GAP IN BETWEEN=
BAB/70yrs/1st.temple/DESTROY>–gap—–539BC>—-GAP~200yrs–70ad= 490 yrs
C)
The division of yours of these 70 weeks/490yrs into two periods of “70yrs and 420 yrs” described above is un-natural (that is it does not follows the prophetic details, as foretold by Daniel),
i) you have it as 2 separated time periods=
as ( 70yrs ) gap/~200yrs + (420yrs) = as if this were 490yrs(70weeks)
ii) while Daniel divided them into 3 consecutive time periods as =
7weeks(49yrs) + 62weeks + 1 week = 70weeks= 490years
D)
YOU HAVE AN ABOMINATED/DESTROYED 1ST TEMPLE AND REBUILT 2ND TEMPLE, AS ALL INHABITING THE 70WEEKS/490 YEARS TIMELINE OF DANIEL…
error= the idea that “the destroyed 1st temple”/babylonian times, and “the new rebuilt 2nd temple” are included in the 490 years timeline is an error…
the truth= the 490 years timeline addresses the times of the 2nd temple solely, from the decree/word/order/mandate given for its restoration/reconstruction restoration… until its later times..
E)
error= you say that the ending point of the time period of the 490yrs /70weeks is the re-abomination.desolation of the rebuilt 2nd temple in 70ad
i)
truth= the 70 weeks is told from the start to be a period of probation, =
Dan 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city,
ii)
=and its starting point is given as the decree to restore the city (decrees given after the Babylonian desolation, not at the beginning or in its midst) decree given as the last decree of 457bc=
Dan 9:25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem
iii)
=and its ending point is told to relate to the Messiah’s last week/70th week, the end point of His confirmation of the New Covenant being the end of the 70th week…which is the end of the 70weeks probation/34ad, for the decree of 457bc…) =
Dan 9:25 ….. unto the Messiah the Prince
Dan 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week(70th):
F)
error= to reject the idea that those 70weeks (490 years) were for the Post-Babylonian probation of Israel (457bc to 34ad) …starting from the decree of 457bc to end in 34ad…
when the history of Israel itself have the nation and temple functioning during this time period, as foretold and…when… its later abomination.desolation/70ad speaks volumes that this time of probation had ended by this point…
G)
error= to include “abominations desolation” in the midst of 70 weeks(490 years) which is the opposite it is a period of probation/mercy/rebuilding… (the dead time periods of the Babylonian dor of Roman Desolations are not part of this time period…)
truth= the 490 years timeline is the time of probation, mercy..therefore cannot include in its midst the Babylonian or Roman desolations …as you do…
H)
error= to think that Jeremiah gave the word/command/decree for the restoration of the city and temple, when he only said that it was to take place “AFTER the 70 years of Babylonia”…
truth= it is an error to assume that Jeremiah had anything to do with giving the orders to re-start the rebuilding of the city and temple when what he did was only to mentioned that it was to take place “AFTER” the fall of Babylon, which is a nonspecific time period, and it is not a command to get things moving…
Seems…there is some problem with the understanding of what is “a Word”, in this case, the word is going to send people to get something going…to get something accomplished….as such that word in fact is a command, a decree, a mandate…. and order.. just because Jeremiah said that it was to happen “after” the babylonian desolation…..that does not mark any point in time…and that does not send anybody to start rebuilding…
A WORD THAT INITIATES AN ACTION IN OTHERS….IS A COMMAND…A DECREE…
“AFTER” …IS NOT SPECIFIC….
A DECLARATION OR STATEMENT…IS NOT A COMMAND, DOES NOT GET THINGS MOVING…
JUST BECAUSE I SAY “TOMORROW IS GOING TO RAIN”…DOES NOT MEAN THAT I GOT THE CLOUDS TO SEND RAIN….
i)
an error= to not take in consideration the historical linear relationships…
Notice below, this historical relationship immediately below…and notice the order of historical events,
a)first the Babylonian Desolation/70yrs,
b)then the decrees,
c) and finally the restoration, functioning and mercy towards the city and people during /490 years….
Then listen to Daniel below… and tell me from which point He is talking about..
I tell you…=
x) the timeline is established, for the people and holy city…their probation…
Dan 9:24
Seventy weeks(490 YEARS) are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city,
y) then the starting point = as the completed decree…457bc
So who gave the commandments/decree/word, if not a king with powers to do so…?
It was by the last MedoPersian decree/Word/commandment that the plans for the total restoration were finalized by 457bc…as such this is the decree in question…
Dan 9:25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem
z) then the ending time period is given..the last week for the Messiah, the ending point of this week being the end of confirmation of the New Covenant in 34ad..
Dan. 9:25….unto the Messiah the Prince
Dan 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week:
J)
error= to think that Cyrus was the Messiah to come, when he was already dead when this prophecy of Daniel 9 was given in 522bc, prophecy that spoke of a future Messiah to come… many years into the future….
K)
=error= to think that Jeremiahs/Zacharias prophecies (solely about the destruction of the 1st temple, starting and ending points) are the same as Daniel’s 9 prophecy (about the probationary period/mercy during the reconstructed 2nd temple, from starting point of the decree for its restoration to the ending point as the last moment of probation, when the Messiah gives the last message of confirmation, in 34ad), the destruction of the city and temple to follow AFTER…
Because they are not…
Jeremiah/Zachariah= 70 yrs of Babylonian Desolation
Daniel’9 – = 70weeks/490years= of Post-Babylonian Restoration/Probation/Mercy…
>>>Going forth of the word (God’s word which points to the destruction of the First Temple as starting point for the seventy year period leading to the restoration) takes place at 422 BCE shortly after 7 weeks (49 years) Cyrus allows the Jews to return this brings us to approximately 375 BCE – 62 weeks later (434 years) the Second Temple is destroyed.
That is so confusing…how you people can understand the prophetic messages and two independant timelines……when you are mixing two prophecies…=
1) THE BABYLONIAN ABOMINATION-DESOLATION/BY JEREMIAH/ZACHARIAH….
Jeremiah/Zachariah’s Prophecies = are the ones that gave the timeline, duration, of the 70 years period of the Babylonian oppression/desolation, he clearly described as the ‘”times of Babylon”…as the time Babylon from its inception as an empire started the oppression, starting with to exile God’s people in 609 bc. and for the next 70 years abominated and desolated the land of Israel, its people, temple and city…This time period, starting and ending points are totally attached to the time of Babylon as the prophecy of Jeremiah himself says=
Jeremiah wrote “***After seventy years for Babylonia**** have been completed I will attend to you and I will fulfill for you My favorable promise, to return you to this place……
notice = the 70 years were the times of Babylon, the times of the Babylonian Abomination Desolation….after this period, then the exiles were to return…
2) DANIEL 9 prophecy has nothing to do with the 70 years of the Babylonian Abomination Desolation as you included as part of this time period. Actually when this prophecy was given, this abomination desolation of Babylon and the Cyrus as the ending point of this time period…all were in the past…
why be stuck in the past…
why give a prophecy about a past history? that does not make sense…
To say that Cyrus was the Messiah to come in Daniel 9…is is the biggest error anybody can make..
the truth is that Cyrus was already dead when this prophecy was given to Daniel…this means that Cyrus was not the Messiah to come..
Daniel 9 prophecies deals with the next period of restoration and probation for the nation of Israel, during which the temple and city were to be rebuilt and active…until the times of the Messiah
457bc + 69weeks–>-70th/X.->34ad(end 70wks/end probation)
abominations.desolations by the Romans…outside this period of probation/mercy…
but certainly did followed shortly afterwards…
Bru
You spend too much time writing. Please try to understand what I am saying before responding to me.
Since we are looking at the world from completely different angles – there are many differences between us and it would be difficult for us to interact before you understand those differences.
Since your writing style is so lengthy I will limit myself to trying to explain just one misunderstanding. I do not accept the conventional chronology. I believe that the First Temple was destroyed approximately 422 BCE Cyrus allowed the Jews to return at about 369 BCE and the Second Temple was destroyed around 69 CE. The seventy weeks of Daniel begin at 422 BCE and end with 69 BCE.
Please follow this link to understand what I am saying as it relates to the timing – http://www.starways.net/lisa/essays/heifetzfix.html
This has nothing to do with the interpretation of Daniel 9 – this is just a difference of opinion about the timeline of history.
I will address the interpretation of the passage – one detail at a time – hopefully next week
Thanks
To say that Cyrus was the Messiah to come in Daniel 9…is is the biggest error anybody can make..
Scripture itself makes this statement Bru in Isaiah 45:1 and 45:13 Your problem is with the Torah text’s given chronology of events, and it’s own dating.
CONCERNED..YOU WROTE
>>>””You cannot expect a Jewish document to accord perfectly with western Greek historical methodology that is based on very different assumptions about the world.””
Friend, time is the same for Greeks and Jews….
When you have a Jewish person, giving a timeline, and then not considering the total duration, starting and ending points to support what they are saying…
simply there is something wrong with your Jewish method…actually is not method at all..
when they overlap timelines that do not overlap…
when they say somebody is coming…when he is already dead….
there is something wrong with that methodology…
when somebody breaks a continuous timeline and introduces a nonexistent gap of time..
there is something wrong with that methodology…
when they do not listen to what the prophecy is saying, but says something else that what it is written there….then there is a problem with that methodology…
when they paraphrased everything…
there is problem with that methodology…
when WORD, is not understood by what is to accomplish…a command a decree…an order…
then there is something wrong with that methodology…
Let me just say something…the message of Daniel 9 is simple….
it is a continuous time period, that bring us from one point to the other…
In fact identifies Jesus as the Messiah…he was to come before the abomination desolation of 70ad, and as such He did…He was to be rejected by his own…and as such most of you do so…
My concern is that this is not time no waste…
the Antichrist is knocking at the door, and what follows is doom…
the spiritual Antichrist is going to personate the coming of your Messiah, and if you do not know the real Messiah you are going to fall for it…under his deceptions…
BY THE WAY…IF THAT “MESSIAH” ENDORSES SUNDAY AS IT WERE THE SABBATH…DO NOT ACCEPT HIM…IS THE WRONG ONE…
Just imagine all you Jewish people seeing an angelic being declaring himself to be your much awaited Messiah (when Daniel 9 says that He came before 70ad/abom.des)..what would you do…?
What if I am right, the decree is the one of 457BC, and that 483years later(69weeks) was going to bring you to your Messiah as coming in 27ad…as simple as that…
what if I am right…and Jesus is the only way to be saved…
will you be with Abraham, Jacob and Isaac and all other of your people in the heavenly Canaan?
what about eternity with God…?
Many of you…have being awaiting still for the coming of the Messiah…for several thousand years now…don’t you think it is strange that He has not come yet(according to you) or that if He came (and nobody knew about it at the time)…Strange that nobody knew His name..
Strange He did not accomplish what He was to accomplish..not even an explanation about it…..
and yet He was to accomplish so much….
I had never discussed this theme with Jews before..
I must say has been an honor, I really appreciate the respect for the most part…
and I apologize for any thing I might have said out of place…
I realize we are all humans, and both of us christians and Jews have made mistakes…
But believe Jesus is coming back again…and I want to you to be part of the welcoming bride…
But…any way…I still have to study the translation of Daniel 9 brought by Shardano (he really took His time to do so, and I appreciate it) before I give up…which will be soon…
I am one and you are many…and I am exhausted…
“My concern is that this is not time no waste…
the Antichrist is knocking at the door, and what follows is doom…
the spiritual Antichrist is going to personate the coming of your Messiah, and if you do not know the real Messiah you are going to fall for it…under his deceptions…”
…..If we don’t idol worship the imposter “J” as g-d we might be tricked by his “J’s” imposter? Nah!!……. …what if you’re wrong…and Jesus is the not the way to be saved…
will you be with Jesus Mary and Joseph, and all other of your people in the heavenly Canaan?
what about eternity with God…?
You make a valid point….
But my Jesus came when He was suppose to=
decree/457BC +69weeks->27ad/the Messiah arrives…
and you are still awaiting for your Messiah (or if he came he did not make a whimp)…
He was also there just before the abomination.desolation of the rebuilt temple foretold in Dan. 9…in which it is told first come the Messiah…then the destruction of your temple…
and as such did Jesus right on time!!
Which also agrees with what your prophet Haggai said about the Desire of Nations whose glory was to filled your house….the 2nd temple, now destroyed….
Hag 2:7 And I will shake all nations, and the desire of all nations shall come: and I will fill this house(2ND TEMPLE) with glory, saith the LORD of hosts.
In top of that the destruction of the city and the 2nd temple, once again…
speaks of some reasons for it…that perhaps Jews should try to find out…
what happened in the previous decades, the led to the abomination desolation, once again…this time by the Romans…? Perhaps finding out, what had Israel done that led to the destruction of the first temple…will give an idea of what happened that led to the destruction of the second temple…
Any way….that is past…
There still a blessing ahead for those that accept the atoning blood of Your Messiah…
I sharing this… because the Antichrist Papal Rome…as the continuation of the Roman Empire, it is coming your way sponsoring for a National Law of Sunday (the false Sabbath) as the day of rest…. If you do not believe me…search information in the internet…already going strong in Argentina…and other nations…being pushed by European Parliament…..and sponsored by countless catholic nations and allies, and conquered muslim nations(aided by USA, Papal Rome’s front-man)…
this law will affect those that keep the 7th day Sabbath and will result in their persecution… In the prophetic message Papal Rome is told to have for His Mark, Sunday…and that much they admit….
that is the Mark of the Antichrist, a one way ticket to eternal damnation….do not accept it….
keep faithful to the law of God…and He will guide you into the further revelation…
The Spiritual Antichrist is to personate the true one and endorse Sunday the false sabbath….
how you will know who is which…
the one that upholds the law of God, which endorses the 7th day Sabbath of Rest…
that is the true Christ/the true Messiah….
I fear for you Jews, because your suffering are barely starting….
and we(believers on the 7th day Sabbath as the sign of God for His people/Eze. 20:20) are going to be going in the same direction…as such not much to expect from this world…
but there is the kingdom of God to be ours at the return of yours and mind Messiah…
Despite our lot here on earth…that eternity is worth to have it…
This antichrist in your Christian bible claims he is G-d and exalts himself over all that is called G-d, (according 2 Thessalonians & the book of revelation.) As far as I know, You Christians are the only ones (along with the polytheists) attributing deity and divine attributes to something that breathed G-d’s air, and walked on G-d’s earth.
STOP PRAYING TO WHAT YOU BELIEVE IS A DIVINE MANIFESTATION, AND YOU WILL HAVE HEEDED YOUR OWN ADVICE!
I CAN ASSURE YOU WITH THE UTMOST ASSURANCE, THAT JEWS COULD NEVER FALL FOR A MAN THAT CLAIMS HE IS G-D, or a manifestation of G-d. THEY DIDNT FALL FOR IT 2000 years ago, they won’t 2000 years from now.
THE PREMISE THAT ANYTHING THAT APPEARS PHYSICALLY IS G-D IS RIDICULOUS TO JEWS AS YOU CAN PLAINLY SEE BY THEIR REFUSAL TO BELIEVE IN YOUR CHRISTIAN CLAIMS ABOUT JESUS. JEWS ALSO SEE NO RELEVANCE TO SUNDAY, SO YOUR EXHORTATIONS TO THEM ARE THOROUGHLY MOOT.
Judaism fully knows that G-d is G-d, and man is man. Jews do not place trust in miracles, or in the son of man in whom there is no help. G-d alone is their trust. YOU ARE THE ONE TELLING THEM TO PLACE TRUST IN MIRACLES, FORETOLD TIMES, ETC.
HAVE YOU EVER CONSIDERED THAT EVEN IF HYPOTHETICALLY JESUS WAS A MESSIANIC FIGURE THAT JEWS ARE STILL CORRECT AND ON SOLID GROUND BECAUSE THEY TRUST THE FATHER AND HIS COMMANDS ALONE AND NOT MIRACLES OR CLAIMS BY MEN TO DIVINITY?
I am not saying that Jesus is a man that claimed divinity….
I am saying that Jesus is God that became man…
how is this possible..it is beyond me…apparently from long ago…
Because already in your own prophecy of Dan. 7 we see the Son of Man, a second being than God…being crowned by God, and given the kingdom…by God Himself doing this…and serve and worship by HIs people. We also see an specific Angel of the Lord receiving worship and accepting it….
see an “US” during the time of creation in Gen. 1.
Gen 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image,
Dan 7:13 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.
Dan 7:14 And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.
People, yes God is one…and we are told He is one with God…
But you Jews, if you study your scriptures…you cannot deny that there is shown a second being, who is worship as God, and who is shown in some visions…like Daniel 7 that we are mentioned….likely this has puzzle your mind… But truth be told He being one with God,
we are not to have another God..
BRU, CONSIDER DANIEL 10 carefully. Daniel is troubled by the vision in chapter so a messenger EXPLAINS IT TO HIM!
Con, I’m enjoying reading your comments but I think there is something wrong with your CAPS LOCK key :).
Yes..those are angelic explanations of what was in the future of that point in time…
(certainly is not referring to Cyrus, who was dead already at that point in time…)
What you are forgetting…is the God can become man…
and consider these verses= notice the Son of Man in heaven…that is the incarnate God, the Messiah…whom this day I am sharing with you=
Dan 7:13-14,27 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him. And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed. And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him.
Here…we go with Daniel 10=
1) FIRST CONSIDER THE DATE…REFERING 3RD YEAR OF CYRUS….AS A PREVIOUS EVENT… NOTICE AT THAT TIME HE UNDERSTOOD THE VISION=
Dan 10:1 In the third year of Cyrus king of Persia a thing was revealed unto Daniel, whose name was called Belteshazzar; and the thing was true, but the time appointed was long: and he understood the thing, and had understanding of the vision.
2) NOTICE HE IS TELLING SOMETHING THAT HAPPENED TO HIM IN THE PAST
Dan 10:2 In those days I Daniel was mourning three full weeks.
Dan 10:3 I ate no pleasant bread, neither came flesh nor wine in my mouth, neither did I anoint myself at all, till three whole weeks were fulfilled.
3) AT THAT TIME HE HAS A VISION OF AN ANGEL VISIT=
Dan 10:4 And in the four and twentieth day of the first month, as I was by the side of the great river, which is Hiddekel;
Dan 10:5 Then I lifted up mine eyes, and looked, and behold a certain man clothed in linen, whose loins were girded with fine gold of Uphaz:
Dan 10:6 His body also was like the beryl, and his face as the appearance of lightning, and his eyes as lamps of fire, and his arms and his feet like in colour to polished brass, and the voice of his words like the voice of a multitude.
4) ONLY DANIEL WITNESS THE VISION AND WAS WEAKENED=
Dan 10:7 And I Daniel alone saw the vision: for the men that were with me saw not the vision; but a great quaking fell upon them, so that they fled to hide themselves.
Dan 10:8 Therefore I was left alone, and saw this great vision, and there remained no strength in me: for my comeliness was turned in me into corruption, and I retained no strength.
Dan 10:9 Yet heard I the voice of his words: and when I heard the voice of his words, then was I in a deep sleep on my face, and my face toward the ground.
5) THE ANGEL TOUCHED HIM AND WOKE HIM UP=
Dan 10:10 And, behold, an hand touched me, which set me upon my knees and upon the palms of my hands.
6) HE BRINGS UNDERSTANDING TO DANIEL..SEND BY GOD FROM THE BEGINNING OF HIS PRAYERS IN WHICH HE WANTED UNDERSTANDING=
Dan 10:11 And he said unto me, O Daniel, a man greatly beloved, understand the words that I speak unto thee, and stand upright: for unto thee am I now sent. And when he had spoken this word unto me, I stood trembling.
Dan 10:12 Then said he unto me, Fear not, Daniel: for from the first day that thou didst set thine heart to understand, and to chasten thyself before thy God, thy words were heard, and I am come for thy words.
7) IMPORTANT= THE VISION IS ABOUT FUTURE EVENTS FROM THAT DATE WHICH IS MEDOPERSIAN TIMES , DOES NOT INCLUDE THE PREVIOUS BABYLONIAN DESOLATION=
Dan 10:14 Now I am come to make thee understand what shall befall thy people in the latter days: for yet the vision is for many days.
8) THE ANGEL COULD NOT COME RIGHT AWAY BECAUSE THE PRINCE OF PERSIA(LIKELY THE EVIL ANGEL IN CHARGE OF PERSIA) FOUGHT WITH HIM.
BUT MICHAEL YOUR PRINCE (THIS IS THE PRE-INCARNATE JESUS)
Dan 10:13 But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me one and twenty days: but, lo, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me; and I remained there with the kings of Persia.
9) THE VISION TOTALLY DEALS WITH FUTURE EVENTS FROM THAT POINT IN TIME WHEN WAS GIVEN, IN THIS CASE CYRUS 3RD YEAR(STILL ALIVE AT THIS POINT, DANIEL IS TELLING WHAT HAPPENED TO HIM AT THAT POINT) AND WE ARE TOLD THIS VISION FULFILLMENT IS FOR MANY YEARS AHEAD…=
Dan 10:14 Now I am come to make thee understand what shall befall thy people in the latter days: for yet the vision is for many days.
10) DANIEL FELL TO THE GROUND=
Dan 10:15 And when he had spoken such words unto me, I set my face toward the ground, and I became dumb.
11) HERE ONE LIKE THE SIMILITUDE OF THE SONS OF MEN GAME TOUCH HIS LIPS AND HE SPOKE=
Dan 10:16 And, behold, one like the similitude of the sons of men touched my lips: then I opened my mouth, and spake, and said unto him that stood before me, O my lord, by the vision my sorrows are turned upon me, and I have retained no strength.
12) CONTINUES TELLING HOW WEAK HE BECAME AND HE GAVE HIM STRENGTH…
Dan 10:17 For how can the servant of this my lord talk with this my lord? for as for me, straightway there remained no strength in me, neither is there breath left in me.
Dan 10:18 Then there came again and touched me one like the appearance of a man, and he strengthened me,
13) AND HE SPOKE AND DANIEL BECAME STRONG=
Dan 10:19 And said, O man greatly beloved, fear not: peace be unto thee, be strong, yea, be strong. And when he had spoken unto me, I was strengthened, and said, Let my lord speak; for thou hast strengthened me.
14) THEN HE TELL DANIEL WHY HE CAME..(BEFORE HE RETURNS TO FIGHT WITH THOSE OTHER KINGS)…HE IS COMING TO TELL DANIEL WHAT IS IN THE SCRIPTURES. HE IS IN THIS ENDEAVOR SUPPORTED BY MICHAEL THE PRINCE OF THE JEWS (THIS IS THE PREINCARNTE JESUS)=
Dan 10:20 Then said he, Knowest thou wherefore I come unto thee? and now will I return to fight with the prince of Persia: and when I am gone forth, lo, the prince of Grecia shall come.
Dan 10:21 But I will shew thee that which is noted in the scripture of truth: and there is none that holdeth with me in these things, but Michael your prince.
CONCLUSION= CHAPTER 10 FOR THE MOST PART IS AN INTRODUCTION TO WHAT FOLLOWS IN DANIEL 11-12. BUT KEY ISSUES ARE FORETOLD IN THIS PROPHETIC EXPLANATION, WHICH IS IN FACT THE EXPLANATION OF HIS PREVIOUS VISION GIVEN IN DANIEL 8= (Dan 8:1 In the third year of the reign of king Belshazzar a vision appeared unto me, even unto me Daniel, after that which appeared unto me at the first.)…BUT BEFORE WE GO THERE….let me first gather the precious ideas presented in this vision=
1) Daniel is recalling his encounter with an angel that took place previously in the 3rd year of Cyrus(EARLY MEDOPERSIAN TIMES)
2) NOTICE…how the vision in Daniel 10, says that the vision the angel was to discuss refers to events many years into the future…(from the point in time= Cyrus 3rd year /early MedoPersia)…..MANY YEARS INTO THE FUTURE…AND THEREFORE DOES NOT INCLUDE THE PREVIOUS BABYLONIAN DESOLATION….
Dan 10:14 Now I am come to make thee understand what shall befall thy people in the latter days: for yet the vision is for many days.
SO WHAT DID THE ANGEL TOLD HIM AT THAT TIME….???
answer=
Simply that at that date, 3rd year of Cyrus, he could not in that moment give him further information but that He was to return at a future time to continue with the conversation, THE TOPIC OF WHICH WAS TO BE THAT WHAT IT IS WRITTEN IN THE SCRIPTURES IS TRUE….but notice what was written about the future…not about the past, not about the Babylonian Desolation, which at this point is in the past, since he describes their present wars with MedoPersian king and the to follow with Grecia..
Also likely he was to return to give further explanation of the previous vision of Daniel 8, given during the times of the last Babylonian king (this recalled meeting in Daniel 10 took place a few years later, during the times of Cyrus/3year)=
Dan 8:1 In the third year of the reign of king Belshazzar a vision appeared unto me, even unto me Daniel, after that which appeared unto me at the first.
SO…HERE IT IS WHAT THE ANGEL WAS TO DO..FIGHT WITH THE KING OF MEDOPERSIA (LIKELY THE EVIL ONE LEADING THOSE FORCES) AND THE ONE TO FOLLOW …GREECE….
Dan 10:20-21 Then said he, Knowest thou wherefore I come unto thee? and now will I return to fight with the prince of Persia: and when I am gone forth, lo, the prince of Grecia shall come. But I will shew thee that which is noted in the scripture of truth: and there is none that holdeth with me in these things, but Michael your prince.
So when did they meet again…?
Where do we find the next meeting…is Daniel 9 or Daniel 11-12?
Either way…they speak of the same things…things to come…after many years…
(not previous Babylonian times)
Those visions(9 and 11-12), are all ANGELIC explanatory visions of the SYMBOLIC vision given in Daniel 8 …which are about explanations of the post-Babilonian restoration, from the MedoPersian times, into the future….into the end of time….
(actually these visions/9,11-12 add further details, to the historical sequence presented in Daniel 8, which timeline includes from MedoPersian Times, to Greek and Roman Times, extending into the times of the Roman Empire Papal phase…to terminate with the end of time…a sweep through future history….(Daniel 9 concentrates in the Jewish Post-babylonian restoration to take place, from the MedoPersian Times and forwards into the Greek and Early Romans time, as the time of the Messiah…, but does alludes the later Roman abominations.desolation…..while Daniel 11-12 goes through everything, from M.Persia, to the end of time…)
Prophecies are foretold events…their concern is not the past…but the future…
and in this case specifically the Angel says…that the events were to take place AFTER many years…which was telling Daniel not to expect its fulfillment in totality during his present or future life….
correction….
DANIEL 10 CONVERSATION…ONLY SAYS THAT THE ANGEL WAS TO CONTINUE THE DISCUSSION…(AFTER FINISHING FIGHTING WITH THOSE KINGS OF MPERSIA AND LATER GREECE)…which are the visions of Daniel 9 and 11-12…
could somebody tell me which came first….of 9 or 11-12,
The vision of Daniel 10: in the 3rd year of Cyrus, likely also explains the vision of a few years earlier Dan 8 under Belthazar…
I know that Cyrus and the Darius the Mede were contemporary…and likely Darius the Mede rule first the empire…as such the order of visions I need to refine it…HELP!!!
ANYWAY….all are speaking about things to come from MedoPersian times forwards…
I have tried to find out the actual order of the visions as related to the order of the M.Persian kings during which each vision was given….and this seems to be the correct order…
Daniel 2= Dan 2:1 And in the second year of the reign of Nebuchadnezzar
Daniel 7= Dan 7:1 In the first year of Belshazzar king of Babylon Daniel had a dream
Daniel 8= Dan 8:1 In the third year of the reign of king Belshazzar a vision …unto me,
Daniel 9= Dan 9:1 In the first year of Darius the son of Ahasuerus, of the Medes,
Daniel 10= Dan 10:1 In the third year of Cyrus king of Persia
Daniel 11-12= Dan 11:1 Also I in the first year of Darius the Mede,
According to history…the order of the Kings…were ,
Babylonian period..= Nabuchadnezzar–> ….Belshazzar
MedoPersian kings= Darius the Mede/son of Ahsuerus, Cyrus, Darius I
Order of the visions=
Daniel 2
Daniel 7
Daniel 8
Daniel 9
Daniel 10
Daniel 11-12
Surprised, they are in order in the Bible…!!!
Which means that the conversation in Daniel 10 in which the Angel came to apologize for not coming to him right away with the answer, but that he then told him that he was to return later on to explain the scritures and likely previous prophecies given to him…then the angel came back in Daniel 11-12…and guess what this further explanation confirms what we have known all along…that the ANGELIC explanations given in Daniel 9, and 11-12 are all rooted in Daniel 8 symbolic prophecy of the MedoPersian Ram, Greek Hegoat, and Roman Little Horn(continuing as Papal Rome)…..
Which means that in order to understand Daniel 9…one needs to understand Daniel 8…
(actually all the visions are complementary.)…
Concerned …you wrote >>>This antichrist in your Christian bible claims he is G-d and exalts himself over all that is called G-d, (according 2 Thessalonians & the book of revelation.) As far as I know, You Christians are the only ones (along with the polytheists) attributing deity and divine attributes to something that breathed G-d’s air, and walked on G-d’s earth.
You really..have not study Daniel 7…have you? and that is your own prophet!!!
How do you explain the Son of Man, coming before God in heaven and getting crowned and receiving His Kingdom, and sharing it with his people …..
Dan 7:13 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.
Dan 7:14 And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.
Dan 7:27 And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him.
It is your prophet whose prophecy has being fulfilled…as he foretold…identifying empires that come and go, and earthly events foretold…galore…
And yet what this prophet says of the Son of Man, whichis the incarnate God…(the one that was together with God as creation, which your own Bible says,…let US make man…
and HIM…you reject…unbelievable…
It is this Son of Man, your God who became man, so that He could save us…
Him…you will one day meet….is up to you in which side of the fence you are going to be=
Dan 7:13-14 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him. And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.
Dan 7:27 And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him.
Bru, As you are aware the 4 beasts in Daniel 7 represent kingdoms, not literal beasts. Is it possible that the “one like a man” is a metaphor for a Jewish kingdom and not a literal heavenly being?
You are right
beast= kingdom/Dan. 7:23
king= kingdom….
as such the king symbolizes His kingdom…
beast= kings=kingdoms
Dan 7:17-18
These great beasts, which are four, are four kings, which shall arise out of the earth. But the saints of the most High shall take the kingdom, and possess the kingdom for ever, even for ever and ever.
yet…
We see God, the Ancient of time….well described…and interacting with the Son of Man, both are real… the Son of God who is to be crowned by God and to be served by ALL PEOPLE (all nations…)….that speaks volumes of whom He is. Although certainly as a king He symbolizes His people, that does not means that He looses His identity in the process…in fact the prophecy itself shows Him being adore/served by His people….
Dan 7:14 And there was given HIM dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve HIM: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.
If nothing else…IN THE PROPHECY is shown an event in heaven, where somebody else than God is called the Son of man and…to whom God gives the kingdom….who is He? that should make you think
I think that both God and Jesus (The Michael, the Angel of the Lord who accepts worship describes multiple times in the OT books, the “US” at creation, and the Son of man Daniel’s prophetic message, also alluded in the NT) are real in that prophecy,
a real event is shown in heaven, which is the final judgment trial(Antitypical Yom Kipur) shown taking place in heaven during the time of the end, followed by the crowning act of the Son of Man as He is crowned by God also happening in heaven… all these taking place in heaven before He has His people with them there…
this all speaks of His heavenly identity outside the people He represents, who are still awaiting for him here on earth, and following this they with Him are to receiving His kingdom….
The fact that this event of the Son of Man coming to the Ancient of Days is taking place in heaven during the time of the end clearly tells us that the Son of Man is not the Jews…
(since they are not in heaven yet at this point)…
The problem Bru, is that there is no good reason (taken in context) to think of the one like a son of man as a literal heavenly being, but rather as a metaphor for the kingdom.
Nowhere in the Hebrew Bible is service or worship directed at an angel of the lord. Nowhere is a command given by G-d to worship such an angel. If it had been central to worship such a being, G-d would have said, “you have been shown to know that I am triune, that you shall serve me, my son, and spirit. It is crucial to know that G-d doesn’t speak crucial foundational teachings in riddles, he commands clearly. The Tanakh says over and over I am G-d there is none beside me.
Only the father ever RECIEVES worship from humans in scripture. There isn’t any good reason to suggest that Daniel 7 is reffering to a special being alongside the father, when the context of the chapter is clearly couched in a metaphor where Gentile kingdoms are likened to beasts. It seems perfectly clear that Israel as a nation be likened to one LIKE a man.
“Israel as a nation be likened to one LIKE a man.”
Given all the latest posts this is all I have time for. This is what Xtians do not reaize
Ezra 3:1
The seventh month arrived and the children of Israel were settled in the citites. The people then assembled as one man to Jerusalem. ISRAEL is the Compound Unity.
What I find ironic Sharbano, is that the Christian bible itself understands Israel’s nature as a compound entity of many individuals. Christians have been surrounded by replacement theology so long, that they get lost.
It is your prophet whose prophecy has being fulfilled…as he foretold…identifying empires that come and go, and earthly events foretold…galore…
Yes, the Beasts are the gentile kingdom’s while the kingdom of Israel is treated as “one like a man.” That fits the context far better than an “incarnate god,” as you worded it.
One like a man…is not all the crowd of Jews…
these are shown as His people, and they serve Him, worship Him…
Dan 7:27
And the kingdom and dominion,
and the greatness of the kingdom
under the whole heaven,
shall be given
“to the people of the saints”(JEWS INCLUDED) of the most High(THE MESSIAH),
whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom,
and all dominions(JEWS INCLUDED) shall serve and obey HIM.
.
Once again your bible translation is in error.
Please post what your Jewish translation says…
seems to me that “your bible tranaslation is in error” …is not enough….!
One should realize that in translating from Hebrew that close enough is not enough. I get the impression that this is where misconceptions are born.
27) And the kingship, the dominion and grandeur of the kingdoms under all the heavens will be given to the holy supreme nation. Its kingdom will be an everlasting kingdom, and all rulers will serve and obey it.
It is the nation of Israel spoken of here as can be seen from previous verses. By using the Xtian term “Saints” it confuses the issue. One has to realize that most all of Tanach is written By Jews, About Jews and For Jews. One has to realize WHO the audience is that read these books. If one keeps this in mind there would be much less confusion. I haven’t heard it for quite some time but it used to be said by Xtians that anytime Israel was mentioned in prophecy it actually meant Xtians. This was to reinforce replacement theology.
https://yourphariseefriend.wordpress.com/2015/05/10/daniel-7-and-acceptance-of-scripture-an-open-letter-to-bru/
WELL…AS I SAID BEFORE…
You Have God giving Him His kingdom….
no mere human will be king of that Kingdom…
the one told to be King of kings and Lord of lords…is the Messiah…
1)
IS MICHAEL YOUR PRINCE IN DANIEL 10…… a heavenly being who became man…but who is to return by the end of time, as Daniel 12 1-3 shows…
Dan 10:21 …and there is none that holdeth with me in these things, but Michael your prince( A HEAVENLY BEING).
2)
MICHAEL YOUR PRINCE IN DANIEL 12….. is right there during the time of the end, at at the end…HE is the one that is to liberate His people…
Dan 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book(REFERENCE TO FINAL JUDGMENT DESCRIBED IN DAN.7:9-10, IN WHERE THE SON OF MAN IS ALSO ALLUDED).
Dan 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
Dan 12:3 And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever.
3)
HE IS THE PRINCE OF THE COVENANT…
HE IS THE PRINCE THAT CONFIRMED THE COVENANT=
HE IS THE MESSIAH PRINCE
Dan 11:22 And with the arms of a flood shall they be overflown from before him, and shall be broken; yea, also the prince of the covenant.
4)
HE IS THE MESSIAH/PRINCE WHO CONFIRMS THE COVENANT=
Dan 9:27 And he(the PRINCE) hall confirm the covenant
Dan 9:25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince
5)
HE IS THE PRINCE OF THE HOST/HE SAINTS…
Dan 8:11 Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host,
6)
HE IS THE PRINCE OF PRINCES….=
Dan 8:25… he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes;…
All through Daniel we have this Prince of the Covenant…identified as Michael your prince,
also called the Messiah Prince….that is Jesus our Lord….
although he is told to have come during the last or 70th week, around the time of the 2nd temple…He is also foretold to come and liberate His people at the second coming in Dan.12:1-3
Dan 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
YES…MICHAEL YOUR PRINCE IS JESUS….THE SON OF MAN…GOD BECAME MAN…
THE ANGEL OF THE LORD WHOSE ALL OVER THE BIBLE RECEIVES WORSHIP AND ACCEPTS IT (THERE ARE OTHER ANGELS OF THE LORD), BUT THIS ONE, IS THE ONLY THAT ACCEPTS WORSHIP…
ANGEL …IS A FUNCTION….A MESSENGER…IN ITSELF THE TERM DOES NOT DEFINES DIVINITY OR LACK OF IT…
MICHAEL THE PRINCE OF THE COVENANT, THE PRINCE OF YOUR PEOPLE…HE IS THE ONE THAT CAME AS THE MESSIAH, AND IS TO RETURN AS KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS…
Friend, time is the same for Greeks and Jews….
NOT WHEN IT COMES TO HOW THEY DIVIDE THE DAYS AND BY WHICH ASTRONOMICAL PHENOMENON THEY USE. A LUNAR YEAR IS DIFFERENT THAN A SOLAR ONE!
Concerned Reader…
You are bringing tangential issues which although related do not go to the heart of the matter, which is that regardless the numbering of the days….
the past is past and the present is present and the future is future….for all in a given moment….Jews and Greeks alike…
You want to introduce the Babylonian Desolation, as if included in the Timeline of Daniel 9, which is in fact a detail explanation of the first half of the symbolic vision in Daniel 8…
which have to do with the present MedoPersian Ram, future Goat/Greece and even more future Little Horn/Rome.Imp.Papal…. And that is not possible…
The issue at hand is that Dan. 10 and given the 3year of Cyrus…and referring to these visions, clearly is explained by the angels that the vision has to do with many days into the future…
Dan 10:14 Now I am come to make thee understand what shall befall thy people in the latter days: for yet the vision is for many days.
The ANGEL himself tells you all, that those angelic explanations (Dan. 9, 10 11-12) are rooted in Daniel 8, and we are told they extend well into the future(which is from MedoPersia times forwards) …and you insist that they include the Babilonian Abomination.desolation…
No friend!…they do not …by this point in time Babylon was in the past, MedoPersia was the present, and the future was Greece and Rome…
It is this disregard of what the prophecy says, where is rooted and where is heading which I do not understand of your Jewish Methodology of interpretation…which totally disregards this, and in so doing misses much..
Time has only one direction forwards…
and when the prophecy, given in an specific place in time, says something is forwards into the future…why then look back into the past?
IF YOU DO NOT LISTEN TO ME…LISTEN TO THE ANGEL=
Dan 10:14 Now I am come to make thee understand what shall befall thy people in the latter days: for yet the vision is for many days.
Bru
IF YOU DO NOT LISTEN TO ME…LISTEN TO THE ANGEL
If you don’t want to listen to what many have tried to show you, listen to the Torah.
19 God is not a man that He should lie, nor is He a mortal that He should relent. If you wish to learn the truth you might consider asking questions instead of correcting. The Torah wasn’t written in the 1800s, you have a lot of catching up to do.
Bru, are you aware that in the Jewish canon Daniel is included in the writings, and not in the prophets? Daniel 9 said that 70 7s were appointed to SEAL VISION AND PROPHET, usher in righteousness, etc. even if we use the secular date of 586 BCE as you suggest for the decree, 490 years would place us @96 CE a solid 50+ years after Jesus lived. This passage could just as easily be interpreted to fit bar kochba as it could Jesus, or even others.
The evidence you give for your reading is circumstantial, I don’t say this to be mean btw.
Oh, I know what you mean…and I know you have your belief…that has nothing to do with being mean or not…
you wrote >>>Bru, are you aware that in the Jewish canon Daniel is included in the writings, and not in the prophets?
Yes…Daniel was demoted as a secondary prophet, likely what he was saying was not understood as important, or it was to hot to handle…any way he happens to be the most accurate prophetic messenger/ previously and from his time in history, right there in midst of early MedoPersia (which is where we see him dealing with the decrees…) his message reaches all the way into our present and even future….and so far his prophecy has being fulfilled..
>>>Daniel 9 said that 70 7s were appointed to SEAL VISION AND PROPHET, usher in righteousness, etc. even if we use the secular date of 586 BCE as you suggest for the decree,
HOLD IT A MINUTE….where you heard that???
the date of the decree as I understand it …is 457bc..TIMES OF ARTAXERXES…
so let us used our corresponding Gregorian calendar….that is the only one I know, and I know other dating systems can be converted to it….
Ok…it should be the same…
“In one respect, there really is no difference between an AD/BC and BCE/CE system when it comes to historical dates. The year 23 AD is exactly the same as the year 23 CE, and 4004 BC is also 4004 BCE. References to historical dates under either classification shouldn’t create confusion in a researcher’s mind. Major historical dates such as 1492 AD, 1776 AD or 1941 AD would still be rendered as 1492 CE, 1776 CE and 1941 CE.” WIKIPEDIA…
>>>490 years would place us @96 CE a solid 50+ years after Jesus lived.
OK…Lets see what you are saying…
a)
586BCE..+ 7.7s(490years)–> 96CE……that is wrong ….
you forgot the negative….that should be negative ninety six…. (-96) …..in greek times….that is no romans times…. that is ~century even before Jesus birth…
see below…
-586 +490yrs= -96
b)
The way I say is the following=
-457bc + 490yrs–>27ad/Messiah/Jesus arrives…
>>>This passage could just as easily be interpreted to fit bar kochba as it could Jesus, or even others.
Not even any of them..the way you calculated it…
The decree of 586BC???? Who gave it?
because=
The decrees that ordered the restauration of Israel started with Cyrus 539bc, then Darius 519bc and finally Artx. 457bc..
I personally do not know who gave a decree for restoration in 586bc……..
Only the Medopersians gave 3 decrees for the post-Babylonian restoration of Israel (from 539bc to 457bc)
>>>>The evidence you give for your reading is circumstantial, I don’t say this to be mean btw.
I wouldn’t say that…
But yes, is based in two basic understanding that you Jews reject=
1) The date of the Word/ which it is ordering to something get done, and it is given by a king…then can be called a command/order/decree= the one that we accept is 457bc, because is the last decree which complete the plans for the post-babilonian restoration of Israel….in the 457BC, for the first time in the series of decrees Jerusalem and Israel by default is given self ruling powers, magistrates and judges to rule the land. Now I do believe that this is a composite decree, simply because they are all complementary, what one lacks the other ordains…as such the completed decree of 457 is the one we accept as the starting point for the 70 weeks prophecy in Daniel 9=
1)
We accept the “7weeks.62weeks.1week”= 70WEEKS/490YRS, as being a continuous time period,
2)
STARTING POINT FOR 69WEEKS (SAME AS FOR 70 WEEKS) AS BEING THE DECREE TO RESTORE JERUSALEM = completed decree by 457BC…which gives religious political powers back to the city and temple…as such Israel ruling itself once again..(certainly as a nation under the empire)
Dan 9:25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks:
SAME STARTING POINT=
457bc/7weeks.62weeks>(A)MessiahPrince arrives
457bc/7weeks.62weeks.1wk/X-> (E) end of the 70 weeks
457bc/7weeks.62weeks.1week-> (E)-end of 70weeks(490 years)
2)
We accept the initial time periods(7weeks.62weeks) of these 70 weeks, as a continuous time period of 69weeks, as being the period that is to bring us to the arrival of the Messiah Prince, arriving in 27ad, (this when the starting point is known as the date of the decree/457bc)=
457BC + 69weeks(483 years) –> 27ad/Messiah arrives….Jesus…
3)
We also only see ONE Messiah Prince, which is also called the Prince of the Covenant because He is the one that confirms the New Covenant during the last week of the 70 weeks(that is the 70th week/27ad-34ad)). He is the same Prince that dies, in the midst of the 70th week, and with His blood ratifies the New Covenant and in so doing annuls the Old Covenant of sacrifices and oblation.
70th week =
(A)27ad —–X/31AD—- > 34AD = END 70TH WEEK / END OF CONFIRMATION N.C.
CONFIRMATION OF THE NEW COVENANT = DURING THE 70TH WEEK…7 YEARS
MESSIAH DIES IN THE MIDST OF THAT WEEK= 31AD….
4)
This Messiah.Prince (IMPORTANT = aka.The Messiah, or The Prince) as is in action during the last or 70th week, as the time of His ministry/death….
5)
We see the ending point of the 70 weeks, as being the same as the end of the 70th week of confirmation or offering of the New Covenant solely to the Jews= as such by this point in time whether they have or have not accepted the New Covenant as a nation would have being determined….as such known as the close of probation for the nation..
(A)27ad —–X/31AD—- > 34AD = END 70TH WEEK / END OF CONFIRMATION N.C.
End confirmation NEW COVENANT-= End OF 70/70th WEEK/S= End of probation
6)
The judgment to fall the nation, as a result of their acceptance or rejection of the New Covenant are foretold to take place, which is the re-abomination.desolation of the rebuilt 2nd temple, this times by the Romans, in 70ad…
As such 70 ad, tells us a lot of what happened during the 70th week concerning the confirmation of the New Covenant, whether accepted or not….and history tells us what happened…
FIRST = THE MESSIAH COMES….BEFORE 70AD
So in fact the prophecy tells us that first was to arrive the Messiah and minister for a weerk, (7 years, the 70th week), dying in the midst of that week and annulling the Old
Covenant of sacrifices and oblation….
SECOND= THE ROMAN ABOMINATION DESOLATION TOOK PLACE/70AD
So the prophecy tells that after the arrival(A) of the Messiah( end of the 62/69weeks, depending from where one is counting), then afterwards the abomination desolation was to take place(70ad)…
D=457bc -7weeks.62weeks -> (A) = Messiah arrives/27ad …… abom.des/70ad
D=457bc -69 WEEKS TOTAL> 27ad(A) — 31ad/X—>34ad-E.P… abom. des/70ad…
E.P.= end probation…the abomination desolation takes place after the end or probation, during the period of probation, 70 weeks, mercy shines … it is only after probation closes that the judgments come…
Which means that the Messiah already arrived…since the CITY and temple were abominated desolated in 70 AD (NOTICE IT ALSO REFERS TO THE DESOLATION OF THE CITY…NOT JUST THE TEMPLE)…and the Messiah was to arrive before the abomiantion desolation…before 70ad…
The 69weeks (483 years) counting from the decree of 457bc(a real decree)….it points directly to Jesus as the Messiah(ARRIVES 27AD), even dying in the Midst of the week(31AD) and end of confirmation of the New Covenant takes place in 34ad..
no more given in force at the national level…but thanks to God it is open to all at the personal level…the Israel of God, the Good Olive Tree, with original believers Jewish branches and brafted gentile believers… Where Israel failed, His Messiah won for her…
Your Prince….Michael…to return soon….
the Prince of the Covenant by then is crowned as King of kings and Lord of Lords and comes to get His people…together inheriting heaven and the earth made new…
Amen!!
I apologize for the miscalculation ie 586 BCE , but your dates still don’t change anything about the meaning. Did Jesus inaugurate peace, end sin, and seal vision and prophet in 27 CE or 33-34 CE? No he did not. Did he anoint the holy place? No he did not. Did he purify the Levites and make their sacrificial offerings in the temple acceptable to G-d as other scriptures mention? No he did not. Jesus’ movement may have brought some biblical knowledge, but he did not fulfill the prophecies.
Put not your trust in PRINCES, NOR IN THE SON OF MAN IN WHOM THERE IS NO HELP Psalm 146:3.
Why do you call Jesus the archangel Michael? If Jesus is an archangel, listen to what the apostle Paul says in Collosians 2:18. You are explicitly told not to worship Angels. There is a monumental difference between Angels and G-d. The bible also teaches that you should not place trust in the calculation of times. Daniel learned this lesson when he was so perturbed in his heart about vision and G-d’s decree, that’s why the Angel has to explain the vision, Daniel miscalculated his dates and didn’t understand his vision. If a prophet doesn’t understand, how much more we people Today.
So, you don’t trust Rome, but you use the Pope’s gregorian calander? You view Rome as the beast, yet you cling to her doctrines.
https://outreachjudaism.org/daniel-nines-70-weeks-audio/
Bru, listen to this lecture
CR
She also believes in the same “Savior” that the anti Christ, Rome, teaches will same all of us. If we will just believe what the anti Christ believes.
same us all. Should read, “will SAVE us all”
The problem with the Antichrist is that Pagan Rome infiltrated the apostate christian churches…uses the same “words” and names, but misinterprets and give false doctrines and false witnessing, of things that are not biblical and that are not present there, and also changed the law of God… The true Christ did neither.. if you study the NT teachings you will find out they are opposite to what Papal Rome teaches….
The issue is that there is more danger in a power that calls himself christian yet denies the truth faith. Papal Rome introduce the mass, a continual repetitive sacrifice which is not what Christ spoke of, they introduce Mary as co-redemptrix a lie, they change the law of God (took out the 2nd commandment of not having images and change the 7thday Sabbath for Sunday), instated the worship of idols…the wrong baptism, believes in life during death (and even introduce this belief in many protestant churches), this as a result of mixing themselves paganism. That Papal Rome misrepresent Christ and his message, does not mean that the real Christ is wrong…
I think one need to differentiate what Christ taught from what is taught by the false pagan teachings that infiltrated the apostate christian church and obscure the truth. There is where you go wrong… I do not believe that the same Savior that Romes teaches is going to save me…
Why? ….simply because Rome teaches a false savior by misrepresenting His teachings and what He stood for…
So…. you people are smart enough to know the difference….
just because you had Achab and Jezabel in your nation…
does not mean that David was the same as they were….or that he taught the same..
(and here we are just comparing kings…the difference are more mark when the differentiation is between the true Christ and the Antichrist….
I guess I should not expect you will be able to differenciate them, since you have not studied His teachings…but Jesus is the truth…Papal Rome is the false Christ…
Bru
I get that you dont much care for the catholic church but in truth the SDA church has plenty of skellatons in their own closet. I would disagree with what you claim to be the issue. The issue is you worship the same G-d that the whore of babalon and the anti christ worship. Judaism does not. This should cause you to rethink your belief. You can throw this and that prophesy around and count until your blue in the face but at the end of the day you worship the same G-d the anti christ insist will save the world. I dont think he has your best interest in mind. It would be understandable for you to be confused if it was the Romans that G-d appeared to and made a covenant with. We dont even need to get into Mary worship, Sunday worship, baptism, having images. I think idolatry would be the worst offence. Moses tells us that we have a choice between good and evil. Choose good. Choose the anti christ G-d or the G-d of Judaism.
Concerned Reader says: May 9, 2015 at 4:56 am>>>I apologize for the miscalculation ie 586 BCE , but your dates still don’t change anything about the meaning.
No need to apologize…it happened to me too…. I wish this posting place would have ways of editing….(like facebook does)…it will make our life better….
Dates do change the meaning, since a “unknown” in the prophecy as the Little Horn, if not properly identify by the dates in the timeline, still will change the identification of the person or entity…
You see, if the 483 years(69 weeks) unto the Messiah bring us to 300ad…there is not way that one can see Jesus in that timeline….
The same goes, if instead of 69 weeks, you have the 7 weeks to bring you to your first Messiah…by using the date for the decree of 457bc, 49yers(7weeks) later will bring you to.. 408bc…. As such who is alive in 408bc claiming to be the Messiah? Nobody…
(in fact the end of the 7weeks what it marks is the end of restoration of the city and 2nd temple by this point in time, or its inaguration,…..certainly a city and temple continues growing from this point in time..)
It is so important the dates as how they change the meaning and identifications of unknowns presented in the prophecy…that in order for you to have Cyrus being your first Messiah you need to move the starting point of the 70 weeks timeline backwards to the time of the desolation of the first temple..that is the only way that you will arrive 49 years later to the times of Cyrus ( alive 576 – 530 BC). The problem that you have is that the prophecy does not deal with the times of the Babylonian desolation…but instead addresses from the decree to restore it to the times of the Messiah, and finally the re-destruction of the city and temple/70ad by the Romans…
So…the real issue that should be discussing are which mandates/commands ordered the post-babylonian restoration, during which there was to be 490 years of mercy/probation,
until the times of the Messiah who was to give in force the New Covenant for a week, and by the end of the 70th week that “enforcing”(giving in strenght) the New Covenant was to end at the end of the 70weeks(same as end of the 70th)…which means by this point in time the acceptance of the New Covenant by the nation of Israel would have been determined…and they would have made their choice… the end result was always the choice of the Nation of Israel… the fact is that the 70weeks ended and soon thereafter…
by 70ad..the re-abomination.desolation took place (this time by the Romans)….
The fact….is that knowing that the Messiah was to come before 70ad(abom.des), is important…since that give credence to the claims of some…while not to others…
And when understanding the specific dates of this timelines is in fact CRITICAL for the proper understanding of the Message….and id of the Messiah…
Now, as I said, the real issue resolves about which of the 3 MedoPersian decrees had to do with starting point of the post-babylonian restoration/function that 70 weeks(490yrs) addresses…that is the issue… Why Medopersia at the heart as the starting point of this timeline…one history tells they were the ones that started the restoration in question…
but more yet the Bible itself tells us that…if one considers that Daniel 10 tells us that the angel was going to return for further explanation of Daniel 9’s vision, returning in Daniel 11-12….but more yet…even Daniel 9, Daniel 10(not much told there, the Angel had much to attend) and Daniel 11-12 are all Angelic Explanatory Visions of the Symbolic Vision of Daniel 8 as tying in previous scripture which did talk of the restoration to take place and of the Messiah to come….
So if anybody wants to understand the vision of Daniel 9…I recommend a comparative study specially of DAniel 8,9 and 10, 11…(certainly the previous vision of Dan.2 and 7 gives further details of this time period, actually Dan.2 and 7 give a historical backbone and further information, to what it is being told in Daniel 8,9 and 10-11) as follow=
Key point= the visions of Daniel needs to be understood as complementary, that is as pieces of the puzzle they have a common information that forms the puzzle of the history from Daniel’s time forwards…(Dand 2 and 7 inclusive of the Babylonian period, while Daniel 8, 9 and Dan. 11-12 deals with the Post Babylonian period, of MedoPersia, Greece and Rome….until the end of time…the end of this world as we know…the establishment of the Kingdom of the Messiah here on earth…the Son of Man that receives His kingdom ….and the saints with Him……
DAN 2= establishes a general historical timeline by 4 consecutive empires, from the times of Babylon to the end….
Daniel 7= presents the same general historical timeline, and gives details of the empires that formed it…also describes 3 heavenly events as they relates to our later earth history, the later part of the, the time of the end and the end….(which are during the time of the end/preadvent period during which the heavenly final Judgment/antitypical heavenly Yom kipur is descirbed taking place during the time of the end, (later phase of the Roman Empire, Papal Rome, our times), soon follwed by the heavenly coronation of the Messiah(the Son of Man) also taking place in heaven….and at the end His comes to receive His kingdom/the Rock (the kingdom given to the Son of Man)…
Daniel 8= presents an spiritual issues within the context of historical timeline of 2300e.m.(years), starting from the times of the 2 horned Medopersian ram, then the 1->4horned goat/Greek goat and later-Roman Little Horn (symbolizing both phases of the Roman Empire= Caesars and later Papal phase) to the end of the last phase of the Roman empire(the end of Papal Rome/he is “broken”) still in our future around the end of time…
(you might say an spiritual timeline superimposed in the history of this earth, starting from MedoPersian times/post babylonian times, to the end of time…)…
Daniel 9= presents the role of the nation of Israel and related spiritual events, within the context of the timeline presented in Daniel 8 (as such both visions Daniel 8 and Daniel 9 have a common starting point/457bc), which is the post babilonian restoration, from the times of MedoPersian decree/457bc to the times of their Messiah to come 483 years later, in 27ad…and associated events…the first part/70weeks/490yrs of the 2300 years timeline of Daniel 8 is alloted to the time of probation for the nation of Israel, 490 yrs later in 34 ad…after this point the vision does mention later abom.des. events to take place during the last empire Rome…(70ad/abom.des. Jewish city and temple)…
Daniel 11-12= takes the same route, the prophtic historic timeline from the times of MedoPersia to the end of time…this time giving further details of the empires and kings (sometimes even specific kings) of the MedoPersian, Greek and Roman empires(this later giving details of its Ceasars and Papal phases…) to the end of time…to the 2nd coming of Michael your Prince…and also ours!!!
>>>>Did Jesus inaugurate peace, end sin, and seal vision and prophet in 27 CE or 33-34 CE? No he did not.
Despite of what you say…yes He did!!!!!!
Take for example yourself…(and anybody that wants this peace and freedom of sin)…
you can ask for pardon, and accounted has having no sin whatsover because they are pardon with the blood of Jesus, the blood of the lamb of God. Even more His Holy Spirit in you gives you the power to not sin anymore…and even if you make a mistake…pardon is readily available…So yes the blood of Jesus accomplished that much..and much more…
Jesus was the fulfilment of the prophetic message of Daniel 9, He did what He was suppose to do which is share with you the New Covenant in force…that your people rejected it at the national level, does not mean that He failed….it was your failure…
Perhaps things did not turn out as the way they were supposed to…because of your own rejection of the New Covenant… so I don’t think we should blame Him…
in fact He conquered where the nation of Israel failed…and open salvation to all, original Jews and gentiles alike, but this time at the personal level…actually even in the OT salvation was personal, because failing..they were taken out of the camp…
Perhaps what we could say…was that identification of Israel the Nation with the Israel of Faith, no longer exist (the New Covenant now in place, and the Old Covenant obsolete)…
but despite all…it is Israel…the same Israel of old, the one that it is saved…the Israel of faith…whose promise and oath given of the Messiah to come was fulfilled… Praise be God!!
>>>>Did he anoint the holy place? No he did not.
Yes…His sole presence brought glory to your 2nd temple…
and He went to heaven, and anoint the heavenly temple, where He went to officiate his expiatory and mediatory ministry (by virtue of the blood that He shed). And His disciples, saw Him go….and many of them died for this testimony….
>>Did he purify the Levites and make their sacrificial offerings in the temple acceptable to G-d as other scriptures mention? No he did not.
If he did not do that…is because they did not want it…did not recognize him.. did not let Him..and had Him cut off…
but try He did…He even try to clean your temple from making it an unsavory place…and all those traders came back to do the same…
>>>Jesus’ movement may have brought some biblical knowledge, but he did not fulfill the prophecies.
Well He did, because it was foretold by Daniel about the Messiah that was to die…your own Messiah was to be killed…and as such it happened…
the same said Isaiah about Jesus, as the suffering servant, which was to die…
So truth be told, many prophecies concerning Israel (not concerning the Messiah) could not be fulfilled at that time because of your people refusal… but God keeps its promises and in Christ He will fulfilled the promises to the Israel of God…which always has being the Israel of faith…even in OT times…
>>>>Put not your trust in PRINCES, NOR IN THE SON OF MAN IN WHOM THERE IS NO HELP Psalm 146:3.
Yes..your are right …do not put your trust in man…in those teachers that twist the scriptures.. actually that do not even read the torah and the tanack anymore, but preach their own traditions…that is a huge problem..and you are right …we need not do that..
But trusting in God and His promises we all should..
and the Prince of Your People, is in heaven, it is shown in your own Bible in heaven…
and He became man…God became man so that you may have life eternal…
yes a big sacrifice if you ask me…
Michael your Prince, is the heavenlhy Prince of the Covenant, the same that became the Messiah Prince…He is not of human making …. It is God that became man so that you might be saved…He did so …so that you…and I may have eternal life…
Friend, I see all of Daniel’s prophecies fulfilled, except for a few to come, just a little few., now more than ever, given the world situation and how it is foretold that it is to worsen..
I am going to trust that prophetic message…I am going to trust your Messiah Prince…
I am going to trust Daniel for my salvation…there is nothing else outthere…
>>>Why do you call Jesus the archangel Michael? If Jesus is an archangel, listen to what the apostle Paul says in Collosians 2:18. You are explicitly told not to worship Angels. There is a monumental difference between Angels and G-d.
Of all people…don’t you know that angel means messenger? it is a title..a function…
certainly we are not to worship created angels…(whether good or bad)…
But Jesus, as the Michael your Prince, and heavenly Prince of Princes…
is that Angel of the Lord, God Himself, which received worship of many of your ancestors because they did recognized Him as God… He is Jesus, God that became man.
the “us” of Gen 1, during creation.
So, we accept that your heavenly Prince of prince, Michael, is Jesus, God that became man…
So we do not preach for anybody to worship angels..that is not true…
We only say that our Jesus is called in heaven Michael (something that many even protestant do not understand).
>>The bible also teaches that you should not place trust in the calculation of times.
What ever the Bible says…
is not speaking about not trying to understand the prophetic message…
after all it is the Bible that gives timelines and one or other of its ending or starting points, so we might understand who is the right Messiah and even information to whom is the Antimessiah….in history (actually, the Spiritual Antichrist being Satan, and the human Antichrist, aka the Man of Sin, which is Papal Rome)…
if you do not follow the timelines properly…you will not be able to recognize who is the Messiah, or who is the Antichrist…
We know that according to Daniel 9 the Messiah already came before 70ad/abom.des of the second temple and city…So go figure out…who was that one…because he is to return according to Daniel 12:1-3
and when the Antichrist… soon coming to place His mark on those that accept him, a mark which is a one way ticket to eternal damnation…don’t blame other than yourself for not being able to recognize him… by not studying the timelines, specifically the 2300e.m/years of Daniel 8 localize him smack there as ruling from Rome during the Midages, nonother as Papal Rome…and other prophecies gives detail of “his healing’ his return in persecutive mode …so brace the Inquisition is returning whether you like it or not…(just ask Pamela Shuffert, she has detail knowledge of the guillotines being ship all over)…
>>>Daniel learned this lesson when he was so perturbed in his heart about vision and G-d’s decree, that’s why the Angel has to explain the vision, Daniel miscalculated his dates and didn’t understand his vision.
That in no way means that we are to forget the vision and not study the timelines…
That only says that we need to ask God for wisdom and understanding…and when confronted with these ideas …then bring them to God, and find out whether what I am sharing is the truth… I do not ask you to take me as face value.. most of the issues are rather plain…but I do not have the last word…That is totally between you and your God.
The error of many is that they do not come to God asking for wisdom and understanding..
they instead trust their own wisdom, or put all the eggs in the traditions handed to them…
many of them man made traditions…that I am not saying whether true or not…
that should be only understood by prayer studying the Word of God, and asking Him for the truth…. What I am trying to share is the New Paradigm of the New Covenant in Christ, something that was rejected by your people… but which I believe was the truth…
It is up to you and your God…He is there….go ahead asked Him in humility, much prayer and even fasting if it means that much to you…Go ahead, do like Daniel did…
and I will do the same this way….
>>>If a prophet doesn’t understand, how much more we people Today.
The prophet was to bring a message…if it was not relevant to him, if it did not dealt with his time in history…the angel himself told him that he did not need to know it…
But the message is to be understood by those to whom it is relevant and want to do God’s will…it so happens that this message was told to Daniel that was for the benefit of us…that time of the end generation…no excuse there for us not knowing it…because the knowledge is available for those that care for finding the truth…
for those that truth is more valuable, than their ego, family tree, or nationality…or traditions
Dan 12:8-13 And I heard, but I understood not: then said I, O my Lord, what shall be the end of these things? And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end. Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand. And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days. Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days. But go thou thy way till the end be: for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at the end of the days.
>>>So, you don’t trust Rome, but you use the Pope’s gregorian calander? You view Rome as the beast, yet you cling to her doctrines.
Friend.. I don’t trust Rome simply because she has shown herself unworthy of trust…
concerning the Gregorian Calender…there is no much I can do…
and to tell you the truth, the fact that day did not change the order of the day of the weeks (the change only the dates), is enough for me….
Calendars are not issue of salvation, specially when the person cannot change it..
What we need to do is to have accurate correlation of the calendar with historical events, and as such understood…
I know somebody here brought a new calendar, giving new dates, but the foretold prophetic time relations between events do not change… in fact..
the total number of years between events does not change, despite the change of dating numbering from one calendar to the other…as such each needs to be understood…
I use the calendar available, and the events as shown …as simple as that…
the day that I can make a new one…I let you know..
Better yet…I will use your calendar and calle instead of BC as BCE… (I do not remember the other)… Your calendar…that goes back..to the prediluvian dates..it is hard to relate to other people. ..So that is the issue…one needs a calendar for communication, and the Gregorian calendar is a common understanding …which matters…
(despite of who created…mind you Papal Rome did much wrong, but something good has come of their calendar, which is the common understanding of the dates, as such we can communicate and understand each others place in history or our vision of history, which is not an easy fete)….
>>>Now your accusation that we follow the doctrines of the Beast of Papal Rome is not true, apparently you do not know our doctrines….here is a summary of our SDA doctrines…this will help you understand where we come from… and make a righteous judgment…because so far you have not!!!
http://www.adventist.org/beliefs/
Now, in our church like any other church, there are good and bad people…
but one thing is certain our doctrines uphold the Bible Truth…
God bless!!
If you would study the Torah for what it tries to teach you on almost every page, and not for vague prophetic date mining, you would see how different Judaism and Christianity really are. There is another calander available Bru, it’s called the JEWISH calander! Your own teacher tells you that a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. THE CHURCH ABANDONED SHAVUOT FOR PENTACOST, PASSOVER FOR EASTER, ETC. THE CHRISTIAN CHURCH HAS ALTERED G-D’s law!
You advocate the worship of a being other than G-d the father, just as Rome does. You believe that Jesus is the only way a person can be declared right with G-d. This puts you fully at odds entirely with the Torah. I am not trying to be rude, but Judaism and Christianity are very different. Jews are COMMANDED TO WORSHIP THE FATHER ALONE. A GOOD SON OF G-D would not UPSTAGE HIS FATHER.
CORRECTION…..WOW….THAT HAPPENS TO EVERYBODY…
I WROTE=
The way I say is the following (IS IS AN ERROR SINCE THE 490YRS BRING US TO 34AD…..BELOW IS INCORRECT=
-457bc + 490yrs–>27ad/Messiah/Jesus arrives…
A) CORRECTION…
THE 69 WEEKS—>TO THE START OF THE 70TH WEEK/Messiah times.
SHOULD BE= CONCERNING 7+62= 69 WEEKS= 483 yrs, when added to 457bc, BRINGS US TO THE ARRIVAL OF MESSIAH AT THE START OF THE 70TH WEEK=
-457(bc) + 483yrs(7wks+62wks=69wks)–>27ad/Messiah arrives…
B)CORRECTION…
THE 70 WEEKS—-> TO THE END OF THE 70TH WEEK/End Messiah times
THE 70 WEEKS(490years) FROM THE DECREE OF 457BC THEN BRING US TO THE END OF THE MESSIAH CONFIRMATION(GIVING IN FORCE) OF THE DECREE DURING THAT LAST OR 70TH WEEK AS SUCH=
…end of the 70th week, end of probation…
-457bc +490yrs(70weeks)–>34ad/Messiah ends confirmation Covenant/end of probation.
SORRY FOR THE CONFUSION…
Bru, that confusion IN DATES is a direct result of what you are trying to do. You are trying to calculate dates to know future events. The Torah has a word for this. DIVINATION. Not even Daniel understood the vision he had, and needed an angel’s help, but you do? Are you a prophet? The Torah commands people not to mess with dates And times. It only causes confusion to try and rest your faith on such things.
CR
Excellent point.
Just look at history. Look what happens to Christian people when they try to calculate Jesus’ coming. Hundreds of decent people lose everything they have because some charlatan thinks he knows the secrets of G-d’s mind, when even your Jesus said, nobody knows the day or hour but my father only.
It is a Christian misconception about Judaism to believe that it is, “works righteousness.” That’s a slanderous lie! Jews observe the mitzvot because they are trustworthy and fit for knowledge. The commandments keep Jewish knowledge and culture alive. The Egyptians, Babylonians, Greeks, and Romans are gone because their societies focussed on flash, opulence, and power. Don’t put your trust into flashy miracles and calculations, trust only in godly living. Jews have survived this long as a nation because they have rejected assimilation into Christian sectarian confusions.
Con, applause!
Wow….
I am using simple mathematics and you call it “divination”… simple adding and subtracting…is that so difficult for you to understand… that a timeline that is continuous (as one of you said here), =
has a starting point and endpoint,
which is as simple as having the starting point, adding the timeline
to come to the ending point…
I even accomodate to what you are saying your bible says…
using your starting and ending points…and guess what the timeline comes short because your starting and/or ending points are wrong…
2+2 are 4…and there is nothing that can make it to be 9…unless you add up 5,
and that is what you are doing………..so go figure!!!
and what else do you do?…you fragment that continuous period of time,…
and then you blame me because you come out different results…
there error is in your side of the fence…
and please do not use the excuse that it is a different language…
because that is all what that is, an excuse..
I really thought that of all people, you that excel in complex mathematics could understand what a simple timeline is all about…
but guess what…apparently no!
What you are forgetting…is the God can become man… G-d could also become a bush, a brass serpent, a calf, etc. if indeed he wanted to, but the question isn’t could he, it’s would he will to do such? According to many examples in the Torah, people accord too much significance to manifestations of G-d’s power, to the point of idol worship.
The abomination.desolation as taken place already in 70ad…told that the Messiah already came(since Daniel says that He was to come first, then the desolation was to follow)….
This Messiah.Prince, is also known as the Prince of the Covenant, Michael your Prince,
and the prophetic message of Daniel shows Him both in heaven as your Prince and here on earth as your Messiah Prince, the Prince of the Covenant, the Prince that confirms the Covenant during the 70th week….and finally returning from heaven as to liberate us as per Dan. 12:1-3…
He is God that became man….to save us…
no other man or creature could save us…
only God…
Bru, G-d doesn’t have to become a human being in order to save anybody. G-d has rescued people from trouble just by being G-d. When Daniel and the exiles were without sacrifices G-d saved them by regathering them. He didn’t need blood, he didn’t become man, he just loved Israel and saved it because he could.
Christianity has changed the meaning and purpose of the Bible.
What you do not see, that everything He did was based in the fact that He had by a promise and an oath offered the New Covenant, which in fact is the Abrahamic Covenant,
even the Adamic covenant….the offering of the “seed” that was to come to solve the sin problem… the atonement of all…=
Isa 53:1 Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the LORD revealed?
Isa 53:3 He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.
Isa 53:5
But he was wounded for our transgressions,
he was bruised for our iniquities:
t…and with his stripes we are healed.
Isa 53:6 ….***and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.****
Isa 53:7 ….he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, …
Isa 53:8 …for he was cut off out of the land of the living: ***for the transgression of my people was he stricken.***
Isa 53:10 …. when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin,
Isa 53:11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied:
by his knowledge
shall my righteous servant justify many; ***for he shall bear their iniquities.***
Isa 53:12 … because he hath poured out his soul unto death:
and he was numbered with the transgressors;
***and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors***
Here has what God provided for the sin problem… **WHEN THOU SHALL MAKE HIS SOUL AND OFFERING FROM SIN …A SACRIFICE FOR SIN…
WITH HIS BLOOD, HIS DEATH, HE MADE AN ATONEMENT FOR OUR SINS…
WHICH MEANS RECONCILIATION/ATONEMENT BACK TO GOD……
GOD SET IT UP THAT WAY, AND IN ALL HIS PLANS AND DOINGS…RIGHT BEHIND IT ALL WAS THE PROMISE AND OATH THAT HE WAS TO HAVE SOMEBODY TAKE OUR PLACE, SO THAT WE NEED NOT DIE…
SO ALL THAT SAVING THAT HE DID HAD A FOUNDATION IN THE FACT THAT EITHER BY AN PROMISE OR AN OATH, AND LATER THE REALITY, HE HAD PROVIDED FROM THE BEGINNING THE SEED OF THE WOMEN, THAT WAS GOING TO DESTROY SATAN, STEP ON HIS HEAD…(DESPITE HE HIMSELF WAS TO BE WOUNDED IN THE PROCESS)…..as such all the saved ones had that security already for them…
BRU, HERE IS THE TEXT OF THE RELEVANT VERSES FROM THE 1611 KJV.
9:25 Know therefore and vnderstand, that from the going foorth of the commandement to restore and to build Ierusalem, vnto the Messiah the Prince, shall be seuen weekes; (SEE THE SEMICOLON? That indicates a STOP! THERE ARE SEVEN SEVENS UNTO AN ANOINTED PRINCE, IE CYRUS.) and threescore and two weekes,(434 years) the street shall be built againe, and the wall, euen in troublous times. (THE SECOND TEMPLE STANDS IN TROUBLED TIMES.)
And after threescore and two weekes, (AFTER!!! 434 YEARS shall MOSHIACH (this word just means an anointed one) be cut off, but not for himselfe, (THIS IS A DIFFERENT PERSON,) and the people of the Prince that shall come, shall destroy the citie, and the Sanctuarie, and the ende thereof shall be with a flood, and vnto the ende of the warre desolations are determined. (THE TEMPLE IS DESTROYED Under ROMAN RULER Titus.)
THERE ARE 3 ANOINTED ONES. The FIRST ONE WHO ARRIVES AFTER THE SEVEN SEVENS (49 years) IS CALLED MASHIACH NAGID (an anointed leader.) THEN THE 434 YEARS OF THE TEMPLE UNDER TROUBLED TIMES….STOP! AFTER!! 434 years AN ANOINTED ONE IS CUT OFF. (THE WORD HERE FOR CUT OFF IS YIKARET, A WORD THAT THE TORAH USES EXCLUSIVELY TO REFER TO THE DEATH OF A WICKED PERSON! When a righteous man dies, scripture says “he was gathered to his people/fathers.” AND THEN COMES TITUS IN 70. You don’t want Daniel 9 to refer to Jesus, trust me. You need some small background in the grammar of the verses.
Concerned Reader says:
May 9, 2015 at 5:50 am >>>BRU, HERE IS THE TEXT OF THE RELEVANT VERSES FROM THE 1611 KJV.
>>>9:25
>>>Know therefore and vnderstand,
that from the going foorth of the commandement
to restore and to build Ierusalem,
vnto the Messiah the Prince,
shall be seuen weekes;
(SEE THE SEMICOLON? That indicates a STOP!
THERE ARE SEVEN SEVENS UNTO AN ANOINTED PRINCE, IE CYRUS.)
Ok….let me ask you…did you had the semicolon in your language, ancient Hebrew?
Could it be that that particular translation made an error in introducing a semicolon in that key place…?
Also if this is true that there is two messiahs( SOMETHING EVEN YOUR OWN PEOPLE DID NOT BELIEVE…THEY WERE ALWAYS EXPECTING A SINGLE MESSIAH)…BUT LET US JUST FOLLOW YOUR LINE OF REASONING…OK…THERE IS THE MESSIAH PRINCE AS COMING AT THE END OF 7 WEEKS….BUT WHEN? WHICH STARTING POINT OF THE DECREE YOU USE SO THAT YOU MAY ARRIVE TO CYRUS…(TO 539BC)…
AND HERE IS WHERE THE PROBLEM START..YOU ARE USING THE DATE OF THE FALL OF THE TEMPLE, ITS ABOM. DES. AS DONE BY THE Babylonian desolation, somewhere around there, and theme measure 7weeks(49 years) forward to come to Cyrus as your first Messiah
at the end of 7weeks/49 years (which is the first part of the 70weeks/490 years)….
then you have to introduce a huge gap in order to have the other 62 weeks(434 years) bring you to the second Messiah… in 70ad…
WITH THAT ….YOU STILL HAVE A NO NO…which is you cannot include a period of abomination.desolation(in this case the Babylonian Desolation) as being part of the 70weeks(490 years) of Dan. 9 which is a period of mercy, probation, in fact that period addresses the post babylonian restoration and functioning, until the times of the Messiah…and neither includes the later abomination.desolation by the Romans…
AS YOU SAY=
W/7WEEKS/49YEARS->CYRUS/1ST …….. 1ST MESSIAH/70AD
(ABOMINATION DESOLATION… RESTORATION = BOTH AS PART OF THE 70 WEEKS
THIS IS WHAT YOU HAVE, SHOWN ABOVE…AND AS ALREADY DISCUSSED ABOVE…You are including as the first part of the 70 weeks the “BABYLONIAN TEMPLE DESOLATION” TO BRING YOU TO CYRUS 49 YEARS LATER(7 WEEKS) as the first Messiah/539bc…..this then causes a huge gap in between the 7 weeks and 62 weeks of the total 70 weeks, in order to give the 62 weeks an ending point in 70ad, as you do……as follows….
BABYLONIAN DES/49YRS->CYRUS 1ST MESSIAH 62WEEK–>2ND MES./70AD/2ndM.
SAME AS…
588bc + 7wks(49yrs)->CYRUS/1st Mes ) (539bc – GAP- 364bc) (62w/434->70AD/2nd.Messiah(1w?)
THE GAP BETWEEN THE 7WEEKS AND THE 62WEEKS = 175 years gap, time unaccounted for..Messiahs….that does not compute….
your idea of a first and second
539bc – 364bc = 175 years gap …incredible…
and you also have not accounted for the last week, after the arrival of the Messiah in 70 ad, according to you….what does he do with the next 7 years of the vision…?
THEREFORE…
FOR “THE 70 WEEKS”(490yrs) OF DANIEL 9, (which are 483 YEARS JUST TO THE MESSIAH)…and when using the parameters that you have given which are that you accept Cyrus/1st Messiah/539bc as the end of the 7weeks, and accept 70ad as the end of the other 62wks/2nd Messiah …..these parameters cause a huge gap,in the middle of the times in between the 7 and 62 weeks…. a gape of 175 years unaccounted for…incredible that is not right…
Finally…
….Using Cyrus times/539bc, as the “arrival of the1st Messiah” as such the end of your 7weeks/49 years, this certainly causes a huge gap in the calculations in order to come to the other parameter that you have determined as the arrival of the Messiah, end of the 62weeks in 70ad/abom.des… and still there is the last week unaccounted for…. huge gap and great error…Where AFTER the arrival of the 2nd Messiah in 70ad as the end of the 62 weeks(according to you) in 70 ad, are you going to place the time of His ministry and death…? Was he preaching during the siegue of Jerusalem, did people knew about Him? Why would he come as the abom.des starts, instead than before as the prophecy of Daniel suggest…..great problems with your interpretation….
What mercy is He bringing if already the abomination desolation takes place?
That fact is that the problem is that your dates are not only off, but they do not align with the events foretold.
Also there is a lack of understanding by the Jews, that the 70 weeks are in fact a period of mercy and goodness for Israel, and therefore does not includes the times of the abomination desolations=
This period of 70 weeks probation, is in fact is found in between the 1st abom.des/Babylon and the 2nd abom.des/Roman…and does not includes the times of these abominations…
Another truth is that there is only one Messiah Prince…one Prince of your people…
Also there is a total disregard, with the fact that all through Daniel’s book, the Messiah is described, as the Prince (Messiah Prince), Your Prince, the Prince that stand for your people, same as the Prince of the Host, the Prince of the Covenant…the Son of Man, Michael your Prince…
you name it…all this is not known or is ignored….
The same Prince of the Covenant from Heaven, is the same Messiah Prince…MIchael…Jesus
and by the way…there is only one…
in fact the 70 weeks(483) years of probation, during which the fate of the New Covenant for your people was determined by their own choice, the choice of their leaders….is told in the same prophecy, when it is told that the confirming of the covenant(New one) was to end by the end of the 70th week which in fact is the actual end of the 70 weeks prophecy……This period of probation ended and the Jews did not accept the New Covenant.
Again, that has being discussed over an over…which is that you cannot have an abomination.desolation all 70 years or part of it included within the next prophetic period which are the 70weeks(490 years) of Post Babylonian restoration-function/times of the Messiah, ending with the end of the Messiah’s work of confirmation of the New Covenant at the end of the 70th week, in 34ad.
>>>And after threescore and two weekes, (AFTER!!! 434 YEARS shall MOSHIACH (this word just means an anointed one) be cut off, but not for himselfe, (THIS IS A DIFFERENT PERSON,)
Yes….your 2nd Messiah…and idea that is not right…
>>>and the people of the Prince that shall come, shall destroy the citie, and the Sanctuarie, and the ende thereof shall be with a flood, and vnto the ende of the warre desolations are determined. (THE TEMPLE IS DESTROYED Under ROMAN RULER Titus.)
Now…you know who is the People of the Prince that was to come…Prince to come of which prophecy you are dealing with…the Messiah. The subject of that sentence…is the People ….(defined by the later words/adjectives), and they are blamed of the destruction of the city and temple….There is only one prince to come, the one and only Messiah…the Messiah.Prince…
Your Prince…which was to come from heaven and did come from heaven, to provide salvation to all…we know Him as Jesus…salvation… But no need to go there again….
>>>THERE ARE 3 ANOINTED ONES.
The FIRST ONE WHO ARRIVES AFTER THE SEVEN SEVENS (49 years) IS CALLED MASHIACH NAGID (an anointed leader.)
Sorry, I have shown how trying to follow your line of thought does not make any sense…
you complain about Jesus not doing the 6 things listed as taking place during the 70 weeks…
and what make your think that the first or second Messiah of yours did it, Cyrus? or the other?
Did you accepted the Covenant he offered to you? why then the second abom.desolation/Roman?….but how it is that possible, he came as that desolation started…that is not fair???
>>THEN THE 434 YEARS OF THE TEMPLE UNDER TROUBLED TIMES….STOP!
NO WAY…. that is not right…
the 62 weeks(483) that is the not the construction under trouble times…
The construction during trouble times, is the first part of the 70 weeks, likely the 7 weeks(49 years),
which follow 457bc…in fact I read that in the later half of the 5th century bc…the construction of the city took place…(the temple reconstruction ended later, although functioning as part of the city, as as part of a nation had to await the jerusalmen/Israel got political powers, which happened in the last decree of 457bc…after that the city reconstrucion was finalized likely 49 years later…..
Daniel says “the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.
is when the city and temple got reconstructed…the times of Ezra and Nehemiah… second half of the 5th century bc.=(457bc to 408bc)…yes the times of Ezra and Nehemiah
Ezra dates= ….480–440 BC=
Nehemiah = died 413 BC=
Nehemiah is the central figure of the Book of Nehemiah, which describes his work rebuilding Jerusalem and purifying the Jewish community. wikipedia.org
A)
FIRST 7WEEKS= RESTORATION OF CITY= 457bc to 408bc
STARTING POINT 7 WEEKS(49 YEARS)= date of the decree= 457bc
END OF 7 WEEKS= likely restoration of the city ends= 408bc
7 weeks(49years=Jubilee) for the reconstruction of the city=
Dan 9:25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem ….
NOTE: the construction under trouble times is likely= from the decree for the initial 7 weeks= 49 years ( 457bc +49yrs/7wks) –> 408 bc) = by this ending point in time the city likely had being restored, we know this because by this point in time Ezra(death=440bc) and Nehemia(death= 413bc) had ended their work, apparently soon after Nehemias death the restoration was completed..but granted the growth continues (AND THIS IS NOT TOLD IN THE PROPHECY, BUT IT IS A LOGICAL CONCLUSION…AS SUCH I SAID LIKELY) …Apparently the end of those 7 weeks/49years in 408bc(is celebrated the next year is the first Jubilee 50yrs) …marking that point in time… (I believe that jubilee, iis celebrated in the first year following the 49yrs…any way…somewhere around there)…
B)
NEXT 62 WEEKS= THE CITY AND TEMPLE IN COMPLETE FUNCTION
STARTING POINT= 408BC(END OF THE 7 WEEKS/49 YEARS)
ENDING POINT = 27AD END OF THE 62 WEEKS= same as the end of the 69 weeks when counting from the date of the decree/457bc, as such including the 7weeks(49 initial years), plus the 62 weeks(434 years) for a total of 69 weeks(483 years).
408BC + 434yrs(62 weeks) –>27ad. = the end of the 62 weeks, Messiah arrives (year 0, no count)
457bc(decree) + 483yrs (7wks.62wks=69wks) -> 27ad = end of the 69 weeks…Messiah arrives
Notice, that the arrival of the Messiah, comes at the end of the 62 weeks, (27ad), and
the end of the 69 weeks from the 457bc decree, also bring us to the same date of 27ad as the arrival of the Messiah…
so…the 62 weeks…
that is the time of a proper functioning city and temple(end of 7 weeks to the end of the 62weeks), as a nation under God, the end of this time period/end of 62 weeks bring us to= the arrival of the Messiah…
408bc(end 7wks) + 434(62 weeks)= 27ad= the end of 62 weeks= (A) Messiah arrives….
C)
LAST WEEK= 70TH WEEK
DEFINED= as the next week (7 years) the follow the 62 weeks(434 yrs)
STARTING POINT = 27ad = as the end of the 62/69 weeks= the Messiah arrives/27ad
= starts at end of 62 weeks (when counting from from the end of the initial 7 weeks in 408bc)=27ad
= starts at end of 69 weeks (when counting from the decree/457bc) = 27ad
end of 7wks.62weeks= end 69wks = starts the next or 70th week…
ENDING POINT= THE END OF THE WEEK(27AD TO 34AD)= ENDING POINT= 34 ad =
This is the end of the 70thweek ends in 34ad, and marks the end of the ministry of the Messiah in favor of HIs people, he endS his offering of the New Covenant to His Jewish people…
EVENTS TAKING PLACE DURING THIS TIME PERIOD OF 70TH WEEK/1 WEEK/7 YEARS=
27AD TO 34AD= THE 70TH WEEK… 7 YEARS…
1) the offering in force, confirming of the New Covenant takes place through the whole 7 years(70th week)
2) the Messiah dying(X) AFTER THE 62 WEEKS= dies in the midst of the 70th week, since he is in action during the 70th week/atonement= within the 70 weeks + after the 62/69weeks, means within the 70th week)=
at his death
a) ratifies the New Covenant with His blood..
b) annuls the Old Covenant, becomes obsolete..
7weeks – 62weeks – 1 week = THE 70 WEEKS PROPHECY (457bc to 34ad)
end of the 70 WEEKS PROPHECY/34ad= means the Messiah stops confirming/offering in force the New Covenant to the nation of Israel. From this point forward the New Covenant is offered solely at the personal level, those that accepted remain as part of the Israel of Faith, believer
Jews as original branches and believer Gentiles as grafted branches
END RESULT BY THE END OF THE 70 WEEKS, APPARENTLY THE NEW COVENANT IS NOT ACCEPTED, SINCE THE DESTRUCTION OF THE CITY AND TEMPLE SOON FOLLOWED AFTER THE END OF THE 70 WEEKS..THAT IS AFTER 34AD… WHICH DID HAPPENED IN 70AD
>>>>AFTER!! 434 years AN ANOINTED ONE IS CUT OFF. (THE WORD HERE FOR CUT OFF IS YIKARET, A WORD THAT THE TORAH USES EXCLUSIVELY TO REFER TO THE DEATH OF A WICKED PERSON!
Wow…I really enjoy studying with you…it really has deepened my understanding of the prophecy…believe me I being studying it … but certainly it is an advantage to know the language…
Yes…the Messiah carry upon HImself the sins of the world…that is why he was cut off as if he were a wicked… (the same is said of Jesus as the suffering servant in Isaiah 53=
Isa 53:5-12
But he was wounded for our transgressions,
he was bruised for our iniquities: ….
and with his stripes we are healed.
****for he was cut off out of the land of the living:
****for the transgression of my people was he stricken.
…..when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin,
…..he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days,
…..and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.
…….by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many;
*****for he shall bear their iniquities.****
Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great,
and he shall divide the spoil with the strong;
because he hath poured out his soul unto death:
and he was numbered with the transgressors;
and he bare the sin of many,
***and made intercession for the transgressors***.
>>>When a righteous man dies, scripture says “he was gathered to his people/fathers.”
Yes…perhaps reading Isaih 53 will help you understant what the Messiah died as a wicked man… that fateful day in the midst of the 70th week….simply because “he bear their iniquities”…yours and mine…
>>>>AND THEN COMES TITUS IN 70.
You don’t want Daniel 9 to refer to Jesus, trust me. You need some small background in the grammar of the verses.
Contrary to what you say…I can live because He died…that is a blessing indeed!!!
I know both Dan. 9 and Isaiah 53 speak of my Lord…as cut off as a wicked….for my transgression…taking that place in the cross that belong to me…incredible…so much love, and so misunderstood!!!
You see God said to Adam and Eve…”you shall die”…and that included you and me…because we all have sinned…but truth be told..only a spotless lamb could take our place…only a perfect God could have carry our shame and death, so that we could live… and so He did…
so much love we shall never understand…!!!!!!!!!!
All you have done is repeat the same text over and over and over and over again. I’m through reading the same repetition again and again.
I think it is time for you to answer questions instead.
Daniel gave a very deep and heartfelt prayer for an answer to his contemplating Jeremiah. Gabriel comes to Daniel to answer that prayer, wouldn’t you agree. He comes to give understanding to Daniel and his concerns regarding the return and rebuilding of Jerusalem. Now, as you say, the “timeline” in that answer relates to Artaxerxes. When did this King come on the scene and give his decree. The date you have chosen is far removed from Daniel’s encounter with Gabriel. So then HOW did Gabriel give him any understanding whatsoever. Daniel would have been just as confused after all this as he was in the beginning. It makes no sense that was the answer considering the question that was asked.
Now to the text itself.
What language has ever used the method of 7 weeks and 60 and 2 weeks to give the number of 69 weeks. This is unheard of in any language. If Daniel wanted to write 69 weeks he would have done 60 and 9 weeks. This is the method in other parts of the Bible.
Then also, if he was referring to “69” weeks then why does he say in 26) after THE sixty-two weeks. It is nonsensical.
You have came with your timeline of 69 weeks which leaves (1) week left. It is clear what that week is concerning. It is clearly the destruction of the Second Temple. That week, of 7 years would have to be somewhere around year 62. This disconnects the 69th and 70th week by many more weeks. The text continues immediately from the anointed one being cut off to the city’s destruction. But your Jsus being cut off is decades from the city’s destruction.
You have also ignored the many other questions regarding your translation of Hebrew words that don’t relate in any way. You have said the KJV is highly accurate. Why didn’t they use the correct words in their translation.
For instance, the Hebrew does NOT say “THE” Messiah, it says “A” messiah. Your translation also leaves out the word “THE” before the sixty-two weeks.
Certainly you would agree that Mashiach is also referenced as David. David isn’t called David the Prince. In Daniel, for it to be THE Messiah it should NOT have said Mashiach Nagid, but instead Mashiach HaMelech. Why didn’t Daniel write The Messiah the King.
Sharbano says:
May 9, 2015 at 10:57 pm
>>>All you have done is repeat the same text over and over and over and over again. I’m through reading the same repetition again and again.I think it is time for you to answer questions instead.
You are totally unfair, in saying I have not answer any questions here…
and God is my witnessed that many have I answered….
>>>Daniel gave a very deep and heartfelt prayer for an answer to his contemplating Jeremiah. Gabriel comes to Daniel to answer that prayer, wouldn’t you agree. He comes to give understanding to Daniel and his concerns regarding the return and rebuilding of Jerusalem. Now, as you say, the “timeline” in that answer relates to Artaxerxes. When did this King come on the scene and give his decree. The date you have chosen is far removed from Daniel’s encounter with Gabriel. So then HOW did Gabriel give him any understanding whatsoever. Daniel would have been just as confused after all this as he was in the beginning. It makes no sense that was the answer considering the question that was asked.
First in Daniel 9, Gabriel came to give further understanding of the vision of Daniel 8, which in turn deal with similar concerns of previous scriptures, among them Jeremiah,
simply that the restoration was to take place…and Daniel was wondering when and how..
LETS SEE THE INTRODUCTION TO THE VISION…WHAT REALLY WAS SAID=
1) It is the times of Darius the Mede, in fact the first king of the MedoPersian, Babylon had fallen and Daniel understood that the times of Babylon ending meant that AFTER the exiles were to return and he is praying about this.. Darius the Mede was in power around a year, .(this is likely just before Cyrus gave the decree for the reconstruction of the temple and the return of the first exiles..as such for him what was to befall His people was not evident yet)…
1)TIME= BABYLON HAD FALLEN…EXPECTING THE EXILES TO RETURN…SOON THEREAFTER, AS TOLD BY JEREMIAH…(BABYLONIAN DESOLATION BEHIND)=
Dan 9:2 In the first year of his reign(Darius the Mede) I Daniel understood by books the number of the years, whereof the word of the LORD came to Jeremiah the prophet, that he would accomplish seventy years in the desolations of Jerusalem.
2) Praying for God’s anger towards Jerusalem to end….
Dan 9:16 O Lord, according to all thy righteousness, I beseech thee, let thine anger and thy fury be turned away from thy city Jerusalem, thy holy mountain: because for our sins,
3) Gabriel comes the one that had given the previous vision of Daniel 8 comes back …and talks to Daniel again=
Dan 9:21 Yea, whiles I was speaking in prayer, even the man Gabriel, whom I had seen in the vision at the beginning, being caused to fly swiftly, touched me about the time of the evening oblation.
4) Gabriel tells HIm that He is coming to give Him understanding..(about the vision He had seen in Daniel 8..see verse 23, and also about the prophetic message that also refer to the PostBabylonian restoration, eg…Jeremiah said that was to come AFTER the end of Babylon…so all the concern is about the restoration that was to come….the Postbabilonian Restoration…as to how was to take place, and also about what the previous vision had to say in that respect, especially concerning the role of Israel in the future…=
Dan 9:22 And he informed me, and talked with me, and said, O Daniel, I am now come forth to give thee skill and understanding.
5) NOTICE IMPORTANT…HE TELLS DANIEL TO CONSIDER THE VISION, THIS REFER TO THE ONE VISION OF DANIEL 8, WHICH IS WHEN DANIEL SAW HIM AT THE BEGGINNING AS HE SAID ABOVE=(“”even the man Gabriel, whom I had seen in the vision at the beginning”” v.21
Dan 9:23 At the beginning of thy supplications the commandment came forth, and I am come to shew thee; for thou art greatly beloved: therefore understand the matter, and consider **the vision.**
>>What language has ever used the method of 7 weeks and 60 and 2 weeks to give the number of 69 weeks.
Simple mathematics = 7wks + 60wks +2wks = 69 weeks
(If God chose to give the total number of weeks that way…that is His choice…
in prophecies God even spoke of a day as “an evening.morning” similar to Gen. 1, which is not the usual ways to doing so when refering to a day, in like manner He can give the total number of days as He did, …go figure!)….
> Then also, if he was referring to “69” weeks then why does he say in 26) after THE sixty-two weeks. It is nonsensical.
Ok…let me explain it to you.
The total timeline of 70 weeks , is subdivided in the vision in three consecutive time periods (7 weeks, 62weeks and 1 week) which when placed together all add up to these 70 weeks, this means that there is no gaps or overlapping between these time periods as such they are continuous=
D 7weeks.(Y)62weeks. (A)1week = (E) end of the 70 weeks
from D to Y = 7 weeks
from Y to A = 62 weeks
from A TO E = 1 week
UNTO 7WKS.62WEEKS = UNTO 69WEEKS = from Point (D) to Point (a)=
UNTO 62 WEEKS = form point (y) to Point (A)
given the sequence=
UNTO 69(7wks.62 wks) = UNTO 62 WEEKS
WHICH MEANS= we come to a common ending point (the same ending point) whether counting from the decree + another 69 weeks..or
counting from the end of the 7 weeks + another 62 weeks…
UNTO THE ENDING POINT OF 69 = UNTO THE ENDING POINT OF 62 WEEKS
which also means..
AFTER 69 WEEKS = AFTER 62 WEEKS…
SO in reality …the Messiah arrives at the end of the 62 weeks, but dies AFTER THE 62 WEEKS…which makes sense a person first needs to arrive and then to die…(because after dying he can go nowhere…)…
the end of 62 or 69 weeks (depend form where one is counting) have a common ending point… as such the same ending point…which means they terms can be used interchangeably…as such “unto 69 weeks” and “unto 62” means the same, the same ending point, an specific point in time..which can be found when using the the timelines provided…
7wks.62wks-> point-A….. AFTER.(A)
xxxx 62wks-> point-A….. AFTER (A)
AS REFERRING TO THE MESSIAH
UNTO 62 WEEKS IS THE SAME AS SAYING
UNTO 69 WEEKS…WHICH IS THE SAME AS SAYING
ARRIVING (THE MESSIAH) AT THE END OF 62 WEEKS= WHICH IS THE SAME AS
ARRIVING (THE MESSIAH) AT THE END OF 69 WEEKS=
then…
“DYING AFTER 62 WEEKS” IS THE SAME AS SAYING
“DYING AFTER 69 WEEKS” WHICH IS THE SAME AS SAYING AS
“DYING AFTER POINT (A) WHICH IS MEANS
“DYING AFTER THE ARRIVAL OF THE MESSIAH…”
IMPORTANT=
AS such when saying the abomination.desolation is to take place AFTER 62 WEEKS,
it is simply saying that the abomination desolation takes place AFTER THE ARRIVAL OF THE MESSIAH(which is the one that arrives at the end of 62 weeks/point A).. ….
IMPORTANT…ACCORDING TO THE PROPHECY….
FIRST ARRIVES THE MESSIAH (POINT A),
THEN AFTER THE ARRIVAL OF THE MESSIAH TAKES PLACE THE ABOM.DES/70AD
WHICH MEANS =
**THE MESSIAH CAME BEFORE THE ABOMINATION AND DESOLATION OF 70AD**
WHICH MEANS YOUR MESSIAH ALREADY CAME!!! BEFORE 70AD!!
>>>You have came with your timeline of 69 weeks which leaves (1) week left. It is clear what that week is concerning. It is clearly the destruction of the Second Temple.
No…
the Messiah comes at the end of the 69 weeks, point in time when He arrives…
then the next or last week=70th week, is the week for His ministry of offering the covenant that full week, and dying in the midst..why in the midst (likely because he resurrects that same week end)….
>>That week, of 7 years would have to be somewhere around year 62. This disconnects the 69th and 70th week by many more weeks.
Ok…guess what …what comes after the 62 weeks is the 1 week/70th week
the end of the 62 weeks, is the same as the end of the 69 weeks…look below=
….,,, 62 weeks-> point A/arrival Messiah … 70th week
7wks,62weeks-> point A/arrival Messiah … 70th week
sixty.nine.wks–> point A/arrival Messiah… AFTER HE DIES…AFTER ABOM.DES/70AD
FIRST COMES THE MESSIAH… THEN COMES THE ABOM.DES/70 AD…
MESSIAH ALREADY CAME..BEFORE 70 AD…
>>The text continues immediately from the anointed one being cut off to the city’s destruction. But your Jsus being cut off is decades from the city’s destruction.
That is not so…
it simply says that AFTER 62 WEEKS (SAME AS AFTER 69 weeks) the Messiah was cut off and the abom. desolation was to take place…
both events are listed as taking place in the undeterminate period of AFTER 62 WEEKS, WHICH MEANS ANYWHERE IN THE 70TH WEEK OR THEREAFTER…
we know that first came the Messiah according to the prophecy…but the his death passed after, and after passed the abomination desolation….unfortunately…to say AFTER THIS AND THAT IS GOING TO HAPPEN…THAT IN FACT DOES NOT SAY WHEN…
as such the abomination desolation could have being anywhere AFTER THE 62 WEEKS, AFTER THE ARRIVAL OF THE MESSIAH WHICH WAS THE ONE THAT CAME AT THE END OF THE 62 WEEKS…( like soon after the end of the 70th week which ended the probation…. since judgment do not fall during the 70 weeks of probation, but of the offering of the New Covenant…
since
You have also ignored the many other questions regarding your translation of Hebrew words that don’t relate in any way. You have said the KJV is highly accurate. Why didn’t they use the correct words in their translation.
For instance, the Hebrew does NOT say “THE” Messiah, it says “A” messiah. Your translation also leaves out the word “THE” before the sixty-two weeks.
Certainly you would agree that Mashiach is also referenced as David. David isn’t called David the Prince. In Daniel, for it to be THE Messiah it should NOT have said Mashiach Nagid, but instead Mashiach HaMelech. Why didn’t Daniel write The Messiah the King.
CORRECTION ABOVE…
I got sign off…without finishing…
so…
PLEASE REMOVED THIS FROM THE NEXT TO THE LAST PARAGRAPH “but of the offering of the New Covenant…”
AN THE LAST PARAGRAPH DID NOT GET ANSWERED=
>>>You have also ignored the many other questions regarding your translation of Hebrew words that don’t relate in any way.
Friend, you are not fair…
Its been hard to keep up….with all 300 of you….and me alone here…
There are many things that I still have to answe..given the limits of what I can do…
I personally have not consciously tried to avoid anything…I have nothing to fear, simply because I sincerely believe what I say… I know that I have some questions pending.. and this I will get to them eventually…If you can help me reposting the questions..I will appreciate it…
but please…do not answer three hundred posts at the same time…and then expect me to answer you all right away…because I cannot do it…
So, please wait until I have answered to add another question…
>>>You have said the KJV is highly accurate. Why didn’t they use the correct words in their translation.
I said it is the best translation available in the English language…
that does not mean that there is not an occasional problem with the translation..that is why I try to go to the original available to me…to try to find out….
>>>For instance, the Hebrew does NOT say “THE” Messiah, it says “A” messiah.
It so happens that there is neither a “The” or the “a” you speak about…
there is only “Messiah Prince”=… if with this you want to say that this does prophecy does not speak of an specific Messiah, that was to accomplish much and as such listed…then I think that is an error… Because departing from the fact that we believe the prophecy speaks of only one Messiah (not 3 of them as some say) it is then evident that this Messiah Nagid, was to accomplish something that those other anointe people had not accomplished and were not to accomplished. No need to take away from this Messiah, and make
the MessiahH4899 the PrinceH5057
H4899
משׁיח
mâshı̂yach
maw-shee’-akh
From H4886; anointed; usually a consecrated person (as a king, priest, or saint); specifically the Messiah: – anointed, Messiah.
H4899
משׁיח
mâshı̂yach
maw-shee’-akh
From H4886; anointed; usually a consecrated person (as a king, priest, or saint); specifically the Messiah: – anointed, Messiah.
>>>Your translation also leaves out the word “THE” before the sixty-two weeks.
Now…please…this are the words …and there is not a “The” before the sixtyu-two weeks=
NO WHERE THE…IN THE ORIGINAL A THE BEFORE SIXTY OR TWO…..SEE BELOW..
shall be
sevenH7651
weeks,H7620
and threescoreH8346 (only one word here the threescores… “the” is not in the original
and twoH8147 weeks: (neither “THE” before two…
>>>Certainly you would agree that Mashiach is also referenced as David.
Now…incredible…
You have a God given prophecy about a Messiah that was to die, and cause the atonement/reconciliation back to God…give everlasting righteoussness, end evil, and much more… and you tell me that he is the same as any other anointed…whether David or Sauld…or the many that were there… If you cannot see the difference and uniqueness of this Messiah of Daniel 9 …then there is not much I can discuss with you…
>>David isn’t called David the Prince. In Daniel, for it to be THE Messiah it should NOT have said Mashiach Nagid, but instead Mashiach HaMelech. Why didn’t Daniel write The Messiah the King.
Simply because in Daniel 7 the Messiah is crowned in heaven by the end of time…near the end of this world as we know it…that is why… when He came before 70ad (which is when the prophecy says that the Messiah was to come, and it did…by this point he has not being crowned as yet….His crowning near the end of time is shown here=
yes…the Son of Man, the Messiah to come…the one that went to heaven, mediating now as our high priest, and acting as our judge during the antitypical heavenly judgment that was set according to the prophecy during the time of the end…this same Messiah is then crowned in heaven , and from there comes down to share this kingdom with His people..
Dan 7:13 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.
Dan 7:14 And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom(THEREFORE A CROWN), that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.
“6)and to anoint the Most Holy.
…this could be interpretated two ways, one by His presence the Messiah Christ brough the glory prophecied to the 2nd temple as such anointing it with His presenced….”
This is one I missed. The Hebrew says, (קדש קדשים ). How does your Strong’s define those words.
testing
Well finally dawn on me…there is something suspicious in the way this format blurrs the timelines..
take for example this one..=
“”W/7WEEKS/49YEARS->CYRUS/1ST …….. 1ST MESSIAH/70AD””
I posted what you were saying which is =
7 weeks/49 years bring us to Cyrus/first Messiah
and 62 weeks/434 years bring us to your 2nd Messiah/70ad
That total timeline above, (in between, “” “”) was scrambled, and partly cut off…so the result is a mess…and this has happened over and over again…
what ever is the cause of this actions…only God knows… but somebody should fix it..
hopefully…the problem is with the format… I dare not say more!!!
CORRECTION OF ABOVE
1)
I WROTE=
“in fact the 70 weeks(483) years of probation,”
should read .
.In fact the 70 weeks(490 years) of probation””
2)
I wrote=
“(the temple reconstruction ended ***later,*** although functioning as part of the city, as as part of a nation had to await that Jerusalem/Israel got political powers, which happened in the last decree of 457bc…after that the city reconstrucion was finalized likely 49 years later….
should read=
(the temple reconstruction ended **earlier***, although functioning as part of the city with no political powers initially, yet its functioning as as part of a formal nation had to await until Jerusalem/Israel got political powers, which happened in the last decree of 457bc…after that the city reconstruction was finalized likely 49 years later……
Could it be that that particular translation made an error in introducing a semicolon in that key place…?
Actually the 1611 KJV where it doesn’t combine the seven sevens and 62 sevens is more accurate to the grammar of the verse.
Also if this is true that there is two messiahs( SOMETHING EVEN YOUR OWN PEOPLE DID NOT BELIEVE…THEY WERE ALWAYS EXPECTING A SINGLE MESSIAH)…
Actually Bru, its absolutely true that there are and have been MANY MESSIAHS and messiah claimants in Judaism throughout history because the word Moshiach simply means an anointed one. the word moshiach appears, I believe, some 36 times in the Torah, and in each case it is used as referring to prophets, priests, gentile kings, and even of the Jewish nation as a whole. (Psalm 105:15) There actually isn’t a direct reference to an individual called “THE MESSIAH” in the sense that we all today think of the future Son of David to come.
We do know that multiple anointed are told in the Bible.
But there was “THE MESSIAH”…”The Anointed”, that every mother was expecting their child to be…the Messiah Prince of Daniel 9 perhaps. Seems to me that you are denying that there was an specific Messiah your people have being waiting for a long time….when this has being known for centuries… and many of your own people speaks of it.
And whether you believe it or not…Daniel 9 brings to view an specific Messiah that was to come and accomplish quite a lot, as there listed.
Also your idea of multiple Messiahs…is that everything in reference to Him you assign a different one….
You have one Messiah…..
a) for when He was to arrive = at the end of the 7wks.62 weeks, which being the end…the Messiah arrives AT THE END OF THE 62 WEEELS
b) you have another Messiah for when He was to die = AFTER THE 62 WEEKS…
c) even another Messiah to confirm the Covenant….
And all in all…is The same Messsiah.Prince….that comes, dies and confirms the New Covenant.
Truth be told, somebody has to come (and the date is given when), and then is told what he was to accomplished and when was He to die…. that is logical.
Now in the case of your Messiah, certainly is interesting
There are many Messiahs according to you in your Bible….but truth be told there is only that is the Messiah Prince….the Prince of the Covenant…..which Daniel 11 also tells us when He was to be “broken”…Dan 11:22 And with the arms of a flood shall they be overflown from before him, and shall be broken; yea, also the prince of the covenant.
You know why so much confusion, about 3 or thousands of Messiah…
because you have to pay attention what that Messiah was to accomplish, then you will come to the understanding that it was not an easy fete…even THE ATONEMENT…and that there is The Messiah….among the anointed ones…
The atonement is listed among all that this Messiah was to do…
Dan 9:24 Seventy weeks are decreed as to your people, and as to your holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and TO MAKE ATONEMENT FOR INIQUITY, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the Most Holy.
A proper understanding of what the New Covenant was to accomplish will help understand and put in context…all that this Messiah was to accomplished…
Yet, we need to remember that the New Covenant brings a new paradigm, a new box, for which the Jewish mind, set in the Old Covenant does not understand easy…
We need to remember that the Jews (specifically as a nation)…so far has not accepted the New Covenant by any Messiah (despite that Daniel 9 specifically says that first comes the Messiah and later on the abomination desolation of the second temple specifically, which happened in 70ad, which means the Messiah came before 70ad. Within this context, we all know that the Covenant that that Messiah was to bring was not accepted by your people, simply because you are still in the Old Covenant and its “box”…
whichever This Messiah might have being for you…the Covenant has not changed…and it should have changed according to the Prophecy…since…
He Confirms(offers it strongly) the New Covent and also He causes the sacrifices and oblation to ceases…to end. As such your nation if they would have accepted that Messiah and His covenant…you certainly would not be in the Old Covenant still…
Now… personally I find it totally illogical to say that there are 3 Messiahs in Daniel 9…
when it says that
the Messiah Nagid ….ARRIVED
the Messiah ……………DIED
He(antecedent the Messiah, but lets just say the Prince as you say)…CONFIRMS NC
Now…why list when one is coming…yet just tell when the next dies or for the other just say confirms the New Covenant???
I am wrong to say….that to ratify God’s covenant….for example the Old Covenant needed blood for that (and it took the blood of animals at Sinai to do so…)… could it be that the New Covenant is also blood covenant…since it was to assume the same that the Old Covenant was to accomplish, but this time one “perfect death”…spotless….one thing for all..
If the New Covenant requires blood for ratification just like the Old Covenant did
…then the shed blood of the Messiah was needed it to accomplish it…because in the whole prophecy it is He who dies…
According to Jeremiah…this is the New Covenant=
Jer 31:31-34 Behold, the days come, says Jehovah, that I will cut a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah, not according to the covenant that I cut with their fathers in the day I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt (which covenant of Mine they broke, although I was a husband to them, says Jehovah).
But this shall be the covenant that I will cut with the house of Israel: After those days, declares Jehovah, “I will put My Law in their inward parts, and I will write it on their hearts”(SANCTIFICATION); and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. And they shall no longer each man teach his neighbor, and each man his brother, saying, Know Jehovah. For they shall all know Me, from the least of them even to the greatest of them, declares Jehovah. For I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sins no more(JUSTIFICATION/PARDON).
LETS SEE THE OLD COVENANT…AND SEE HOW THAT RELATES TO THE NEW COVENANT….AND SEE THE DIFFERENCES…
Question: “What was a blood covenant (Genesis 15:9-21)?”
Answer: The scene would look quite ominous to modern-day observers—five bloody animal carcasses on the ground, three of them split in half, with the halves separated a short distance from each other. But in Abraham’s time it would not have been so menacing. The arrangement of divided animal carcasses would have been instantly recognized as the set-up for making a type of blood covenant.
When God called Abraham out of his hometown and away from all things familiar, He gave Abraham some promises. A covenant is a kind of promise, a contract, a binding agreement between two parties. The fifteenth chapter of Genesis reiterates the covenant God had made with Abraham at his calling. Except this time, God graciously reassures His promise with a visual of His presence. He asks Abraham to find and kill a heifer, a ram, a goat, a dove, and a pigeon. Then, Abraham was to cut them in half (except the birds) and lay the pieces in two rows, leaving a path through the center (Genesis 15:9-10).
In ancient Near Eastern royal land grant treaties, this type of ritual was done to “seal” the promises made. Through this blood covenant, God was confirming primarily three promises He had made to Abraham: the promise of heirs, of land, and of blessings (Genesis 12:2-3). A blood covenant communicated a self-maledictory oath. The parties involved would walk the path between the slaughtered animals so to say, “May this be done to me if I do not keep my oath.” Jeremiah 34:18-19 also speaks about this type of oath-making.
However, there was an important difference in the blood oath that God made with Abraham in Genesis 15. When the evening came, God appeared in the form of a “smoking fire pot and flaming torch [that] passed between the pieces” (Genesis 15:17). But Abraham had fallen “into a deep sleep, and a thick and dreadful darkness came over him” (verse 12). Thus, God alone passed through the pieces of dead animals, and the covenant was sealed by God alone. Nothing depended on Abraham. Everything depended on God, who promised to be faithful to His covenant. “When God made his promise to Abraham, since there was no one greater for him to swear by, he swore by himself” (Hebrews 6:13-18). Abraham and his descendants could trust, count on, and believe in everything God promised.
This specific blood covenant is also known as the Abrahamic Covenant. The blood involved in this covenant, as with any blood covenant, signifies the life from which the blood comes (Leviticus 17:11).
The Mosaic Covenant was also a blood covenant in that it required blood to be sprinkled on the tabernacle, “the scroll and all the people” (Hebrews 9:19-21). “In fact, the law requires that nearly everything be cleansed with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness” (Hebrews 9:22). In the Mosaic Covenant, the blood of animals served as a covering, or atonement, for the sins of the people. The animal’s life was given in place of the sinner’s life. In the Abrahamic Covenant, God, in essence, was declaring He would give His life if His promises were broken. There could be no greater encouragement to believers, since God is eternal and can no more break an oath than He can die.
All of these things were only “copies,” or “shadows,” of the better covenant to come (Hebrews 9:23). The lives of animals could never remove sin; the life of an animal is not a sufficient substitute for a human life (Hebrews 10:4). The blood of bulls and goats was a temporary appeasement until the final, ultimate blood covenant was made by Jesus Christ Himself – the God Man (Hebrews 9:24-28). The New Covenant was in His blood (Luke 22:20).
The shadows became realities in Christ, who fulfilled all of the Old Testament blood covenants with His own blood. Christians can be confident that the gift of eternal life that God gives through Jesus is the true promise to people of faith. As the apostle Paul explains, the covenant was established with Abraham and his “Seed”—singular. Paul interprets this as the singular person of Christ (Galatians 3:15-16). Therefore, all who are “in Christ” are spiritual heirs of the promises made to Abraham (Galatians 3:29).
To put it simply, a blood covenant is a promise made by God that He will choose a people for Himself and bless them. The covenant was originally for Abraham’s physical descendants but was later extended, spiritually, to all those who, like Abraham, believe God (Galatians 3:7; cf. Genesis 15:6). God’s promise of eternal blessing is given only on the basis of faith in the saving blood of His Son, Jesus Christ (Hebrews 9:12).
Read more: http://www.gotquestions.org/blood-covenant.html#ixzz3Zk5mWdeV
Your many misconceptions are the result of your KJV. The reference you gave of Hebrews 9:19-21 doesn’t agree with Torah. If you believe it then show me in Torah where it says (required blood to be sprinkled on the tabernacle, “the scroll and all the people” )
How can anyone believe someone’s writings when they fabricate the truth and change the original written text.
Accordingly, the use of decree is highly misleading. It causes you to mistakenly look for a point in time that a decree is given when this is Not the intent of the passage. By your reckoning Gabriel isn’t even addressing what Daniel was contemplating, that is, the words of Jeremiah. As such what Gabriel is telling Daniel is Not an answer to his question.
When will you begin to answer the questions put forth. By ignoring them we can infer that you don’t have a full understanding of the text.
S.
She is simply cutting and pasting the text from got questions.org as her answers.
People…be kind…
I am just sharing information for further understanding…
Bru
You have been nothing but nice. Sorry. its just frustration.
You are accusing the Bible translators of the KJV as liars… which is not true… they probably had the same problems that you have in the ancient Hebrew translations…
The truth is that your ancient Hebrew did not have punctuations mark (periods, coma and the like) and had only consonants, and it is a difficult language to translate which even for you Jews of these modern times find it not easy to translate, and seems to me that you yourself with your Modern Hebrew are assuming rules of grammatical expression or numbering which not need be the ones in Old Hebrew (even more in prophetic language which uses also different terms)… truth be told you do not even know how many of the old Hebrew words were pronounced… So please spare me…
The Truth Is???
Have you EVER seen a Sefer Torah. Do you really believe Torah has Nothing but consonant letters.
What makes you assume that it is a difficult language to translate for modern Jews. If, as you say, it is SO difficult for Jews, who by the way SPEAK the language, then how much MORE SO that Gentiles who translated to the KJV were in error. This is literally absurd. What is Truth is that you simply CANNOT ACCEPT what the text ACTUALLY says and want it to say something Else. No wonder when Xtians come to realize the Hebrew text and thus realize the had inherited lies (Jeremiah 16:19) they abandon that religion.
Sharbano… do you want to change what DANIEL 9 says?
You just want to bring Cyrus into the picture as if he is the one that fulfills the parameters of Daniel 9 (but by the time Daniel 9 was given in 522 bc Cyrus was already dead…he could not be the one to come… )…
Seems to me that you keep mixing up the prophecy of Jeremiah of the 70 years for Babylon, and associated desolation (its ending point well fulfilled at the time of Cyrus/539bc)…
mixing it up with the prophecy of Daniel 9 for the post-Babylonian restoration, from the MedoPersian command to be restored(457bc) forwards 70 weeks to end with the end of the times of the Messiah),
As such this “AFTER THE 70 YEARS” of Jeremiah is not an specific time period, and of itself does not give any “Word/Command” to restore or to rebuilt
AFTER 70 YEARS—> the return of exile…that is all Jeremiah says…
That Jeremiah only makes an statement..which says that AFTER(nonspecific time period) that is that AFTER The times of Babylonia the the exiles were to return, that is not a command…and certainly it is a different prophecy, not the one spoken by Daniel. You are assuming that they are the same…but they are not…
JEREMIAH’S PROPHECY=
Jer 29:10 For thus saith the LORD, That after seventy years be accomplished at Babylon I will visit you, and perform my good and perform my good word toward you, in causing you to return to this place.
JEREMIAH’S TIMELINE=
START BAB(609BC)— + 70 YRS– > END BAB(539BC)… after exiles return
THIS IS WHAT Daniel 9 says=
FROM THE RESTORATION WORD/COMMAND/DECREE…TO THE MESSIAH PRINCE
WHICH IS 457BC/DECREE TO …..THE MESSIAH…
Dan 9:25
Know therefore and understand,
A)
STARTING POINT=
“that from *the going forth of the commandment* to restore and to build Jerusalem ”
B)
ENDING POINT AS THE ARRIVAL OF THE MESSIAH
“unto the Messiah the Prince”
C)
WHO MANY WEEKS?= 7 WEEKS OR 7WKS.62WKS(69weeks) ?
“shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks:”
FOR US= 69 weeks to The Messiah Prince
FOR YOU= 7 weeks to Cyrus as the first Messiah..and 62 weeks for the 2nd Messiah)
FIRST OF ALL, THE “WORD” ….as *the going forth of the commandment* to restore and to build” is the order, command, a decree, which can only be given by a king (to reconstruct a city, or a nation)…
Jeremiah only makes an statement..which says that AFTER(nonspecific time period) that is that AFTER The times of Babylonia the the exiles were to return, that is not a command…and certainly it is a different prophecy, (certinly not the prophecy given to Daniel. You are assuming that they are the same…but they are not…
JEREMIAH’S PROPHECY=
Jer 29:10 For thus saith the LORD, That after seventy years be accomplished at Babylon I will visit you, and perform my good and perform my good word toward you, in causing you to return to this place.
JEREMIAH’S TIMELINE=
START BAB(609BC)— + 70 YRS– > END BAB(539BC)… after exiles return
DANIEL’S TIMELINE
FROM DECRE/RESTORATION/RETURN—–FUNCTION/MESSIAH->END
WHERE JEREMIAH STOPS…DANIEL STARTS BUILDING ….
THOSE PROPHECY DO NOT OVERLAP AS YOU TELL US…
THEY CERTAINLY FIRST COMES JEREMIAH…THEN DANIEL’S….
JEREMIAH/70.YEARS.BABYLON–>RETURN/DECREES-> DANIEL’S RESTORATION
JEREMIAH’S-70 YEARS–>END
That is why…its WHY JEREMIAH SAYS…AFTER THE TIMES OF BABYLON….RESTORATION WAS TO START…WHICH ARE THE MEDOPERSIAN TIMES…
THE GENERAL ENDING POINT OF JEREMIAH BECOMES THE SPAREHEADING DECREE/DECREES TO DANIEL’S TIMELINE OF THE 70 WEEKS=
A) OF WHICH 69WEEKS/483 YEARS WAS TO BRING US TO THE MESSIAH, AND A WEEK LATER, THE END OF THE 490 YEARS TO THE END OF THE TIMELINE/CLOSE OF PROBATION.
B) OR AS YOU SAY…7 WEEKS LATER TO BRING US TO THE MESSIAH PRINCE, AND THE NEXT 62 WEEKS TO 70AD/ABOM.DES./2ND MESSIAH according to you)
Does not make sense to have 2 or 3 Messiahs in Daniel 9 as you and others say….
when the prophecy actually speaks of one Messiah Nagid… Messiah and Nagid, all references to the same Messiah Nagid…
notice…One Messiah Nagid that arrrives, that dies(here called Nagid), and confirms the covenant(the He, antecedent being the Messiah or Prince..ok)
3 data of a single Messiah…
if it were otherwise
why then announce the arrival of one…
then tell of the dead of another without saying when was he to arrived…
and they say what the next one was to accomplish….
plainly does not make sense…
But…plainly this is all repetitious…
I think the quenching argument was brought to one of you above, that brought Daniel 10, in which the Angel says that he was to explain the vision to Daniel (after more favorables conditions, since he needed to return to fight with the king of M.Persia and later Greece)…
then when he returns with the explanation of Daniel 9’s vision(concerning Israel) and even more Daniel 9’s vision in which Daniel 9’s vision is a partial explanation (the first half of the 2300 years timeline of Daniel 8, which I shared somewhere above…)…
but for making things simple…lets go to the return to the angel in Daniel 10 promising further explanation, and when he return is Daniel 11-12, here we have what will clench the argument, what does the angel mentions in Daniel 11-12 which furthers explain Daniel 9=
SO…LETS JUST QUOTE DANIEL 10 (BECAUSE WE ALL AGREE THIS HAS TO DO WITH WHAT HAPPENED IN DANIEL 9…=
Dan 10:20-21 Then said he(THE ANGEL),
Knowest thou wherefore I come unto thee?
and now will I return to fight with the prince of Persia:
and when I am gone forth, lo, the prince of Grecia shall come.
But I will shew thee that which is noted in the scripture of truth:
and there is none that holdeth with me in these things, but Michael your prince.
HE WILL!!! HE WAS TO TELL HIM…AND HE DID…HE CONTINUES IN DANIEL 11-12
TELLING HIM WHAT IS HAPPENING IN DANIEL 9 (AND 8)=
PLEASE NOTICE THAT THE ANTECEDENT SYMMBOLIC VISION WAS DANIEL 8 (BEASTS AND HORNS)…THE FOLLOWING VISIONS, DANIEL 9, 10 AND 11-12 ARE IN ULTIMATE STANCE ANGELIC EXPLANATIONS, ARE ADDING DETAILS TO THE SYMBOLIC VISION OF DANIEL 8…. IT IS EVIDENT THE ANGEL HAVING GIVEN DANIEL 9, NOW EXPANDS ITS KNOWLEDGE WITH DANIEL 11-12=
AND HERE WE HAVE IT….DANIEL’S PROPHECY UNDERSTANDING STARTS WITHE THE MEDOPERSIAN PERIOD OF RESTORATION…ONWARDS..
NOTICE HOW THE CONVERSATION/EXPLANATION IS GIVEN =
Dan 11:1 Also I in the first year of Darius the Mede, even I, stood to confirm and to strengthen him.
Dan 11:2 And now will I shew thee the truth. Behold, there shall stand up yet three kings in Persia; and the fourth shall be far richer than they all: and by his strength through his riches he shall stir up all against the realm of Grecia.
Dan 11:3 And a mighty king shall stand up, that shall rule with great dominion, and do according to his will.
GOING BACK TO DANIEL 8 (WHICH DANIEL 9 IS AN EXPLANATION OF ITS FIRST PART, FURTHER DETAILS)=
Dan 8:19 And he said, Behold, I will make thee know what shall be in the last end of the indignation: for at the time appointed the end shall be.
Dan 8:20 The ram which thou sawest having two horns are the kings of Media and Persia.
Dan 8:21 And the rough goat is the king of Grecia: and the great horn that is between his eyes is the first king.
Dan 8:22 Now that being broken, whereas four stood up for it, four kingdoms shall stand up out of the nation, but not in his power.
Dan 8:23 And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance(ROME/IMP.PAPAL), and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up.
ANY COMPARATIVE study of Daniel 8, 9, 10 and 11-12, like pieces of a puzzle gives the picture from the MedoPersian times…Daniel 9 pausing to explain the OT Jewish times to the Messiah, and alludes to the abomination desolation/Roman to followed…and all this is place in further details in Dan. 11-12…
Daniel 8 symbolic vision, presents a whole timeline/2300 years + time of the end (starting from MedoPersian times, as the ram, then greek times as the goat and then the unknown little horn as the Roman Empire, with two phases the one of the Caesars/v9 and a later religious phase of Papal Rome, v.10-12)
then Daniel 9 is an angelic explanation of the first part of Dan. 8,
= that is the 70 weeks(490 years) represent the first part of the 2,300 years of Dan. 8″
= from MedoPersian times forwards, the OT times of the Jews,
= these 70 weeks arriving to their Messiah Prince at the end of the 69 weeks, while he then ministers during the next or last week/70th week = these as the times of the Jews
= then an allusion is made to the next period outside the 70 weeks, during which the abomination desolation takes place in 70ad..the Roman Times.. the times of the gentiles
Dan. 10..just bring us to Dan. 11-12=
in which we see further details concerning Daniel 8 and 9…
again= starting from the Medopersian times to the end of time…
THEREFORE….in order to understand Daniel 9 it is good to follow what the angel tells us in Daniel 10, which bring us to Daniel 11-12, which was always based in what it was told in Daniel 8…. and which are the times of the 2nd to the third empires described in Dan 2 and Dan. 7…
As I said, It’s TIME for you to answer ALL the questions put to you. If you are UNABLE to answer the questions then it is clear you have misconstrued what Daniel AND Jeremiah are speaking about. The questions posed reflect the understanding of the text. Your misconception begins with the translation of “decree”. The two are completely different words and have completely different connotations and this is why the question. Why does YOUR Bible say decree when the Hebrew actually says “Davar”. OR, is it as you implied before, that Jews don’t really understand the Hebrew of Tanach.
As you said, “Sharbano… do you want to change what DANIEL 9 says?”
It is YOUR KJV that has changed the text of Daniel, as my above has shown, there and numerous other places.
There is something we need to remember…
The Everlasting Covenant, was a promise and oath by God, that although given as such to Abraham (aka Abrahamic Covenant, even before the Mozaic Covenant)..this awaited its ratification in the blood of the Messiah…as such was ratified later. Abraham’s covenant ratified is what the New Covenant spoken by Jeremiah is all about. Notice how it was better than the Mozaic Covenant, which requires the blood of multiple animals (and which likely found their meaning in the promise and oath that God made to Abraham, the Abrahamic Covenant. Still we when accepting the New Covenant, it is God who does everything for us, justifies us(find pardon) and sanctiafies us (give us the power to not sin), which means the end of sin, end of transgression, an everlasting righteousness.. which only the person that is pardoned and given power to not sin can have…
still just like in the Abrahamic Covenant, where God only walk among the carcasses… still it is God (the Messiah) that does everything for us…we only need to accept His offer.
A better Covenant indeed that the Mozaic Covenant ….is the Everlasting/New Covenant.
We shouldn’t be surprised that it was God who came down to die and ratify this Abrahamic Covenant(the promise and oath that He made)..the Everlasting Covenant…the New Covenant…after all…it was God Himself who made the covenant to start with, who gave the promises, who walk among the carcasses… It is God the only one that could ratify the New Covenant, God that became man so that He could die/atone for us…
You are wandering off . Answer the questions we put to you.
Bru
I went to the link you provided and all your doing is cutting and pasting word for word the from got questions .org. This is not a conversation.
The Christian translation of the hebrew Bible often takes the word Moshiach (which contextually means ANY anointed one,) AND ONLY SOMETIMES STRATEGICALLY USES THE ENGLISH TERM MESSIAH IN VERSES LIKE DANIEL 9. IT IS DELIBERATELY MISLEADING
THE GAP BETWEEN THE 7WEEKS AND THE 62WEEKS = 175 years gap, time unaccounted for..Messiahs….that does not compute….
BECAUSE BRU, THE PURPOSE OF THE TEXT IS NOT TO GIVE A CHRONOLOGICAL PROPHETIC TIMETABLE THE WAY YOU ARE READING/PRESENTING IT!
ASK YOURSELF….Why does Daniel use a division of sevens? WHY say 7 sevens or 62 sevens? Why use that language? Why not just say 49 plus 434 years from point X in time THIS WILL HAPPEN? If that was Daniel’s intent, he would have just written that.
THE REASON IS, He’s using the language of the Shemitah cycle where Israel’s land lays fallow to make a point, because he is living in EXILE and ISRAEL IS AT REST NOT BEING CULTIVATED OR SOWN BY THE PEOPLE. DANIEL HIMSELF IS SEEKING ANSWERS FOR THE VISION HE DID NOT UNDERSTAND
The language of the chapter is shrouded in ambiguity, TO THE POINT THAT EVEN DANIEL DID NOT UNDERSTAND IT.
DANIEL ISNT INCLUDED IN THE PROPHETS PRECISELY BECAUSE OF THE AMBIGUITY AND NON CLARITY OF THE TEXT THAT EVEN THE PROPHET HIMSELF NEEDED HELP TO UNDERSTAND.
Consider that in the opening of Daniel 9, Daniel calculates that the exile should be over, that it only should have lasted X number of years. HE’S BASING THIS OFF OF JEREMIAH. He prays to G-d with supplications asking G-d not to withhold his face and to have mercy for his own sake.
G-d sends him this terrible vision, that he doesn’t understand, so an angel explains it. IT ISNT ABOUT MESSIANIC PROPHESY, ITS ABOUT DANIEL ASKING HASHEM WHY ISRAEL’S EXILE HASN’T ENDED YET.
Sharbano says:
May 10, 2015 at 11:34 am The Truth Is??? Have you EVER seen a Sefer Torah. Do you really believe Torah has Nothing but consonant letters.
ACCORDING TO WIKIPEDIA=
Biblical Hebrew has been written with a number of different writing systems.
These scripts originally only indicated consonants,
In the Middle Ages various systems of diacritics were developed to mark the vowels in Hebrew manuscripts; of these, only the Tiberian system is still in wide use.
Biblical Hebrew possessed a series of “emphatic” consonants whose precise articulation is disputed,
Modern Hebrew having imported additional punctuation marks from these languages in order to avoid the ambiguities sometimes occasioned by the relative paucity of such symbols in Biblical Hebrew.
What I said is that the biblical Hebrew is not an easy language to translate…
>>> What makes you assume that it is a difficult language to translate for modern Jews.
Because modern Jews are not living during the times of the biblical Hebrew.
And Hebrew for many years of the diaspora was not even spoken by most of the Jews,
certainly you did have your scholars that kept the language alive…
and I am not questioning your abilities…
but a difficult language it is …especially when still when the lack of puntuation marks introduces ambiguities as told in Wikipedia quote above…and when even there is dispute among yourself about some consonants as how were they pronounce…the Fact that a language changes through time, is a given, that in no way means to be disrepectful to the Jews…
simply that things are as they are…
>>If, as you say, it is SO difficult for Jews, who by the way SPEAK the language, then how much MORE SO that Gentiles who translated to the KJV were in error.
Look, I am not judging your know how…just speaking of the difficulties, both for you and scholars of our faith. Truth be told, that all the people that learned biblical Hebrew, for many centuries, had to learn it the same way…which was within the context of their present…not within the context of the Biblical times…
>>>This is literally absurd. What is Truth is that you simply CANNOT ACCEPT what the text ACTUALLY says and want it to say something Else. No wonder when Xtians come to realize the Hebrew text and thus realize the had inherited lies (Jeremiah 16:19) they abandon that religion.
I have tried faithfully to follow what you say…and does not add up….
your timeline introduces gaps, that you want to ignore, but are there…
the way that you overlapp two different prophecies (each certainly having their own fulfillement), but not the same…your treated as the same or overlapping…which they do not…
But finally you have not taken in consideration that Daniel 9 is in fact an angelic explanation of the vision of symbolic vision of Daniel 8, which starts with the MedoPersian Ram…and to the end of time when the last element in the vision is eliminated… and when the angel in Daniel 10 you yourself admitted taht came to explain Daniel 9, he then continues in Daniel 11-12 with the same concept tha that particular prophetic message (in Daniel 9/70weeks) starts with MedoPersia…
Your wikipedia reference is speaking of Vowels. It isn’t referring to anything but vowels. By Tradition the vowels were known, Hence the Masoretic (Mesorah) developed a method to incorporate those vowels. Even Xtianity acknowledged this Mesorah.
Try this wiki page which discusses what you have misunderstood.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Etnachta
I realize it is difficult to accept that Your Bible has misled you by inaccurately translating a text. But it most certainly was done with a purpose in mind. It may not have been done nefariously but it was done nonetheless. They may have undertook to fortify their “understanding” of what was “supposed” to be, but that method has resulted in not being faithful to the actual text itself. As a result it leads a person astray rather than giving understanding.
(Look, I am not judging your know how…just speaking of the difficulties, both for you and scholars of our faith. Truth be told, that all the people that learned biblical Hebrew, for many centuries, had to learn it the same way…which was within the context of their present…not within the context of the Biblical times…)
Unfortunately you assume This because you don’t have the benefit of understanding Jewish culture over the ages. A culture isn’t something a person can set down into words. It is lived from generation to generation.
A thought just occurred to me. I’m sure you are familiar with the Dead Sea Scrolls. Included in that is a complete Isaiah scroll. Young Jewish children are able to read that scroll without any difficulty whatsoever. Those children didn’t take a course in “Biblical Hebrew”. It was the natural Hebrew language that was the foundation of their understanding.
Bru, according NO LESS THAN THE RABBI, TO NATIVE HEBREW SPEAKERS ON THE BLOG, AND MEMBERS OF THE CULTURE THAT WROTE THE BIBLE, I think they are right ABOUT WHAT HEBREW MEANS.
Exactly! If you can’t trust the people who wrote the Bible and who speak the language of the Bible, then you’re in big trouble. Because, like Sharbano said, if you can’t rely on them, you certainly can’t rely on outsiders whose physical ancestors did not write the Bible and who do not speak the language.
It is not a matter of speaking it…it is a matter of understanding…
the message of Daniel was concealed …seal from Daniel himself…
and was to be open during the time of the end our times…
as such we are studying it here…
I do not doubt the knowledge and know how of the people who wrote the Bible,
But the truth is that discrepancies do exist…and that even following what they say, sometimes things do not add up.. So some errors have happened. We are all human, sometime we do not understand each other, speaking a common modern language…
why not see it when this occur with ancient texts…
You are making an assumption which is not correct…which the understanding of biblical hebrew is inherited… I am pretty sure all of your scholars are studying it right now…
as many gentiles are doing the same.
Hi Bru,
You wrote, “You are making an assumption which is not correct…which the understanding of biblical hebrew is inherited… I am pretty sure all of your scholars are studying it right now…
as many gentiles are doing the same.”
Our scholars are not studying Hebrew just like your scholars are not studying whatever language they speak. I picked up Hebrew as a child living in Israel for less than three years. It’s not my first language, but because of that I never had trouble understanding the Torah in Biblical Hebrew. I am not a scholar. I do not spend any time at all on the study of the Hebrew language. So if I don’t need to spend time on it and can read and understand the Bible, then a fortiori, our scholars even less so need to spend time studying the language.
Your native language is Spanish? Do you study Spanish in order to read your Spanish-language Bible? From our perspective, that’s how silly your argument sounds, no offense intended.
Respectfully,
Dina
Bru, while it’s true that languages change over time, ex. Middle vs modern English, Paleo Hebrew v block script, the languages still share a great deal in common, and a native knowledge of a modern variant of a language is ALWAYS better than NONE AT ALL. For instance, are you aware that Coptic (a dialect of Egyptian language spoken by the Coptic Christians of Egypt) was instrumental in deciphering the Rosetta Stone, thereby giving us access to ancient hieroglyphs?
An ancient text (and a modern text) has no meaning if it is stripped of the culture that wrote it. It is pure nerve to tell Jews that they don’t understand their own language! Pure hubris.
I apologize if I said something improper.
But truth be told, it is an error to think that no Jewish understanding has being in error..
or to say that no christian writers has made errors…that is not true either…
nobody can say that there is perfection in their midst…
The issue then, is how to learn from each other…
We need not forget that spiritual understanding comes from God, which goes across barriers…
If you come to the understanding that Daniel 9/70wks(490yrs) is in fact the first part of Daniel 8 timeline of 2300 yrs, and you see Daniel 8 starting with the MedoPersian Ram…
and in top of that you see that the angel of Daniel 9 coming to give further information to Daniel about his people, does that in Daniel 11-12, and he also says that same, that the prophetic message starts from MedoPersian restoration times….then we need to listen…
Bru
You understanding that Cyrus was dead by the time of Daniel 9 is flatly contradicted by the Bible – The Bible clearly states that Darius the Mede took the throne from the Babylonians – before Cyrus – just read the closing verse of chapter 5 and opening verse of chapter 6 in the book of Daniel
And please read my latest post addressing you
https://yourphariseefriend.wordpress.com/2015/05/10/daniel-7-and-acceptance-of-scripture-an-open-letter-to-bru/
Concerned Reader says:
May 9, 2015 at 9:37 pm
>>>>>Consider that in the opening of Daniel 9, Daniel calculates that the exile should be over, that it only should have lasted X number of years. HE’S BASING THIS OFF OF JEREMIAH. He prays to G-d with supplications asking G-d not to withhold his face and to have mercy for his own sake.
The problem I see…is that you have two visions with a common factore, the ending point of one(Jeremiah) having to do with the starting point of the other(Daniel’s vision)
JEREMIAH/70yrs—-Daniel’s vision…of restoration/function/Messiah
Daniel was concerned with the fact that Jeremiah’s vision had ended, and he had foretold that “AFTER” the return of the exiles and restoration was to take place, and the end of Jeremiah’s period had ended or was to end, and he did not see much going on concerning the full return of the Jews and an active restoration of the city….that is the common point in concern…
Now when the angel came in Daniel 9 he came to tell him about that common concern and what was to happen thereaftter…(from 522bc/Dan9 and forwards…this speak solely of the post babylonian restoration, temple and city in action, to the times of the coming of their Messiah
So just because they had common concerns…the fact that the present of Daniel is the MedoPersian times, the angel then addresses from that common concern of restoration as how was to take place…telling that from the “word telling to do this”, which is simply a command, a decree, in this case to restore the city..then from that point forwards the next prophetic timeline of 70 weeks needed to be understood.
Dan 10:12 Then said he unto me, Fear not, Daniel: for from the first day that thou didst set thine heart to understand, and to chasten thyself before thy God, thy words were heard, and I am come for thy words.
Dan 10:14 Now I am come to make thee understand what shall befall thy people in the latter days: for yet the vision is for many days.
Dan 10:21 But I will shew thee that which is noted in the scripture of truth(THE RESTORATION, WHAT WAS TO BEFALL TO THE JEWS IN THE LATER DAYS, V.14): and there is none that holdeth with me in these things, but Michael your prince.
And from there in Daniel 10…we then move on to Dan. 11-12 what eventually the Angel explained…
which again starts with the times of the MedoPersian times…….further details…and more…
actually in Dan. 11-12 he keeps moving on all the way to the time of the end….and the end…
>>>>G-d sends him this terrible vision, that he doesn’t understand, so an angel explains it. IT ISNT ABOUT MESSIANIC PROPHESY, ITS ABOUT DANIEL ASKING HASHEM WHY ISRAEL’S EXILE HASN’T ENDED YET.
Nobody is denying tha that was Daniel concerns in DAn. 9, which is 522BC..even Cyrus had died by this point, and the order had come out for restoration of the temple and exiles to go back…but things were not moving well…(then Darius by 519BC got things going again, and then Arta in 457before order the restoration of the city/nation, giving them religious political powers that got the nation moving once again…that is why we think that is the culminating decree that describes total restoration and which led to accomplish what was foretold…Israel once again a nation under God..
The issue in question is that the Angel came in Daniel 9 and further on in Daniel 10 to tell him what was to come….”for yet the vision is for many days” into the future. Taking in consideration what the date of the vision of Daniel 9(as 522bc) it is then obvious that the angel’s warning are telling him that the events foretold in the vision are in the future…(not going back to Bab. times as many here do)… No…the 70weeks(483 years) of Daniel 9, as told also in Daniel 10,11-12, all of them are telling Daniels that the prophecy is what is “to befall to the Jews in the later days” avision “for many days”, up to the point that by Dan. 12..Daniel is told to calm down….that he was to die..
and likely not see what has being foretold…. and was not to understand much of it also…
Why? Why was not Daniel to know it all or see it all… because even the start of the timelines and other events were to happen after his death…and in fact that information, although for His comfort as relevant to what he might understand..the fact is that much of it was not for his understanding…most of the prophecies of Daniel had a different public…and it is told right there=
(as such they remained closed…sealed)=
HE WANTED TO KNOW….
Dan 12:8 And I heard, but I understood not: then said I, O my Lord, what shall be the end of these things?
A LOT OF THE BOOK CLOSE/SEALED TILL THE TIME OF THE END( WITH THE AID OF REVELATIONS OPEN THE UNDERSTANDING OF DANIEL… AND THE KNOWLEDGE OF HAS INTENSIFIED DURING THE VERY TIME OF THE END, OUR TIMES…=
Dan 12:9 And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.
MEANWHILE GOOD AND WICKED WILL DO…BUT THE WISE SHALL UNDERSTAND
Dan 12:10 Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.
……
DANIEL WAS TO DIE…..AND BE RESURRECTED TO RECEIVED HIS LOT….
Dan 12:13 But go thou thy way till the end be: for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at the end of the days.
Daniel was told he will not see much of what the visions were foretelling…
but these visions brought comfort to him, and certainly the restoration of His people as to be done by the Medopersian was assured and their Messiah to come was foretold…starting from the decree to restore the Jerusalem.. and many others things remain hidden from him..and yes from others…until our times the time of the end…(actually Revelation opens a lot of Daniel…so since this times in the first century much started to be opened…but us the generation of the time of the end…it was for us that those prophecies were given, for our benefit, as a testimony to know who is the real Messiah, and what is to befall us…what is coming our way…
Why so?….
I guess we will have to ask God when we see HIm!!
How do you come up with Cyrus being Dead. Daniel 9 is asking about returning and rebuilding, which obviously wasn’t happening.
In Ezra we read that Cyrus wrote his “Cylinder”, which is housed in the British Museum. Obviously this Cyrus is After Daniel’s speaking with Gabriel, otherwise Daniel wouldn’t have been praying in the first place.
Yes, during this vision of Daniel 9, the reigning is Darius the Mede which was the first MedoPersian ruler, by this time the Babylonian desolation had ended…likely shortly thereafter the order to the return of exiles was given… but not much movement took place..
Cyrus dies shortly after in 530bc…
thanks for the correction.
The point Bru is that the son of David is not the moshiach figure spoken of in any of the cases in Daniel 9. If Daniel had wished to speak of Israel’s future King’s coming, he would have said, Melech Hamashiach, or David, or “a star,” or any other common messianic epithet in commbination. Instead he uses the generic terms moshiach NAGID (an anointed ruler) and Moshiach (an anointed who is cut off.) As mentioned, Karet (the word for Cut off) is a word used to refer to the death of a wicked man under punishment for his sins against G-d. This figure can’t be Jesus, because Jesus was believed to be righteous.
Consider the fact also, that no gospel author uses the Daniel 9 passage you refer to about “moshiach being cut off,” to refer to Jesus, although they do use the abomination of desolation allusions. It is curious that if Jews saw this verse as having a messianic overtone that this verse isn’t used by the gospel writers.
The point Bru is that the son of David is not the moshiach figure spoken of in any of the cases in Daniel 9.
But the son of any king has to await to be crowned as such…
So the Messiah that was coming…(son of David), was to come before been crowned king..so the prophecy says…and so it did. All through Daniel’s prophecy, He presents the Messiah to come as a Prince…(which other prophets may refer to his later crowned state) but Daniel the writer we are discussing…refers to Jesus as the Prince of the Covenant…Not after crowned in heaven around the end of time…then He will received His kingdom…
>>If Daniel had wished to speak of Israel’s future King’s coming, he would have said, Melech Hamashiach, or David, or “a star,” or any other common messianic epithet in commbination.
Certainly if he wanted he could after all he could have refer to his later status…but he did not… which means that he chose to present him as Prince…Prince of Princes, Prince of the Host, Michael your Prince, Prince of the Covenant….all references to the Messiah…
and the duality that we have having him presented as the Messiah Princed here on earth, yet the Son of man which gets crowned in heaven….all this speaks of the duality of the Messiah as both Divine and human….
>>Instead he uses the generic terms moshiach NAGID (an anointed ruler) and Moshiach (an anointed who is cut off.)
He was anointed and He was presented alsoi as a ruler…which although as you say ‘are generic terms”, that does not means that his mission was generic…in fact far from that…
There is problem of understanding, when we failed to see the Messiah Nagid for what He accomplished… that is an error. Because what this Messiah does..is what makes Him …The Messiah…
>>As mentioned, Karet (the word for Cut off) is a word used to refer to the death of a wicked man under punishment for his sins against G-d. This figure can’t be Jesus, because Jesus was believed to be righteous.
But Jesus was believed to be much more than that..
He was believe to carry upon himself our sins…
He became sin
so that we could be sinless…
it is part of the New Covenant Paradigm…that I realize it is hard for you as Jews to famthom… Yet it certainly would be easy for you to understand Jesus “sins”… if you could think about your expiatory lamb for example…how although spotless herself…yet the sinner put all his sins on her head, then killed her…and her blood found pardon for the sinner…but nevertheless require the death of the lamb….as such Jesus carries our sins, and died to cleanse us from our sins…but He Himself became sin in the process… that is why He had to die…The fact is through the ages, sin had required blood to find pardon…
so was in the book of Genesis, then from Exodus forwards, and finally Jeus blood which as an oath and promise gave meaning to the OT sacrifices (because believe me it was not the blood of the animal which expiated, it was what that blood represented that did the job, as finding meaning in the oath and promise of the Messiah to come)yet His own blood has found pardon for you and me when we kneel and ask pardon… whether the person knows it or not…So it is Jesus blood who has found pardon for all of us through the ages..certainly initially as God’s promise and oath…later on the actual blood of the Messiah..
Why so much blood?
because the sentence was given…you sin…you die…and irrevocably sentence…
but the shedding of the blood of the lamb, as finding meaning in the blood of Christ cleansed the sinner in the OT from all sin…an his actual blood, finds pardon back and forwards..
>>>>Consider the fact also, that no gospel author uses the Daniel 9 passage you refer to about “moshiach being cut off,” to refer to Jesus, although they do use the abomination of desolation allusions. It is curious that if Jews saw this verse as having a messianic overtone that this verse isn’t used by the gospel writers.
Isa 53:5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.
,Isa 53:7 ,,****,he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter****
Isa 53:8 …. for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.
This same concept is told..in Joh for example=
Joh 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.
1Co 15:3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
Heb 13:20 Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant,
Heb 13:21 Make you perfect in every good work to do his will, working in you that which is wellpleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.
Bru, none of your explanations fit the given context of the verse. You are eisogeting that this verse must be about one figure who you believe must be (Moshiach Ben David,) when it is clearly mentioning 3 Ttotally different people in the grammar of this verse. I’m not saying this to be disrespectful to you, I’m merely noting that you are reading the text as a typology, rather than actually listening to what the text is telling you directly.
The context is that There is an anointed ruler who comes after 49 years, (a gentile King) another one who comes after 62 7s who s CUT OFF, and then the prince of the people who destroy the sanctuary, (whom we know from history as Titus.) There just aren’t any references to the son of David, the King of Israel in Daniel 9. You are imputing meaning that isn’t actually stated plainly, and that’s a problem.
I’ll put my responses together into one.
What you call “simple mathematics” doesn’t answer the question, Why? As has been said No one, in any language WRITES like that. Nowhere else in Tanach is a format as such. Therefore, the question remains, Why?. The answer is simple, It is written That way because it is what Daniel was told, there are 7 weeks and then after the 7 weeks there are 62 weeks. Each has its own association of an event. We know this because the text says, After (THE) 62 weeks. not after (THE) 69 weeks (v26). In case you dispute this the word there DOES have the letter (Hey) before it, thus saying THE.
It is apparent you are using the text AFTER a conclusion has already been reached in order to read the text to FIT that conclusion. It is why you say,
“What you do not see, that everything He did was based in the fact that He had by a promise and an oath offered the New Covenant, which in fact is the Abrahamic Covenant,
even the Adamic covenant….the offering of the “seed” that was to come to solve the sin problem… the atonement of all”
You see, you have made an assumption and are construing the text to Reflect that assumption, even though your version has issues with the actual Hebrew. You have done the exact same with referencing Isaiah 53.
In all these cases of weeks you have consistently Avoided the 70th week. No doubt we know why. It is quite obvious that 70th week concerns the Temple’s destruction. For your timeline to be true there would Not be 70 weeks but more like 75 weeks, adding about 35 years to the time you assign to anointed being cut off. You have consistently put a gap between that 69 and 70 by IGNORING IT, especially when you refer to that week by THIS: (AFTER THIS AND THAT IS GOING TO HAPPEN…THAT IN FACT DOES NOT SAY WHEN…) and (anywhere AFTER THE 62 WEEKS, AFTER THE ARRIVAL OF THE MESSIAH WHICH WAS THE ONE THAT CAME AT THE END OF THE 62 WEEKS)
So in effect you are saying we MUST combine the 7 and 62, but dismiss the final week by saying it can happen at any time. How convenient. But what does it actually SAY. You fail to reconcile that it say SEVENTY WEEKS. Seventy means seventy.
I would assume that, if you native language is Spanish, and you understand English you should be aware of the nuances in differing languages. When speaking in English a person does not say “This is box”. They would say, “This is (a) box”. The nuance of Hebrew is that the use of (a) is understood. For the same reason you can’t say “I (am)”. On the other hand if the speaker is directly referencing an object of a sentence then using “THE” would required. Without the use of “THE” (the letter Hey) it is referencing “a” messiah”. And so it is with the Sixty-Two weeks. It is, in my opinion, really sloppy translating when words are omitted that DO effect the way it is understood in that language. Using the Tanach from Chabad website, here are the relevant words (וְאַחֲרֵי הַשָּׁבֻעִים ) This letter (הַ ) is “THE”. This is WHY you should NOT try and gain understanding by using that Strong’s Concordance. It is NOT a substitute for “KNOWING” a language.
April 22, 2015 at 10:57 pm
<< 27ad
457bc + 7wks.62weeks -> 27ad
457bc + 483 years -> 27ad / as the arrival of the Messiah
Hopefully the above timeline is not erased by your format… but in case it does it…
so I will put it in writing below=
four hundreds fifty seven BC plus sixty nine weeks (four hundred eighty three years) bring us to twenty seven AD, which is the time of Jesus arrival as the Messiah…
THE FACT THAT THE ABOMINATION.DESOLATION/DESTRUCTION OF YOUR CITY AND TEMPLE DID TAKE PLACE IN 70 AD, AND THE FACT THAT THE VISION OF DANIEL 9 ALSO SAYS THAT THE MESSIAH WAS TO ARRIVE PREVIOUS TO THIS TIME FURTHER CONFIRMS THE FACT THAT YOUR MESSIAH HAS ALREADY ARRIVED… AND THE 70 WEEKS TIMELINE, ITS INITIAL 69 WEEKS/483 YEARS, WHEN STARTING FROM THE DECREE TO RESTORE JERUSALEM OF 457BC THEN BRING US TO JESUS AS YOUR MESSIAH…AS SHOWN ABOVE… A SOBERING THOUGHT IF YOU ASK ME!!!
>>Did any of these things happen after your jesus died? Has iniquity been erased from Israel as this verse states concerning “your people”? (Which refer’s to Israel, Daniel’s people.) Do you still sin?
Friends it really shows that you do not understand the mission of the Messiah…which was the same of your spotless lamb that took your sins and found pardon for you… That leaves the sinner free of sin…and end to sin as foretold…
>>>We both know that jesus’s death accomplished none of this…
If you do not know it… that is one thing…
because I do know He did…and He is still doing it…
>>>So the question becomes, why in the world would you associate the promises of Daniel 9:24 with jesus’s death?! It is clear that jesus’s death did not accomplish any of these promises of the end of transgression among Israel or any other people.
You need to see Jesus as the lamb of God that takes away the sins of the world…
then and only then you will understand…
and by the way…why do you think your Messiah was to be cut off as a wicked man?
isn’t it strange that the person promised to you… was to die…?
>>So why do you insist that jesus must be this “moshiach” mentioned in Daniel 9:26?
Because He is!!!
Because the fact that a simple understanding of your timelines bring us to Him as our Messiah!! yours and mine!!!
>>It is interesting to note that Jews and Christians can agree on other passages referring exclusively to the Messiah! Here are a few:
Isaiah 11:1. And a shoot shall spring forth from the **STEM OF JESSE,** and a twig shall sprout from his roots.
Ezekiel 37:24. And **MY SERVANT DAVID** shall be king over them, and one shepherd shall be for them all, and they shall walk in My ordinances and observe My statutes and perform them.
Hosea 3:5. Afterwards shall the children of Israel return, and seek the Lord their God and **DAVID THEIR KING,** and they shall come trembling to the Lord and to His goodness at the end of days.
Jeremiah 30:9. And they shall serve the Lord their God and **DAVID THEIR KING,** whom I will set up for them.
There is one thing all of these verses have in common: They all use a “Davidic qualifier,” meaning that they all exclusively refer to the Davidic dynasty in some fashion. This is a good reason why Jews and Christians can all understand that these future prophesies refer to one person: Moshiach ben David.
Wow..I think I saw this post sometime before…
here we go again…
Yes Jesus is going to return in glory as King of kings and Lord of lords…
but before He had to redeem us..and He did at His first coming..
you see prophecies addresses different events in the Messiah’s life..
Those prophecy that speak of his suffering and death, Danie 9 and the suffering Servant of Isaiah 53 refers to His first coming and His expiatory death…atoning death…
But those prophecies that speak of His second coming refer to HIm as the Messiah King…
The fact that the Messiah died (as told in Daniel 9) should tell you that all is not glory in the life of your Messiah… You have chosen to ignore His death, and you have glorified His kingdom….
but if you do not understand it…that is your own doing!
Just to remind us all… the wedding of the church to the her husband God…
has as a type the Ancient Jewish Wedding, in which a series of events took place as follows=
the bethrothal = as the FIRST COMING of the Messiah Jesus
the groom returns to His father house in heaven to make a home for His bride(the church) there..
then He returns to fecht her and take her with Him to His father’s house in heaven= 2ND COMING
(Revelation tells us that after the Millennium Jesus and His bride the Church are to return back to earth in the Holy City/The New Jerusalem that descends from heaven…another chapter in the life of the newlyweds…)
>>But Daniel 9:24-27, nor the rest of the chapter, give us any indication that this “moshiach” mentioned has any connection to the Davidic dynasty, at least at face value…
If a prophecy is telling of an specific event in the life of the Messiah… why would you expect that another event should be superimpose in it. Seems that we are forgetting that many prophecies are specific of an specific event…and in reality to get the whole picture in the life of the Messiah, all the prophecies need to be placed together as pieces of the puzzle to get the whole picture and you are not doing that… In fact the whole Bible has this background in mind…the conflict of the ages between Christ/his.people and Satan(Spiritual Antichrist)/his people….so in order to get the whole picture…one needs to start from Genesis and end with Revelation…(the NT gives us the final events..as well)….
from fall to salvation(justification, sanctification) and final glorification of the saints..
yet everlasting doom for the wicked…
>>This lend credibility to the Jewish position that this “moshiach who was cut off” in Daniel 9:26 is not the promised Messiah son of David who is spoken of in the four aforementioned passages above that both Jews and Christians agree refer to the specific individual called “Moshiach ben David.”
The Messiah that died redeeming us…is the only Messiah that has the right to save us, coming in glory, in power and much majesty!!!
>>>In fact, the word “moshiach” is NEVER used to exclusively refer to the individual of “Moshiach ben David” in the Tanach…Ever! Usually, the individual of Moshiach ben David is referred to as “David” or “melech/king.”
Again, these are all different yet related events in the life of the Messiah…
because dying in our place He find pardon for our sentence..
then that means that He can give us the kingdom prepare for us from the beginning…
One man sinned/Adam and brought us all death…
One man died and brought us all (those that accept it) life eternal…
>>>So your interpretation of Daniel 9:26 actually runs contradictory to the rest of scripture…
You are forgetting that the rest of the scripture also includes Isaiah 53/THE SUFFERING SERVANT, and multiple allusions about sin resulting in death…and since we ALL have sinned..our sentence is death..as told by God…and God does not change His sentences…but God is smart, He found a way that His law/jdugments are ikept binding, and at the same time show mercy to us sinners, one thing not eliminating the other..
and the only way possible is that He as our creator and sinless one took our place…
he died, so that we need not die…as simple and as great as that…!!!
GODS LOVE…JUSTICE AND MERCY IN ONE…
HIS DEATH IS FORETOLD.. MESSIAH BEN JOSEPH..THE SUFFERING SERVANT…
HIS VICTORY IS KNOWN…MESSIAH BEN DAVID…THE CONQUERING KING…
Don’t ever think that a person or nation could expiate their own sins…
because the expiatory lamb has to be spotless…perfect…
and which man can you say that has not sinned…
answer= none
Only the Son of Man…seen in heaven in Daniel 9 has conquered and now sit to right hand of the Ancient of Days-God, as our expiatory lamb and mediatory High Priest, finding pardon for our sins… already in the trial phase of His Antitypical Heavenly Yom Kipur, the heavenly trial during which the books are open and your actions and mine are being judged! At the end of this judgment probation closes for all at the personal level…as seen in Daniel…and then He will be crowned and He will receive His kingdom…and His people…coming for His bride as King of kings and Lord of Lords…Come Lord Jesus!!!
Today is the day… is your day…is mine day…. we are all in this personal probationary time, during which (just like for Israel as the national level, were given 70 weeks probation, to accept or reject the New covenant that their Messiah was offering that last 70th week/27ad to 34 ad)..) we are granted all this time to choose, all this freedom to choose…but the date is coming and it is soon that that Judgment that Daniel 8 and Daniel 7 shows taking place in heaven …that trial will end and the verdicts of each and every one of us given….
what will be our lot? It is simply our choice!!! Salvation is a gift…but needs to be accepted by faith!!
Today is the day to choose life…why choose death..?
Christ is life!!! Life eternal!!!
Why choose death because this or that, this position, this inheritance, this nationality or the other possessions comes first….. than the offer/gift that a most lonely Son of man, rejected by most of His own, and most of all others have offered …His life, so that we may live?
Does not make sense!! But what makes sense about man???
Is THIS how you rebut incontrovertible facts and analysis, by answering posts going back YEARS.
(April 22, 2015 at 10:57 pm
< 27ad
457bc + 483 years -> 27ad / as the arrival of the Messiah)
Is Daniel asking about Messiah. No he is NOT. He is asking about 70 weeks. What happened to that 70th week. What is 70CE – 27CE. Certainly it is NOT ONE WEEK, but MANY WEEKS. Therefore you are absolutely WRONG using 457BCE. The easiest way to find the beginning is by STARTING from a point in time we DO know, 70CE – 490 years. What we ALL DO KNOW is WHEN the Temple was destroyed. And the text Does use the Temple as One Point of that Timeline.
Therefore, in the most simplest of analysis it is proved beyond any doubt that your Jsus simply does NOT fit into that timeline. In your methodology you have to completely ignore PART of the timeline.
That post in particular I saw it at the end of the page…so I answered…I did notice it was old…thought somebody had re-posted it…
(some other posts at the beginning that I had not read, I was reading them for the first time and did say a few short things…)
Concerning this timeline..
457bc + 483 years -> 27ad / as the arrival of the Messiah)
you wrote
>>Is Daniel asking about Messiah. No he is NOT.
Daniel was asking of what was to come to the his people and his city, considering the Babylonian empire had ended. It so happens that the answer came about certainly about their future, and about their Messiah(which was part of them too..) told that their Messiah was also to come!
So…by asking about what was to come to their people, God gave them key information of what the Messiah was to do for His people…the Jews…the people of Daniel’s concern!
>> What is 70CE – 27CE. Certainly it is NOT ONE WEEK, but MANY WEEKS.
That is the product of the errors that your format introduces…
or I do not know where you copy it from, because I do not use “CE”…but certainly does not make sense.!
70 AD/CE = the roman abomination.desolation of the city and temple.
70 weeks ( 490 yrs )= the period allotted to your people and city, (Dan.7:24)
27ad= is an specific date of the arrival of the Messiah, obtained when one count 69 weeks from the time of the decree to restore Jerusalem of 457bc.
457b + sixty.nine/wks(483 years) –> 27 ad
SAME AS…
– 457(bc) + 483 yrs = 27 ad
>>>Therefore you are absolutely WRONG using 457BCE. The easiest way to find the beginning is by STARTING from a point in time we DO know, 70CE – 490 years.
ok….lets see if what you say is better….those 70 weeks(490 years) as having its ending point in 70ce/ad/roman.abom.des.
you are going from
ending point = 70ad(CE) which is the abom.desolation of Jerusalem by the Romans
the timeline is = 490 years
starting point then being= ??? (WORD/DECREE, so the vision says) = as the beginning Point…
you are saying in fact that =
???/decree + 70weeks (four hundreds and ninety yrs) –> 70ce/ad
490 – 70 = 420 bc/bce
You have the date of the decree as being 420 ad…as follows
decree 420bc/bce + 490 yrs –> 70ad
note= your computation above, does keeps the continuity of the 490 years timeline,
but it has a couple of problems…which is that is starting point as being 420bce as you say is not associated with any word or decree to restore Jerusalem, in fact by this point in time (420bc/bce) the restoration of Jerusalem was very much underway and the decrees which were given by the MedoPersians to command this post-Babylonian restoration of the city and temple, had being given long before of your date of 420bce
As such…. by this date all the decrees had being given previously ( which were Cyrus/539bc/ Darius/519bc and Arta/457bc,)…
Therefore such that starting point of the timeline (420bc) you said, does not agrees with the historical records..when when the WORDS/DECREES were given…
>>>What we ALL DO KNOW is WHEN the Temple was destroyed. And the text Does use the Temple as One Point of that Timeline.
Not so easy….
the destruction of the temple(abom.des.) is told solely to take place AFTER the 62 weeks which is a nonspecific time period, which means anywhere from the 70 weeks forwards
anywhere from the arrival of the Messiah at the end of the 62 weeks (same as end of the 60 weeks), his week or 70th week and any time there after…So in fact the vision does not localizes the point in time of the destruction of the temple, except for saying that was to take place AFTER the arrival of the Messiah…Which means that your Messiah has already arrived according to Daniel 9….
>>>Therefore, in the most simplest of analysis it is proved beyond any doubt that your Jsus simply does NOT fit into that timeline. In your methodology you have to completely ignore PART of the timeline.
You favor a 420b/bce date for the decree/Word..when no decree was given that date and the city was already well advanced in its restoration…
and yet,
you do not accept the decree of 457bec/bce which is a historically and biblically documented of a decree to order the restoration of the city, given by Artaxerxes and well documented in Ezra 7…
tell me why??? why 420bc when no decree was given, yet rejecting as starting point of the timeline the decree of 457 bc…?
especially when the ending point you gave of 70ad, is not localized in the prophecy itself to fix the ending point…
In fact both the decree and starting point and ending points are defined in the timeline..
what is not defined is the roman abom.des. which is told to take place AFTER …after the arrival of the Messiah at the end of the 62 weeks (same as at the end of the 69 weeks)
when this weeks relationships is understood, which is that first come 7 weeks, then 62 weeks, and finally the 1 week=
as such=
7wks 62wks (A)1 wk = 70 weeks …AFTER ABOM.DES.
THE MESSIAH arriving(A) at the end of the 62 weeks beginning of the 1 week (70th week)…see above..
ABOM.DES/ROMANS. = TO TAKE PLACE “AFTER 62 WEEKS”, THE SAME AS AFTER THE ARRIVAL OF THE MESSIAH…POINT (A)…ANY WHERE THEREAFTER…
THE END OF THE 70 WEEKS, IS DEFINED solely as the end of confirmation of the New Covenant by the Messiah, the end of the 70 weeks alloted to the Jews…the end of probation……
the end of the 70 weeks…has nothing to do with the re-abom.des by the Romans in 70 ad… which in fact is only foretold to take place AFTER the Messiahs arrival… an indeterminate time period !!!
Okay, you are grasping the issue I raised and the question that results.
{ you are saying in fact that =
???/decree + 70weeks (four hundreds and ninety yrs) –> 70ce/ad
490 – 70 = 420 bc/bce
You have the date of the decree as being 420 ad…as follows
decree 420bc/bce + 490 yrs –> 70ad}
EXACTLY. This link, that the Rabbi posted, gives the Jewish dates. These do not comport with secular dating. The Jewish dating in these matters rely on Seder Olam. It is also well known that there is the history of each generation which secular historians haven’t the benefit of.
http://www.starways.net/lisa/essays/heifetzfix.html
As a result those 490 years, counting back from around 70 DO takes us to about 420, Which is the time of Cyrus giving his edict. There are two things we can take into account. We do Know that the Temple’s destruction was around 70. We can ascertain from scripture that Cyrus was called a Mashiach and was directed By G-d in His matters. See Is 44:28-45:1 / Ezra 1:1-3 / Ezra 4:3-5 / Ezra 5:13 / Ezra 6:3,14-15 / Chronicles II 36:22,23. It was Only Cyrus that was directed by G-d Himself and Cyrus acknowledged it to be true.
Correction of above post=
was written=
….the Messiah arrives at the end of the 62 weeks (same as end of the*** 60 weeks****),
should read/corrected=
….the Messiah arrives at the end of the 62 weeks (same as end of the ***69 weeks***)
Bru You have some audacity telling those who are loyal to God and His word that we are “forgetting the rest of Scripture.” Look how many pages on this blog are devoted to explaining the selected passages that your Church has manipulated to support their idolatry. It is you and your Church who consistently ignores any passage in Scripture that refutes your theology. It is not only passages of Scripture that you forget – but it is the heart and soul of Scripture that you violate with your devotion to Jesus. The Scripture is a book about the covenant between God and His firstborn son –and the theology that you are promoting – in the name of this same Scripture no less – is the deepest violation of that covenant imaginable.
yourphariseefriend says: >>Bru You have some audacity telling those who are loyal to God and His word that we are “forgetting the rest of Scripture.”
Friend, you are taking things out of context…
I am not denying your loyalty to God and His word…only God knows your heart and mine…
A said that he was forgetting the suffering servant and forgetting the rest of the scriptures that reference to Him and being the same person that the Messiah ben David…
that he did…and many of you do not accept that relationship…
so please you are taking things out of context and saying things that I never said or implied!!!
>>Look how many pages on this blog are devoted to explaining the selected passages that your Church has manipulated to support their idolatry.
Why do you think I am here, sharing what I believe? if it is not because I do believe you are God’s people, and that each person is a pearl before the Lord… Do you thing that I would have being in this site if you were not diligent students of His Word, and in the process besides sharing what I believe is the truth learn form you…
That your King Achab and Jezebel did the most hidious idolatry in your midst, that does not mean that God did not have a great number of people that had no bow down before those images. Just because we are christians that does not mean that a Jezebel in our midst means that all christians are apostates…
Let me clarify something…my church the SDA church never has endorse idolatry or the breaking of the Sabbath, or the law of God as non-binding.. you apparently do not know our church..otherwise you would not have spoken as such…
Now I am speaking of doctrines…
simply because good and bad people are in every church…even yours…as well as mine…
but the doctrines of the SDA church do not support idolatry as you said…
>>>t is you and your Church who consistently ignores any passage in Scripture that refutes your theology. It is not only passages of Scripture that you forget – but it is the heart and soul of Scripture that you violate with your devotion to Jesus.
That Jesus that you reject is the one called in your Bible Michael your Prince, the one that stand for your people, the prince of the Covenant…which according to your own prophecy in Daniel 9 came before 70ad(destrution of the your city and temple, by the Romans)….
as such your Messiah already came…
that He is God that became man…should be of no surprise to you since in Gen.1 creation was done by an “US”=
Gen 1:26 And God said, Let US make man in our image,….
HE is the Son of man described in heaven coming before God the Ancient of Days…
and recibing His kingdom, crowned right there in heaven….which He is to share with His people…believers in Him..
Dan 7:13 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.
Dan 7:14 And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.
There is nothing you or I can do to stop this coronation…
He came as the Messiah Nagid, and did died as He was foretold…for the sins of His people He died…for His people are those that accept HIm….
Isa 53:5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.
<<<The Scripture is a book about the covenant between God and His firstborn son –and the theology that you are promoting – in the name of this same Scripture no less – is the deepest violation of that covenant imaginable.
Please, if you thing that you by being a Jew are the only ones favor by God… I will just tell you that you are wrong. Even gentiles have being grafted in the OT (eg. Ruth the Moabite, actually the grandmother of your much beloved King David), and in the NT the same goes on…all part of the children of God..the Israel of Faith….
And talking about the covenants… which Jeremiah well speaks of the New one to come, and you already new of the Old. It will be good to come to terms with the following realities… which are=
1) the Prince of the Covenant that was to confirm the New Covenant, did came already before 70ad/abom.des …as the prophecy of Daniel 9 tell us…
2) When a New Covenant is ratified by the the Messiah that already came, according to Daniel 9…the Old Covenant becomes invalid…
I ask you… which covenant have we violated according to you???
if you did not accepted the New Covenant…and the Old Covenant ended…
which covenant are you talking that you have not broken and yet you are saying that we have broken?
A)
The New Covenant and Messiah already here…(Dan. 9)
B)
and the Old Covenant of sacrifices and oblation having cease…cease (Dan. 9)
What does all that means…???
Keep your eyes in this prophecy=
Dan 9:27
And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week:
and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease,
and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, (70ad/Rome)…
Since the Messiah came before the abomination desolation of 70ad(Roman)
therefore the Messiah came before 70ad(before the destruction by the romans of the 2nd temple and city in 70ad)….and….
since when He came He confirmed the New Covenant(which He ratified with His blood)…
and in the process He cause the Old Covenant of sacrifice and oblation to ceases..(END)…
What covenant are we violating that you are keeping?
The New Covent …is it yours…?
The Old Old Covenant/sacrifices and oblation… how can you if it ended?
The truth is that everybody knows that a New Testament (New Covenant) when written and dated and signed with blood, overrides the Old Covenant/the Old Testament which then becomes void…as such it did.. simply so because the prophecy says that Messiah already came before the destruction of the city and temple in 70ad by the Romans (the abomination desolation)…and He did what He was to accomplished as foretold, ratify the New Covent and make to cease the Old Covenant of sacrifices and oblations…
The question remains….who is violating what????
Bru
I would love to reply to the manifold errors that your response is filled with – but I realize that it will only induce you to write a more lengthy response so I will limit myself to one point (I have already addressed all of your errors in different posts on this blog).
The idolatry that your Church endorses is the devotion to Jesus that you are advocating. That is the deepest violation of the covenant that stands between Israel and God and between every human and his/her Creator.
I imagine that you believe in the maxim – do unto others as you would have done unto yourself. – This being the case – please read what I wrote on this blog on this subject – I didn’t cut and paste but I spent the time writing these articles for people who were misled such as yourself. I wrote many articles on this subject but I will just give you one for now https://yourphariseefriend.wordpress.com/2011/05/26/isaiah-222/
You made this statement
“Don’t ever think that a person or nation could expiate their own sins…
because the expiatory lamb has to be spotless…perfect…
and which man can you say that has not sinned…”
Well, what does the Bible say on this matter. From Proverbs 16:
6) With loving-kindness and truth will iniquity be expiated, and through fear of the Lord turn away from evil.
You see, all we need is Chesed (loving-kindness) and Emet (Truth).
Sharbano says:
May 11, 2015 at 12:16 pm
>>You made this statement
“Don’t ever think that a person or nation could expiate their own sins…
because the expiatory lamb has to be spotless…perfect…
and which man can you say that has not sinned…”
>>Well, what does the Bible say on this matter. From Proverbs 16: 6) With loving-kindness and truth will iniquity be expiated, and through fear of the Lord turn away from evil.
Pro 16:6 By mercy and truth iniquity is atoned for; And by the fear of Jehovah men depart from evil.
THE VERSE DOES NOT SAY WHO IS THE ONE ATONING WITH MERCY AND TRUTH.
IT only say that by mercy and truth iniquity is atone for…. but who has that mercy and truth, or where does it originate…? That is the question….
By the fear of Jehovah men departs from evil….but what is the origin of that fear?
Does the natural men naturally fears the Lord? Or is it that men chooses the Lord and He installs that fear in him which gives him the power to depart from evil?
AT THE HEART OF THE UNDERSTANDING OF THAT VERSE ….IS TO KNOW THE ORIGIN OF MERCY, TRUTH AND THE FEAR OF THE LORD? IF THE ORIGINAL MAN NATURALLY CAN BRING ALL THAT …THEN YOUR STATEMENT IS CORRECT…
but if natural man can not naturally originate mercy, truth and fear of the Lord…then we need to look to the real source and how He has obtain the position to do so???
Perhaps, a better way to understand who was to atone, re-conciliate man back to God…
(which is certainly not the sinner…)…is to see in which other verses is told who is the one to atone, as such the origin of mercy, truth and that install the fear of the Lord in us==
In the Old Covenant of Sacrifices and Oblations the blood made the atonement
In the New Covenant, it is the blood of Christ’s sacrifice which make atonement
Lev 17:11 For the life of the flesh is in the blood; and I have given it to you upon the altar to make atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh atonement by reason of the life.
Exo 29:36 And every day shalt thou offer the bullock of sin-offering for atonement: and thou shalt cleanse the altar, when thou makest atonement for it; and thou shalt anoint it, to sanctify it.
Lev 5:6 and he shall bring his trespass-offering unto Jehovah for his sin which he hath sinned, a female from the flock, a lamb or a goat, for a sin-offering; and the priest shall make atonement for him as concerning his sin.
In the OT was the promise and oath of the Messiah to come which was to die, HIS BLOOD, which gave meaning to the sacrificial blood OF ANIMALS….in so doing finding pardon…as such MERCY AND TRUTH, THE FEAR OF THE LORD WAS THE RESULT…
In the NT, was the reality of the blood of the Messiah that die as foretold which found pardon for the sinner both in the past and present…and not only that, also the power to not sinned was given to the sinner in that New Covenant…as such mercy and truth, and the Fear of the Lord was given to him…
Sinner not only finding pardon for him but also giving him the power to not sin..
It is by dying that we pay for our sins/that has being our sentence since Eden, as such the only escape to that sentence if solely found in somebody else shedding His blood in our place…come by somebody dying in our place..
Jer 31:31-34 Behold, the days come, saith Jehovah, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was a husband unto them, saith Jehovah. But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith Jehovah: “””I will put my law in their inward parts””(sanctification), and in their heart will I write it; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people: and they shall teach no more every man his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, Know Jehovah; for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith Jehovah: for “I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin will I remember no more”(JUSTIFICATION/PARDON).
THE PLAN OF SALVATION…is not …ok go and saved yourself…
The Plan of Salvation included the justification as finding pardon(by the blood of Jesus that took our place, so that we may live), and also we are given HIs Holy Spirit that write God’s law in or hearts, gives us power to not sin…the power to fear the Lord, have mercy and love truth…
The question remains…do we really love truth???
>>You see, all we need is Chesed (loving-kindness) and Emet (Truth).
But which loving kindness and truth….our own? or is it there a higher standard beyond us? All have sinned, we of ourselves cannot repair the broken relationship…
that is why Adam and Eve were given the promise and oath of the “seed” of the women that was to come and save us, pardoning us and transforming us…giving us the power unto sanctification…
All the plan of salvation, is written in the Sanctuary of Israel…
all of it….and basically included both pardoning justification by the blood of the sacrifice,
which in turn give us the Holy Spirit to change us from inside giving us the power to no sin… To think that we of ourselves can save us….
Goes against God ways….
simply because God ways are in His sanctuary…in what that sacrificial system represented as fulfilled in the NT…in the New Covenant confirmed and ratified by the Messiah that did came with His own blood…before 70ad, as the prophecy Dan. 9 tells us…
Psa 77:13 Thy way, O God, is in the sanctuary: Who is a great god like unto God?
You should read some Jewish literature. There are volumes regarding Chesed. It can be as how one treats their neighbor. etc. It is as simple as that.
As it says in Sefer Vayikra (Leviticus) “For I am the L-rd that brings you out of the land of Egypt, to be your G-d you shall therefore be holy, for I am Holy.”
Man Can be holy, otherwise G-d would not have said so.
If sacrifices were the answer then why would G-d say as in Hoshea 6:6 “For I desire Chesed, and not sacrifices, and knowledge of God more than burnt offerings.
Here it is the most important timeline yet messed up by the format of this page… here re-possted…
what is missing.. in the first sentence the date of the decree to restore the city of Jerusalem which was given in 457bc (decree that gave them religious political powers, beside its further reconstrution) and also removed is the number “sixty nine” weeks that are to be added to that decree to come to the date of arrival (UNTO) of the Messiah….
remember 69 weeks = 69 weeks x 7 day/week = 483 prophetic days = 483 years
(Eze 4:6 in which is told “a day for a year”) or directly representing weeks of years..
decree of restoration city = 457bc
decree/starting point + timeline –> date arrival of the Messiah
lets see if it goes away again with this format…=
It says that from the decree of 457bc adding sixty nine weeks (483 years) one arrives to the date of the Messiah Nagid.. as 27ad which is the date of arrival of the Messiah, when He was anointed by the Holy Spirit as a dove at the start of his ministry.=
decree/457bc + 69weeks(483 years) — > 27ad date of arrival of the Messiah/jesus
457bc + 69 weeks –> 27ad … as the foretold date of arrival of the Messiah… Jesus
457bc + 483 years –> 27ad .. as the foretold date of arrival of the Messiah…. Jesus
457bc + 7wks.62weeks -> 27ad
457bc + 483 years -> 27ad / as the arrival of the Messiah
certainly this format ….very selective of what it removes….but do not despair…
it can still be seeing there is a different way….this timeline is real and it is correct…
which is that from the decree to restore the city of Jerusalem of 457bc UNTO the arrival of the Messiah SHALL BE A total of 7WEEKS.62WEEKS…that is sixty nine weeks were to pass =
Dan 9:25 Know therefore and understand,
that from the going forth of the commandment(WORD/DECREE) to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince
shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks:
What happened to (SEVENTY) WEEKS.
In reality Daniel 9 presents a timeline within a timeline…
STARTING FROM THE DECREE TO RESTORE THE CITY=
7wks . 62 weeks. 1 week = 70 weeks
A)
TIMELINE = UNTO THE ARRIVAL OF THE MESSIAH…
TIMELINE= 7Wks.62WKS (SAME AS 69 WEEKS,) UNTO THE MESSIAH
FROM THE DECREE UNTO 69 WEEKS END (SAME AS 62 WEEKS ENDING) TIMELINE’S END, AT “THE END OF 62 WEEKS WHICH IS THE START OF THE 70TH WEEK,” THE MESSIAH NAGID arriving date =
DECREE + 7wks.62wks (=69 weeks) –> Arrival of the Messiah
the 69 weeks from the decree to restore the city (457bc) bring us to the arrival of the Messiah, his anointment by the Holy Spirit, as a dove, at the start of HIs ministry…
B)
TIMELINE = UNTO THE END OF THE MESSIAH’S MINISTRY/CONFIRMATION.ENDS
………………… “70TH WEEK ENDS”/SAME 70 WEEKS END.
TIMELINE = 70 weeks(490 years). YO INCLUDE THE LAST OR 70TH WEEK OF THE MESSIAH’S MINISTRY, DURING THE LAST OR 70TH WEEK…
While the 70 weeks are from the decree(457bc) bring us to the end of the Messiahs ministry of confirmation, the end of the 70th week (same as end of the 70 weeks)..
I’ve come to the conclusion you are simply obfuscating the matter. You acknowledge that after the 62 weeks refers to Jsus. In that same verse it speaks of the city destroyed and the Temple destroyed. You have based your ENTIRE premise on the fact that Daniel portrays this Jsus and you are unwilling and unable to reconcile the death of Jsus, by ALL accounts, was decades BEFORE the destruction.
I’ve encountered many methods of obfuscation by Xtans but this is a new one to me. Instead of changing the subject or ignoring the subject your method has been to repeat the same mistakes over and over and over again. When asked specifics you simply repeat again. I see no purpose in continuing in the face of repetition. It is apparent you are unable to answer the simplest of questions and aren’t interested in knowing why. One thing IS for certain. You will NOT be able to convince anyone here to follow the teachings of Your messiah.
I have such a way of making things complex…
Daniel 9, timeline within a timeline…= from the decree to restore forwards….
D – 7wks.62wks.1wk = 70 weeks
a) END 69 WEEKS.. = MESSIAH ARRIVES
= from the decree UNTO the end of the “69 weeks” = Messiah arrives…same as…
= from the decree UNTO the end of the “7wks.62wks”= Messiah arrives
= from the end of the 7wks UNTO the end of the 62wks = Messiah arrives
b) END 70 WEEKS = MESSIAH ENDS MINISTRY/CONFIRMATION/ END PROBATION
= from the decree UNTO the end of the “70 weeks”(time allotted Israel) to end probation.
= from the end of the 69 weeks UNTO the end of the NEXT/70th week of confirmation
FINALLY…
END 69 WEEKS.(from the decree)… MESSIAH ARRIVES
END 62 WEEKS (from the end of the 7 weeks)…. MESSIAH ARRIVES
END 70TH WEEK/CONFIRMATION =END OF 70 WEEKS/PROBATION
BR– My eyes are glazing over! How many times are going to post the SAME THING??? Dan 9 has zero to do with the nazarene! Give it up! There are 10,000 additional reasons he is not messiah, Dan 9 is one of the weakest arguments for the church. I cant believe this! Stop already!
Bless be the Lord…it did much better!!!
Bru, you are ignoring everything that’s been said about the context, idiom, and Grammar not mentioning The Messiah the son of David, and my point about “cutting off” being about the wicked individual.
Every verse that both Jews and Christians can agree refers to the messiah of David par excellence is always preceded by a Davidic qualifier, like “David will be their prince forever.” There is no Davidic qualifier in Daniel 9, so the term Moshiach of Daniel 9 is a generic title of several different people, not a unique figure. You are reading your conclusion into the text, rather than letting it speak for itself.
Jesus was not technically “on the scene” in AD 27 either in any meaningful teaching capacity. He died in 33 AD after a very short ministry. He would have preached in Israel from about 29 or 30 AD to 32AD. That’s 2 years before your calculations. DANIEL 9 as a result cant be about Jesus!
You are also ignoring the principle lesson of Daniel 9. DONT TRY TO CALCULATE TIMES. TIMES BELONG TO G-d NOT US.
Concerned Reader wrote >>>>Bru, you are ignoring everything that’s been said about the context, idiom, and Grammar not mentioning The Messiah the son of David, and my point about “cutting off” being about the wicked individual.
Not ignore them…
I just do not see them as problem…
because in reality nothing else fits well…
=.in order to follow your line of reasoning I have to have those 70 years divided by a huge gap….that is not a parameter that I follow in its understanding.
=also I do not agree with your starting point including the times of Babylon 70 yrs
instead I believe these are the times of the MedoPersians forwards..
= and your ending point, I also do not agree, because no where is the roman abom.des/ given as an ending point for any particular timeline, truth be told tt only says=
“AFTER” the end of the 62 weeks abomination desolations will take place.( That is a nonspecific time period…)
>>Every verse that both Jews and Christians can agree refers to the messiah of David par excellence is always preceded by a Davidic qualifier, like “David will be their prince forever.”
You are showing a one side(KINGSHIP) of the dual ministry of the Messiah, which is both a redeemer/atoning servant and Conquering King…
>>>There is no Davidic qualifier in Daniel 9,
and why is so?
simply because during this initial part of his ministry as Messiah, He is presented as a redeemer Messiah ben Joseph…. here he is dying for His people
meanwhile the “Davidic component/phase of His ministry refers to His later
return having being crowned and given His glorious kingdom..coming in glory to fetch his bride…
It is logical that one down phase (dying) when recorded or foretold, is not seen associated with the other much later phase of His ministry when He returns as a conquering King…Messiah ben David.
>>>so the term Moshiach of Daniel 9 is a generic title of several different people, not a unique figure. You are reading your conclusion into the text, rather than letting it speak for itself.
Messiah Nagid…He is not generic to me… what He accomplished as foretold in the same vision speaks of nothing generic about Him!!…but an special being… bringing atonement/reconciliation of us back to God…that is not an easy fete!!! There is where the text is speaking to me!!!
>>>Jesus was not technically “on the scene” in AD 27 either in any meaningful teaching capacity.
If Jesus dies in 31ad, as most people agree, and as the vision suggest…then we have history and prophecy agreeing… anyway + or – 1 year…I am not going to make a fuzz about it… this would mean that having a ministry of 3.5 years, this then bring us back to the starting point of HIs ministry as 27ad….
>>>>He died in 33 AD after a very short ministry.
Most people set the date of Jesus death around 30-31ad,
which will bring us to the starting point of His ministry 3.5 years before to 27ad…
also the set decree of 457bc, bring us to a foretold date of Jesus death in 31ad, in the midst of the 70th week (27ad to 34ad), any way…putting prophecy and historical concensus together, seems to me that a 31ad date for Jesus death is more sound…
than 33 ad as you say…
>>He would have preached in Israel from about 29 or 30 AD to 32AD. That’s 2 years before your calculations. DANIEL 9 as a result cant be about Jesus
Not so fast!!!
You are assuming that your are right that Jesus died in 33ad, when nor the prophecy and nor most of the historians favor that date…. that is not enough for me…
both the prophetic weight and the historical weight favor 30/31ad as the time of his death…
as such a more sound understanding…
>>You are also ignoring the principle lesson of Daniel 9. DONT TRY TO CALCULATE TIMES. TIMES BELONG TO G-d NOT US.
Wow…and that is the Bible according to whom???
In which verse says so?
And what do you think God wants us to do with the timelines and starting or ending points He provides? just ignore them?…
there is something very important, a very important purpose for those timelines which is to identify who is our Messiah in DAniel 9….
and who is the apostate Christian…Antimessiah…Antichrist in Daniel 8…
and from there know what has happened, what is happening and what is going to happen..
and provides knowledge so that we may not die… because my people perish for lack of knowledge…so says the Bible…
Just to give you a short understanding of who is the Antichrist…
keep in mind that the 2,300e.m/years of Daniel 8 have a common starting point with Daniel 9 (because this is an angelic explanation of the symbolic vision shown in Daniel 8)
except that Daniel timeline of 70 weeks(490 years) is in fact the first part of the 2,300 years timeline (therefore the common starting point, the date of decree 457bc)…
as such
1) TIMELINE= 2300 EVENING.MORNINGS
2.300 evening.mornings = 2,300 prophetic days(Gen. 1) = 2300 literal years(Ez.4:6)
1 prophetic day = 1 literal year (precedent= Eze. 4:6 and Num. 14:34)
2) STARTING POINT = 457 BC/MEDOPERSIAN TIMES/DECREE
3) ENDING POINT = 1844AD
4) INHABITANTS OF THIS 2300 YEARS TIMELINE=
i) 2 HORNED MEDOPERSIAN RAM,
ii) 1->4 HORNED GREEK HEGOAT
ii) UNKNOWN LITTLE HORN = ROME (by history, by following Greece, and by the relative greatnes..as follows)
5) RELATIVE GREATNESS OF THESE 3 EMPIRES=
MP/ram(great/v4) >>Greek.goat(very.great/v8) >>>>> little horn(exceedingly great/v9)
6) MEANING OF THE SYMBOLS=
animal/beast = kingdom/Dan. 7:23
horn= kingdom/nation = Dan. 8:21-22
king= kingdom= Dan. 8:20-22”
WHO IS THE LITTLE HORN= KINGDOM/EMPIRE OF ROME.
7) ROME PRESENTED AS HAVING TWO PHASES=
i) INITIAL HORIZONTAL CONQUERING PHASE ROMAN EMPIRE= CAESARS’ ROME
Dan 8:9 And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south(EGYPT), and toward the east(GREECE, EASTERN KINGDOMS), and toward the pleasant land(ISRAEL/ABOM.DES/70AD).
ii)LATER VERTICAL HEAVEN ATTACKING PHASE OF THE ROMAN EMPIRE= PAPAL ROME(Dan 8:10-12)= AKA THE ANTICHRIST
Dan 8:10-12 And it waxed great, even to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of “the host and of the stars”(PERSECUTE SAINTS/DAN. 8 :24) to the ground, and stamped upon them. Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host(CHRIST), and by him the daily….(MINISTRY OF PARDON) was taken away, and the place of his sanctuary(WHAT IS SYMBOLIZED THERE) was cast down. And an host was given him against the daily sacrifice by reason of transgression(SIN), and it cast down the truth(FALSE DOCTRINES AND FALSE LAWS/LIAR) to the ground; and it practised, and prospered.
THE TIMELINE….
D——2,300 YEARS——-> 1844AD END
R.-> G->L.Horn———–> 1844ad END
MP-G-ROME/C.PAPAL->1844AD End/2nd coming
D=DECREE, R=RAM=G=GOAT,LHORN=LITTLE HORN
MP=MEDOPERSIA, G=GREECE
ROME C. = ROME CAESARS
ROME PAPAL= THE ANTICHRIST LITTLE HORN, 2ND RELIGIOUS PHASE
THE ANTICHRIST = ROME/PAPAL PHASE=
A)
IDENTIFIED BY THE TIMELINE = AS RULING FROM ROME DURING THE MID AGES, WHICH IS THE LATER PART OF THE 2,300 YEARS(538AD TO 1798AD)…=
PAPAL ROME AS THE CONTINUATION OF THE ROMAN EMPIRE/2ND PHASE
B)
IDENTIFIED BY ITS ACTIONS= PERSECUTING GOD’S PEOPLE, DOCTRINAL LIES, CHANGING GOD’S LAW
JUST that the 2,300 years timeline identifies Papal Rome as the Antichist…
in like manner the 70 weeks timeline identifies Jesus as the the Christ/the Messiah Nagid
Also, Even if Jesus had been teaching in 27 AD that would have been before his messianic mission was known, even to his own students, so nobody could be reasonably expected to know that he was the subject of a vague prophecy in Daniel chapter 9. If this calculation of yours were clear the writers of the gospels would have used your proof. THEY DONT.
Concerned Reader…
and why do you think the first century was so in up roar awaiting their Messiah…
and that during this period, multiple Messiah’s arose….to blurr the true one..
could it be that history has being re-written…
Anyway…despite the significance this prophecy Daniel 9 had for the people in that first century ad… One thing is certain most of the prophecies of Daniel were sealed to be open today for an special purpose=
Dan 12:8-10
And I heard, but I understood not: then said I, O my Lord, what shall be the end of these things?
And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end. Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.
Dan 12:13 But go thou thy way till the end be: for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at the end of the days.
The time of the end, is define in a general an specific way, but mostly refers to the times after the end of the 2300 years in 1844ad, as foretold in the prophecy in Daniel 8, it is our modern times, and it is a key period told in the prophecy to be the time of the Antitypical heavenly Yom Kipur, or heavenly final judgment/trial taking place in heaven as shown in Daniel 7:9-10…right now as we speak!!
Dan 7:9 I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.
Dan 7:10 A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.
Soon that judgment would have given all its verdicts and our future would have being decided. Near the end of time, the kingdom of the Antichrist/Babylon the Great (The New World Order) which is Rome/Papal phase..the extension of the 4th empire/Rome of Daniel 7 to rule the world….Right now it is healing, reviving an returning with is abominations. desolations this time of the protestant churches…to extend to the whole world…
This conflict of Spiritual and human entities, will no longer be hidden…
Satan is given ever more full range of actions and access to the wicked …
Spiritual wicked entities in the air working with humans and planning together the take over of this world, in so doing persecuting God’s people. The Spiritual Antichrist Satan, will personate as if he were the Messiah (we will know who he is a false Christ, by the fact that he will endorse Sunday Worship, the false Sabbath, and say that God has changed His law, changing the 7th day Sabbath for Sunday…a big lie)
This is not science fiction…This will eventually climax at the Battle of Armageddon, in which The spiritual Antichrist/Satan and Human Antichrist/Papal.Rome and their people, will unite to try to destroy the saints and anybody else they do not like……but the saints will not be overcomed because they are liberated by their Messiah/Christ returning in glory to save His people….
and why do you think the first century was so in up roar awaiting their Messiah…
and that during this period, multiple Messiah’s arose….to blurr the true one..
could it be that history has being re-written…
Because anyone with a passing knowledge of Jewish history knows very well that there have been many different messiahs, and messiah claimants, etc. because, Jews want to see the redemption, and there isn’t a limit on redemptive figures who have an impact on the world.
Look at Obadiah 1:21. The word moshiach is a word that can refer to many people, NOT JUST ONE PERSON! Also, the timeline of Daniel 9 has been explained to you ad nausium. THE REASON Daniel 9 HAS A GAP IN THE TIMELINE IS BECAUSE IT IS NOT A CLEAR VISION THAT IS ATTEMPTING TO GIVE US A CLEAR PROPHETIC TIMETABLE. IT IS VAGUE AND UNCLEAR. you are expecting clarity from a vision that NOT EVEN DANIEL UNDERSTOOD OR SAW CLEARLY!
THATS WHY DANIEL ISNT INCLUDED IN THE PROPHETS, BUT IS IN THE WRITINGS SECTION OF TANAKH.
(Obadiah 1:21 http://biblehub.com/text/obadiah/1-21.htm)
I don’t that but the whole think is clear
1) the timeline does not have gaps as you say, simply because it is 70 weeks(490 years), and these 70 weeks are divided into 3 periods, that do not overlap or fall short to form a gap… as such 7weks + 62 weeks + 1 week…gives you exactly 70 weeks, no more and no less…no overlapping or with a gap…
2) the timelines are told to have specific starting and ending points, which many of you move around for what reason only God knows=
starting point= the decree to restore Jerusalem, which 3 decrees, given and the one completing the designs for the restoration being the decree of Artaxerxes, recorded in your own Bible in Ezra 7, which was given in 457bc
ending point = the end of probation to the nation of Israel. By the end of the 70 weeks,(490 years), Israel would have chosen or rejected the New Covenant, and by these point the confirming (offering in strenght) of the New Covenant would have ended, as such probation closing at this point…the end of the 70 weeks…
Daniel was demoted as a major prophet, because what he share certainly was not understood or was reject as too hot to handle…either way the result was the same…
For us christians seeing Christ in Daniel 9 is obvious…
with the simple timeline.=
decree/457bc + 70 weeks(490 years) –> 34ad
(7wks . 62wks . 1wk) = 70 weeks (490 years)
decree/457bc + sixty.nine weeks (7wks + 62wks) –>ad.27(A)=arrival Messiah = Jesus
It so happens that Jesus died after the 62 weeks (middle period) which actually means within the next or “1 week” (70th week) which is the last or 70th week, … which is 31ad… and so He did… as simple as…
Decree/457bc + sixty-nine weeks(483 years) – > 27ad(A) –31ad/(X)->34ad/(E)end 70wks
Anybody with a knowledge of probablity, will certain confirm that this goes beyond haphazard choosing here and there…because
1) the MedoPersian decree of 457bc as being a decree involve in the restoration of the city of Jerusalem, giving the city religious political powers, as such Israel a nation once again under God, is evident as shown in Ezra 7, and historically…
2) the timeline of 70 weeks(490 years) as a continuous time period, is known by many people here, one actually agreeing that much at the start of this posting…
and if considering Daniel 8, the vision Daniel 9 is explaining, these 70 weeks(490yrs) is the first part of that time period, having to do with the OT times of the People of Israel up to the time of the coming of their Messiah… the next event abom.des of 70 ad, falling after, but outside the 70 weeks… since 70 weeks is a period of mercy for the nation,
the period given for them to accept the New Covenant in the Messiah…a period of mercy/probation.. which they rejected.
The fact that the prophecy says that the abomination.desolation was to come AFTER THE ARRIVAL OF THE MESSIAH…AND SINCE THE ABOMINATION DESOLATION OF 70AD, did take place…this means that the Messiah by this time had already come as told in the prophecy of Daniel 9…
I don’t know if I were a Jew, I put back Daniel among the greatests prophets His people have known… none other were given to important jobs… as=
identifying who is the Messiah in Daniel 9 and
identifying who is the Antichrist as shown in Daniel 8…
The question remains I we willing to listen?
Are we making assumptions of grammar, which were not binding 2500 years ago..
Or could it be that the prophetic message does not need to do things as we want it to do it? Take for example the 2300 evening.mornings of Daniel 8…that is a very unusual way of saying 2300 days in prophecy….(which actually means 2300 year in history..)
It all boils down to…do we love the truth??
Do we ask God to show us, give us a sign to know if what it is shared is true???
You call me repetitious…
but the truth cannot be change…
and this study is about Daniel 9…
yet
I have brought a lot about the parent vision of Daniel 8, (medoPersian Ram and Greek goat, and unknown little horn, id as Rome of Ceasars and Papal, just by the timeline there presented, as being inhabited by these empires..)…but nobody has address the issues there presented…which is that since Daniel 8 the parent vision shows the same concept, that Daniel 9 its explanation is talking of the times of Medopersia forwards…which is the post-babylonian restoration, and functioning of the city and temple, to the times of the Messiah and His offer of His covenant ..which ended at the end of the 70 weeks…
this 70 weeks representing the first part of the 2300 years, ..
.certainly Daniel 8 goes forwards into the later part of the 2,300 years and into the time of the end.. as such this prophecy extends into the future, which is the times of the Roman Empire, identifies as the Abominator Desolator (70ad, and Middle Ages, and returns during the later time of the end with this abomination.desolationnd…Papal Rome as the Antichrist…. this time of the protestant churches, ecumenism) returning as the Revived Roman Empire,/Papal.Rome…
THE NEW WORLD ORDER = IS THE REVIVAL/HEALING OF THE ROMAN EMPIRE PAPAL PHASE,THIS TIME TO EXTEND TO THE WHOLE WORLD= AKA BABYLON THE GREAT RULING THE KINGDOMS OF THE OWRLD…
AN ADULTEROUS = APOSTATE
WOMEN= CHURCH
CITY.STATE= BEAST
RULING= OPPRESING CONTROLLING
KINGDOMS OF THE WORLD= THE 10 KINGS/10 HORNS OF HER… THE 10 UNIONS INTO WHICH THIS WORLD WILL BE DIVIDED, EG. EUROPEAN UNION, NORTHAMERICAN UNION….AND SO FORTH..
speaking of Babylon the great, the adulterous(apostate/Eze 16) Women/church and city/beast, which rules the king/kingdoms of the world/10kings./10horns
Rev 17:18 And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.
HER THRONES TO BE…FOR A SHORT TIME…BECAUSE SHE WILL BE DEFEATED BY CHRIST AT HIS 2ND COMING=
Political throne/United Nations,
Religious Thrones
a) Vatican…as usual
b) most wanted= the throne of Jerusalem…(simply she is using the Hegelian principle, which is directly or indirectly inducing a great conflict in the region, so that the third option of “PEACE” may come in, Papal Rome as Peace Maker…when all alone she is the one behind all that conflict…Papal Rome ruling the kingdoms of the world… if you do not believe me…then ask yourself…why is Papal Rome sponsoring the New World Order?
answer= she is simply sponsoring her empire, hidden behind other nations…but all alone she in control…
So braze for what is coming…
Get close to the Lord, answer His call to repentance (me too)…
and He will help you get through what is coming!! liberated at the end…by Michael the Prince of your people..
Dan 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
Dan 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
Dan 12:3 And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever.
If the timeline were clear and continuous as you say Bru, it makes no sense that Daniel himself would be so confused by the visions thereby prompting him to pray for help and explanation. You keep saying that one messiah is shown in Daniel 9, but we have shown you how the words and Grammar don’t support your view. I even showed you how even if it did refer to Jesus, (or any other messiah claiment,) it wouldn’t prove anything.
If you don’t believe the explanations given that’s fine, but it is the plain sense of the verses.
Bru You can’t read Hebrew but the whole thing “is clear” – of course its “clear” to you because you don’t need to follow any grammar you can have the text say what you want it to say. Let me just ask you this question Bru – assuming that you are wrong – how could anyone ever prove it to you? – The Hebrew means nothing to you, the context means nothing to you, the overall context of Scripture means nothing to you – how could anyone argue with what you are saying? And please don’t respond by posting a timeline again – your timeline is contradicted by the Bible on several counts – but like Pharaoh before you I must tell you that until now you have refused to listen.
Also Bru, Daniel 9:26 translates best as “messiah will be cut off and HAVE NOTHING” (Wa En Lo!) THIS IS COMPLETELY DIFFERENT THAN THE KJV THAT SAYS “messiah will be cut off but not for himself.” THE TEXT OF DANIEL SAYS THIS CUT OFF MESSIAH WILL HAVE NOTHING. THERE IS NO HINT OF VICARIOUS SUFFERING IN THIS VERSE IN HEBREW.
Recently one of you….I am not sure…
was mentioning that the death of the Messiah as “cut off” speaks of his death as a wicked.
A good person dying as a criminal…certainly something to think about…
but we can get more information about the Messiah being cut off..because Daniel 11-12 speaks further about it, the angel returns to give further details about Daniel 9..
A) AUGUSTUS CESARS = THE FATHER OF THE ROMAN EMPIRE, IN POWER DURING THE BIRTH OF CHRIST=
BY THIS POINT= THE ROMAN EMPIRE = AUGUSTUS CESARS IS DESCRIBED=
Dan 11:20
Then shall stand up in his estate a raiser of taxes in the glory of the kingdom: but within few days he shall be destroyed, neither in anger, nor in battle.
Luk 2:1
And it came to pass in those days, that there went out a decree from Caesar Augustus, that all the world should be taxed.
B) TIBERIUS CAESAR , NEXT EMPEROR ROMAN EMPIRE, INHERIT THE POWER FROM AUGUSTUS CEASAR(THE RAISER OF TAXES( Dan. 11:20)=
(ALSO DUAL APPLICATION TO PAPAL ROME)
i) The Prince of the Covenant, the Messiah Prince, dies/broken during the times of Tiberius Ceasars= this alludes to Christ as the Prince of the Covenant=
Dan 11:21-22 And in his estate shall stand up a vile person, to whom they shall not give the honour of the kingdom: but he shall come in peaceably, and obtain the kingdom by flatteries. And with the arms of a flood shall they be overflown from before him, and shall be broken; yea, also ***the prince of the covenant***.
Note= prophecy confirms that the Messiah Prince, or Prince of the Covenant, that confirms the New Covenant (see Dan. 9), dies during the times of Tiberius Caesar….
Per Wickipedia= Tiberius (16 November 42 BC – 16 March 37 AD) was Roman Emperor from 14 AD to 37 AD.
So Tiberius was in power from 14ad (actually 12 ad when including its 2 coreignal years)..
to 37ad….this means that the Messiah is broken during this time period…
The same is said of the Suffering Servant in lots of more details..
simply because this it another vision of the same Messiah…I
So truth be told, we need a comparative and complementary study of the prophetic message that refers to the Messiah, all the prophecies together amplify our understanding of Our Messiah and His place in history!!!
The Vile Person…has a dual application, and it is seen in power all the way to the end of time, described in Daniel 11:40-45 and Dan. 12:1-3. This refers to the Roman Empire, with a dual application to Tiberius Cesar as described above…and Papal Rome…
this become evident when a comparative study of the initial symbolic prophecy of Dan.8, and the angelic explanations that follow, which are Daniel 9 and 11-12 …(difficult to tell which one came first, but both were given the same year.)….
Daniel 11 only mentions Israelites fighting against kings of the north and south (the Greeks and Romans) in one verse, number 14. That’s covering a time period from 150 BC-135CE
Daniel 11:14 And in those times, many will rise up against the king of the south, and the SONS OF THE RENEGADES OF YOUR PEOPLE will EXALT THEMSELVES TO BRING ABOUT THE VISION, BUT THEY WILL FAIL!
This verse about Jewish RENEGADES TRYING TO MAKE THE VISION (of the messianic promise) STAND BUT FAILING IN THAT MISSION, could indeed refer to Jesus, Benjamin the Egyptian, Simon of Perea, Bar Kochba, and all other FAILED ATTEMPTS to throw off the yoke of Greco Roman oppression, BUT THEY WERE FAILED ATTEMPTS AS THE VERSE PLAINLY SAYS.
ONE REASON THAT WE CANT BELIEVE IN A MESSIAH WHO DIES AND COMES BACK IS PRECISELY BECAUSE THERE WERE SO MANY MESSIAH CLAIMANTS. If the messiah dying was a requirement of his coming, he could LITERALLY be anyone ON THAT LIST, including bar kochba, and we’d have no way of knowing who. So, if you want to use Daniel 9 and 11 to prove a renegade and failed messiahs attempt to throw off the yoke of the Romans, then you succeeded.
A good person dying as a criminal…certainly something to think about…
I’ve tried to explain this to you before, but Karet refers to the death of wicked people. BUT, HERE it is again. When a person who is GOOD Dies, the Torah always uses phrases like they are “gathered to their people,” “brought up,” or “brought down,” etc.
Samson was killed by the philistines As A CRIMINAL, (just like Jesus was killed by Romans as a criminal,) and the text uses phrases like those above About being brought down/gathered.
Torah DOES NOT SAY YIKARET IN SAMSON’s death BECAUSE THE WORD KARET INDICATES A WICKED PERSON, not the righteous people! Here is Rashi on the relevant verse.
26And after the sixty-two weeks, the anointed one will be cut off, and he will be no more, and the people of the coming monarch will destroy the city and the Sanctuary, and his end will come about by inundation, and until the end of the war, it will be cut off into desolation. כווְאַחֲרֵי הַשָּׁבֻעִים שִׁשִּׁים וּשְׁנַיִם יִכָּרֵת מָשִׁיחַ וְאֵין לוֹ וְהָעִיר וְהַקֹּדֶשׁ יַשְׁחִית עַם נָגִיד הַבָּא וְקִצּוֹ בַשֶּׁטֶף וְעַד קֵץ מִלְחָמָה נֶחֱרֶצֶת שֹׁמֵמוֹת:
And after: those weeks.
the anointed one will be cut off: AGRIPPA the king of Judea, who was ruling AT THE TIME OF THE DESTRUCTION, will be slain.
and he will be no more: Heb. וְאֵין לוֹ, and he will not have. The meaning is that HE WILL NOT BE!
CR
What does it mean the book is sealed?
Larry, It seems to me based on Daniel 12 that it says the book is sealed ie closed to thorough inquiry “until the time of the end,” IE its secrets belong to G-d. When Daniel needed help to understand the book, much moreso us today,
CR
So, What part of Daniel are we able to understand or not understand, what part is kept a secret?
Seems to me that the text suggests that we can’t understand the parts in the text of Daniel concerning the calculating of future times/dates that Daniel himself couldn’t understand without the help of Angels. The dates belong to G-d. Even the Christian bible teaches that days and hours of G-d’s actions belong exclusively to G-d.
The whole context of Daniel chapter 9 is that Daniel is troubled because he was attempting calculation of the expected dates of the redemption based on what he thought matched Jeremiah’s words of prophecy, but redemption hadn’t come yet, so Daniel was feeling distraught, prompting him to be praying to G-d for advice and assistance. The Angel than comes and explains.
Bru and others are calculating Dates just like Daniel tried (and failed) to do, and Daniel was a prophet! I believe dates and times are sealed because of the Torah’s warnings against divination. It’s nobodies job to predict the future, not even a prophet’s job.
Daniel was demoted as a major prophet, because what he share certainly was not understood or was reject as too hot to handle…either way the result was the Same.
NO NO NO Bru. Daniel is not in the major prophets for several different reasons having nothing to do with your assertion of being too hot to handle. That’s a very presumptuous judgement of the Jewish people on your part btw. Jews care very much for their bible.
One of the reasons for Daniel’s exclusion as a major prophet is that Daniel himself needed assistance from Angels in order to understand his own visions, while other earlier prophets like Moses had far greater clarity of vision without a mediating Angel. Another reason he is not a major prophet is because HIS PROPHECY ITSELF MENTIONS THE IMPENDING END OF PROPHECY. A third reason is, THE BOOK IS DECLARED SEALED. 4. PROPHECY CANNOT OVERIDE THE LAW OF G-D AS DELIVERED TO THE PEOPLE ON MOUNT SINAI AS PER DEUTERONOMY 13:1-3 .
Wow….
I am using simple mathematics and you call it “divination”… simple adding and subtracting…is that so difficult for you to understand…
Bru, it is not I who calls calculations divination, that’s just the definition of the word. It is also the Torah text itself that says it. Daniel the prophet himself is proof that there is an inherent danger in attempts at calculating times, and that people were not meant to trust in the calculation of times.
The Torah says (and history) shows that polytheism often revolved around a mastery of natural forces, astrology, etc. and that includes knowledge of astronomy/ calculating of times. I would think that you, (being an Adventist) would understand the potential errors caused by trying to calculate days for yourself. Sunday worship came about precisely because the Churches decided to stop observing Easter in The month of Nisan when it was originally. Historic Historic Church debates about the calander have wreaked severe havoc. A PERSON DOES NOT HAVE TO HAVE EVIL OR NEFARIOUS INTENTIONS FOR AN ACTION TO BE CINSIDERED DIVINATION, IDOLATRY, OR OTHER TYPES OF SINS.
Hi Pharisee Friend,
Thanks for directing me to this post. In reference to the questions I asked, I drew from this post that you believe:
1. The Messiah is truly a man
2. The Messiah has not yet come
3. The Messiah will come in the endtimes.
My question is… what is the real purpose of a Messiah (according to Judaism)? Is he just supposed to be a righteous king/ruler? Is his sole purpose to make every nation to submit to the rule of Isreal – as the firstborn of God (as you say)? If he is merely royalty, what is the significance of salvation that is placed on him?
Also, do you believe in such a thing as the antiChrist? If you do, how might you distinguish the antiChrist from the Messiah?
Thanks for engaging me.
Sincerely, Ufuoma.
Ufuomaee
The purpose of the Messiah is the same as David – and that is to inspire and encourage everyone to submit to the rule of God. Here is an article about the antichrist – https://yourphariseefriend.wordpress.com/2015/05/08/what-does-the-bible-really-say-about-christianity-2/
Hi Pharisee Friend,
Can I call you PF or YPF for short?
Thanks for your feedback. Please, where does it say that the purpose of the Messiah is the same as David?
From my reading of the Bible, God never wanted a king to rule over His people, but it was what they demanded of Him. They didn’t like the equal and fair guidance of Judges over them, which was how God originally chose to lead them. David as king over Israel was not God’s original plan. However, God prepared David’s heart and chose him to replace Saul as king over Israel.
Do you really think the heart of God is to bring another man to rule over His people and unite the whole world like David? Don’t you think that the Throne (and Kingdom, whose rule has no end) He prepared was for Himself, to live among men and rule over them, as the King of kings, knowing how prone to corruption men are? He originally wanted to live among men, appearing as a cloud by day and pillar of fire by night. Even building a Temple where He would abide with them.
Though you believe that we are all capable of living up to the Law and being righteous without God’s indwelling Spirit, the Bible does say that all have sinned, and that there is none righteous among men. So who is the example of righteousness that gives you the boldness to strive for it through observance of the Law alone?
These are just some of my thoughts. Sorry to bombard you with so many questions. It comes with the territory of having to consider that my faith in Jesus is flawed. I hope you can help me address these issues.
Many thanks!
Sincerely, Ufuoma.
Ufuomaee
First of all there is no need to apologize for asking questions – I enjoy them and I will try to answer them. My name is Yisroel – so you can call me that or you can call me YPF – I have no problem with either.
Now for your questions
The way that the Bible tells us that the purpose of the Messiah is the same as David is by giving the Messiah David’s name – the Bible does this several times (I will provide references in a link to an article)
The way I know that God has a plan for a human king is that He speaks of yearning for David in the same sentence that He speaks of yearning for Him – Hosea 3:5
You are correct in stating that God did not look favorably at the people’s request for a king – but David I a different sort of king as I explain in the article – and the fact that the Davidic kingdom is granted the divine promises tells me that it has God’s heart
https://yourphariseefriend.wordpress.com/2011/01/30/yearning-for-the-messiah/
Where did you get the idea that I believe that we could be righteous without God’s indwelling spirit – that spirit is with us as per Ezekiel 11:16 and I don’t believe any human being is completely righteous – and I don’t need “boldness” to strive for observance of God’s Law – I have God’s encouragement – Deuteronomy 30:14
You may find this article helpful
https://yourphariseefriend.wordpress.com/2012/06/22/love-law-and-jeremiah-923/
keep up with the questions!
I love it when the religious get to discussing who’s god is real. It’s like watching two teams of blindfolded amateur soccer teams playing a game with a rugby ball.
Hey troll, get out of your mom’s basement and go play outside. Grown-ups are talking here.
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May HaShem bless you and the words you have written to add clarity to how we as a Nation see the Moshiach. Thank You