Deadly Parable – excerpt from Supplement

Then Brown goes on to one of the most staggering arguments in this five volume series (and there are no shortage of these): “Or consider this parable of Jesus, one that proved to be incredibly prophetic just forty years after his death and resurrection:

 

“Listen to another parable: there was a landowner who planted a vineyard, he put a wall around it, dug a winepress in it and built a watchtower. Then he rented the vineyard to some farmers and went away on a journey. When the harvest time approached, he sent his servants to the tenants to collect his fruit. The tenants seized his servants; they beat one, killed another, and stoned a third. Then he sent more servants to them, more than the first time, and the tenants treated them the same way. Last of all , he sent his son to them. ‘They will respect my son’ he said.

 

But when the tenants saw the son, they said to each other, ‘This is the heir, Come, let’s kill him and take away the inheritance.’ So they took him and threw him out of the vineyard and killed him.

 

Therefore, when the owner of the vineyard comes, what will he do to those tenants?

 

“He will bring those wretches to an evil end” they replied, “and he will rent the vineyard to other tenants, who will give him his share of the crop at the harvest time.”

 

Jesus said to them, “have you never read in the Scriptures: ‘The stone the builders rejected has become the capstone; the Lord has done this, and it is marvelous in our eyes’?

 

Therefore I tell you that the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people who will produce its fruit. He who falls on this stone will be broken to pieces but he on whom it falls will be crushed.” (Matt. 21:33-44)

 

Do you understand his words? 

 

This is a teaching of Jesus that Brown is proudly holding up as an example of Jesus’ amazing ethical and spiritual insight with no parallel in the rabbinic writings.

 

Indeed. You will not find a parallel to this in any of the rabbinic writings, and for good reason. This evil parable of Jesus is a blood-soaked stain on the history of Christianity.

 

What is the point of the parable? And how does Brown see its fulfillment forty years after Jesus’ death?

 

The owner of the vineyard is God, while the tenants are the Jewish people. The son of the landowner is Jesus and the murder of the son is the crucifixion of Jesus. In the parable, Jesus tells us the motives behind the murder of the son of the landowner: “But when the tenants saw the son, they said to each other, ‘This is the heir, Come, let’s kill him and take away the inheritance”. In other words, they identified landowner’s son as the landowner’s son, and they killed him because they wanted his inheritance. To transpose this onto the events surrounding the crucifixion, Jesus is saying that the Jews who killed him knew that he was who claimed to be, and killed him because they somehow thought that by killing him they would take that which belongs to him. Jesus is not done. He tells us that the guilt of the tenants belongs to all of them and the whole lot of them will be punished by having the vineyard taken from them. In the real world, he puts the guilt of the crucifixion upon all the Jews and tells them that the kingdom of God will be taken from them and given to others. Brown sees a fulfillment to this pronouncement in the destruction of the Second Temple and in the rise of the Church.

 

Words fail to convey the evil that is inherent to this parable.

 

How many Jews were involved in the crucifixion of Jesus? – perhaps a handful. Why did they want to kill him? According to the very same Christian Scriptures we have two answers to this question; either because they considered Jesus to be a blasphemer (Matthew 26:65), or because they were frightened of the Roman reaction to his claims (John 11:50). The accusation that is implicit in Jesus’ parable, namely that the Jews KNEW that he was who he claimed to be and killed him anyway – has no basis in reality. The idea that they killed him because they wanted something that belonged to him is ridiculous to begin with. What did he have that they thought they could take? The idea that all the Jewish people are guilty for the crimes of a few, is also immoral and unethical. Yet on the basis of this teaching, Christian Europe decided that all the Jews are guilty of deicide – having committed the sin, with full knowledge of the severity of the act.

 

This lead to teachings of hate and dehumanization that have their roots on this evil parable, but continued to flourish in what Brown sees as an “incredibly prophetic” fulfillment of Jesus’ words. As the Church spread, so did its Jew-hatred deepen – persecution, of every sort, incitement to murder, murder, Crusades, Inquisition and holocaust – all have their roots in this evil parable. And this is what Brown holds up as something we should be impressed with?

 

Just look at the hypocrisy – which is really too small a word to describe two millennia of crime. It was a few Jews who killed Jesus who never believed for a second that he was the son of God. Brown is satisfied with the judgment that all Jews should now lose the kingdom of God. So who inherited that kingdom? Who are the good tenants that Brown is happy to see tending the vineyard as an expression of justice served? The Church! The Church who killed and tortured millions of people who are explicitly identified by Scripture as God’s firstborn son (Exodus 4:22, Jeremiah 31:8). If the killing of one son requires that you lose the kingdom, what does the killing of several million do for you? But for Brown, justice is served. The Jews lost it, and the Church got it – and Brown sees this as an “incredibly prophetic” fulfillment!?

 

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434 Responses to Deadly Parable – excerpt from Supplement

  1. Alan says:

    Thank you! There is a video online of a debate between Brown and Boteach in which Brown at one point says that “the Jews will be destroyed if they don’t accept Jesus”. I don’t have the stomach to try to find this clip right now but it is there for anyone who is interested.

    • CP says:

      And you took this as an anti-Semitic remark? Good grief. Take Jesus out of the equation for the moment — exactly what do you think would happen if Messiah came and the Jews rejected him?

      Answer: if the past is any indicator; they would be destroyed and God would start again with a remnant of Jews who did believe. Think I’m wrong? Read the Tanach, how many times has God started over with a remnant because of disbelief (disobedience)?

      • Alan says:

        I am in the process of trying to find the clip. Hopefully I will be able to find it. Brown was saying that every single Jew who doesn’t accept Jesus will be destroyed and there will be no more Nation of Israel at all because there is no need for a remnant of the Nation of Israel. On the other hand, the Tenach says that in the days of the real Moshiach, even those who have strayed from Hashem will return to Hashem, to listen to His voice and keep His commandments – both Jews and Gentiles.

        • LarryB says:

          It pays to learn the Torah from those it was given to and to ignore the new teaching and interpretations of the Torah from the christians who it was not given to. simple

        • CP says:

          Alan, when you find the clip, please post it, I’d love to watch it. There is something in the Tanach about Messiah ruling with a rod of iron, suggesting he is not going to tolerate disbelief or disobedience. But if Brown said what you’ve posted I certainly would like to know his reasoning.

    • KAVI says:

      Alan,
      What I find interesting is that Rabbi Blumenthal does not find this parable with parallels in Tanakh–

      We read for example,
      “The L-RD, the God of their fathers, sent word to them again and again by His messengers, because He had compassion on His people and on His dwelling place;

      but they continually mocked the messengers of G-d, despised His words and scoffed at His prophets, until the wrath of the L-RD arose against His people, until there was no remedy.

      Therefore He brought up against them the king of the Chaldeans who slew their young men with the sword in the house of their sanctuary, and had no compassion on young man or virgin, old man or infirm. . .” [2 Chronicles 36]

      Thus, the basis for this parable of L-RD Yeshua stems from Tanakh– 2 Chronicles, Isaiah, and the Psalms.

      Q: As such, when G-d slew His people by the hand of the Chaldeans, was He unrighteous in killing them?

      ____________________________

      • Dina says:

        In your example, Kavi, God punished the wrongdoers. He didn’t give the election of Israel to another. He also didn’t make this out to be a bunch of Jews who knew who the messiah was but killed him anyway because they wanted his inheritance, although Jesus had nothing the Jews would have wanted.

        So, no comparison.

        • KAVI says:

          Dina,
          I think there is more to the parallel in Tanakh than acknowledged. . .

          [] Dina: “God punished the wrongdoers.”
          KAVI: Yes, the L-RD destroyed Jerusalem by the hand of the Chaldeans and then the L-RD destroyed Jerusalem by the hand of the Romans.

          ________________
          [] Dina: “Indeed He didn’t give the election of Israel to another.”
          KAVI: When the L-rd destroyed Jerusalem, He took away the kingdom and gave it into the hands of Nebuchadnezzar.

          G-d’s kingdom is composed of Jews and Gentiles made holy by forgiveness of sins through Faith in G-d’s promised Redeemer, L-RD Yeshua.

          For the L-RD writes,
          “I permitted Myself to be sought by those who did not ask for Me; I permitted Myself to be found by those who did not seek Me. I said, ‘Here am I, here am I,’ To a nation which did not call on My name. I have spread out My hands all day long to a rebellious people, Who walk in the way which is not good, following their own thoughts. . .” [Isaiah 65]

          ________________
          [] Dina: “He also didn’t make this out to be a bunch of Jews who knew who the messiah was but killed him anyway because they wanted his inheritance, although Jesus had nothing the Jews would have wanted.”

          KAVI: Yeshua had “nothing” the Jews wanted?
          >> How about power and prestige?
          Most members of the Sanhedrin were afraid the people would raise up Yeshua to the point where their power and prestige would be removed–

          >> How about Kingdom authority?
          The people wanted to forcibly make L-RD Yeshua their King–

          >> How about the power to decide halakha?
          Yeshua threatened to take this religious authority completely away from them–

          >> How about the power to interpret Torah?
          Yeshua likewise threatened to take this religious authority away from them–

          • Dina says:

            Kavi, your inability to understand the Jewish position shows a chilling lack of empathy. I see no point in discussing this matter further with someone whose ears, heart, and mind are thus closed.

            I take comfort in the prophecies of the Hebrew Bible that one day we will be vindicated in the eyes of the nations and all will unite in the worship of the one true God of Israel.

  2. Alan says:

    I found it – starts at 08:50 –

    Rabbi Boteach: “Will God destroy the Jews for not believing in Jesus, yes or no?”

    Dr. Brown: “God will destroy the Jews for not believing in His witness, which includes His
    written word, which includes His prophets, which includes His messiah.”

    • RT says:

      DR Brown is right as per the book he believes. Yeshua clearly said that if you don’t believe in him, you will burn the lake of Fire. What bugs me is that he changed the words to look kinder than they are. He replace “unquenchable Fire” and “Forever” with “Destroy”. And he added “His Word”, “His Prophet” and “his messiah” instead of saying clearly… “all Jews who don’t believe in Jesus are burning in Hell, that inclues Hillel, Rashi and all the other people that you listen to. This also includes your grand-ma, your baby brother, and your children. All in the lake of Fire!” That would be the honest answer…

  3. Dina says:

    Christians think it’s legitimate to ask: wouldn’t the Jews have also been punished and their election taken away if they rejected the Messiah when he came?

    CP has asked this question more than once, and in other variations, such as, what would have happened if the Jews had rejected Moses?

    The fact that he repeats the question as if for the first time and as if no one addressed it shows he is here to push an agenda and is not interested in listening.

    Nevertheless, my dear friends in the audience, I will answer the question for the sake of others who may have considered it as well.

    The Jews will not need to struggle with belief or non-belief in the Messiah. The Torah does not teach that one must believe in the Messiah. The Torah also does not teach that those who reject the Messiah will be punished. The reason for this is self-evident. The Torah gives a clear description of what to expect from the Messiah and the messianic age: a descendant of David who will rule over Israel during a time of universal peace, universal knowledge of God, ingathering of the exiles, restoration of the Jews to their homeland, restoration of the Temple and the sacrificial system, national resurgence of Torah observance, punishment of Israel’s oppressors, vindication of the nation of Israel in the eyes of the nations of the world (which of course includes the two billion or so Christians).

    It will be so obvious to Jews who the Messiah is that it won’t be a question of belief or non-belief.

    That is why the case of Moses is so instructive.

    Until Moses had proved himself to the people, they had no reason to accept him–and in fact they did not. Moses argued this very point with God.

    Moses, unlike Jesus, did not demand that anyone believe in him, and rather took the cause of the people to God when they complained, as opposed to Jesus who condemned all who did not accept him even without proof.

    When Moses finally started kicking Egypt in the you-know-what, the people rallied to him. If Jesus had kicked some serious Roman butt, you can be sure the Jews would have flocked to him, including the leaders. If he would have sent the Romans packing and strengthened Temple worship while the Jews in the Diaspora were flocking back to Israel, it would have been a whole ‘nother story.

    The people of Israel witnessed Moses strike Egypt with ten awesome plagues and split the sea and lead them out of Egypt. They stood at Mount Sinai, every last man, woman, and child of them, and heard God speak to Moses. After that, there was no question of rejection or unbelief: you accept what your eyes see.

    Jesus expected to be believed without proof (“Blessed is he who believes without seeing”) and gave false prophecies (as I have exhaustively proved in these pages). His miracles, if they occurred at all, were small-time typical miracles that did not affect the Romans at all and did not affect the overwhelming majority of Jews (who didn’t even live in Israel).

    When the Messiah comes, it’s going to be so obvious there won’t be any need to reject or accept. We’re going to accept what our eyes will see.

    Oh, and by the way? The election of Israel can never be taken away and given to another. Our covenant with God is eternal even when we stray.

    • CP says:

      Dina,
      You write; “CP has asked this question more than once, and in other variations, such as, what would have happened if the Jews had rejected Moses?
      The fact that he repeats the question as if for the first time and as if no one addressed it shows he is here to push an agenda and is not interested in listening.”

      Dina, the question is most always in response to some statement someone has made to the effect of ‘Jews don’t need to have faith’ or ‘Where are we told faith in a Messiah is important?’

      Therefore the logical question to ask is what if no one had faith in Moses? You’ve deflected by comparing the signs of Moses to the signs of Jesus rather than answering the question.

      But we don’t really need you to answer the question, Torah already has given us the answer; ‘the people didn’t believe and wandered in the wilderness until everyone over 20 years old died 40 years later’.

      Having faith in the one God sends is pretty important, even Moses says so.

      • Dina says:

        My friends in the audience, I’m curious to find out if it’s as obvious to you as it is to me the fatal flaw in CP’s reasoning, wherein he presents the example of the Children of Israel wandering in the desert until they died as punishment for lack of faith.

        Three points extra credit on your next test for the correct answer, and ten points to CP if he can figure it out himself!

        Don’t all answer at once now…

        • Southern Noahide says:

          Dina, CP said:

          “Having faith in the one God sends is pretty important….”

          He seems to think it was all about faith in Moses rather than trust in Hashem. That’s what jumped out at me when I read his post.

      • RT says:

        If faith in a person would have been required, that would have fit more David than Moses, and as we all know, Moses ruled 4 years over Judah and Israel was never rebuked not to have faith in his anointed…

          • Dina says:

            Southern Noahide and RT, good job! It wasn’t the answer I was looking for, but good enough to merit three points extra credit on your next test :).

            The flaw in CP’s reasoning is this:

            He fails to account for the fact that after witnessing the Ten Plagues, the Splitting of the Sea, the Exodus from Egypt, and the Revelation at Mount Sinai–and accepting Moses as their undisputed leader; after all of that, still the Children of Israel reacted ungratefully. He fails to account for the fact that Jesus didn’t do anything good for the Jewish people; actually, he caused them great harm. (This is a fact Christians ignore, instead focusing on the fact that Christians have been nice to the Jews for a tiny fraction of their history. And with Christians still blaming Jews for the death of Jesus, God only knows how long they will continue to tolerate us.)

            The likelihood of something like this happening after someone comes along, sends all those who delegitimize Israel and harass us packing, brings us back to the Land from all over the world, presides over the restoration of the Temple and the sacrificial offerings, rules as king over Israel during a time of universal peace and universal knowledge of God, and so on and so forth, is very, very, very remote. I would imagine that should that happen, a punishment would be waiting in the wings to take effect.

            However, that will never happen because the Torah predicts that at the end of days, we will return to Hashem and full Torah observance, at which point Hashem will circumcise our hearts so that we will never again stray (Deuteronomy 30).

            That is why the argument about faith is all just smoke and mirrors. You need faith in Jesus because you have nothing else to go on.

            You didn’t need faith to believe in Moses–you could just accept what your eyes saw.

            You won’t need faith to accept the Messiah–you will just accept what your eyes see. And you won’t rebel, because the era of rebellion against God and those He choses to lead will be over.

          • LarryB says:

            Dina
            The other problem is he won’t discuss why he believes what he believes.
            Most here welcome this, he doesn’t, wishing to be shown what he believes is not
            not correct before he shows why he thinks it is. Go figure !

          • CP says:

            Dina writes; “The flaw in CP’s reasoning is this:”

            Let’s talk about flawed reasoning: rather than comparing apples to apples you compare apples to oranges by comparing Jews living durning the days of Moses with modern Christians when you ought to be comparing those who saw Moses with those who saw Yeshua. But instead you write:

            “That is why the argument about faith is all just smoke and mirrors. You need faith in Jesus because you have nothing else to go on.
            You didn’t need faith to believe in Moses–you could just accept what your eyes saw.”

            Wow! Talk about smoke and mirrors! Lol.

            If you wanted to be honest, you’d admit both today’s Jew and today’s Christian rely on having faith in ancient writings. But you act as if you’ve seen Moses first hand and the Christian has nothing but to rely on faith – absurd!
            (Btw, the Christian also relies on the testimony of the Holy Spirit, however you’ve no reference of understanding to be able to discuss this, so I’ll leave it here)

            Dina, you’ve quoted/written the following statements:

            “we will return to Hashem”
            “Hashem will circumcise our hearts”
            “the era of rebellion against God and those He choses to lead will be over”

            Question: If you posses the sole truth in Judaism then why do you need to “return to Hashem”, have your ‘heart circumcised’ and ‘end your rebellion’?

          • Dina says:

            CP deflects the challenge, rather than answer it, with a false charge of false comparison.

            This is to be expected, as my argument is unassailable.

          • CP says:

            LarryB,
            I’ve openly and honestly written on this when asked. I’m not here to convince anyone of anything, rather comparing and sorting out personal doctrines and beliefs. I will answer anything in this context you’d like to know, just ask. Currently I am searching out the historical Jewish Yeshua, his intended purpose, why and how Judaism and Christianity split, should Paul be believed, rejected or taken as one man’s commentary. This blog has helped solidify the rejection of many Christian doctrines of man and has affirmed many doctrines of Judaism found in Torah. However it so far has not given any honest reason for the wholesale rejection of Yeshua.

          • RT says:

            And you have not given a honest reason why we should embrace him either!

          • LarryB says:

            CP
            I have in another thread but will again. What scripture’s in the Torah do base your belief that Jesus is the messiah?

          • LarryB says:

            CP
            Yea, I didn’t think so.

          • CP says:

            LarryB,
            I have a job and more responsibilities that I am currently successfully handling, I’m only here for brief periods of time- when time permits. Without sitting down a writing a detailed response of every scripture that points to Yeshua just so you can say it means something else would be a waste of my time. Because while I accept drash interptations for these scriptures you will only accept p’shat for them while accepting drash for other things in the Talmud. You’ve created a system of interpretation which amounts to a stacked deck.
            However Ill give you this: Without exception, every time in the History of Israel before God does some big change concerning Israel He sends someone ahead of time to the people. Therefore I ask you WHO did God send calling for national repentance right before the
            2000 year desolation of Israel? Who are your list of candidates?

            Yeshua, the greatest known righteous Jew in the world of all history, comes right before the 2000 year desolation of Israel calling for national repentance and ‘he is irrelevant to you’ ???

            Good grief, anyone with an ounce of common sense can see there’s more going on than meets the eye here!

          • Dina says:

            Larry, don’t be fooled by CP’s tomfoolery. Jesus was not sent to the Jewish people to call for national repentance, as the overwhelming majority of Jews were in the Diaspora and never heard of Jesus; furthermore, Jesus was not well known in his lifetime but had a small following.

            Also, Larry, CP’s proof that Jesus was the prophet sent to warn Israel because God always sends prophets before big changes falls flat on its face. God in fact does not, as history shows us. No prophet was sent to herald the war between the Greeks and the Maccabees and encourage them that they would win and recapture the Temple. No prophet was sent to call the nation to repentance before the Holocaust (a time when the Jews were also scattered) and the creation of the State of Israel.

            If this be proof, it collapses under a cursory glance.

            Larry, you are not the one lacking common sense. Good grief indeed.

          • Dina says:

            Larry, when Christians are reluctant to discuss proofs from the Bible, then you know they know they have a problem.

            They just don’t stand a chance, it’s that simple.

          • CP says:

            Dina, Maccabees & Holocaust ??? Maccabees was a recapturing and didn’t work out so well, the Holocaust; Israel was dispersed all over the face of the planet, to where would you send some one? And why? Control of Israel was already lost. Neither fits the model portrayed in Tanach. You again compare apples and oranges.

            God always sends someone calling for repentance before judgement. God sent people to Sodom and Gomorah, Nineveh and repeatedly to Israel and Judah.

            -Read the Tanach- God shows how he works.

            Just to be clear, you are accusing God of allowing the 2000 desolation of Israel without giving his own son Israel a chance to repent like He did the gentile Nineveh?

          • RT says:

            Most Jews were already in Exile when Yeshua came…. There was no more prophets since Micah. Sorry, I don’t see that as a “proof” that Yeshua was sent, because his message was not consistent to the rest of Scriptures. Maybe, G-d was angry because too many Jews accepted Yeshua as their Saviour instead of Him and that’s why he sent them in exile… Have you ever though of that?

          • LarryB says:

            CP
            —–
            CP says:
            March 1, 2017 at 9:44 am
            LarryB,
            I will answer anything in this context you’d like to know, just ask.
            ———————-
            LarryB says:
            March 1, 2017 at 9:55 am
            CP
            I have in another thread but will again. What scripture’s in the Torah do base your belief that Jesus is the messiah?
            ———————–
            CP says:
            March 1, 2017 at 8:55 pm
            LarryB,
            (Short version of response)
            1. I’m a very busy man.
            2. Larry would disagree anyway.
            3. Larry’s unfair.
            4. Anyone with an ounce of common sense would agree with me anyway.
            ——————
            LarryB says
            CP
            So, Basically those who don’t agree with you have no common sense.
            That’s circular reasoning.

          • RT says:

            I would like to add that CP did not answer your question as per scripture. That’s my translation of what he said: “Jews were cursed because they refused their righteous messiah, and were warned by Jesus, just like Jonah did for Nineveh. Because they did not, the Jews are in exile since the last 2000 years and will only come back when they accept CP’s messiah and say “” Blessed are he who comes in the name of the L-rd”””

          • CP says:

            LarryB,
            you purposely omitted the answer I gave you, here it is again from the same comment summerized:

            “Yeshua, the greatest known righteous Jew in the world of all history, comes right before the 2000 year desolation of Israel calling for national repentance and ‘he is irrelevant to you’ ???”

          • Dina says:

            Larry, Jesus is irrelevant to us because he taught avodah zarah (I am the way, I am the first and the last, Jesus is the word of God made flesh, Jesus is the living Torah, etc.). He may be the most well-known Jew (although everyone who has heard of Jesus has also heard of Moses, so he alone does not deserve that distinction), but righteous? I don’t know, maybe he was, maybe he wasn’t. But millions of Jews weren’t murdered in Moses’ name, they were murdered in Jesus’.

            So, Larry, Jesus is not irrelevant in the sense that he brought nothing but trouble to the Jews.

            Also, he didn’t call for national repentance. He called for belief in himself. All the Pharisaic leaders were always preaching repentance; they didn’t point to themselves.

          • CP says:

            RT,
            You twisted my words into this:
            “Jews were cursed because they refused their righteous messiah,”

            Jerusalem was judged because they didn’t repent.

            Don’t believe me? Ask the Essenes and not a few Pharisees and Priests.

          • Dina says:

            RT, the Jews were punished with the sacking of Jerusalem and the destruction of Temple because they didn’t repent. But it was not for the sin of rejecting Jesus, which is the only sin for which Christians think Jews need to repent.

          • LarryB says:

            CP
            I’ll repost the question your having trouble with.
            LarryB says:
            March 1, 2017 at 9:55 am
            CP
            I have in another thread but will again. What scripture’s in the Torah do base your belief that Jesus is the messiah?

          • Alan says:

            CP, can I ask you the following question please? If Jesus actually said the following things how could Pharisees (or even Karaites) not believe he was a false prophet? –

            Matthew 15:10 –
            Then he called the crowd to him and said, “Listen and understand. 11 What defiles a person is not what goes into the mouth; it is what comes out of the mouth that defiles a person.”

            Mark 7 –

            14 Then he called the crowd again and said to them, “Listen to me, everyone, and understand. 15 There is nothing outside of a person that can defile him by going into him. Rather, it is what comes out of a person that defiles him.”

            When Jesus said this, wasn’t Judaism still in effect? I thought that according to Christianity, the practical observance of the commandments was no longer obligatory only AFTER the cross. When Jesus said these above things, it was BEFORE the cross, so weren’t the Laws of the Torah still in effect at least for the Jews?

          • CP says:

            Dina, how long will you continue to deflect and posture to avoid answering the meaning to your own words?

            Dina writes; “The flaw in CP’s reasoning is this:”

            Let’s talk about flawed reasoning: rather than comparing apples to apples you compare apples to oranges by comparing Jews living durning the days of Moses with modern Christians when you ought to be comparing those who saw Moses with those who saw Yeshua. But instead you write:

            “That is why the argument about faith is all just smoke and mirrors. You need faith in Jesus because you have nothing else to go on.
            You didn’t need faith to believe in Moses–you could just accept what your eyes saw.”

            Wow! Talk about smoke and mirrors! Lol.

            If you wanted to be honest, you’d admit both today’s Jew and today’s Christian rely on having faith in ancient writings. But you act as if you’ve seen Moses first hand and the Christian has nothing but to rely on faith – absurd!
            (Btw, the Christian also relies on the testimony of the Holy Spirit, however you’ve no reference of understanding to be able to discuss this, so I’ll leave it here)

            Dina, you’ve quoted/written the following statements:

            “we will return to Hashem”
            “Hashem will circumcise our hearts”
            “the era of rebellion against God and those He choses to lead will be over”

            Question: If you posses the sole truth in Judaism then why do you need to “return to Hashem”, have your ‘heart circumcised’ and ‘end your rebellion’?

          • Dina says:

            CP, I don’t like talking to proven liars directly, but since you keep asking:

            I didn’t compare the people of Moses’s day to modern Christians. I compared the Jews of Moses’s day to the Jews of Jesus’s day. You made up a false charge. I won’t answer false charges.

            CP, how long will you continue to deflect and posture to avoid answering challenges? You can’t answer the challenge in my post. You’re deflecting.

            Your last question is a further deflection. God promised we would retain His truth forever (Isaiah 59:21) even while we strayed (Psalm 78). He placed His testimony among Jacob and did not do so for the other nations who do not know His laws (Psalm 147).

            At the end of days, you and the billions of other Christians and the rest of the world will be coming to us to learn the truth about God. That’s what the prophets predict. We won’t be going to the Gentiles to learn about Jesus or, if you will, to the “faithful remnant” of Jews who accept Jesus who learned about Jesus from the Gentiles in the first place and who are not even an identifiable community of Jews.

          • CP says:

            Allan,
            Short on time, leaving for work, will get into depth later if you like – I have tomorrow off. The short answer is the Christians perverted this text to be about dietary laws, when even a cursory reading shows it it about Oral Torah hand washing with a truer deeper spiritual message attached.

          • Dina says:

            Alan, those stupid Christians. Imagine them thinking that “what goes in the mouth” might possibly refer to something you eat.

        • Alan says:

          CP, I read the rest of the passages and it says that nothing that a person eats can make him defiled.

    • KAVI says:

      A couple points here,

      Dina: “The Jews will not need to struggle with belief or non-belief in the Messiah. The Torah does not teach that one must believe in the Messiah.”

      A: Beginning in Genesis, Torah teaches that Messiah is the L-RD.
      _____________________

      Dina: “The Torah also does not teach that those who reject the Messiah will be punished.”

      A: The Psalms and Prophets do indeed testify that the rebels against Messiah will be punished [punishment on the nations as well as the disobedient ones of Israel.]

      Moses writes as well,
      “The L-RD said to me, ‘They have spoken well. I will raise up a prophet from among their countrymen like you, and I will put My words in his mouth, and he shall speak to them all that I command him. It shall come about that whoever will not listen to My words which he shall speak in My name, I Myself will require it of him.” [Deuteronomy 18]
      ____________________

      Dina: ‘Moses, unlike Jesus, did not demand that anyone believe in him”

      A: But G-d said otherwise,
      And the L-rd said to Moses, “Behold, I am coming to you in the thickness of the cloud, in order that the people hear when I speak to you, and they will also believe in you forever.” [Exodus 19:9]
      ___________________

      Dina: “When Moses finally started kicking Egypt in the you-know-what, the people rallied to him.”

      A: Did Moses cause the plagues or did G-d?
      _______________________

      Dina: “They stood at Mount Sinai, every last man, woman, and child of them, and heard God speak to Moses. After that, there was no question of rejection or unbelief: you accept what your eyes see.”

      A: There are so many passages to the contrary, it’s hard to know where to start. . . Let’s just say the people “accepted” Moses “so much” that they wanted to stone him to death.
      “Then Moses cried out to the L-RD, “What am I to do with these people? They are almost ready to stone me.” [Exodus 17:4]

      We also find, “You have been rebellious against the L-RD from the day I knew you.” [Deuteronomy 9:24]

      Moses sings,
      “Then He said, ‘I will hide My face from them, I will see what their end shall be; For they are a perverse generation, sons in whom is no faithfulness.” [Deuteronomy 30:20]
      _______________________

      Dina: “When the Messiah comes, it’s going to be so obvious there won’t be any need to reject or accept. We’re going to accept what our eyes will see.”

      A: Yet Ezekiel says,
      “As I entered into judgment with your fathers in the wilderness of the land of Egypt, so I will enter into judgment with you,” declares the L-rd G-D. I will make you pass under the rod, and I will bring you into the bond of the covenant; and I will purge from you the rebels and those who transgress against Me; I will bring them out of the land where they sojourn, but they will not enter the land of Israel. Thus you will know that I am the L-RD”
      [Ezekiel 20]

      And we find that only a remnant of the household of Israel will be saved,
      “Unless the LORD of hosts Had left us a few survivors, We would be like Sodom, We would be like Gomorrah.” [Isaiah 1:9]
      _________________________

      • LarryB says:

        KAVI
        “A: Beginning in Genesis, Torah teaches that Messiah is the L-RD.”

        Where does the Torah teach this?

        • KAVI says:

          LarryB,
          This topic was more extensively covered in “Exploiting Ignorance”
          https://yourphariseefriend.wordpress.com/2017/02/05/exploiting-ignorance-by-jim/

          . . .but here’s an abbreviated answer based on a similar question–

          Q: “Did Moses acknowledge Jesus as his lord and savior?”

          A: Yes– both L-RD and Savior [i.e., Redeemer]. Moses spoke face to face with his L-RD [Exodus 33 and 34] whom Moses also understood to be the L-RD’s Mashiach Redeemer [Genesis 3]

          ___________________

          • LarryB says:

            Kari
            I cannot find Jesus name anywhere in exodus or Genesis.

          • CP says:

            LarryB,
            It’s because you only look with P’shat eyes when looking for Yeshua. Yet you accept the totality of Talmud drash – double standard.

            You’re like a man searching out the deeper meanings of Tanach, but if something hints of Yeshua you quickly switch to a simple meaning, swerving to avoid any hints of Yeshua as the first advent of Messiah. Don’t you realize doing this?

          • LarryB says:

            CP
            Actually I’m just looking for the word Jesus. God has his names, Adam has a name, Isaiah has a name. Some God changed their names.

          • KAVI says:

            LarryB,
            Doesn’t Tanakh testify to G-d’s continued revelation over time of many things– not just His names?

            “Yeshua or Yehoshua” means G-d Saves. . .
            [] G-d first gave mankind the name as a concept– a promise in Genesis 3 to save us from sin.
            [] G-d then brought about fulfillment of that promise by sending the Son of Man into the world with the name, Yeshua.

            The message of G-d’s Salvation is the primary purpose of Tanakh– G-d has always been deeply concerned with overcoming satan’s power in the lives of sinful people and triumphing over him by making clean again our eternal souls.

            G-d kept His faithful promise of salvation through a Holy Redeemer– from the initial concept to full realization. . . “It is finished.”

          • LarryB says:

            KAVI
            You keep changing the subject. Your claim is simple and my question is simple.
            You claim Jesus spoke with Moses face to face, right?
            I ask where does it say that in the Torah?

          • CP says:

            LarryB says:

            “Kari
            I cannot find Jesus name anywhere in exodus or Genesis.
            CP
            Actually I’m just looking for the word Jesus. God has his names, Adam has a name, Isaiah has a name. Some God changed their names.”

            Exo 15:2
            The LORD is my strength and song, He has become my yeshu`ah: This is my God, and I will praise him; My father’s God, and I will exalt him.

          • Alan says:

            CP wrote: “Exo 15:2
            The LORD is my strength and song, He has become my yeshu`ah: This is my God, and I will praise him; My father’s God, and I will exalt him.”

            Psalms 119:155 – “Yeshua is far from the wicked for they seek not Your laws.”

            Is this “yeshua” also referring to that man?

          • LarryB says:

            CP/KAVI
            “””””Exo 15:2
            The LORD is my strength and song, He has become my yeshu`ah: This is my God, and I will praise him; My father’s God, and I will exalt him.”””””
            ——–
            Wow, CP can’t find Jesus either,

          • LarryB says:

            CP/KAVI
            ——–artscroll
            15:1. Then Moses and the children of Israel chose to sing this song to Hashem, and they said the following: I shall sing to Hashem for He is exalted above the arrogant, having hurled horse with its rider into the sea.
            15:2, The might and vengeance of God was salvation for me. This is my God and I will build him a sanctuary.
            15:3, Hashem is Master of war-his name is Hashem.
            I did a search in my bible, it lets me do that, and it said the word Jesus is Not Found.

          • Dina says:

            Larry, here is a good one:

            Obadiah 1:21: And saviors will ascend Mount Zion to judge the Mountain of Esau, and the kingdom will be Hashem’s.

            Who are the saviors? The trinity? Jesus and Jesus? A two-advent explanation doesn’t work in this context, as the multiple saviors will ascend together to perform a specific action.

          • CP says:

            LarryB, show me Moses, Isaiah or Jeremiah before they came. It’s only you who demands this proof of Yeshua which you demand from no one else.

            Of course Isaiah and Jeremiah were killed and people wanted to stone Moses – Id say Yeshua is in pretty good company!

          • Dina says:

            Larry, ask CP for a source in the Hebrew Bible for the murders of Isaiah and Jeremiah.

          • LarryB says:

            Dina
            CP talks in code but here goes “””CP your source in the Hebrew Bible for the murders of Isaiah and Jeremiah.”””””??????

          • LarryB says:

            CP
            “”””””LarryB, show me Moses, Isaiah or Jeremiah before they came. It’s only you who demands this proof of Yeshua which you demand from no one else.”””””””
            ———-
            You first, show me What scripture’s in the Torah do you base your belief that Jesus is the messiah?

          • CP says:

            LarryB writes: “I did a search in my bible, it lets me do that, and it said the word Jesus is Not Found.”

            Now why in the world would you even presume to think an evolved Greek name would be found in a Hebrew Bible?
            Totally absurd.

            However Hashem is salvation is all through the Hebrew Scriptures.
            😉

          • Dina says:

            Larry, can you spot the circular reasoning here? You have to believe that “Hashem is salvation” means “Jesus” in order to believe that it’s talking about Jesus. This also from someone who claims to not believe Jesus is Hashem.

          • CP says:

            Dina, since you couldn’t or wouldn’t even touch questions concerning various theophanies, Your clearly in over your head on this subject.

          • Dina says:

            My friends, please raise your hand if you’ve heard me discuss theophanies in great depth previously.

            It may have been before CP’s time, as I discussed it extensively with Charles Soper (anyone remember him?). I’m not as dumb as CP thinks I am.

          • Dina says:

            The so-called theophanies are used by Christians to support belief in a trinity, or the belief that God appears in human form to justify the worship of Jesus as a man. Perhaps CP is really a trinitarian after all.

          • LarryB says:

            Dina
            CP is frightened to answer basic questions, yet your in over your head. The shell game continues.

          • Dina says:

            Yup, that’s how it goes when you’re teetering on structure built on nothing.

          • CP says:

            Dina, you write; “I’m not as dumb as CP thinks I am.”

            Dina, I don’t think you are dumb, I fact I think you are very talented and smart. I can see God has gifted you with intelligence and skills you’ve developed over time.

            That said, I do believe you are incredibly biased to the point that you do not value the views of others. For example: Isaiah 53, you say it’s about Israel as OPPOSED to Yeshua. I come along and say yes, it is about Israel, but the scripture contains a dual meaning, therefore it is ALSO about Yeshua

            This you vehemently deny and this is where you tip your hand; because the Yeshua interpretation DOES fit in addition to the Israel interpretation yet you insist on arguing it is ONLY about Israel and cannot possibly be about Yeshua – Sheker, Ein Lo Raglayim

          • CP says:

            Dina writes:
            “The so-called theophanies are used by Christians to support belief in a trinity, or the belief that God appears in human form to justify the worship of Jesus as a man. Perhaps CP is really a trinitarian after all.”

            Dina, I doubt very much you know much about this subject because you didn’t have to pray and study yourself out of Trinitarism. The whole idea comes from the Hebrew Scriptures and Rabbinic writings and does have some merit when viewed from the proper perspective. Granted there are those who pervert it into idol worship, however there are those like you who deny the writings of your own religion and throw the baby out with the bath water.

            Do you really think when Messiah comes you’ll be able to brush his agency aside declaring; ‘I don’t need to listen to you, I go straight to God, get out of my way!’?

          • CP says:

            Genesis
            The Messiah would be born of the “seed” of a woman Genesis 3:15 Luke 1:34-35
            The Messiah would defeat Satan Genesis 3:15 1 John 3:8
            Yeah Larry I’m so frightened.

            Genesis
            The Messiah would be born of the “seed” of a woman Genesis 3:15 Luke 1:34-35
            The Messiah would defeat Satan Genesis 3:15 1 John 3:8
            The Messiah would suffer while reconciling men to God Genesis 3:15 1 Peter 3:18
            The Messiah would be a descendant of Seth Genesis 4:25 Luke 3:23-38
            The Messiah would be a descendant of Shem Genesis 9:26 Luke 3:23-36
            The Messiah would be a descendant of Abraham Genesis 12:3 Matthew 1:1
            The Messiah would be a descendant of Isaac Genesis 17:19 Luke 3:23-34
            The Messiah would come for all nations Genesis 18:18 Acts 3:24-26
            The Messiah would be a descendant of Isaac Genesis 21:12 Luke 3:23-34
            The Messiah would be as a sacrificial lamb Genesis 22:8 John 1:29
            The Messiah would be sacrificed upon the same mountain where God tested Abraham Genesis 22:14 Luke 23:33
            The Messiah would bless all nations Genesis 22:18 Galatians 3:14
            The Messiah would be a descendant of Isaac Genesis 26:4 Luke 3:23-34
            The Messiah would be a descendant of Jacob Genesis 28:14 Luke 3:23-34
            The Messiah would come for all people Genesis 28:14 Galatians 3:26-29
            The Messiah would be a descendant of Judah Genesis 49:10 Luke 3:23-33
            The Messiah would be King of Israel Genesis 49:10 John 1:49
            The Messiah’s authority shall extend to all nations Genesis 49:10 Jude 1:25
            The Messiah would be the “vine” Genesis 49:11 John 15:1-5

            Exodus
            None of the Messiah’s bones would be broken Exodus 12:46 John 19:32-33
            The Messiah would be slaughtered as the Passover lamb. Exodus 12:21-22 Revelation 5:12

            Numbers
            None of the Messiah’s bones would be broken Numbers 9:12 John 19:32-33
            The Messiah would be King of Israel Numbers 24:17 John 19:19

            Deuteronomy
            The Messiah would be a Prophet Deuteronomy 18:15 Matthew 21:11
            The Messiah would be a Prophet Deuteronomy 18:18 Matthew 21:11
            God would speak through the Messiah Deuteronomy 18:18 John 12:49
            The Messiah would be made a curse to redeem man Deuteronomy 21:23 Galatians 3:13
            The Messiah would be worshiped by angels at his birth Deuteronomy 32:43 Luke 2:13-14

            Ruth
            The Messiah would be a descendant of Boaz & Ruth Ruth 4:12-17 Luke 3:23-32

            1 Samuel
            The Messiah would be exalted by God with power and strength 1 Samuel 2:10 Matthew 28:18

            2 Samuel
            The Messiah would be a descendant of David 2 Samuel 7:12-13 Matthew 1:1
            The Messiah would be the Son of God 2 Samuel 7:13-14 Matthew 3:16-17
            The Messiah would be a descendant of David 2 Samuel 7:16 Matthew 1:1
            The Messiah would come for all people 2 Samuel 22:50 Romans 15:8-9
            The Messiah would be the “Rock” 2 Samuel 23:2-4 1 Corinthians 10:4
            The Messiah would be as the “light of the morning” 2 Samuel 23:2-4 Revelation 22:16

            1 Chronicles
            The Messiah would be a descendant of Judah 1 Chronicles 5:2 Luke 3:23-33
            The Messiah would be a descendant of David 1 Chronicles 17:11-12 Luke 3:23-31
            The Messiah’s throne would be everlasting 1 Chronicles 17:11-12 Luke 1:32-33
            The Messiah would be the Son of God 1 Chronicles 17:13-14 Matthew 3:16-17

            Psalms
            The Messiah would be rejected by Gentiles Psalm 2:1 Acts 4:25-28
            Political and religious leaders would conspire against the Messiah Psalm 2:2 Matthew 26:3-4
            The Messiah would be a King Psalm 2:6 John 12:12-13
            The Messiah would be the Son of God Psalm 2:7 Luke 1:31-35
            The Messiah would declare that he was the Son of God Psalm 2:7 John 9:35-37
            The Messiah would be resurrected and crowned as King Psalm 2:7 Acts 13:30-33
            The Messiah would ask God for His inheritance Psalm 2:8 John 17:4-24
            The Messiah would receive authority over all Psalm 2:8 Matthew 28:18
            The Messiah would be the Son of God Psalm 2:12 Matthew 17:5
            The Messiah would reject those who did not believe in him Psalm 2:12 John 3:36
            Infants would give praise to the Messiah Psalm 8:2 Matthew 21:15-16
            The Messiah would be given authority over all things Psalm 8:6 Matthew 28:18
            The Messiah would be resurrected Psalm 16:8-10 Matthew 28:6
            The Messiah’s body would not be subject to decay Psalm 16:8-10 Acts 13:35-37
            The Messiah would be exalted to the presence of God Psalm 16:11 Acts 2:25-33
            The Messiah would come for all people Psalm 18:49 Ephesians 3:4-6
            The Messiah would cry out to God Psalm 22:1 Matthew 27:46
            The Messiah would be forsaken by God Psalm 22:1 Mark 15:34
            The Messiah anguished would pray without ceasing Psalm 22:2 Matthew 26:38-39
            The Messiah would be despised Psalm 22:6 Luke 23:21-23
            The Messiah would be mocked by people shaking their heads Psalm 22:7 Matthew 27:39
            Mockers would say of the Messiah, “he trusted God let him deliver him” Psalm 22:8 Matthew 27:41-43
            The Messiah would be aware of his Father from his youth Psalm 22:9 Luke 2:40
            The Messiah would be called to God’s service from the womb Psalm 22:10 Luke 1:30-33
            The Messiah would be abandoned by the disciples Psalm 22:11 Mark 14:50
            The Messiah would be surrounded by evil spirits Psalm 22:12-13 Colossians 2:15
            The Messiah’s heart would burst flowing with blood & water Psalm 22:14 John 19:34
            The Messiah would be crucified Psalm 22:14 Matthew 27:35
            The Messiah would thirst Psalm 22:15 John 19:28
            The Messiah would thirst shortly before his death Psalm 22:15 John 19:30
            The Messiah would be surrounded by Gentiles at his crucifixion Psalm 22:16 Luke 23:36
            The Messiah would be surrounded by enemies at his crucifixion Psalm 22:16 Matthew 27:41-43
            The Messiah’s hands and feet would be pierced Psalm 22:16 Matthew 27:38
            None of the Messiah’s bones would be broken Psalm 22:17 John 19:32-33
            People would stare at the Messiah during his crucifixion Psalm 22:17 Luke 23:35
            The Messiah’s garments would be divided Psalm 22:18 John 19:23-24
            Lots would be cast for the Messiah’s clothes Psalm 22:18 John 19:23-24
            The Messiah’s atonement would enable believers to be his brethren Psalm 22:22 Hebrews 2:10-12
            The Messiah’s enemies would stumble and fall when they came for him Psalm 27:2 John 18:3-6
            The Messiah would be accused by false witnesses Psalm 27:12 Matthew 26:59-61
            The Messiah would cry out “into thy hands I commend my spirit” Psalm 31:5 Luke 23:46
            The Messiah would be a descendant of David Psalm 89:29 Matthew 1:1
            The Messiah would be a descendant of David Psalm 89:35-36 Matthew 1:1
            The Messiah would be eternal Psalm 102:25-27 Colossians 1:17
            The Messiah would be the creator of all Psalm 102:25-27 John 1:3
            The Messiah would be accused by false witnesses Psalm 109:2 John 18:29-30
            The Messiah would pray for his enemies Psalm 109:4 Luke 23:34
            The Messiah’s betrayer would have a short life Psalm 109:8 Acts 1:16-18
            The Messiah’s betrayer would be replaced Psalm 109:8 Acts 1:20-26
            The Messiah would be mocked by people shaking their heads Psalm 109:25 Mark 15:29-30
            The Messiah would be Lord Psalm 110:1 Matthew 22:41-45
            The Messiah would be at the right hand of God Psalm 110:1 Mark 16:19
            The Messiah would be a Priest in the order of Melchizedek Psalm 110:4 Hebrews 6:17-20
            The Messiah would be at the right hand of God Psalm 110:5 1 Peter 3:21-22
            The Messiah would be the stone” rejected by Israel Psalm 118:22 Matthew 21:42-43
            There would be plots to kill the Messiah Psalm 31:13 Matthew 27:1
            None of the Messiah’s bones would be broken Psalm 34:20 John 19:32-33
            The Messiah would be accused by false witnesses Psalm 35:11 Mark 14:55-59
            The Messiah would be hated by many without cause Psalm 35:19 John 18:19-23
            The Messiah would be silent before his accusers Psalm 38:13-14 Matthew 26:62-63
            The Messiah’s offering of himself would replace all sacrifices Psalm 40:6-8 Hebrews 10:10-13
            The Messiah would say the scriptures were written of him Psalm 40:6-8 Luke 24:44
            The Messiah would come to do God’s will Psalm 40:7-8 John 5:30
            The Messiah would not conceal his mission from the congregation Psalm 40:9-10 Luke 4:16-21
            The Messiah’s betrayer would be a friend whom he broke bread with Psalm 41:9 Mark 14:17-18
            The Messiah would speak with a message of grace Psalm 45:2 Luke 4:22
            The Messiah’s throne would be everlasting Psalm 45:6-7 Luke 1:31-33
            The Messiah would be God Psalm 45:6-7 Hebrews 1:8-9
            The Messiah would act with righteousness Psalm 45:6-7 John 5:30
            The Messiah would be betrayed by a friend Psalm 55:12-14 Luke 22:47-48
            The Messiah would ascend into heaven Psalm 68:18 Luke 24:51
            The Messiah would give gifts to men Psalm 68:18 Matthew 10:1
            The Messiah would be hated by many without cause Psalm 69:4 Luke 23:13-22
            The Messiah would bear reproach for God’s sake Psalm 69:7 Matthew 26:65-67
            The Messiah would be rejected by his people Psalm 69:8 John 1:11
            The Messiah’s brothers would disbelieve him Psalm 69:8 John 7:3-5
            The Messiah would be angered by disrespect toward the temple Psalm 69:9 John 2:13-17
            The Messiah would bear reproach for God’s sake Psalm 69:9 Romans 15:3
            The Messiah’s heart would be broken Psalm 69:20 John 19:34
            The Messiah’s disciples would fail him in his time of need Psalm 69:20 Mark 14:33-41
            The Messiah would be offered gall and vinegar Psalm 69:21 Matthew 27:34
            The Messiah would thirst Psalm 69:21 John 19:28
            The potter’s field would be uninhabited Psalm 69:25 Acts 1:16-20
            The Messiah would speak in parables Psalm 78:2 Matthew 13:34-35
            The Messiah would be at the right hand of God Psalm 80:17 Acts 5:31
            The Messiah would be a descendant of David Psalm 89:3-4 Matthew 1:1
            The Messiah would call God his Father Psalm 89:26 Matthew 11:27
            The Messiah would be God’s “firstborn Psalm 89:27 Mark 16:6
            The Messiah would be a descendant of David Psalm 89:29 Matthew 1:1
            The Messiah would be a descendant of David Psalm 89:35-36 Matthew 1:1
            The Messiah would be eternal Psalm 102:25-27 Colossians 1:17
            The Messiah would be the creator of all Psalm 102:25-27b John 1:3
            The Messiah would be accused by false witnesses Psalm 109:2 John 18:29-30
            The Messiah would pray for his enemies Psalm 109:4 Luke 23:34
            The Messiah’s betrayer would have a short life Psalm 109:8 Acts 1:16-18
            The Messiah’s betrayer would be replaced Psalm 109:8 Acts 1:20-26
            The Messiah would be mocked by people shaking their heads Psalm 109:25 Mark 15:29-30
            The Messiah would be Lord Psalm 110:1 Matthew 22:41-45
            The Messiah would be at the right hand of God Psalm 110:1 Mark 16:19
            The Messiah would be a Priest in the order of Melchizedek Psalm 110:4 Hebrews 6:17-20
            The Messiah would be at the right hand of God Psalm 110:5 1 Peter 3:21-22
            The stone the builders rejected has become the cornerstone Psalm 118:22 Matthew 21:42-43
            The Messiah would come in the name of the Lord Psalm 118:26 Matthew 21:9
            The Messiah would be a descendant of David Psalm 132:11 Matthew 1:1
            The Messiah would be a descendant of David Psalm 132:17 Matthew 1:1

            Proverbs
            The Messiah would be from everlasting Proverbs 8:22-23 John 17:5
            The Messiah would ascend and descend from heaven Proverbs 30:4 John 3:13
            God would have a Son Proverbs 30:4 Matthew 3:16-17

            Isaiah
            Israel would have a hardened heart against the Messiah Isaiah 6:9-10 John 12:37-40
            The Messiah would speak in parables Isaiah 6:9-10 Matthew 13:13-15
            The Messiah would be a descendant of David Isaiah 7:13-14 Matthew 1:1
            The Messiah would be born of a virgin Isaiah 7:14 Luke 1:34-35
            The Messiah would be Immanuel “God with us.” Isaiah 7:14 Matthew 1:21-23
            The Messiah would be God Isaiah 7:14 John 12:45
            The Messiah would be a “stumbling stone” for Israel Isaiah 8:14 Matthew 21:43-44
            The Messiah would minister in Galilee Isaiah 9:1-2 Matthew 4:12-17
            The Messiah would be a light to the Gentiles Isaiah 9:1-2 Luke 2:28-32
            The birth of the Messiah Isaiah 9:6 Luke 2:11
            The Messiah would be the Son of God Isaiah 9:6 Luke 1:35
            The Messiah would be the “Wonderful Counselor” Isaiah 9:6 John 7:46
            The Messiah would be both man and God the “Mighty God” Isaiah 9:6 John 10:30
            The Messiah would be from everlasting the “Everlasting Father” Isaiah 9:6 Revelation 1:8
            The Messiah would be the “Prince of Peace” Isaiah 9:6 Colossians 1:20
            The Messiah would be a descendant of Jesse Isaiah 11:1 Luke 3:23-32
            The Messiah would grow up in a poor family Isaiah 11:1 Luke 2:7
            The Messiah would grow up in Nazareth Isaiah 11:1 Matthew 2:21-23
            The Messiah would have the full Spirit of God upon him Isaiah 11:2 Matthew 3:16-17
            The Messiah would have the Spirit of Wisdom Isaiah 11:2 Luke 2:40
            The Messiah would have the Spirit of Understanding Isaiah 11:2 Luke 2:40
            The Messiah would have the Spirit of Counsel Isaiah 11:2 Matthew 7:28-29
            The Messiah would have the Spirit of Might Isaiah 11:2 Matthew 8:27
            The Messiah would have the Spirit of the Knowledge of God Isaiah 11:2 John 7:29
            The Messiah would have the Spirit of the Fear of God Isaiah 11:2 Hebrews 5:7
            The Messiah would have a quick understanding in the fear of the Lord Isaiah 11:3 Luke 2:46-47
            The Messiah would not judge on the basis of external representations Isaiah 11:3 John 7:24
            The Messiah would judge the poor with righteousness Isaiah 11:4 Mark 12:41-44
            The Messiah would be a descendant of Jesse Isaiah 11:10 Luke 3:23-32
            The Messiah would come for all people Isaiah 11:10 Acts 13:47-48
            The Messiah would have the key of David Isaiah 22:22 Revelation 3:7
            The Messiah would defeat death Isaiah 25:8 Revelation 1:18
            Others would rise to life at the resurrection of the Messiah Isaiah 26:19 Matthew 27:52-53
            The Messiah would be the cornerstone Isaiah 28:16 1 Peter 2:4-6
            The Messiah would heal the blind Isaiah 35:5 Mark 10:51-52
            The Messiah would heal the deaf Isaiah 35:5 Mark 7:32-35
            The Messiah would heal the lame Isaiah 35:6 Matthew 12:10-13
            The Messiah would heal the dumb Isaiah 35:6 Matthew 9:32-33
            The forerunner of the Messiah would live in the wilderness Isaiah 40:3 Matthew 3:1-4
            The forerunner would prepare people for the coming of the Messiah Isaiah 40:3 Luke 1:17
            The Messiah would be God Isaiah 40:3 John 10:30
            The Messiah would be as a shepherd Isaiah 40:11 John 10:11
            The Messiah would be God’s servant Isaiah 42:1 John 4:34
            The Messiah would have the Spirit of God upon him Isaiah 42:1 Matthew 3:16-17
            The Messiah would please God Isaiah 42:1 Matthew 3:16-17
            The Messiah would not draw attention to himself Isaiah 42:2 Matthew 12:15-21
            The Messiah would have compassion for the poor and needy Isaiah 42:3 Matthew 11:4-5
            The Messiah would receive guidance from God Isaiah 42:6 John 5:19-20
            The Messiah would be ministered to by God Isaiah 42:6 John 8:29
            The Messiah would be the new covenant Isaiah 42:6 Matthew 26:28
            The Messiah would be a light to the Gentiles Isaiah 42:6 John 8:12
            The Messiah would heal the blind Isaiah 42:7 Matthew 9:27-30
            The Messiah would be from everlasting Isaiah 48:16 John 1:1-2
            The Messiah would be sent from God Isaiah 48:16 John 7:29
            The Messiah would come for all people Isaiah 49:1 1 Timothy 2:4-6
            The Messiah would be called to God’s service from the womb Isaiah 49:1 Matthew 1:20-21
            The Messiah would be called by his name before he was born Isaiah 49:1 Luke 1:30-31
            The Messiah’s words would be as a sharp sword Isaiah 49:2 Revelation 2:12-16
            The Messiah would be protected by God Isaiah 49:2 Matthew 2:13-15
            The Messiah would be responsible for the judgment of mankind Isaiah 49:2 John 5:22-29
            The Messiah would be God’s servant Isaiah 49:3 John 17:4
            The Messiah’s work would glorify God Isaiah 49:3 Matthew 15:30-31
            The Messiah would be distressed over Israel’s unbelief Isaiah 49:4 Luke 19:41-42
            The Messiah would be God’s servant Isaiah 49:5 John 6:38
            The Messiah would come to bring Israel back to God Isaiah 49:5 Matthew 15:24
            The Messiah would be God’s servant Isaiah 49:6 John 12:49-50
            The Messiah would be a light to the Gentiles Isaiah 49:6 Acts 13:47-48
            The Messiah would be despised Isaiah 49:7 John 10:20
            The Messiah would speak with knowledge given to him from God Isaiah 50:4 John 12:49
            The Messiah would not be rebellious to God’s will Isaiah 50:5 John 12:27
            The Messiah’s back would be whipped Isaiah 50:6 Matthew 27:26
            The Messiah’s face would be beaten and spit upon Isaiah 50:6 Matthew 26:67
            The Messiah would steadfastly set his face toward his mission Isaiah 50:7 Luke 9:51-53
            The Messiah would be justified by his righteousness Isaiah 50:8 1 Timothy 3:16
            The Messiah would place his trust in God Isaiah 50:8-10 John 11:7-10
            The Messiah would be God’s servant Isaiah 52:13 John 9:4
            The Messiah would be highly exalted Isaiah 52:13 Philippians 2:9-11
            The Messiah’s face would be disfigured from severe beatings Isaiah 52:14 Matthew 26:67-68
            The Messiah’s blood would be shed to make atonement for all Isaiah 52:15 Revelation 1:5
            The Messiah’s own people would not believe he was the Christ Isaiah 53:1 John 12:37-38
            The Messiah would grow up in Nazareth Isaiah 53:2 Matthew 2:21-23
            The Messiah would have the appearance of an ordinary man Isaiah 53:2 Philippians 2:7-8
            The Messiah would be despised Isaiah 53:3 Luke 4:28-29
            The Messiah would be rejected Isaiah 53:3 Matthew 27:21-23
            The Messiah would have great sorrow and grief Isaiah 53:3 Luke 19:41-42
            Men would hide from being associated with the Messiah Isaiah 53:3 Mark 14:50-52
            The Messiah would have a healing ministry Isaiah 53:4 Luke 6:17-19
            The Messiah would bear and carry upon himself the sins of the world Isaiah 53:4 1 Peter 2:24
            The Messiah would be thought to be cursed by God Isaiah 53:4 Matthew 27:41-43
            The Messiah would bear the penalty for mankind’s transgressions Isaiah 53:5 Luke 23:33
            The Messiah’s sacrifice would provide peace between man and God Isaiah 53:5 Colossians 1:20
            The Messiah’s back would be whipped Isaiah 53:5 Matthew 27:26
            The Messiah would be the sin-bearer for all mankind Isaiah 53:6 Galatians 1:4
            The Messiah would be oppressed and afflicted Isaiah 53:7 Matthew 27:27-31
            The Messiah would be silent before his accusers Isaiah 53:7 Matthew 27:12-14
            The Messiah would be as a sacrificial lamb Isaiah 53:7 John 1:29
            The Messiah would be confined and persecuted Isaiah 53:8 Matthew 26:47-27:31
            The Messiah would be judged Isaiah 53:8 John 18:13-22
            The Messiah would be killed Isaiah 53:8 Matthew 27:35
            The Messiah would die for the sins of the world Isaiah 53:8 1 John 2:2
            The Messiah would be buried in a rich man’s grave Isaiah 53:9 Matthew 27:57
            The Messiah would be innocent and had done no violence Isaiah 53:9 Mark 15:3
            The Messiah would have no deceit in his mouth Isaiah 53:9 John 18:38
            It was God’s will that the Messiah would die for all mankind Isaiah 53:10 John 18:11
            The Messiah would be an offering for sin Isaiah 53:10 Matthew 20:28
            The Messiah would be resurrected and live forever Isaiah 53:10 Mark 16:16
            The Messiah would prosper Isaiah 53:10 John 17:1-5
            God would be fully satisfied with the suffering of the Messiah Isaiah 53:11 John 12:27
            The Messiah would be God’s servant Isaiah 53:11 Romans 5:18-19
            The Messiah would justify man before God Isaiah 53:11 Romans 5:8-9
            The Messiah would be the sin-bearer for all mankind Isaiah 53:11 Hebrews 9:28
            Because of his sacrifice the Messiah would be greatly exalted by God Isaiah 53:12 Matthew 28:18
            The Messiah would give up his life to save mankind Isaiah 53:12 Luke 23:46
            The Messiah would be grouped with criminals Isaiah 53:12 Luke 23:32
            The Messiah would be the sin-bearer for all mankind Isaiah 53:12 2 Corinthians 5:21
            The Messiah would intercede to God in behalf of mankind Isaiah 53:12 Luke 23:34
            The Messiah would be resurrected by God Isaiah 55:3 Acts 13:34
            The Messiah would be a witness Isaiah 55:4 John 18:37
            The Messiah would come to provide salvation Isaiah 59:15-16 John 6:40
            The Messiah would be the intercessor between man and God Isaiah 59:15-16 Matthew 10:32-33
            The Messiah would come to Zion as their Redeemer Isaiah 59:20 Luke 2:38
            The Messiah would have the Spirit of God upon him Isaiah 61:1 Matthew 3:16-17
            The Messiah would preach the good news Isaiah 61:1-2 Luke 4:18-21
            The Messiah would come to provide salvation Isaiah 63:5 John 3:17
            The Messiah would be discovered by a people who were not seeking him Isaiah 65:1 Matthew 15:22-28
            The Messiah would be rejected by Israel Isaiah 65:2 John 5:37-40

            Jeremiah
            The Messiah would be a descendant of David Jeremiah 23:5 Luke 3:23-31
            The Messiah would be Lord Jeremiah 23:6 John 13:13
            Infants would die during an attempt to kill the baby Messiah Jeremiah 31:15 Matthew 2:16
            The Messiah would be born of a virgin Jeremiah 31:22 Matthew 1:18-20
            The Messiah would be the new covenant Jeremiah 31:31 Matthew 26:28
            The Messiah would be a descendant of David Jeremiah 33:14-15 Luke 3:23-31

            Lamentations
            The Messiah would be struck on the face Lamentations 3:30 John 18:22

            Ezekiel
            The Messiah would be a descendant of David Ezekiel 17:22-24 Luke 3:23-31
            The Messiah would be a descendant of David Ezekiel 34:23-24 Matthew 1:1

            Daniel
            The Messiah would ascend into heaven Daniel 7:13-14 Acts 1:9-11
            The Messiah would be highly exalted Daniel 7:13-14 Ephesians 1:20-22
            The Messiah’s dominion would be everlasting Daniel 7:13-14 Luke 1:31-33
            The Messiah would come to make an end to sins Daniel 9:24 Galatians 1:3-5
            The Messiah would be holy Daniel 9:24 Luke 1:35
            The Messiah would be announced to his people 483 years to the exact day after the decree to rebuild the city of Jerusalem Daniel 9:25 John 12:12-13
            The Messiah would be killed Daniel 9:26 Matthew 27:35
            The Messiah would die for the sins of the world Daniel 9:26 Hebrews 2:9
            The Messiah would be killed before the destruction of the temple Daniel 9:26 Matthew 27:50-51
            A vision of the Messiah in a glorified state Daniel 10:5-6 Revelation 1:13-16

            Hosea
            The Messiah would be the Son of God Hosea 11:1 Matthew 2:13-15
            The Messiah would be called out of Egypt Hosea 11:1 Matthew 2:13-15
            The Messiah would defeat death Hosea 13:14 1 Corinthians 15:55-57

            Joel
            The Messiah would offer salvation to all mankind Joel 2:32 Romans 10:12-13

            Amos
            God would cause the sky to be darkened at noon Amos 8:9 Matthew 27:45-46

            Micah
            The Messiah would be born in Bethlehem Micah 5:2 Matthew 2:1-2
            The Messiah would be God’s servant Micah 5:2 John 15:10
            The Messiah would be from everlasting Micah 5:2 Revelation 1:8

            Haggai
            The Messiah would visit the second Temple Haggai 2:6-9 Luke 2:27-32
            The Messiah would be a descendant of Zerubbabel Haggai 2:23 Luke 3:23-27

            Zechariah
            The Messiah would be God as man and dwell among his people Zechariah 2:10-11 John 1:14
            The Messiah would be sent by God Zechariah 2:10-11 John 8:18-19
            The Messiah would be a descendant of Zerubbabel Zechariah 3:8 Luke 3:23-27
            The Messiah would be God’s servant Zechariah 3:8 John 17:4
            The Messiah would be Priest and King Zechariah 6:12-13 Hebrews 8:1
            The Messiah would be greeted with rejoicing in Jerusalem Zechariah 9:9 Matthew 21:8-10
            The Messiah would be beheld as King Zechariah 9:9 John 12:12-13
            The Messiah would be just Zechariah 9:9 John 5:30
            The Messiah would bring salvation Zechariah 9:9 Luke 19:10
            The Messiah would be humble Zechariah 9:9 Matthew 11:29
            The Messiah would be presented to Jerusalem riding on a donkey Zechariah 9:9 Matthew 21:6-9
            The Messiah would be the cornerstone Zechariah 10:4 Ephesians 2:20
            The Messiah’s rejection would cause God to remove His protection of Israel Zechariah 11:10 Luke 19:41-44
            The Messiah would be betrayed for thirty pieces of silver Zechariah 11:12 Mathew 26:14-15
            Thirty pieces of silver would be thrown into the house of the Lord Zechariah 11:13 Matthew 27:3-5
            Thirty pieces of silver would be used to buy the potter’s field Zechariah 11:13 Matthew 27:6-7
            The Messiah’s body would be pierced Zechariah 12:10 John 19:34
            The Messiah would be God’s equal Zechariah 13:7 John 14:9
            The Messiah’s disciples would be “scattered.” Zechariah 13:7 Matthew 26:31-56

            Malachi
            A messenger would prepare the way for the Messiah Malachi 3:1 Matthew 11:10
            The Messiah would make a sudden appearance at the temple Malachi 3:1 Mark 11:15-16
            The Messiah would be the messenger of the new covenant Malachi 3:1 Luke 4:43
            The Messiah’s forerunner would come in the spirit of Elijah Malachi 4:5 Matthew 3:1-2
            The Messiah’s forerunner would turn many to righteousness Malachi 4:6 Luke 1:16-17

          • CP I suggest you read – “Of Whom Speaketh the Prophet” 1000 Verses – a project of Judaism Resources wrote: >

          • CP says:

            LarryB
            The above list is from Yeshua.Org. I only post it to show it’s just not one, two or three things in the Hebrew Scriptures that can be interpreted as pointing to Yeshua as the first advent of Messiah. I’m sure some, many or the majority could be argued, I would even argue against some, but that still leaves many that point to the possibility of Yeshua as the first advent of Messiah.

          • LarryB says:

            CP
            Since you cannot stick to the question I’ll repost yet again. If I wanted someone else’s belief I would have asked them. Especially from the outset you admit you disagree with them. Look at that, their trinitarians. How about that disclaimer?
            This proves you are fearful by pushing others in front of yourself and hiding.
            ————-
            LarryB says:
            March 1, 2017 at 9:55 am
            CP
            I have in another thread but will again. What scripture’s in the Torah do base your belief that Jesus is the messiah
            —————-
            From yeshoua?org. website
            DISCLAIMER
            Though the opinions and views of the writer’s / contributors may differ in some regards, each are in agreement with the Yeshua.org Statement of Faith. Other than agreement with the Yeshua.org Statement of Faith, the views of the writers / contributors do not necessarily represent the views of Yeshua.org
            STATEMENT OF FAITH
            Yeshua.org affirms the following:
            The doctrine of the Trinity.
            The death, burial, and physical resurrection of Jesus Christ.
            Salvation by grace, through faith.
            The authority and divine inspiration of Scripture, including miraculous accounts, which in our time may include entirely un-sensational and ordinary events.
            A coming Judgment Day, accomplished with the Second Coming of Christ, who will appear in his own time, and in his own way.

          • CP says:

            LarryB, you write; “This proves you are fearful by pushing others in front of yourself and hiding.”

            actually, Larry, it doesn’t, I’ve posted with my morning coffee getting ready for work, I’ve posted at break and lunch, even now I’m not home from work. All it proves is I haven’t had time to address your question, which btw I think is a very fair question.

          • KAVI says:

            LarryB,
            While eating my pączki this morning, I was thinking about you since, if I remember correctly, you likewise have Polish roots.

            Since Dina could not answer my question, let me rephrase it [keeping in mind the death bed proclamations of the Sage, Ribaz]:

            Q: When you die, in what way have your sins been cleansed away enough to stand holy in the Almighty’s presence?

            Note: I’m not interested in making a rebuttal to your answer– and I will not reply unless you have a question of me . . .
            _____________________________

          • LarryB says:

            KAVI
            Sorry, I do not know this Ribaz. So I cannot answer your question.

          • KAVI says:

            LarryB,
            Ribaz is short for Rabbi Yochanan ben Zakkai– a Jewish Sage who lived during the first century and survived the siege of Jerusalem in 70AD.

            From Berachot 28b:
            “When R. Jochanan ben Zakkai was ill, his disciples went in to visit him. On beholding them he began to weep. They said to him, ‘O lamp of Israel, right hand pillar, mighty hammer! wherefore do you weep?’ He replied to them, ‘If I was being led into the presence of a human king who today is here and tomorrow is in the grave, who if he was wrathful against me his anger would not be eternal, who if he imprisoned me the imprisonment would not be everlasting, who if he condemned me to death the death would not be forever, and whom I can appease with words and bribe with money — even then I would weep; but now, when I am being led into the presence of the King of kings, the Holy One, blessed be he, who lives and endures for all eternity, who if he be wrathful against me his anger is eternal, who if he imprisons me the imprisonment is everlasting, who if he condemns me to death the death is forever, and whom I cannot appease with words or bribe with money — nay more, when before me lie two ways, one of Gan Eden [heaven] and the other of Gehinnom [hell], and I know not to which I am to be led — shall I not weep?”

            Rooted in Tanakh, I find unyielding comfort that a Redeeming Deliverer mightier than I has circumcised the sin from my inner being [soul].

            Since Ribaz was seriously concerned about his holiness before the Almighty Judge in Heaven, I was wondering what your perspective was–
            Q: When you die, in what way have your sins been cleansed away enough for you to stand holy in the Almighty’s presence?

            ____________________________

          • RT says:

            CP, we do not want a list of 365 prophecies.

            http://www.truth2u.org/tag/365-messianic-prophecies/

            You are playing with smoke and mirrors! Instead of showing one prophecy that could fit, you try to trick us by putting a list of so called prophecies. As Dina said 365 * 0 = 0! You can only convince yourself with such non-sense. Unless you want to check properly one prophecy at a time, then you can only deceive yourself. Basically, you will be doing something like that… I will point to one prophecy, you may choose which one! Then we will look at it and I will show you it does not fit JESUS! And you will say something like that. Yes but there are still 364 prophecies that fits Jesus. We may look as many as you want, and I will prove to you that it does not talk about Jesus. After 2 or 3, you will still say, but there is still many that fit Jesus, and you will soon forget about the previous debunked prophecies. I may debunk all the prophecies, as Michael Skobac, I actually don’t have to listen to him. It’s quite easy for most of them. Just read the context. And then what, you will clench to your hope of a false messiah, because you don’t really want to see if it is true or not. Your eternity with your blessed messiah Yeshua Hamashiach depends of you not looking at those seriously. You are not there to check the truth, you are there to convince yourself that your truth is the truth. That’s why you show this useless list.

            Genesis
            The Messiah would be born of the “seed” of a woman Genesis 3:15 Luke 1:34-35

            SO IS THE REST OF THE WORLD!

            The Messiah would defeat Satan Genesis 3:15 1 John 3:8

            That does not even mention SATAN. In fact, all the animals of the earth were good, including the serpent.

            The Messiah would suffer while reconciling men to God Genesis 3:15 1 Peter 3:18

            Take it literally and there is no prophecy there.

            The Messiah would be a descendant of Seth Genesis 4:25 Luke 3:23-38
            The Messiah would be a descendant of Shem Genesis 9:26 Luke 3:23-36
            The Messiah would be a descendant of Abraham Genesis 12:3 Matthew 1:1
            The Messiah would be a descendant of Isaac Genesis 17:19 Luke 3:23-34

            So are all the Jews

            The Messiah would come for all nations Genesis 18:18 Acts 3:24-26

            Abraham will surely become a great and powerful nation, and all nations on earth will be blessed through him.

            Read the verse… This is NOT a prophecy about Jesus, but about Abraham!

            The Messiah would be a descendant of Isaac Genesis 21:12 Luke 3:23-34

            That’s quite redundant, you already mentioned that one….
            The Messiah would be as a sacrificial lamb Genesis 22:8 John 1:29

            I thought it was a goat in the tree?

            The Messiah would be sacrificed upon the same mountain where God tested Abraham Genesis 22:14 Luke 23:33

            Jesus was crucified where again? Gol GO Tha. 2 events happening at the same place does not make it a prophecy. If he would have died at Bethel, then you would have mentioned the stone of Jacob…

            The Messiah would bless all nations Genesis 22:18 Galatians 3:14

            Abaham, not Jesus

            The Messiah would be a descendant of Isaac Genesis 26:4 Luke 3:23-34
            The Messiah would be a descendant of Jacob Genesis 28:14 Luke 3:23-34

            You already mentioned that he his to be a Jew…. Now that does not prove it’s Jesus!

            The Messiah would come for all people Genesis 28:14 Galatians 3:26-29

            Your descendants will be like the dust of the earth, and you will spread out to the west and to the east, to the north and to the south. All peoples on earth will be blessed through you and your offspring.

            This talks about Jesuss, blessed be my savior!

            The Messiah would be a descendant of Judah Genesis 49:10 Luke 3:23-33

            We all agree… Let’s move on

            The Messiah would be King of Israel Genesis 49:10 John 1:49

            Jesus was NOT a king!

            The Messiah’s authority shall extend to all nations Genesis 49:10 Jude 1:25

            Again, never he was a king, nor did he have authority!

            The Messiah would be the “vine” Genesis 49:11 John 15:1-5

            He will tether his donkey to a vine,
            his colt to the choicest branch;
            he will wash his garments in wine,
            his robes in the blood of grapes.

            Jesus, I see you there!

            Exodus
            None of the Messiah’s bones would be broken Exodus 12:46 John 19:32-33

            Seriously! Most people don’t have bone broken when they die, this is not a prophecy!

            The Messiah would be slaughtered as the Passover lamb. Exodus 12:21-22 Revelation 5:12

            This is pure non-sense, this video is funny!
            http://www.truth2u.org/2014/04/11/jono-jason-passover-lamb-or-passover-man/

            Numbers
            None of the Messiah’s bones would be broken Numbers 9:12 John 19:32-33

            Again!

            The Messiah would be King of Israel Numbers 24:17 John 19:19

            Jesus was not a KING~!

            Deuteronomy
            The Messiah would be a Prophet Deuteronomy 18:15 Matthew 21:11

            This does not speak of the messiah!

            I am bored now!!!

          • Dina says:

            RT, hilarious!

        • LarryB says:

          KAVI
          BTW, yes I’m half polish. Also, previously you made statements and I asked you a question that you have not answered. Now your Making statements again and asking me questions. I hesitate to answer you without you answering me. Besides Eleazar already has.
          Eleazar says:
          March 3, 2017 at 1:15 am

      • Dina says:

        Kavi, there’s no point in discussing when you twist Scripture to suit your purpose. I don’t mean you personally. The Christian Old Testament is read so differently by Christians that it has become a completely different book from the Hebrew Bible.

        I won’t go toe to toe with you on every point here. I don’t have the time.

        Just wondering, though. Do you know why Jews don’t believe in Jesus, from the Jewish perspective? Can you articulate the Jewish position in your own words?

        • KAVI says:

          Dina,
          Based on past blog history, when I came back from work today, I pretty much already knew that there would be no one [not just you] who would respond to the direct teaching of Tanakh.

          ___________________

          As to your question,

          Dina Q: “Just wondering, though. Do you know why Jews don’t believe in Jesus, from the Jewish perspective?”

          Kavi – A#1: Actually, Jews DO believe in Jesus for redemption– just view their many testimonies on Youtube

          Kavi – A#2: Nevertheless, the greater testimony according to the prophecy of Tanakh says– Most Jews will NOT believe into the L-RD Redeemer, only a remnant will be saved. . .
          ____________________

          My turn to ask a question,
          Q: The L-RD says to circumcise the foreskin of your heart today– how have you done so?
          [Deuteronomy 10, Jeremiah 4, etc]
          ___________________

          • KAVI The word “direct” means obvious and unquestionable, it means “with the intention to address.” Your “prophecies” are nothing of the sort. And you did NOT answer Dina’s question. 1000 Verses – a project of Judaism Resources wrote: >

          • Dina says:

            Kavi, we have multiple conversations on various threads. I realize I have not responded to all of them. Please know that I have not been ignoring you. Time is limited and it’s difficult to maintain several discussions at once.

            Therefore, I cannot address all your false statements, such as the following direct quote: “I advocate nothing– It is Moses and the Prophets who advocate belief in the visible L-RD as the Chosen Holy Redeemer of promise.” Moses and the Prophets did not advocate belief in the visible Lord but quite the opposite, as attested by Moses’ stern warnings to the Jewish people to remember that they saw no image on Mount Sinai but only heard a voice and that they must therefore not associate God with any form whatsoever, including male and female (see Deuteronomy 4).

            Instead, I would like to focus on one point for the time being.

            Do you agree with the following statement, yes or no?

            The overwhelming majority of Jews throughout history and down to the present day have rejected Jesus as a false messiah and a false prophet.

            Just a simple yes or no should suffice. Thanks!

          • KAVI says:

            Dina,
            Yes, you are a very busy wife and mother of younger children at home– I am someone much older and getting older. . . time is meaningfully limited for both of us.

            Yet despite the lack of time, I find interfaith dialogue necessarily valuable– even Rabbi Tovia Singer sincerely misses his “christian” sounding board, Nathaniel Nash [former New York Times bureau chief, deceased 1996].
            _____________________

            The statement that “G-d has no form” exists nowhere in Torah– the doctrine “G-d has no form” does not exist either– both the statement and the doctrine are just Orthodox eisegeses.

            Rather, Torah plainly says mankind is made in his image; and Moses saw the L-RD’s back and not His Face [Genesis 1; Exodus 33].

            G-d vividly portrays His Form in extraordinary human-like terms in a vision to Ezekiel. . .
            “Now above the expanse that was over their heads there was something resembling a throne, like lapis lazuli in appearance; and on that which resembled a throne, high up, was a figure with the appearance of a man. Then I noticed from the appearance of His loins and upward something like glowing metal that looked like fire all around within it, and from the appearance of His loins and downward I saw something like fire; and there was a radiance around Him. As the appearance of the rainbow in the clouds on a rainy day, so was the appearance of the surrounding radiance. Such was the appearance of the likeness of the glory of the L-RD. And when I saw it, I fell on my face and heard a voice speaking. . .” [Ezekiel 1]

            Logically, if G-d was so terribly concerned about hiding His Form, then Ezekiel should never have had this vision– instead, G-d goes WAY out of His way to show everyone He does indeed have Form.

            ____________________

            So, let’s address another issue–
            Dina: “. . . they [Israel] must therefore not associate God with any form whatsoever, including male and female.”

            Again, I need to say that this statement is another Orthodox doctrinal eisegesis of the text.

            In Chava’s dialogue with satan, we find a similar “conceptual addition” to G-d’s Word.
            “. . .but from the fruit of the tree which is in the middle of the garden, G-d has said, ‘You shall not eat from it or touch it, or you will die.” [Genesis 3]

            Instead, Torah simply says,
            “So watch yourselves carefully, since you did not see any form on the day the L-RD spoke to you at Horeb from the midst of the fire, so that you do not act corruptly and make a graven image for yourselves in the form of any figure. . .” [Deuteronomy 4]

            Nothing in this text prohibits the visible L-RD that Moses spoke with as a friend from coming into this world to tabernacle in flesh– doing so was mandatory to redeem mankind [Genesis 3]

            And when this visible L-RD returns from Heaven and descends to stand upon the mount of olives, everyone will see Mashiach Yeshua with His anointed ones. [Zechariah 14]

            __________________________

            Enough! Let’s answer your question!

            Dina: “The overwhelming majority of Jews throughout history and down to the present day have rejected Jesus as a false messiah and a false prophet. Just a simple yes or no should suffice. Thanks!”

            Kavi: Yes
            _______________________

          • Dina says:

            Kavi, your interpretation of Scripture is wrong. We are not allowed to worship a physical form of God. Why would God go out of His way to warn us “You shall have no other gods before me” “There is no savior beside me” “I will not give my glory to another” “You have been shown in order to know that the Lord He is the God, beside Him there is no other?” and then trick us by contradicting Himself and sending another to be worshiped?

            Thank you for answering my question. I will now follow up with another: can you articulate why, from a Jewish perspective, all these overwhelming numbers of Jews have rejected Jesus?

          • CP says:

            KAVI,
            What is weird, is not only do people such as Dina reject Yeshua as the first advent of Messiah, they just outright flat reject him period; a man who came to the Temple being run by a Jewish mafia of corrupt leaders sold out to Rome to make bank off their fellow Jews and called them out on it – you’d think he would be a Jewish hero standing up for the little guy.
            This kind of thing stems from people being taught to believe what they are told to believe rather than thinking for themselves.

          • Dina says:

            Hey, does anyone know the fate of Jews who accept Jesus? I mean, look at all the Jews throughout history who accepted Jesus. What happened to them?

            You know what’s weird, folks? That Christians have been trying to convert us for 2000 years and they still don’t know why we reject Jesus. I guess that’s what happens when you are taught what to believe instead of thinking for yourselves.

            They even believe the ahistorical accounts of Jesus’s trial and crucifixion, placing the blame squarely on the Jewish people for his death. I guess that’s what happens when you are taught what to believe instead of thinking for yourselves.

            But you know what’s really weird, folks? That Christians think it’s weird for us to reject someone who not only taught avodah zarah, but in whose name literally millions of Jews were killed and millions more oppressed in unspeakable ways for nearly 2000 years.

            Now that’s what I call weird.

          • CP says:

            Dina – “Christians think it’s weird for us to reject someone who not only taught avodah zarah”

            I’m fairly familiar with the NT and I cannot think of even one time Yeshua advocates the worship of himself as God, not even one. So perhaps you could help me out here and post where Yeshua taught avodah zarah.

          • KAVI says:

            Dina,
            You write,

            Dina: “We are not allowed to worship a physical form of God.”
            Kavi: I agree– neither am I allowed to do so. . .
            ________________

            Dina: “Why would God go out of His way to warn us;
            > “You shall have no other gods before me”
            > “There is no savior beside me”
            > “I will not give my glory to another”
            > “You have been shown in order to know that the Lord He is the God, beside Him there is no other?”
            . . . and then trick us by contradicting Himself and sending another to be worshiped?

            Kavi:
            First– I agree completely will all the Scriptures quoted.

            Second– “But How?”
            I suppose I could come up with a number of examples, but let’s look at one.

            When the visible L-RD Moses wrote about brought Chava to Adam, Adam immediately recognized this female and he were “echad” for,
            “The man said, “This is now bone of my bones, And flesh of my flesh; She shall be called Woman, Because she was taken out of Man.” [Genesis 2]

            In Heaven, the L-RD sits at the right hand of the L-RD because they are Eternally Echad.

            An Echad L-RD is not “another” [Deuteronomy 6:4 and Exodus 34]

            ________________

          • Dina says:

            Kavi, for the third time: can you articulate why, from a Jewish perspective, the overwhelming majority of Jews rejected Jesus throughout the centuries?

          • KAVI says:

            Dina,
            You ask,
            Q: “I will now follow up with another: can you articulate why, from a Jewish perspective, all these overwhelming numbers of Jews have rejected Jesus?”

            A: First, I have yet to find a uniform “Jewish perspective”. . .
            — Modern Orthodox?
            — Reform?
            — Conservative?
            — Reconstructionist?
            — Hasidic?
            — Haredi?
            — Messianic?
            — Karaite?
            — Agnostic?
            — Atheist?
            — JuBu?
            — . . .?

            However, I think I can give a broad perspective that covers all peoples of the earth,
            All people sin yet, like our parents Adam/Chava, we opt for fig leaves to cover our sin instead of seeking out the freely offered righteousness of G-d through His Anointed Messiah. [Genesis 3]

            By analogy,
            >> Unless a person realizes they are “sick” [with sin], why seek out a physician?
            >> And of those who know they are “sick” and honestly seek a physician, do they decide to keep going to the “wrong” one?
            >> And should they find the “right” physician? The L-RD Yeshua will certainly not cast them away, but “heal” them from their sin.

            ____________________

          • Dina says:

            Kavi, I asked you if you can articulate why Jews have rejected Jesus throughout the ages from a Jewish perspective.

            You don’t need to search out the perspectives of different groups, since all are agreed on this.

            Do you know why Jews reject Jesus, let us say from a traditional Jewish perspective?

          • KAVI says:

            Dina,
            You asked, “Do you know why Jews reject Jesus, let us say from a traditional Jewish perspective?”

            Kavi: Traditional Jews, from my perspective, can reject the L-RD Yeshua as HaMashiach based on the strong “interconnectedness” of matters such as,
            — Rabbinic hermeneutic of Tanakh and Oral Torah
            — Halakha
            — “Jewish” personal identity
            — National identity as a people
            — Family values
            — Shared history/tradition/culture

            _____________________

          • Dina says:

            Kavi, as you know, I pressed you repeatedly to articulate from a Jewish perspective the reason that Jews reject Jesus.

            It was hard to get you to answer, but you finally did. Thank you for that. Your answer is illuminating. It shows that after 2000 years of trying to convert Jews, Christians still don’t understand us. For 2000 years, instead of listening to us to even just try to hear us out with a heart open to understanding with compassion, you (collectively) have been preaching at us with closed ears and a closed heart.

            How disheartening.

            We must wait until Mashiach comes for the darkness to be lifted from the eyes of the nations and for Israel to finally be vindicated, as the prophets promised, and may he come speedily in our days!

      • Dina says:

        Christians read the Hebrew Bible in such a one-sided way, one wonders how they miss their own bias. They focus on the prophets’ denunciations, ignoring the promises of God’s eternal love, the eternal nature of our covenant with Him, and His promises of forgiveness and redemption.

        • Eleazar says:

          >>>>Christians read the Hebrew Bible in such a one-sided way, one wonders how they miss their own bias.>>>>

          They don’t miss it, Dina. They embrace it. Their bias has a name, its called “the Holy Ghost”. Christians are convinced that a big reason for the existence of the holy spirit is to enable one to see Jesus and Christianity in every word of the “Old Testament”.

          P.S.- I am speaking of the overwhelming majority of Evangelicals I know personally, and this statement is not intended to say that ALL Christians of ALL sects ALWAYS do this.

          • Dina says:

            Eleazar, there is another name for it: Jew hatred.

            The story of Balaam is the lesson God teaches the Gentiles on how Gentiles ought to view the people of Israel, sandwiched as it is between unflattering stories of the Jewish people.

            The only people who have the right to criticize God’s people are His appointed prophets, who did so not to denounce the Jewish people but to bring them back to repentance. They also offered encouragement with promises of God’s eternal love and forgiveness and promises of vengeance for those who hurt God’s firstborn.

            I suggest that those who comb through the Bible seeking weapons to cudgel the Jewish people into the type of worship the prophets denounced should bear this in mind.

  4. CP says:

    Alan, thanks for posting the clip!
    Boteach said something very interesting; ‘Jesus is the Christian Messiah’. Perhaps meaning a Jewish Messiah to the nations? Or to bring the Diaspora back? Idk, but after considering this position myself, I think I need to read his book.

    • RT says:

      Here you go! Here’s another quote from a Jew who will be take for the rest of time for the truth! He must be the Christian messiah, and what does that mean?

      • Dina says:

        Boteach is not a legit rabbi. He’s an embarrassment to Chabad who have disowned him, and he doesn’t speak for any Orthodox Jews that I know.

        • LarrtB says:

          It seems people always find what their looking for. Jesus is the messiah, no problem. Jesus is all through the the Torah, no problem. Jesus is the word, and created everything, no problem. Believe in Jesus get to heaven, no problem. Believe in Jesus receive the gift of the Holy Spirit, no problem. The only time there is a problem is when the teaching disagrees, no problem ignore the teaching.

          • CP says:

            LarryB, you almost had it! If you don’t mind I will post a corrected version:

            It seems people always find what their looking for. Jesus is the messiah, no problem. Jesus is all through the the Torah, no problem. Jesus is the word, and created everything, no problem. Believe in Jesus get to heaven, no problem. Believe in Jesus receive the gift of the Holy Spirit, no problem. The only time there is a problem is when the teaching disagrees, no problem… It will agree in the second coming.

          • LarrtB says:

            CP
            I can’t believe you fell for that lol.

          • CP says:

            LarryB, I fall for it on a whole different level; for I realize many a Christian, Jew, Muslim, Atheist and even the Ancient Alien buff go to the Text in search of justification for their beliefs. Guess what – they all find what they are looking for.

            Where the rub comes in is where they insist they are the only ones to see the real truth and everyone else is wrong.

          • CP The Jews don’t need the text throw it out and we still have testimony 1000 Verses – a project of Judaism Resources wrote: >

          • LarryB says:

            CP
            Why not list the Torah scripture that shows why you believe Jesus is the messiah?

          • RT says:

            CP, I agree, but how can we not fall into the same trap? How can you be so sure a text mean what it says? You need first to read the whole book and see the context. The best example is the “alma”, it does not matter what the word is, the context does not fit Jesus. Another example is “Who made those wounds in your hands and feet”. Still today, many Christians read the text and try to convince themselves it’s about Jesus. Another example is that they use “us” to prove the trinity, when it proves nothing at all.. Is those proofs sufficient? Can you read Isaiah 53 in context of the rest of Isaiah and still say that it fits Jesus? Why did Isaiah wrote “For you shall expand to the right and to the left,
            And your descendants will inherit the nations, And make the desolate cities inhabited” just after Isaiah 53? Does that fit? Did the Jews inherit the nations right after Jesus death. Should we expect 3000 years between Isaiah 53 and 54? Should we expect 3000 years between Jesus being pierced and the Jews looking at him in amazement and morning for him? Should we expect a real person coming on the clouds of heaven? Should we expect the Ruler of Israel coming from Bethlehem, but never ruling in his lifetime? Should we expect “Kiss the son” when that is the only Aramaic word in the book of Psalm? If you add up all your “Truths”, do they equals to 100% proofs that Jesus is the messiah, or 0% proofs, but you have to believe by faith; and if not, you’ll finish in hell?

            Are you bias, because you did accept Yeshua as messiah so long ago, and your ego does not allow you to rethink, because all humans want to be right? I remember preaching at my Kehilah and felt embarrassed to say that I did not believe in Yeshua anymore. I said “I have doubts” for a few weeks, before my wife realized that it was more than that, when I was actually questioning the “proof” text. “But you have to believe, that’s all it matter” she said…

            And I read some more of the new testament, and it confirmed, “You must Believe”, “Don’t ask questions, just believe”, “Don’t be a Pharisee”, etc…

          • Dina says:

            RT, the math is pretty simple, and I’m not even good at math! But I do know that 300 times zero equals zero.

            A good place to start is with the plain meaning of the text. Since anyone can make anything mean what they want, how about sticking to the plain meaning, read within its context?

            If Christians did that, that would be the end of Christianity.

            Once Christians realize that the Hebrew Bible thoroughly repudiates Christianity, then and only then can they fairly question our interpretation and the Oral Torah.

        • RT says:

          As long as you are a Jew and said something that could be interpreted positively for Yeshua, that’s all you need. That’s what they do with the Talmud, Dead sea scrolls, Rabbi, and Jewish writing… I really does not matter if that’s what the person meant or not. I will be used to “Prove” Jesus…

    • Alan says:

      CP, you are mistakenly taking his (strange and inappropriate) words out of context. He also says that he (Boteach) is the messiah to his kids. He explains his strange words here –

      Start at 11:33 –

      Sid Roth: “So in your opinion then there are 2 messiahs, one messiah for Gentiles and another messiah for the Jews? Is that what you’re saying.

      Shmuley Boteach: “No I think there is one universal messiah. By the way I happen to believe strongly that all of us have a messianic dimension. There’s a spark of the messiah in each and every one of us.

      SR: “I’m confused then. Because you’re saying there’s one for the Gentiles and one for the Jews. It’s not making sense.”

      SB: “Very good question. The messiah is redemption. To my kids I’m the messiah. They wait for me to come home to redeem their existence, give them love, make them feel worthy. But then there’s a global messiah who will do what the rest of humanity cannot do and has yet to do.”

      SR: “So the Christian messiah is not this global messiah?”

      SB: “Of course not.”

      SR: “He’s not.”

      SB: “The global messiah is the one that will redeem the world all at once. We all need redemption from death, we all need redemption from suffering and we all need redemption from disease. That has yet to happen. The world is deeply unredeemed.”

      SR: “Shmuley I don’t get it. I don’t get it. You’re telling me the Gentiles have a messiah and he has redeemed them or he hasn’t?”

      SB: “No, I’m saying that Jesus played in the lives of hundreds of millions of pagans a redemptive role in having brought the knowledge of G-d to so many of them just as Mohammed did for a billion Muslims. Remember the Muslims were also pagans before
      Mohammed. They’re monotheists today. In many respects one might say that Islam is more monotheistic than Christianity because it does not accept that a man was God. Because classic paganism was that a man is God. And monotheism is that a man cannot be God. And in that respect Mohammed played a redemptive role to at least a billion people.”

  5. Eleazar says:

    SB- “No, I’m saying that Jesus played in the lives of hundreds of millions of pagans a redemptive role in having brought the knowledge of G-d to so many of them”

    SB- later in same breath- “Because classic paganism was that a man is God. ”

    Well? This goes back to RT’s point that Christianity teaches “an Old [obsolete] Testament and a three-headed god” and some call it “taking Torah to the world”. Rav Boteach says Christianity has “brought the knowledge of God to hundreds of millions of pagans”, yet in the same breath admits that the “god” they have brought is that of classic paganism- a man as god. Forgive me for criticizing a well-studied and famous rabbi, but it seems maybe Rav Boteach should realize that he cannot please everyone and still have a consistent position.

    • Dina says:

      He doesn’t deserve the honor of being “Rav.” Famous he certainly is, well-studied, not so much.

      He’s a walking, talking chilul Hashem.

      • Alan says:

        My intent was not to discuss Shmuley Boteach, it was only to quote Michael Brown’s “God will destroy the Jews [for not believing in Jesus]”. Michael Brown’s pleasant exterior disguises what’s inside him, namely his lack of love for the eternal Am Hashem (People of God, i.e. the Jewish people). The G-d of the Tenach might get very angry with His eternal nation, but His love always overpowers His anger. The god of the Christian bible is just the opposite – the House of Israel and the House of Yehuda are no longer eternal, they are no longer indispensable to His master plan, therefore the Christian god’s anger towards them overpowers His love for them. In the Tenach, a person’s evil deeds towards his fellow are much worse than one’s mistaken theological beliefs. The Christian bible is just the opposite – one’s mistaken theological beliefs are much worse than one’s evil deeds towards one’s fellow man.

        • Dina says:

          Yes, and furthermore, Jews look forward to a time when all of mankind will unite in service to the one Creator of all. Christians look forward to a time when Jesus will come on the clouds, sweep up all his believers, leaving the remaining billions to die. While Jews look forward to our vindication in the eyes of the nations, Christians look forward to Israel’s shame.

          • Dina says:

            CP has said something similar by the way, and with barely restrained glee:

            “Yeshua came calling for repentance, the religious leaders apparently for what ever reason rejected the call and were destroyed. This will happen again on a wold wide scale when Messiah comes; people will repent and submit or be destroyed.”

            Interesting that Christians say the God of Israel is full of wrath and vengeance; they need to take out the beams out of their eyes.

          • Alan says:

            CP: ““Yeshua came calling for repentance, the religious leaders apparently for what ever reason rejected the call and were destroyed.”

            Can CP name the only Jewish community from Jesus’s time that is still around today without a generation being skipped? The Ebionites? The Nazarenes?

          • Concerned Reader says:

            But then there’s a global messiah WHO WILL DO WHAT THE REST OF HUMANITY …..CANNOT…….. and has yet to do.”

            SR: “So the Christian messiah is not this global messiah?”

            SB: “Of course not.”

            SR: “He’s not.”

            SB: “The global messiah is THE ONE THAT WILL REDEEM THE WORLD ALL AT ONCE. WE ALL NEED REDEMPTION FROM DEATH, we all need redemption from SUFFERING and we all need redemption from DISEASE.

            This is one of my biggest issues with the entire Jewish Christian sectarian squabble. Various rabbis say things that give Christians, not just ammo, but a serious rationale for why the messiah is a freaking superman.

            When you look in the midrashim, in second temple literature, in Philo, and in the thoughts of various rabbis over history, (as well as the history of various failed messianic movements after Jesus,) you get a picture of a messiah that is not just political, (AS THE TANAKH SAYS PLAINLY,) but is this mystical mumbo jumbo messiah responsible for super human feats WITH SUPER HUMAN NAMES THAT IT IS BELIEVED THE REST OF US CANNOT DO OR INVOKE OURSELVES.

            Some of the characteristics of the messiah in these midrashic traditions, and in popular Judaism are,

            1. He will be called “the lord our righteousness,” as will Jerusalem be called by G-d’s name. (because he brings the Shekinah via the Temple.)

            2. He will be a unique agent of G-d who has prophecy on or near level of Moses, (the sources disagree) and terrestrial power that is hitherto unprecedented. IE HE WILL BE G-D’s SOCK PUPPET AS WERE THE OTHER AGENTS IN THE TORAH, IE Genesis 31:13 Judges 6, etc.

            3. He will render judgements about men’s inclinations via his sense of smell, IE he will intuit who is just and unjust merely by an interaction with them.

            4. He will lead the world in curing all illness, raising the dead, and ending war. (SOMETHING NOT EVEN MOSES COULD DO, NOT EVEN ADAM WHO WAS MADE BY G-D’S OWN HANDS (AND DESCRIBED BY JEWISH LITERATURE AS ANGELIC) COULD DO. NOT EVEN DAVID DID IT IN ONE LIFETIME!

            The reasons the Christians (and other groups like Chabad) treat the messiah as some kind of divine superman hybrid is NOT DUE TO PAGANS, its because that is how various folk traditions have described the messianic redeemer, and the redemption he brings about. MAIMONIDES HAD TO COMBAT THIS IN HIS EPISTLE TO YEMEN.

            IF THESE SOURCES DO NOT STATE OUTRIGHT THAT MESSIAH IS G-D, THEY POSIT THAT THIS MAN WILL ACCOMPLISH ONLY WHAT G-D HIMSELF COULD.

            When I’ve read Maimonides being at pains to show how the resurrection of the dead is rational, he has to take sources that speak of eternal life in physical bodies, and say that resurrection is temporary, but OLAM HABA (existence as a soul,) will be eternal, its hard to read.

            If you read the sources, its very clear that many Jews have believed many things that they no longer believe. The reasons the Christians have support for their views (and seem so damn confused all the time when confronted with the rational view,) is because you have the TANAKH describing the messiah as a mortal monarch who brings Israel back to Moses’ Torah, full stop. YOU THEN HAVE MOUNTAINS OF POETRY AND “ORAL TORAH’ that describe the man as a giant higher than angels.

            Can you guys imagine how confusing that must be?

          • Dina says:

            Con, can you explain to me, please, why I was never confused by this, and why mainstream Orthodox Jews are not and have never been confused by this? (By never I mean the strain of Orthodox Judaism that survives into each succeeding generation.)

            Can you explain to me why most Orthodox Jews would have no idea what you’re talking about, because they don’t obsess about who the Messiah is and what he will be capable of doing?

  6. Dina says:

    There is one little point you seem to keep missing, Con:

    This confusion always begins with a charismatic leader.

    Christians and sectarian Jews didn’t read these passages and then find a leader to fit the bill. That has never happened.

  7. Conxerned Reader says:

    I agree there is a charismatic leader at the start, I would even say (in broader Judaism’s context) its leaders, over a single leader.

    Once a law is decided, would you question your own leaders or question a ruling they give? Do you read the Torah on your own understanding, or in line with the tradition of Tzaddikim?

    That is where I believe there is a slight presumption in your question that you dont in fact inadvertently do the same things, but with leaders instead of one leader.

    You say that most Jews would not fall for a charismatic leader, or make him central to your religion.

    I would say that you dont need to focus on just one rebbe because you have many generations of many charismatic leaders that you would not question on their consensus just as a chabadnik or a Christian would not question his leader.’s opinion. It becomes a problem what these groups do, not in concept, but in how they differ from consensus.

    What happens with Chabad messianism, Sabbateanism, and Christianity is that the faith which most Jews would have in all the sages more generally becomes focussed to a deeper degree on a single individual, instead of group consensus.

    Simillar authority structure, attribution of miracles and inspired intellect, and the dynamic vis an adherent are simmilar, but a different number of agents are involved in broader Judaism. Let me explain what I mean.

    For instance, if you believe the sages had advanced knowledge into nature in deciding a law so that later generations are viewed as lesser, isnt that putting faith in sages as somehow being “special?”

    I hear rabbis all the time who say

    “Christians invent a secind coming.”

    I would submit however that all Jews already accept a secind coming of sorts in concept, just not of Moshiach, rather of Elijah. Its a concept ok within collective consensus, but Avodah Zarah if its applied by other Jews to a messiah claimant.

    The reason you dont see Jews generally asking the same questions as Christians is because in broader Judaism, the ocean has not yet become the drop, so the concepts are not problematic.

    IE its ok in Judaism to believe the sages may have done supernatural feats. Its ok to believe Enoch and Elijah were taken up, and one of them will return, its ok to believe the death of any righteous group or a patriarch atones, its ok if the sages speak G-d’s words, and tell us G-d’s opinion, its ok if Am Israel, Hashem, and Torah are one, but if someone applies these general concepts to a specific person in a way that differs with consensus, then its wrong and foreign.

    • Dina says:

      Conxie,

      Some of your assumptions are incorrect, so I list them below (what’s with that x that keeps appearing in your name)?:

      1. We accept the rulings of sages and rabbis because of their charisma.

      This is not the case. We accept the rulings of those who have proven themselves to be expert in the law. We don’t focus on any one leader or leaders because we focus on Hashem. This is not to say that we don’t look up to leaders who have proven themselves to be not only expert but also wise, much the same way people look up to and respect and value the opinion of an experienced psychologist, an renowned neurosurgeon, etc.

      The Torah commands us not to veer to the right or left of the rulings of our sages, so we do that because the Torah commanded it; not because of our adulation of the rabbis.

      2. Belief in a second coming is avodah zarah.

      No, it is not. One can believe that the messiah will die and be resurrected to finish the job if one wishes to believe so. It would be a weird thing to believe, but Judaism tolerates a lot of weird beliefs. This does not contradict any fundamental principles of our faith.

      The problem with the Christian concept is that they pulled it out of thin air, not the Bible, to explain Jesus’s failure, then expect us to buy it. Not happening. You can’t use such a belief as a basis for your theology.

      3. It’s a problem to believe that an unapproved individual performs miracles.

      This assumption is also incorrect. It’s fine to believe that anyone you please can perform supernatural feats. It doesn’t contradict fundamental principles of the Torah. You might be considered a little weird, but Judaism tolerates weird. The problem Jews have with Jesus is not that he was said to perform miracles.

      4. It’s only okay to believe the death of the righteous atones if it’s an approved individual.

      Your understanding of the Jewish concept of the atoning power of the death of the righteous is also incorrect. Jews believe that the death of any righteous individual–and you can believe that it’s whoever you want to, no problem–has a limited atoning power that is effective only for that generation; furthermore, it is only a small measure of atonement. The most important and effective way to achieve full atonement is repentance. And–this is most crucial–the death of the righteous is not needed for atonement.

      I set you straight off the top of my head because Orthodox Jewish schoolchildren know this; these ideas would never have occurred to them.

      Because your assumptions prove to be incorrect, your whole argument is rendered moot. In light of that, may I trouble you to reread my comment and see if you think of this differently now?

  8. Jim says:

    Why Christians are Confused by Midrash

    A commenter here wrote that Jewish midrashim make the Messiah out to be superhuman, and that it is from these midrashim and other sources that Christians come to the conclusion that the Messiah will be more than a man. He concludes that these are not then pagan ideas, but Jewish. The writer, however, has badly misunderstood the facts and to some degree misrepresented them. After all, virtually no Christian comes to belief in Jesus, because he read the midrashim and saw that Jesus conformed to the understanding of the Messiah to be found therein. Indeed, few Christians know Jewish midrashim, and those that study them do so with the eye of an apologist, reading them with an eye for finding Jesus in them. They look to justify their faith, not to define it. Because of this, it is evident that Christians are not confused about the role of the Messiah because of the midrashim. Rather, they are confused about the midrashim because of their misunderstanding of the role of the Messiah.

    One way it is evident that Christians do not suffer this confusion is that Jesus does not have the superhuman qualities found in the midrashim. The commenter notes that the Messiah is supposed to bring on the resurrection of the dead and other amazing events that no mere human could do. But Jesus did not do any of them. The Christian asserts that Jesus will do some of these things in the future, but just like the prophecies in Tanach that are to be fulfilled by the Messiah, Jesus has not done any of them as yet. This is indeed why the Christian has to invent prophecies that Jesus is supposed to have fulfilled, by ignoring context and misrepresenting passages in Tanach. Just as Jesus did not fulfill and of the prophecies in Tanach regarding the Messiah, he does not meet the definitions of the midrashim. These cannot be the source of the confusion.

    It is the Christian’s prejudice that leads to his confusion: he comes to the Jewish sources with an eye looking for Jesus. This is no different with the words of the rabbis than it is with Tanach. If something can be made to sound like Jesus, the Christian will assume that it is speaking about Jesus. At the least it can be considered a hint, a type, or a shadow, something that points to Jesus. When he reads Tanach, he is little interested in those passages that cannot be related to Jesus, and it is no different when he reads the words of the rabbis. Two examples of this follow, both from discussions on this blog.

    In the first example, a Christian wished to prove that the concept of two comings is part of Jewish tradition. As one of his proofs, he cited an article by Rabbi Immanuel Shochet wherein Rabbi Shochet wrote about two messiahs, Messiah ben Joseph and Messiah ben David. Rabbi Shochet’s article clearly defined two different individuals. However, the commenter conflated the two messianic concepts to make them compatible with two comings of the Messiah. Moreover, he ignored that Rabbi Shochet’s article defined Messiah ben Joseph in no way compatible with Jesus, even though the commenter wished to make Jesus’ first coming out to be Messiah ben Joseph. Because he only cared to find a notion of two, he disregarded all the details. Any confusion comes from him reading the text with his own agenda in mind and wishing only to use the text to prove his theories correct.

    In the second example, a commenter argued that from Rashi’s commentary on Psalm 22:16 a Christian would have some justification for understanding the text to be about Jesus. He argued that even if the verse did not say “they pierced my hands and feet,” because Rashi wrote that a lion crushed the hands and feet of the figure in the psalm, the Christian could still relate this to Jesus. The first objection is obvious. Christians do not believe that Psalm 22:16 speaks of Jesus because of Rashi. Indeed, a great many Christians do not know who Rashi is and most have not read his commentary. The employment of Rashi is something Christians do—those very few that do—after they realize that the verse does not refer to a person having his hands and feet pierced. They use him as a justification of their belief that it is about Jesus. It is for them a back up explanation: “If the verse does not say pierced, that is okay, because Rashi writes that the figure in Psalm 22:16 has had his hands and feet crushed. That still sounds like Jesus.” They seize upon Rashi to justify their prior belief; he is not a foundation for their belief.

    More importantly, the commenter did not give the context of Rashi. Because of this, he did not discover Rashi’s meaning, and though this commenter is not himself Christian, he makes the same mistake a Christian makes. Rashi writes that the figure of Psalm 22 is the nation of Israel. Therefore, when the hands and feet of the figure are being crushed, it is a metaphor. No hands or feet are being crushed, by nails during crucifixion or in any other way. The commenter should have been asking the question: “If this refers to the nation, what does Rashi mean by saying that the hands and feet of the nation are being pierced?” But he does not ask the question, because he only sees the means of justifying Christian belief and stops short of trying to understand the passage in Rashi.

    It is obvious that the confusion of the reader does not originate in Rashi. The confusion originates in the mind of the reader. He begins with his preconceptions and ends with them. When he finds something that sounds vaguely like Jesus, he is satisfied to end the reading there. Doing so, he denies himself an understanding of Rashi’s teaching.

    And this is the problem for the Christian generally when reading midrashim and other Jewish sources. He begins with bad definitions. He does not understand the context of the writings. He assumes that he knows what the rabbis mean when he reads their works, but he often does not. His confidence is misplaced. Quite frequently, he is only reading those passages that relate to Christian issues—or that he believes relates to them. So he does not have the scope of the work in mind. He does not understand the underlying philosophy of the works he reads, because he neglects large portions of the work. When he does read them, he scans them.

    His emphasis on the Messiah is misplaced and it distorts his reading. The Messiah is not the focus of Judaism. He is hardly mentioned in Tanach, yet the Christian studies Tanach assiduously for references to the Messiah, manufacturing them where they cannot be found. He reads misrashim the same way, hoping for some insight about the Messiah as if that were the entire topic of Torah. It is not. The confusion originates in the Christian mind, as he reads Tanach, midrashim, and other Jewish sources with a focus not found in those works. It is a lopsided reading that begins and ends in Christian confusion.

    This can be seen in the way a certain commenter relates to his fellow Christians. A few days ago, a certain Christian who does not believe that Jesus is divine wrote to a Christian that does believe Jesus is divine that this issue does not separate them. If I recall correctly, he said that Jesus’ divinity was not a salvific issue. As long as they both believed Jesus is the Messiah, they would both experience the saving power of Jesus. This commenter minimizes idolatry, believing it worse to deny Jesus than it is to worship a human being as a god. This means that Jesus is the focus of his religion; HaShem is secondary.

    And one sees this in his approach to scripture and rabbinic sources. When he reads scripture, he finds it speaking about Jesus in hidden ways all over the place. He calls his interpretations and those of the Church, “midrashim,” but the only rule his so-called midrashim follow is that they must point to Jesus. When he reads the words of the rabbis, he reads them from Christian sources. The portions he reads are those that Christians have already made to be about Jesus. He is not interested in the other portions of the Talmud. It is as if the vast majority of that work does not exist. He reads it only with his agenda in mind: to find Jesus, to justify his beliefs. Even though the sources are misquoted, he continues to visit these sites, still trusting them to support his faith. The source of his confusion is that his agenda guides his reading.

    When one blames the Jewish sources, then, one misses the point. It is not the fault of the Jewish sources that confusion exists in the mind of the Christian. The Christian’s ignorance is to blame. The Christian’s prejudice is to blame. The Christians propensity to misrepresent the words of the rabbis, just as they do with Tanach, is to blame. It would be best for the Christian if he would leave midrashim alone. He will only confuse himself.

    Jim

  9. Conxerned Reader says:

    JIM why not address me directly. Why say “a commentator.”

    I dont believe in Jesus. Judaism all by itself practiced among Jews in Chabad, Breslov, Sabbateanism, and Frankism were all able historically to pull together a superman messiah.

    That is not Christian spin on midrash, just your own religious history practiced by Torah observant people. It is a historical fact that Jesus is not unique.

    You and Dina can argue very well that these groups were nuts, that they misunderstood, misapplied, contorted etc. a given midrash, but that misses my point.

    If you have to say that “if these people would only have read the midrash in this or that proper way, they wouldnt misunderstand,” or “if they werent ignorant of x” you illustrate my point.

    If you have general concepts like agency, atoning death, prophetic inspiration to the point that the divine presence speaks from someone’s throat, etc. In Judaism,

    you cannot exactly control how any given people will understand them.

    These heretical theologies HAVE ARISEN INSIDE JUDAISM because Jewish laypeople people “misunderstand” all these secret wisdom riddles that are in these sources. The epistle of Yemen is proof that many Jews “misunderstood” messiah as a wonder worker. Again, nothing to do with Christians.

    You are right, a Christian does not believe in Rashi vis psalm 22, but if he (defending his religion) reads the commentary and it speaks of lions crushing hands and feet in Rashi’s drash, the Christian can feel that his teadition’s understanding is vindicated.

    He is not trying to plug Jesus into your midtash, but its unmistakeable that themes exist that are common.

    • Dina says:

      Con, the fact that this happened only five times in a 3,500-year history means that you are the one missing the point.

      If it were as easy to make this mistake as you claim, this type of confusion should have arisen many, many, many more times.

      • CP says:

        Dina,
        Concerned Reader is right, he has posted “facts” and you counter with speculations.
        Please don’t assume I’m not open to facts from you, I’d love to hear some!

    • CP says:

      Concerned Reader; YES!
      To add my two cents; because of the blanket denial that these interpretations arise from the midst of Judaism, when they obviously can be proven to do so, points to something other than the reason stated.

      Why not just take the position (as you do); although these things come from Judaism you reject Yeshua for other x, y or z reasons?

      This makes me think something’s not right.

    • Jim says:

      Con,

      I did not mean to offend you by only calling you a commentator. I had doubts that you are the Concerned Reader that has posted here for a couple years, because the sometimes misspelled name. I thought someone might be abusing your name, as when someone called himself your friend, but you did not know him. I did not mean any offense.

      Jim

      • Concerned Reader says:

        No offense taken, just wasnt sure why. Just saw the typo in my name. Fixed it.

        Dina, it is very true that Jesus like messianism has only occured 5 times in this long span of history, but its all the more an interesting statistic given the very strong attempts by both religions to seperate and largely disavow any influence from each other.

        Also, remember my comments earlier about revelation 13 warning about Jesus replicas? It shows us that whoever wrote that book knew that contempiraries would make claims simmilar to Jesus’ students claims about him, but about their own claimants.

        I’m not trying to be disrespectful, truly. Its a historical observation to state that various midrashic tales and the literature of Jews from earlier periods put forward a view or views of moshiach as a super person that went well beyond the P’shat. Its not even odd cobsidering how they spoke about Moses, Enoch, Elijah, Jacob, and Adam Ha Rishon. It was enough of an issue (the idea of messiah and miracles) that Rambam had to address it.

        What Boteach said about messiah righting all the cosmic ails (including those inherent in our nature) in 1 lifetime perpetuates the view of messiah as a superman, even when its not the intention.

        • Concerned Reader Let me tell you how those who believe that Rabbi Scnheerson is the Messiah dealt with the midrashim. While he was alive, they argued that it is impossible for him to die – on the basis of midrashim. After he died, they argued – what’s the big deal? – the Messiah could come back from the dead! – all on the basis of midrashim. This happened in recent history – I saw it happening. Is this “being confused” by midrashim? or is this exploiting midrashim to support confusion? Can we blame the midrashim for this? 1000 Verses – a project of Judaism Resources wrote: >

          • Concerned Reader says:

            Rabbi, I want to ask you seriously, do you think Jews have always taken midrashim to be as metaphorical, full of deep non literal truths as Jews do in modern times, or do you follow the evidence that shows us this stuff wasnt always read in such a non literal way?

            The men at Masada who killed themselves believed literally that they would come back in bodies at the end. Literally.

            The historical evidence suggests rational distinction between miracles and nature was not known in ancient times, not at all.

            In the nach itself, it is seen as fully rational and plausible historical truth that a human be swallowed by a big fish and live, rational to believe that a man can ascend to heaven in a fiery chariot, or be “taken” by G-d, a man can even walk through flame unharmed, and the bible treats this as its chronicle of reality, not metaphorical non binding midrashim like we do today.

            These are tales treated as historical realities. These biblical miracles resemble midrashim sure, but many ancient Jews believed them to be literal history once, many still do, hence Christians, hence Chabad.

            Why did Chabadniks believe that the rebbe might not die? Is it because the nach clearly has men who lived to 1000 when the world was more “pure? ”

            Even when the Rebbe passed away, didn’t all of Israel once think Moses was in fact dead (because of the Satan) causing them to see a body, leading them to make the calf as a replacement?

            Its not the fault of midrashim that they say these wildly implausible or naturally impossible things. Midrash is biblical fan fiction.

            It does exactly what scripture does, except that scripture does not say “hey, the miracles are just fan fiction, only follow rational halachot as binding.” The question is not why should we blame midrash, its

            why should we be mad at religious folks who in fact helieve that things the Bible talks about as commonplace are actually possible today?

            In modern times, we have modern sensibilities when readung midrashim, but this is why messianism makes the less rational parts of our minds and hopes come out to play. Thats my point.

            The whole point of messianic eutopia is that you are saying the world goes back to as it was in the scriptures. That means if you take nach seriously, prophets, raising dead, not dying/1000 year lifespans, etc. are possible outcomes.

            Why do you think Christians had an Anti Christ Jesus copycat tradition? They knew the claims of Jesus to fulfill prophecies might be claimed for another person someday. Why? Because in their day “miracles” “prophecies” etc. were seen as still relevant, literal, and claimable.

            I know guys like Rambam were at pains to describe these biblical things rationally, but at a certain pont, we have to realize and acknowkedge that the messianic age talks bible style miracles that are not rational or derived from halacha, but are all part of the same book, and seen as commonplace possibilities.

            You can blame Christians and Chabadniks for distorting scripture all day, all you want, but we cant blame them for considering as possible about their candidate something that is common place in scripture.

            Thats like saying, “believe its true in biblical times, but just not right now today. It will come back at some far off future time, but dont believe in this today.”

            Here is the issue rabbi. They already believe in all this stuff today, hecause these claims are in the Bible.

            Do you think Jews initially thought Moshe would die? Or did they expect G-d’s glowing mouthpiece would live 800 or more years?

          • Concerned Reader The point is not about miracle vs. natural. It is about bias that is as plain as day. The Messiah cannot (in the sense of impossible – we don’t need to pray for the Rebbe’s recovery because it is heretical to think of him dying) die before fulfilling his mission or there is no problem for the Messiah to die before fulfilling his mission. Both of these positions, in one week, the same group. How can we take this seriously? 1000 Verses – a project of Judaism Resources wrote: >

          • Dina says:

            Con,

            You wrote: “The question is not why should we blame midrash, its why should we be mad at religious folks who in fact helieve that things the Bible talks about as commonplace are actually possible today?”

            We’re not mad at anyone. Whatever gave you that idea? 🙂 Seriously, though, like I said, Judaism tolerates all sorts of beliefs. (You know the saying, Christianity is a religion of creed; Judaism is a religion of deed, or something like that.) That’s why, although Jews look askance at Chabad, we do tolerate them, so long as they don’t worship or do anything contrary to Torah. It is not blasphemy or heresy to believe that the person you thought the messiah and who died is coming back to life to actually do the job. It’s just weird. It might give us the heebie jeebies, but hey, it takes all sorts of folks to make the world go round, right?

            The problem is when you change observances and you change your worship. Chabad might be about to step over the line, but they haven’t yet. Those fringe elements that have deified the rebbe have been disavowed by Chabad.

            Also, mainstream Orthodox Jews do accept the Biblical stories as the literal truth.

    • Jim says:

      Con,

      You write that several groups have come to an idea of a superhuman messiah, because of midrash. However, you know this is not so. None of those groups looked at midrashim and noted how the midrash was similar to the object of their affection. This is obvious, because not a one of these groups had a superhuman leader that did any of the things of which they believe the midrashim speak. Outlandish interpretations are necessitated by the failure of these candidates to become the Messiah.

      I do not think that I ever accused any of these groups of being “nuts” or anything like it. Perhaps I did and have forgotten. I do not believe that I called Christian “nuts” or anything like it. But that does not make their beliefs correct.

      In returning to the Rashi, you are neglectful. You say that a Christian may, when reading the passage apologetically, feel his tradition is vindicated. This is true. But we want to know if that feeling is justified and it is not. It is based on a biased and selective reading. He reads his prejudice into the passage, and his feelings do not alter that fact. If he begins at v. 16 as you did, I daresay that he will believe himself to be quite vindicated, but this only shows his lack of understanding. He does not take the whole Rashi. And he does not ask the right questions. He falls into the terrible fate of being in grave error and not knowing it. His feelings on the matter do not change the facts.

      Jim

  10. Dina says:

    A commenter mentioned Isaiah 53 and that it’s talking about Israel and Jesus. And the only reason I can’t see that is that I’m incredibly biased (while of course he is free from bias, no doubt).

    I know this is a lazy way to handle this, but I spent about a year discussing Isaiah 53 with Eric. Do you guys remember Eric? The guy who came here “to learn” but turned out to be a missionary in disguise? Do you remember how he turned tail and ran when Larry outed him? Hoo boy, I’m getting carried away with my nostalgic trip down memory lane. At any rate, I just don’t want to go through it again, at least not right now.

    So here’s a video by Rabbi Skobac. Everything by Rabbi Skobac is well worth hearing, and this is no exception.

    http://jewsforjudaism.ca/isaiah-53-suffering-servant-is-israel/

    • CP says:

      Dina,
      I’ve already spent three hours personaly talking with R’ Skobac on the phone. Extremely nice, helpful and knowledgable person. He is the one who cracked open the door for me realizing Judaism is a “legal” system. He is also said there are many many people like me nowadays and suggested I get involved with some sites on online and talk to others.

      R’B has also been very tolerant and helpful as have LarryB, Jim, Eleazar and Southern Noahide.

      Thank you for the link, I listened to it twice plus another on Daniel’s seventy weeks, which I need to listen to it again with pencil and paper to map out the two perspectives he presents. (So far listened to about 5 hours worth) But instantly noticed problems, for example he said repeatedly this is the only verse which could (by Christians) be interpreted for a Messiah who is rejected or despised. Thinking that can’t be right, I reached over, picked up Bible turned to Isaiah 53, looked at the references and low and behold right of the bat without any searching there were two more; Isaiah 49 and Psalm 22.

      Please allow some HONESTY; I tired tired tired of this kind of thing! BOTH – in case you missed it – BOTH BOTH BOTH Jews and Christians do this kind of thing to support their positions. I wish I could find someone totally objective and knowledgeable on this subject that I could trust to be 100% objectively honest! – instead this is taking years to sort through all the misinformation on BOTH sides by myself.

      • Dina says:

        It really is a problem when there are no honest or objective Jews or Christians in the whole entire world (except perhaps those who agree with you). No one can help CP; he must rely on his own unerring sense of the truth to sort through all the biases and prejudices on both sides. How sad and lonely a journey.

        Since CP is beyond human help, I address my remarks to the audience.

        I believe I have read Dr. Brown as saying that support for the doctrine of a messiah suffering and dying for the atonement of sins can only be found in Isaiah 53; Rabbi Skobac says the same thing. I believe he was not talking about the concept of only being depised and rejected, if memory serves (I haven’t listened to it in a while). I would have to listen again to be sure.

        However, be that as it may, Psalm 49 is clearly not talking about the messiah, as verse 7 refers to the servant as a “slave of rulers”; when was Jesus ever a slave of anyone, let alone multiple rulers? Verse 9 proclaims: “I will make you for a people of a covenant.” How do you make one messiah into a people?

        Psalm 22 is also not talking about the messiah; King David is lamenting his own misfortunes. You have to believe Jesus is the messiah in order to believe this Psalm is about Jesus–circular reasoning par excellence.

        CP can’t see his own bias; that’s why he thinks everyone else is intellectually dishonest.

        Let him refute Rabbi Skobac’s presentation on Isaiah 53 with substance rather than subjective emoting.

        • CP says:

          Isaiah 48:7-8
          Thus says the LORD, the Redeemer of Yisra’el, and his Holy One, to him whom man despises, to him whom the nation abhors, to a servant of rulers: Kings shall see and arise; princes, and they shall worship; because of the LORD who is faithful, even the Holy One of Yisra’el, who has chosen you.

          Thus says the LORD, In an acceptable time have I answered you, and in a day of salvation have I helped you; and I will preserve you, and give you for a covenant of the people, to raise up the land, to make them inherit the desolate heritage:

          Matthew 22:25-28
          But Yeshua summoned them, and said, “You know that the rulers of the Goyim lord it over them, and their great ones exercise authority over them.

          It shall not be so among you, but whoever desires to become great among you shall be your servant.

          Whoever desires to be first among you shall be your bondservant,

          even as the Son of Man came not to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many.”

          Psalm 22:6-19
          But I am a worm, and no man; A reproach of men, and despised by the people.

          All those who see me mock me. They insult me with their lips. They shake their heads, saying,

          “He trusts in the LORD; Let him deliver him; Let him rescue him, since he delights in him.”

          But you brought me out of the womb. You made me trust at my mother’s breasts

          I was thrown on you from my mother’s womb. You are my God since my mother bore me

          Don’t be far from me, for trouble is near. For there is none to help.

          Many bulls have surrounded me. Strong bulls of Bashan have encircled me.

          They open their mouths wide against me, Lions tearing prey and roaring.

          I am poured out like water. All my bones are out of joint. My heart is like wax; It is melted within me.

          My strength is dried up like a potsherd. My tongue sticks to the roof of my mouth. You have brought me into the dust of death.

          For dogs have surrounded me. A company of evil-doers have enclosed me. They pierced my hands and my feet.
          I can count all of my bones. They look and stare at me.

          They divide my garments among them. They cast lots for my clothing

          But don’t be far off, LORD. You are my help: hurry to help me.

          • Dina says:

            We have Bibles. I don’t know why these guys can’t just come out and make a point.

            Which rulers was Jesus a slave of? How was made into a people of the covenant?

            How does quoting Psalm 22 make it become a prophecy about Jesus?

            By the way, this is really about the charge of dishonesty made against Rabbi Skobac, so this is what needs to be clarified.

          • CP says:

            I made the point clearly and backed it with Scripture references, Then I addressed your “servant” objection with Scripture. In addition for clarification I posted the Scripture previously referenced. I’m not sure what more you want?

            R’ Skobac is simply mistaken.

          • CP says:

            Dina, since I’ve answered all your questions, please allow me to ask; Is there any record of people gambling for the clothes of David?

          • Dina says:

            For the record, CP did not answer any of my questions. He would like to know where it is recorded that people gambled for David’s clothes. Why did he pick this specific image in the Psalm? Why did he not ask the following:

            Where is it recorded that David is actually, in fact, a worm and not a man? (That would be really interesting!)

            Where is it recorded that God Himself drew David out of his mother’s womb and secured him on his mother’s breasts?

            Where is it recorded that David was surrounded by bulls and dogs?

            Where is it recorded that David was saved from the lion’s mouth and the horns of wild oxen?

            If this is about Jesus being crucified, why is he asking to be saved from the sword, and his only one to be saved from the grip of a dog?

            CP’s bias is so gigantically huge, he walked right into a trap of his own creation. I wonder how he can’t see his own bias.

          • CP says:

            Dina, I’m assuming that’s a no.

            Matthew 27:35
            “When they had crucified him, they divided his clothing among them, casting lots,”

          • Dina says:

            Folks, CP refuses to answer my question on why he chose this specific image in the Psalm and not the other ones to ask where this was recorded of King David.

            So I will answer for him.

            The reason he did not chose those other images is that they are clearly metaphorical.

            Metaphor: David is a worm.

            Metaphor: God Himself drew David out of his mother’s womb.

            Metaphor: David was surrounded by bulls and dogs.

            Metaphor: David was saved from the lion’s mouth and the horns of wild oxen.

            Metaphor: David’s enemies cast lots for his clothes.

            Oops! One little itty bitty phrase in this passage is literal, while the rest remains metaphorical.

            My friends, here is a big question:

            Is this intellectually honest?

            Is it intellectually honest to choose one item from a list of metaphors, make it literal, and apply it to Jesus because of the similarity between this verse and a verse in Matthew?

            Is cherry picking intellectually honest?

            None of the other images, taken literally, apply to Jesus. Is it intellectually honest to pick one image and ignore the rest?

            Finally, why would Jesus, about to undergo crucifixion, plead to be saved from the sword and his only one to be saved from the grip of the dog?

            CP cannot answer these questions. That is why he deflects.

  11. Eleazar says:

    >>>>Q: When you die, in what way have your sins been cleansed away enough for you to stand holy in the Almighty’s presence?<<<

    Probably the in same way as anyone else in Tanakh who stood in the Divine Presence as a mortal human: Moses, Elijah, Jacob, Abraham, Enoch, etc. In what way were their sins cleansed away enough to stand in the Almighty's presence?

    The problem is that you are trying to apply Christian fallacies to Jewish scripture and theology. In this case it is the "one must be 100% perfect and as holy as God in order to be in God's presence or to be considered righteous in His sight" fallacy. You are also redefining what "standing before God" means. The Tanakh has many people who stood in the presence of God who were not 100% perfect. In fact, there was probably not a single one who was. Even more so, most did not even make an atoning sacrifice before God came to them. Do you know why? Because unlike the Christian trinity, which demands a death in exchange for the the "accounting of holiness", the Hashem of Judaism is graceful and merciful. Ironically, the concept of Divine grace is more fully revealed, taught and depended on in Judaism than in Christianity.

    I have a question for you. As a Christian, do you believe you can die while unrepentantly committing a heinous sinful act and still stand holy before God? Yes or no? Why or why not?

    • KAVI says:

      Eleazar and LarryB,

      Kavi wrote to LarryB >>>>Q: When you die, in what way have your sins been cleansed away enough for you to stand holy in the Almighty’s presence?<<>>>A: Probably the in same way as anyone else in Tanakh who stood in the Divine Presence as a mortal human: Moses, Elijah, Jacob, Abraham, Enoch, etc. In what way were their sins cleansed away enough to stand in the Almighty’s presence?

      You begin your answer with “Probably. . .”

      It was this “probably. . .not” which tormented Rabbi Yochanan ben Zakkai– and on his death bed he wept bitterly over the unanswered questions of his “true” holiness in the presence of the Eternal, Almighty Judge.

      How does a person obtain assurance of holiness?
      __________________

      Let’s first examine what Torah teaches about repentance–
      [] G-d forbade repentance of sin to Adam and Chava– Gan Eden was no longer open to them.

      [] G-d forbade repentance of sin to Moshe Rabbeinu– Eretz Israel was no longer open to him.

      Q: What’s the point?

      A: Rest for the soul is only through G-d’s way of forgiveness through His Redeemer– not our way of repentance.

      Our godly sorrows over sin and our repentances can lead to the realization that salvation is only in Mashiach L-RD Yeshua– but sorrows and repentances in and of themselves cannot “save”.

      Q: What is G-d’s Way of forgiveness?

      A: From the beginning, G-d has not changed. . . nor has He changed His ancient path to holiness– forgiveness is by Faith in G-d’s Anointed Holy Redeemer. [Genesis 3]

      When anyone believes into L-RD Yeshua for forgiveness of sins, G-d Himself cleanses their soul from all unrighteousness because He promised to do so,
      AND THEN,
      “How blessed is the man to whom the L-RD does not impute iniquity,
      And in whose spirit there is no deceit!” [Psalm 32]

      Before the Almighty Judge, David knew that, as an adulterer and murderer, he needed G-d’s eternal Way to righteousness in order to gain G-d’s eternal assurance of holiness for his soul.
      __________________

      • LarryB says:

        KAVI
        I do not know why you brought me into this I Did Not give you an answer to your question. I even told you why. Let me try to make it even clearer. It seems to me that you believe in a different God in the Torah than I do. You think he is Jesus and I do not
        So to discuss what God said or meant is pointless when you believe it was Jesus who said it or who it is about. You will necessarily not agree with me because your understanding will be through the lens of Jesus. This is the only reason I can think of as to why most everything you say seems so cockeyed to me. There is nothing that Jesus said that means anything to me. There is nothing through the lens of Jesus even as the messiah, that means anything to me. If I agree to let you place Jesus into the Torah, then I have to let Horace’s Tree, by Jim also.
        https://yourphariseefriend.wordpress.com/2013/11/17/horaces-tree-by-jim/

        • KAVI says:

          LarryB,
          At your request, I looked at the essay, “Horace’s Tree”. . .

          The Problem? The essential premise is critically flawed– for it says,
          “[The christian] argues that the Tree of Life was the first incarnation of the Spirit.”

          Jim’s statement is false– such a concept does not exist in Torah or B’rit Chadashah/NT.
          ____________________
          Proverbs and Genesis mention the phrase “tree of life” more often than the few verses found in the Book of Revelation [and there, I see no reference to “Spirit” as Jim suggests].

          Now, given the mass of theological literature available on the internet, it’s quite possible that Jim found someone, somewhere out there who says such things– but they themselves would likewise be in error.

          “Horace’s Tree” may have value in generating discussion– but it does not contain truth. . .
          _________________________

          • LarryB says:

            KAVI
            You missed my point maybe if you read it again.

          • Dina says:

            Kavi, of course it’s not true. It’s a parody of the way Christians use Scripture to force their interpretation in order to justify worship of Jesus.

            You totally and completely missed the point.

          • Dina says:

            The point is, there is as much truth to Horace’s way of reading Scripture as there is to yours.

          • CP says:

            — The missed point really is —-
            It was Jewish Sages and Rabbis who first interpreted from the Scriptures two Messiahs; one suffering and one as King. When Yeshua fits a suffering Messiah ya’ll want change the rules of interpretation.

          • Jim says:

            Kavi,

            I have not had time to post much for the past couple of weeks, but seeing that you rewrote and changed the meaning of something I wrote, I must ask: Why do you find it acceptable to alter my words and thereby alter their meaning? Is it intentional or accidental? I am not offended, but I am curious.

            Jim

          • Jim says:

            I should be clear. By rewriting, I mean the bracketed words are a misrepresentation. I was not referring to a Christian or Christian doctrine but to the fictional Horace.

            Jim

          • LarryB says:

            Dina
            those are good points but the one I was shooting for, if I can get my point across, is that if I were to agree to a new understanding, interpretation of the Torah, where would that end. Sorry Im out of time, Ill try to finish later

          • Dina says:

            Exactly!

          • CP says:

            Jim,
            That is the problem!
            You have accepted a new interpretation of Torah developed after the Second Temple period.

  12. Alan says:

    CP, can you give me a scenario where according to Pharasaic Judaism, not washing the hands before eating would defile a person, i.e. washing the hands would have prevented the food or drink from making the person spiritually impure? I can’t think of any such scenario.

    • CP says:

      Alan;

      Matthew 15:1-2
      Then Perushim and Sofrim came to Yeshua from Yerushalayim, saying,
      “Why do your talmidim disobey the tradition of the Zakenim? For they don’t wash their hands when they eat bread.”

      Luke 11:37-41
      Now as he spoke, a certain Parush asked him to dine with him. He went in, and sat at the table,
      When the Parush saw it, he marveled that he had not first washed himself before dinner.
      The Lord said to him, “Now you Perushim cleanse the outside of the cup and of the platter, but your inward part is full of extortion and wickedness.
      You foolish ones, didn’t he who made the outside make the inside also?
      But give for gifts to the needy those things which are within, and behold, all things will be clean to you.

      Mar 7:1-9
      Then the Perushim, and some of the Sofrim gathered together to him, having come from Yerushalayim.
      Now when they saw some of his talmidim eating bread with defiled, that is, unwashed, hands, they found fault.

      (For the Perushim, and all the Yehudim, don’t eat unless they wash their hands and forearms, holding to the tradition of the Zakenim.

      They don’t eat when they come from the marketplace, unless they bathe themselves, and there are many other things, which they have received to hold to: washings of cups, pitchers, bronze vessels, and couches.)

      The Perushim and the Sofrim asked him, “Why don’t your talmidim walk according to the tradition of the Zakenim, but eat their bread with unwashed hands?”

      He answered them, “Well did Yesha`yahu prophesy of you hypocrites, as it is written, ‘This people honors me with their lips, But their heart is far from me.
      But in vain do they worship me, Teaching as doctrines the mitzvot of men.’

      “For you set aside the mitzvah of God, and hold tightly to the tradition of men — the washing of pitchers and cups, and you do many other such things.”
      He said to them, “Full well do you reject the mitzvah of God, that you may keep your tradition.

      • Alan Silver says:

        Thank you CP. I wasn’t aware of all of these passages. My question is how does eating bread with unwashed hands defile a person according to Pharasaic Judaism? As far as I know, this just doesn’t happen. But the writers of these passages have Jesus saying that according to Pharasaic Judaism, one becomes defiled by eating bread with unwashed hands. It seems to me the person who put these words in Jesus’s mouth didn’t really know Judaism.

        • CP says:

          “In Temple times there were elaborate rules in connection with ritual impurity. If a person had been rendered impure through having come into contact, say, with a dead rodent, he contaminated sacred food such as the tithe given to the priests, which must then not be eaten. The way in which contamination of this kind could be removed was through immersion in a ritual bath.

          But the sages imposed in certain circumstances the minor form of contamination known as “hand contamination” in which only the hands, not the whole body, was contaminated and for this to be removed total immersion was not required, only the ritual washing of the hands. Since there was a good deal of priests’ tithe in ancient Palestine which could easily come into contact with the hands, the sages eventually ordained that the hands of every Jew, not only the hands of a priest, must be washed ritually before meals.”

          http://www.myjewishlearning.com/article/hand-washing/

          • CP says:

            Your table is an altar. You are the high priest. That plate of delicious morsels before you, that’s the sacrifice. You do the ritual washing of hands, say a blessing on the food, and then dig in, to elevate all those carbs and proteins into a divine experience.

            So here’s ritual hand washing 101 (a.k.a. netilat yadayim):

            Do this only before eating a meal with bread or matzah (halachah also requires washing before cake, if it is eaten as a full meal). Bread is considered the staple food of all foods. Potatoes just missed the boat.
            This may sound strange, but before washing your hands, be sure that they are clean and free of anything that will obstruct the waters from reaching the entire surface of your hands. This is a spiritual experience, you recall. Beyond Pasteur.
            This is a spiritual experience, you recall. Beyond Pasteur . . .Remove your rings—unless you never remove them, in which case they are considered “part of your hand.”
            Fill a cup with water and pour twice on your right hand. Repeat on the left. (Lefties: reverse the order.) Chabad custom is to pour three times on each hand. Make sure the water covers your entire hand until the wrist bone with each pour. Separate your fingers slightly to allow the water in between them. Rabbi Chisda says, “Don’t skimp. Fill your hands with water and G‑d will fill them with His goodness.”
            After washing, lift your hands chest-high and say the following blessing:
            Blessed are you, L‑rd our G‑d, King of the universe, who has sanctified us with His commandments, and commanded us concerning the washing of the hands.
            בָּרוּךְ אַתָּה יְהוָה אֱלֹהֵינוּ מֶלֶךְ הָעוֹלָם, אֲשֶׁר קִדְּשָׁנוּ בְּמִצְווֹתָיו, וְצִוָּנוּ עַל נְטִילַת יָדָיִם
            (Baruch atah A-donay, Elo-heinu Melech Ha’Olam, asher kideshanu bemitzvotav vetzivanu al netilat yadayim.)
            [Say this blessing only if you intend to eat more than two ounces of bread.]
            Rub your hands together and then dry them. Be careful not to speak or get involved in anything else until you’ve recited the blessing on your bread and swallowed some too.
            If you take a washroom break during your meal, or otherwise soil your hands, you need to wash again—this time, without a blessing.

            http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/607403/jewish/Meal-Hand-Washing.htm

          • Alan says:

            Thanks. Right, the whole reason for washing the hands before eating bread was not to prevent the person himself from becoming defiled, but to prevent the priests’ holy food from becoming defiled. But the person who wrote these passages in the New Testament has Jesus saying something that is just plain wrong. To make matters even worse, he has Jesus say that nothing that a person swallows can defile him which is not just against rabbinic law but also against Torah law.

          • Another prominent Rabbinic decree is the hand-washing enactment. The purity laws take up many chapters in the Law of Moses. On a practical level these laws affect certain groups of people in specific situations. These laws pertain to all who partake of the offerings or who enter the Temple precincts, those who eat the second tithe in Jerusalem, and to the priests whose bread is holy. The impact that the purity laws had on these people was tremendous. Once one underwent the purification process it was necessary for them to maintain a much heightened sense of alertness. Any contact with an individual or with an object, no matter how slight is liable to negate the status of purity (depending on the status of the person or object). These laws had a powerful disciplinary effect for they forced the people to keep a high level of mental and physical consciousness and alacrity. Observance of these laws instilled in the people the sense that every action, no matter how slight, is significant before God. On a spiritual level, these laws inspired an awareness that the activity of eating with the appropriate frame of mind is an act of devotion towards God. Eating with the recognition that one is sitting at God’s table is an experience that is central to the Jew’s relationship with God. The laws of purity guided the people in the realization that the food they eat is holy. All of the moral discipline and the spiritual benefits of the purity laws were encapsulated by the Rabbis, in a miniature format, in the hand-washing decree. For more than 2000 years now, the hand-washing decree served to keep the nation in touch with the spirit of the biblical purity laws.

            1000 Verses – a project of Judaism Resources wrote: >

          • Dina says:

            They also kept them more hygienic, which is why I don’t understand Christians’ objections to this ritual. Do they not wash their hands before they eat? I mean, come on guys!

            In fact, the hygienic benefits of ritual hand washing (and bathing!) proved deadly to the Jewish people in one period in history. It kept the bubonic plague a little more at bay. Their Christian neighbors, looking for a scapegoat, alleged that the Jews had poisoned the wells. Of course, they overlooked the fact that many Jews did perish from this awful disease, so perhaps if they had died in greater numbers it would not have saved them. Entire Jewish communities were completely annihilated as a result.

            http://www.jewishhistory.org/the-black-death/

          • Alan says:

            Thank you, RB! This is very helpful. Do you agree that Jesus’s saying that “eating with unwashed hands doesn’t defile a person” in the context of these stories of eating un-sanctified bread shows a complete ignorance of Pharasaic Judaism?

          • CP says:

            Alan,
            R’B, is absolutely correct on how things are supposed to be. Dina is right about the history.
            -However-
            In reality what happens because of human nature is people start getting the wrong idea that it is the actual washing that cleanses spiritual impurity rather than the repentance behind it. Then they start to judge others by the same thinking and the whole intention behind the washing is lost with the emphasis being on something other than God intended.
            -This is was Yeshua was addressing- (imho)

          • CP You don’t need to engage in hand-washing to be judgmental – some people find it more virtuous not to wash their hands and they use this as a position from which to judge others. Historically, this (non-washers judging washers) has been the deadlier judgmentalism. 1000 Verses – a project of Judaism Resources wrote: >

          • Alan says:

            CP, if what you’re saying was actually Jesus’s point, that he was protesting the hypocritical washing of body parts, than he should have ended by saying something like, “It’s not the external washing that purifies a person, but rather the internal washing”, but instead he ends by speaking about eating not washing. What I’m saying is that in the process of his trying to show the hypocrisy of Jewish rituals he betrayed his ignorance of Torah law. He didn’t know that Jews who eat common bread without washing their hands do not become defiled if the bread is pure, and if the bread is defiled then washing the hands won’t keep the person from becoming defiled if he touches it. And on top of this mistake, he says nothing that a person eats can defile him. If I am wrong about any of this I hope somebody can correct me.

          • RT says:

            CP, what bugs me is that you won’t even acknowledge that Yeshua (or the writers of the new testament) could have done a mistake. How can we even talk to you about prophecies and other contradiction when you won’t acknowledge the obvious. Are you wasting all our times and are you unwilling to even see without bias? Jesus said that nothing that is eaten can defile a man. Well, pork, as per Torah, can defile a man. Now you will find any excuse and twist to put yourself out of the situation instead of saying that Jesus could have made a mistake. You try to appear as someone willing to listen and discuss, but I only can guess it is impossible for you to be neutral.

          • CP says:

            Alan & RT,
            The English NT should be read with some logic applied. Yeshua didn’t have a scribe, his words were written down by another much later. Yeshua spoke Aramaic which has been translated into Konie Greek and 1500 years later amongst a different culture into English. Therefore it is just not wise to hang on every word without considering cultural context, agreement with the Torah and the bigger picture.

            If one treats the NT like a detailed architecture diagram they will soon be interpreting their own ideas into the text. Having a Hebraic source, they should be viewed as a picture painted with broad strokes. Therefore the hand washing incidents are either addressing a faulty view of hand washing of Yeshua’s day or it has been redacted by those who misunderstood the culture, or both. But it doesnt matter; read in agreement with Torah and the other words of Yeshua the point is: internal defilement is just as important if not more important than external defilement.

            Yeshua didn’t speak like the southern prophets of the Tanach with “Thus says the Lord” nor did he speak like the Rabbis of his day who spoke in the “name of ” another Rabbi. Rather he spoke like a Sage, much like Jewish Wisdom literature or like the northern prophets Elijah and Elisha, in fact he did many of the same miracles. The point is he spoke with authority, just like one would expect Messiah to do.

          • CP
            You don’t have to read the NT like a detailed architecture diagram in order to read your own ideas into the text. In fact it is just as easy if not easier to read your own ideas into the text if you feel free to skip around and flip around words and sentences that don’t fit with your favorite version of the central character of the book.

          • Alan says:

            CP, with all due respect, no offense intended, are you saying that each person has to read the English (or Greek) NT like a pile of puzzle pieces and if some pieces don’t fit our own subjective picture we can throw them away and just keep the pieces that fit how we subjectively think the puzzle should look like? I think this is basically what you’re saying.

          • CP says:

            “CP
            You don’t have to read the NT like a detailed architecture diagram in order to read your own ideas into the text. In fact it is just as easy if not easier to read your own ideas into the text if you feel free to skip around and flip around words and sentences that don’t fit with” [the Torah and the cultural context of the time]

          • RT says:

            “Therefore it is just not wise to hang on every word without considering cultural context”

            CP, the cultural context looks like a lame excuse not to read what the text is really saying. Also, if the scribes of the new testaments are not reliable nor the Greek manuscript we have, then your own religion is based on fables and text that have been changed. I think that you are only finding excuses and are not willing to see the new testament for what it really is. You are blinded by your saviors, who is not YHVH, but Yeshua. Whatever we are saying won’t change your mind. Have you ever read the book of Mormons and thought “What a non-sense!” And, yet, when you speak to one of their “elder”, nothing that you may say will make them change their mind? Well, you are acting just like them. You have not been able to show any sustainable proofs, you just threw us a bunch of verses taken from a website, and now, when there is a clear misunderstanding of the Jewish Yeshua, or his scribe, you are finding a bunch of pathetic excuses for your savior.

            I really wonder what’s the point of talking with you if you are unwilling to have a serious conversation.

          • CP says:

            RT,
            Please tell me you did not really write this!

            “CP, the cultural context looks like a lame excuse not to read what the text is really saying.”

            The reason Christianity is misguided in many areas is because they have purposely seperated the text from the cultural context.

          • RT says:

            CP, yes I did write it. You use the context as an excuse when the text is clear. You reinvent what the text say to fit what you think a Jewish Messiah could or could not say just so it fits your own interpretation of your yamulke wearing Jesus. If Jesus would have eat pork with his friend, you would have find a lame excuse to say it did not really happen. You are excusing the lack of understanding of the writer of the new testament. The most likely explanation is that the writers were not Jews or very uneducated Jews on that subject. To give you an idea, that might be one of the many reasons why Jews never embraced the new testament. Text taken out of context and twisted in such a bad way is not really appealing for any Jew who would know the real meaning of the Jewish Bible. Neither are those false saying of Jesus.

  13. Concerned Reader says:

    “It is about bias that is as plain as day. The Messiah cannot (in the sense of impossible – we don’t need to pray for the Rebbe’s recovery because it is heretical to think of him dying) die before fulfilling his mission or there is no problem for the Messiah to die before fulfilling his mission. Both of these positions, in one week, the same group.”

    Rabbi, my point was, the Bible itself puts us in that position all the time, where we think it is impossible for X to happen to the righteous, but then it does.

    After the Exodus, it seemed as if the people would cross directly into the land full stop right away. However, the golden calf got worshiped, and the people were not able to go right into the land. Do you think the people thought they would be wandering for 40 years when they 1st left Egypt? Do you think they would have considered Moses’ doubters heretics before the sin of the calf if these doubters weren’t sure if they would make it into the land right away? Do you think people doubted when Moses himself couldn’t cross the Jordan?

    You say its 100% bias making the Messianics believe x dichotomy, but you have no way of verifying their motives. Also, scripture allows those illogical dichotomies to exist quite often. If messiah is lowly, and yet also on the clouds, a man acquainted with pain, yet blessed, it seems an acceptable dichotomy that a mission can have 2 phases, not least because his forerunner had two phases.

    Again, not saying I agree with the Christians, but it is scripture itself that gives space to these seemingly biased dichotomies for people to seize. Judging anyone’s motives though is speculative.

    I would agree that messianics seize on these ideas unjustly, but the Bible gives them the grounds for it. David failed quite often, but it wouldn’t be grounds to say, “well he isn’t or couldn’t be the messiah.”

  14. Dina says:

    Rabbi Skobac: Free of All Charges!

    CP misrepresents Rabbi Skobac’s words, then complains of a lack of honesty in both Jews and Christians.

    I listened to the first half hour of Rabbi Skobac’s presentation to see if there was any truth to CP’s charge that “he said repeatedly this is the only verse which could (by Christians) be interpreted for a Messiah who is rejected or despised” and then his complaint of “Please allow some HONESTY; I tired tired tired of this kind of thing!”

    Folks, please pay attention.

    Here is what Rabbi Skobac actually said:

    At minute 8:16: They [Christians] claim it [Isaiah 53] proves two things: Number one, it proves their contention that the purpose of the messiah is to come to die for the sins of the world…; and, number two, they believe that this passage proves that Jesus was that messiah.

    At minute 21:58: Again, from a Christian point of view, which insists that the central messianic prophecy, the one that describes the whole purpose of the messiah coming, was Isaiah 53…

    At minute 27:34: The problem with the Christian reading of Isaiah is that this is it. This is the only source they have, the only source for the idea that the messiah is supposed to come and suffer and die to atone for the sins of the world. There is no corroboration. Their entire thesis rests on this one unclear passage.

    CP would have better spent his time looking up passages in the Bible that corroborated with what Rabbi Skobac actually said had no corroboration, rather than with what he made up that Rabbi Skobac said had no corroboration.

    CP is so upset by the dishonesty on both sides that he feels he can’t trust anyone. If that is the case, how can he trust himself? What word other than dishonest would you use to describe what he has done?

    • CP says:

      Dina,
      Wrong
      Minute 37
      (Right before the ludicrous mentions of murdering pigs & killing trees)

      • Dina says:

        Okay, folks, I stand corrected and I apologize.

        Rabbi Skobac said that nowhere does the Torah say, except for Isaiah 53 if you accept the Christian interpretation, that the messiah will be despised and rejected. He is correct.

        Where does the Torah clearly teach that the messiah will be despised and rejected? The Torah teaches that the messiah will be a king. It teaches that he will be a descendant of David. It teaches that he will reign during a period of etc. and etc. and etc. (we’ve been through this a hundred times or more). These passages are so clear that they are accepted by both Jews and Christians as referrring to the Messiah. Can anyone find a passage that clearly shows that the messiah will be despised and rejected?

        (Jesus was not despised and rejected, by the way; according to the gospel accounts, he was extremely popular. According to those same accounts a small group of leaders conspired to kill him. This is not the same as being despised and rejected. What, he was holding out for universal popularity?)

        • CP says:

          Dina,
          Apology accepted, we all are human and make the occasional mistake. Does this mean we can be friends again? (That would be nice!)

          “Jesus was not despised and rejected” – This is another one of those things that is looked at according to a persons particular bias, so it depends. I think it is safe to say Yeshua was killed through Sanhedrin and Roman leadership and has been generally despised and rejected by Judaism, but not by all Jews.

          I think if more Jews knew the history of the Second Temple period and what was really going on, they may not accept him as Messiah, but they certainly would respect him as a hero of the Jewish Faith.

  15. Alan says:

    CP, do you believe that Jesus was crucified at the time when the Passover lambs were being killed (i.e. the afternoon of the 14th of the first month)? This is what it seems to be saying in John. But the other gospels say that Jesus ate the Passover lamb at the seder (the night of the 15th). How do you reconcile this contradiction?

    • CP says:

      Alan,
      I don’t think anyone 2000 years later really knows for sure. That said, I think people assume John is talking about an exact day, ie: Passover, Nissan 14 when Pesach can be one, two, three or seven days depending on what one’s intended meaning, (like Torah really means the first five books but is often used for the whole Tanach or instruction from God).

      There are hints in John that point to 14th Nissan when the Lambs are eaten, for example; assuming Judas went to give money to the poor. Something that trips people up is the terminology “preparation day” thinking it refers to preparing the lambs when is is commonly used to mean the day before Shabbat.

      I think the “Last Supper” was Thursday Nissan 14th, Yeshua crucified on Friday the 15th (preparation day) and taken down before the great Sabbath (sheave offering) on Saturday the 16th. This reconciles John with the synoptic Gospels.

      • Alan says:

        I think it’s clear from the following that John is saying he was crucified on the 14th at the time the Passover lambs were being killed (the Passover lamb is eaten the night of the 15th).

        John 18:28 –

        Then they brought Jesus from Caiaphas to the Roman governor’s residence. Now it was very early morning. They did not go into the governor’s residence so they would not be ceremonially defiled, but could eat the Passover meal.

        The only time to be worried about getting ritually defiled was before and during the eating of the Passover lamb. So John is saying that Jesus was killed before he had a chance to eat the Passover lamb.

        • CP says:

          Alan,
          (Daytime) Thursday Nissan 14th – lambs are prepared.

          (Evening) Friday beginning of Nissan 15th – lambs are eaten, Yeshua & Talmudim celebrate Passover.

          (Morning) Friday Nissan 15th (Preparation Day) – Yeshua is being judged.

          (Daytime) Friday Nissan 15th – peace offerings sacrificed, Yeshua crucified.

          (Afternoon/Evening) Friday/Saturday end of Nissan 15th – peace offerings are eaten, Yeshua body removed.

          (Evening) Saturday beginning of Nissan 16th – Great Sabbath.

          (Morning) Saturday Nissan 15th – Sheaf Offering.

          Since “Pesach” has a broader meaning than just the Nissan 15th lamb and since peace offerings are offered and eaten for seven days it is plausible John 18:28 was not referring to the Passover Lamb, but to a Passover Peace Offering meal.

          Alan, although not my first choice; there could be a mistake. Between the Synoptics and John, I’d say perhaps the school of John using a historical narrative method romanticized the narrative to have Yeshua killed the same time as the Passover lambs.

          My first choice is John does describe a Passover meal but is misunderstood by those not realizing the broader meaning the word “Pesach” can have.

          • Alan says:

            Thank you CP. I understand what you wrote. I did some research and it looks like almost all English translations of this verse (John 18:28) say “eat the Passover”, not “eat the Passover meal”. “Eat the Passover” means only one thing – the Passover lamb eaten on the first night of Passover (the 15th). It doesn’t mean any other meal eaten over the course of the holiday. And even the translation I used from the NET online Bible “eat the Passover meal” – the straightforward and reasonable meaning is the Passover lamb eaten at the seder. And John completely omits the story of the seder which appears in the other gospels (he has to leave it out if he wants Jesus to die on the afternoon of the 14th of Nissan). I give you a lot of credit for admitting this could be a mistake in the NT. But it’s not just a mistake, it was deliberate.

          • CP says:

            Alan,
            Thank you for the good discussion, it is a pleasure talking with you. I know I’ve missed some of your comments, having a job cuts into my free time.

            Today ‘eating the Passover’ means only one thing, but 2000 years ago with the sacrificial system still operational; sacrifices offered and eaten for seven days, I think it is not unreasonable to assume the phrase ‘eating the Passover’ doesn’t necessarily have to refer to the Lamb eaten on the evening of the 15th. This reconciles John with the other Gospels.

            However; if in fact John 18:28 is referring to the Lamb eaten on the 15th, then yes I’d agree it could be a deliberate ‘historical narrative’ by the School of John. But this wouldn’t be a game changer. The Tanach and the NT both have the fingerprints of man all over them. I believe the Bible is ‘infallible’; in that it does not teach any incorrect doctrine. I don’t believe it to be ‘inerrant’; without errors which don’t affect doctrine; such as we are discussing.

          • Alan says:

            Thanks for your kind words. I found out that the Greek in this verse is pascha (passover) – “eat the pascha”. According to the Chumash itself, “the passover/pascha” is the roasted lamb, it means only one thing – eating the roasted lamb:

            Exodus 12:21-

            כא וַיִּקְרָא מֹשֶׁה לְכָל-זִקְנֵי יִשְׂרָאֵל, וַיֹּאמֶר אֲלֵהֶם: מִשְׁכוּ, וּקְחוּ לָכֶם צֹאן לְמִשְׁפְּחֹתֵיכֶם–וְשַׁחֲטוּ הַפָּסַח. 21 Then Moses called for all the elders of Israel, and said unto them: ‘Draw out, and take you lambs according to your families, and kill the passover lamb (הַפָּסַח).’

            Exodus 12:43-

            וַיֹּאמֶר יְהוָה אֶל-מֹשֶׁה וְאַהֲרֹן, זֹאת חֻקַּת הַפָּסַח: כָּל-בֶּן-נֵכָר, לֹא-יֹאכַל בּוֹ. 43 And the LORD said unto Moses and Aaron: ‘This is the ordinance of the passover (הַפָּסַח): there shall no alien eat thereof;

          • CP says:

            Allan,
            I don’t disagree, but I think we need to read the NT in the time and cultural context it was written. Admittedly this is difficult to do with a time span of 2000 years and a markedly different culture. I agree the Chumash as read today points to the beginning of the 15th, but this is also 1500 years prior to the NT also in a markedly different wilderness culture. I believe it best to interpret in the cultural context it was written. If I wasn’t headed to work, I could show you how Luke (roughly the same cultural context) uses “pascha” in three different ways all meaning different things.

            Bottom line is this is why I lean to the view John is referring to a beginning 15th Nissan Passover. However this isn’t a mountain I’m prepared to die on; it could be in fact how you say.

          • Alan says:

            I believe you that the word Pesach/pascha can mean different things and that it means different things in Luke. It also means different things in the Chumash. However, in the Chumash and I bet, in the NT too, “EAT the Pesach/pascha” only means one thing – the Paschal lamb eaten on the night of the 15th. “KEEP the Pesach” means something else. But “EAT the Pesach” means one thing and I bet it means one thing in the NT too.

  16. Jim says:

    In answer to the second half of Kavi’s post, regarding repentance, here: https://yourphariseefriend.wordpress.com/2017/02/27/deadly-parable-excerpt-from-supplement/#comment-33953

    This will require more than one comment. Kavi’s post is full of distortions and misrepresentations, which should be addressed. In a second post, I will address his misuse and abuse of scripture, as well as the distortive phrasing he employs, e.g. “not our way of repentance.” In this comment, I will restrict myself only to the logic of his position.

    According to Kavi, the expulsion of Adam and Eve from the Garden of Eden and Moses’ being denied entry into the land of Israel indicate that repentance was ineffective to restore them to their prior position. He writes:

    “Rest for the soul is only through G-d’s way of forgiveness throught His Redeemer- not our way of repentance.

    “Our godly sorrows over sin and our repentances can lead to the realization that salvation is only in Mashiach L-RD Yeshua- but sorrows and repentances in and of themselves cannot save.”

    A brief consideration of Kavi’s argument will show that it relies upon tortured logic.

    According to Kavi then, two paths to forgiveness are under consideration. One is the path of man’s repentance, which is ineffectual. The other path is belief in the atoning power of the death of the Messiah, which is the power of salvation. Moses was unable under the first path to enter into the land of Israel after striking the rock. No amount of repentance could open that door to him again. This implies that, on the other hand, belief in the Messiah would have allowed Moses to enter the land of Israel.

    I hope the reader sees the problem.

    By Kavi’s reckoning, Moses meets with and speaks to Jesus in the Tent of Meeting. Kavi believes that the Torah, penned by Moses, prophecies Jesus, indicates the deep need of humanity for Jesus and his atoning death. He affirms John 5:46-47, where Jesus says: “If you believed Moses, you would believe me, for he wrote about me. But if you do not believe what he wrote, how will you believe what I say?” That is to say, according to Kavi, Moses did believe in Jesus. Since this is the case, by Kavi’s reckoning, Moses should have been allowed to enter the land of Israel, not due to his repentance but due to his faith in Jesus. And yet, he was not allowed.

    Kavi holds that all people are sinners made righteous only through faith. Recently, under a separate post, he calls Abraham, “wicked Abram”. And then he writes how Abram’s faith in Genesis 15 was counted as righteousness. If this is the principle, then surely it applies to Moses as well. Moses sinned, but through faith he is counted as righteous. What one finds, however, is that by Kavi’s test—whether or not Moses is allowed to enter Israel—faith is insufficient to make one righteous. Moses was still not allowed to enter the land. Faith in the Messiah proved to be no more efficacious than repentance.

    Of course, one might say that Moses did not have faith in an atoning Messiah, and this is why he did not enter the land. But, if one says this, then one admits that Moses did not teach an atoning Messiah. All those impositions on the text that the Christians make will turn out be just that—impositions on the text. And then one will have to say that those that believed Moses would be just those that did not acknowledge an atoning Messiah.

    Kavi’s logic fails. Either Moses did not believe in or teach an atoning Messiah. Or as Kavi holds, he believed in him and even spoke to him. If the former, then Christians do not understand Moses’ teaching. If the latter, believing on Jesus did not reconcile Moses to God, as per Kavi’s test that being reconciled to God means entering the land. It is clear that Kavi’s teaching is confused.

    Jim

    • Dina says:

      Jim, your problem is that you are not filled with the holy spirit. Allow yourself to be filled with the holy spirit and you will experience true freedom from the constraints of logic, reason, and coherence.

      • RT says:

        You are filled with the HS when you believe. And when you believe, you must give your whole heart and devotion to Yeshua and believe the every words of the New Testament (even if they do not make sense)… If doubts come, you did not have the HS in the first place…

        • CP says:

          No disrespect intended; but it is really really sad you must resort to fantasy degrading another religion for what? Make yours look good?
          Sorry to tell you folks; you’re actually accomplishing the opposite

          • Dina says:

            We’re just following in the fine tradition of the prophets, poking fun at idolatry. It’s part of our tradition.

          • Dina says:

            So sorry to break your illusion, but it’s no fantasy…

          • Dina says:

            We don’t need to make our religion look good. The Torah has a great track record producing highly ethical and moral societies. Not perfect ones, but certainly while in exile we did better than our Christian and Muslim neighbors in that regard. (That’s an understatement.)

            We already know you think Judaism doesn’t look good. You’ll find out the truth along with the rest of the world when God decides it’s finally time.

          • CP says:

            Dina,
            In kindness I’ve done my part, the responsibility is now on you.

          • RT says:

            I wonder if Isaiah accomplished the opposite with his degrading story of the man who used a long and degrade the fact that he was just worshiping a piece of wood?

            Maybe, there is a reason why G-d said that. Maybe, that wood cutting idol worshiping needed to be told in his face that it was ridiculous! Maybe, you need to be told in your face that your man-interceding “messiah” is non-sense and idol worship even if you say he is not G-d. Maybe, you need to be told that having two lords and two saviours and two gods is non-sense in the first place, regardless how “Jewish” it sounds.

            Maybe, we are not trying to be disrespectful, but like Jews who “burry” those who convert to Christianity, even if they like those family member… Maybe, it is not to be cruel, but you need some drastic and clear, non-butter, eye-opening reality check speech that will make you wake up!

        • Eleazar says:

          ” If doubts come, you did not have the HS in the first place…”

          Which is the response of every Christian in regard to my conversion to Judaism.

          My answer: I was told when I became a Christian that it was the holy spirit that led me to becoming one. Then it became clear after time that every “other” denomination and sect of Christianity was convinced that because I was not part *their* church, then I lacked the holy spirit, else I would be. However, whichever church I belonged to believed I was most definitely “spirit filled”, especially when I preached or wrote. But I was never a Calvinist. So to Calvinists, I was not only NEVER spirit-filled, I was led by the devil himself. When I left Christianity for good, I heard continually ( and continue to) that I was never really a Christian in the first place!
          My answer to them is “What if I am so spirit -filled that God led me out of Christianity into the truth of Judaism?”
          Their answer:

          • CP says:

            Eleazar,
            It is refreshing to hear you still cliam to be led by the Spirit of God despite nays sayers of all sects and religions.

          • RT says:

            Their answer: “two fingers in their ears, saying Bla-bla-bla, I don’t want to be tempted by the devil”… I heard that too!

    • CP says:

      Jim,
      I’ve read both of your posts to KAVI; there is a problem. This problem hinges on the word “Atonement” (at-one-ment). This at one ment was what Adam & Chava lost when they broke the very simplistic covenant given them by God. The point of repentance is not to get ‘things’ back we lost, but to be back at one with God. Some covenants allow for this, others don’t.

      Therefore to expect Adam & Chava’s resulting consequences to be based on the Mosaic Torah is comparing apples and oranges. The Text does offer a promise of a future human who will be stricken but overcome the one who overcame Adam & Chava.

      The point is; KAVI although bound by the same Torah as everyone, KAVI is not bound by the same conditions of Torah as everyone else to be at one with God; as Jews and Gentiles are subject to differing conditions of the same covenant. On top of this the Mosaic Covenant has been broken and Northern Israel divorced, therefore now we have a third class of people who need to be addressed by Torah.

      Torah teaches a man cannot take his divorced wife back after she has been with another. God divorced Northern Israel, she has been with another. Therefore according to halakhah how does the Messiah gather back the exiles to be at one with God under the Jewish yoke of Torah?

      • Dina says:

        CP distorted Jeremiah’s words. Had he read the whole chapter, he would have learned that the prophet says that unlike a human husband who is not allowed to take his wife back after she has been twice married, God seeks our repentance and will always take His people back.

        For God says, in Jeremiah 3, “If a man sends away his wife, and she goes away from him, and marries another man, may he return to her again? Will not the land become defiled? But you have played the harlot [with] many lovers, yet return to Me, says the Lord.”

        After describing Israel’s infidelity to God, He then says this, in verse 12: “Go and proclaim these words to the north, and say; Return, O backsliding Israel, says the Lord. I will not let My anger rest upon you, for I am pious, says the Lord; I will not bear a grudge forever.”

        The purpose of the parable in Jeremiah is obvious: the relationship between God and Israel is much stronger than the relationship between a human husband and wife. While the human husband cannot forgive (and must no longer live with) the wife who committed adultery, God begs us to return and will always take us back.

        CP asks, how according to halacha can God take His people back after divorcing them? Jeremiah gives us the answer: “Return, O backsliding Israel, says the Lord. I will not let My anger rest upon you!”

        CP is angry with me for reposting his own comments, which he says I distorted (a blatant lie, because I simply copied and pasted his own words, as anyone can see). But he has no problem distorting the words of God. If only CP were as zealous with guarding God’s words as he is with his own!

        • CP says:

          Dina, I’m not angry with you, but do sympathize with you.

          Yes Jeremiah said to return but didn’t say how. Yeshua read and understood correctly is a path of return if not ‘the’ path of return.

          • RT says:

            And for us, it is a path to be led astray. Why would it be a path to return, when you provide no arguments to show that Yeshua was actually the messiah?

          • CP says:

            RT, if you feel that way then you are letting Christianity define Yeshua for you rather than letting Yeshua be who he is; one calling for a return to Torah and the God of Israel.

          • Dina says:

            “If you feel that way”: we try the best we can not to allow feelings to dictate our search for truth. (We certainly don’t allow the feelings of others who have “experienced the power behind the name” to influence our search.)

            Jesus is the path to return? Where does the Torah teach that a person is the path to return?

            We don’t know how to return because Jeremiah in chapter 3 doesn’t say so? Are you kidding? Have you ever read the Bible? I recommend it; you might learn a thing or two. Jeremiah doesn’t have to say how to return because Tanach lays out that path loads of times. When God says “Return to Me” we know what He means because He already told us how in Deuteronomy. And Isaiah. And Ezekiel (read chapters 18 and 33). And so on. And so forth.

            Do you still stand by your statement that Israel can’t return to God halachically because of the laws of divorce? Or are you willing to concede that you distorted Jeremiah’s words to fit with your theological beliefs?

          • Alan says:

            CP,
            Will you have any time today to explain what you are doing when you “call in the name of Yeshua”?
            Thank you.
            Alan

          • RT says:

            CP, I think that your Yeshua is as much a second god as the Trinitarian god. I don’t see the difference. You may say that Yeshua was not G-d, but you still act like he is a god. That renders it as idol worship, instead of making an idol of God.

            Trinitarian believe Jesus is G-d, which is like making an idol.

            You believe that Yeshua is not G-d, so, you have to gods and that makes it worst, because you break the first commandment instead of the second commandment.

          • CP says:

            Alan, Currently at work, only able to pop in and out between classes, thanks reminding me. Probably wont be able to give a thoughtful answer until after Shabbat.

            RT, I think exploring the historical cultural context of ancient Mesopotamian gods would help you understand what I’m saying. Dr. Michael S. Heiser is a great source. (I’m not saying I agree 100% with everything, but he does know his stuff; he speaks and reads six different ancient Mesopotamian languages ad understands the cultural context)

          • Dina says:

            RT, isn’t that exactly the point? CP would have you deepen your understanding of his relationship with Jesus by studying the pantheons of ancient Mesopotamia. What happened to “You shall have no other gods before me”? And “gods that your fathers did not know”?

          • Alan says:

            CP,

            Jeremiah DOES say how to return. Chapter 7:3-8, 21-23

            3 Thus saith the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel: Amend your ways and your doings, and I will cause you to dwell in this place. 4 Trust ye not in lying words, saying: ‘The temple of the LORD, the temple of the LORD, the temple of the LORD, are these.’ 5 Nay, but if ye thoroughly amend your ways and your doings; if ye thoroughly execute justice between a man and his neighbour; 6 if ye oppress not the stranger, the fatherless, and the widow, and shed not innocent blood in this place, neither walk after other gods to your hurt; 7 then will I cause you to dwell in this place, in the land that I gave to your fathers, for ever and ever. 8 Behold, ye trust in lying words, that cannot profit.
            21 Thus saith the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel: Add your burnt-offerings unto your sacrifices, and eat ye flesh. 22 For I spoke not unto your fathers, nor commanded them in the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt, concerning burnt-offerings or sacrifices; 23 but this thing I commanded them, saying: ‘Hearken unto My voice, and I will be your God, and ye shall be My people; and walk ye in all THE PATH THAT I COMMAND YOU, that it may be well with you.’

          • Dina says:

            Good point, Alan, I was in too much of a hurry to check but suspected that was the case :).

          • RT says:

            CP, I think common sense would help you understand what I am saying… G-d + Yeshua = 2. Did you become like the man in Psalm 115? They have eyes, but do not see…

          • CP says:

            Allan,
            Did not Yeshua teach Jeremiah 7?

            Dina,
            People reading the Tanach around the time it was written understood who the gods were. Don’t you think this would aid you in understanding the Text?

            RT,
            I can only guess you have no idea what I’m talking about. Do you think there is only Hashem and mankind with no other existing spiritual entities?

          • Alan says:

            CP,

            “Did not Yeshua teach Jeremiah 7?”

            I can’t swear either that he said or didn’t say any of the words the NT says he said. But I do trust that Jeremiah said Jeremiah 7.

          • Alan says:

            CP,

            Joel 3:5 –
            And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered; for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem there shall be those that escape, as the LORD hath said, and among the remnant of those whom the LORD shall call.

            You wrote last week that you like to call in the name of Jesus for help. I did a search in Tenach and couldn’t find a single example of someone calling for help in the name of a human being or relying on the name of a human being. And I couldn’t find a single example of any of the prophets teaching that it is good or even allowed to call for help or trust in the name of anything but the name of Hashem.

            1 Kings 18:24 –
            Eliyahu said: “And call ye on the name of your god, and I will call on the name of the LORD; and the God that answereth by fire, let him be God.’ And all the people answered and said: ‘It is well spoken.’ ”

            Psalms 118 –
            10 All nations compass me about; verily, in the name of the LORD I will cut them off.
            11 They compass me about, yea, they compass me about; verily, in the name of the LORD I will cut them off.
            26 Blessed be he that cometh in the name of the LORD; we bless you out of the house of the LORD.

            Micha 4:5 –
            For let all the peoples walk each one in the name of its god, but we will walk in the name of the LORD our God for ever and ever.

            Zephania ch. 3 –
            9 For then will I turn to the peoples a pure language, that they may all call upon the name of the LORD, to serve Him with one consent.
            12 And I will leave in the midst of thee an afflicted and poor people, and they shall take refuge in the name of the LORD.

            Psalms ch. 20-
            2 The LORD answer thee in the day of trouble; the name of the God of Jacob set thee up on high;
            6 We will shout for joy in thy victory, and in the name of our God we will set up our standards; the LORD fulfill all thy petitions.
            8 Some trust in chariots, and some in horses;
            but we will make mention of the name of the LORD our God.

            Psalms ch. 124:8 –
            Our help is in the name of the LORD, who made heaven and earth.

            Psalms ch. 33:20-21 –
            Our soul hath waited for the LORD; He is our help and our shield. For in Him doth our heart rejoice, because we have trusted in His holy name.

            Psalms 129:8 –
            Neither do they that go by say: ‘The blessing of the LORD be upon you;
            we bless you in the name of the LORD.’

            Isaiah 50:10 –
            Who is among you that feareth the LORD, that obeyeth the voice of His servant? though he walketh in darkness, and hath no light, let him trust in the name of the LORD, and stay upon his God.

            Genesis ch 12:8 –
            And he removed from thence unto the mountain on the east of Beth-el, and pitched his tent, having Beth-el on the west, and Ai on the east; and he built there an altar unto the LORD, and called upon the name of the LORD. 9 And Abram journeyed, going on still toward the South.

            Genesis 21:33 –
            And Abraham planted a tamarisk-tree in Beer-sheba, and called there on the name of the LORD, the Everlasting God.

            Genesis 26:25 –
            And he built an altar there, and called upon the name of the LORD, and pitched his tent there; and there Isaac’s servants dug a well.

            1 Samuel 17:45 –
            Then said David to the Philistine: ‘Thou comest to me with a sword, and with a spear, and with a javelin; but I come to thee in the name of the LORD of hosts, the God of the armies of Israel, whom thou hast taunted.

            2 Samuel II 6:18 –
            And when David had made an end of offering the burnt-offering and the peace-offerings, he blessed the people in the name of the LORD of hosts.

          • RT says:

            CP
            “I can only guess you have no idea what I’m talking about. Do you think there is only Hashem and mankind with no other existing spiritual entities?”

            G-d does not want us to put any of the other entities above himself. You do that with Yeshua by declaring him lord and savior. Even if you don’t say it’s YHVH, you are still having two gods, but I guess you’d rather deny it.

          • RT says:

            If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved. 11 As Scripture says, “Anyone who believes in him will never be put to shame.”[e] 12 For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile—the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, 13 for, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”

            It’s clear, as per the NT, that the lord on whom Christians call is Jesus, not HaShem!

      • KAVI says:

        CP,
        Although I can’t say I agree with your analyses of my writings– you certainly have a knack for pointing out intriguing matters worth exploring. . .

        For what its worth, I plan on listening to your link for “Yeshua, the Torah Master” sometime this week–

        ______________________

    • KAVI says:

      Jim,
      Your analysis would be more appropriate if you set up a true comparison– you created a non-existent “apples to oranges” relationship–

      . . . Redeemed or not, The Serpent’s [Satan’s] realm of death cannot be allowed to “co-rule” with G-d in Gan Eden, Eretz Israel, or anywhere else. . .

      G-d is Eternal– He is Holy– He wishes to dwell with a people He creates eternally holy. . . the only way to do so is through an eternal faith in the Eternal Holy L-RD Redeemer. . .

      The proud ones will rebel against the G-d’s Way of Faith, “. . .but the righteous will live by his Faith.” [Habakkuk 2]

      ______________________

      If you wish to correctly join the concepts of Repentance and Faith– you must do so according to Tanakh– namely,

      REPENT of your way of thinking that “repentance for sin and doing good works results in G-d giving you His Holiness”.

      INSTEAD, “Turn to” Faith in the L-RD Yeshua as your Holy Redeemer in order for G-d’s to impart His Holiness into your eternal soul. . .

      THEN, you will have obeyed the command to circumcise your heart today“. . .[Deuteronomy 10:16]

      What do you do to circumcise your heart now?
      ______________________

  17. Jim says:

    Continuing to answer the second half of Kavi’s post, regarding repentance, here: https://yourphariseefriend.wordpress.com/2017/02/27/deadly-parable-excerpt-from-supplement/#comment-33953

    In this comment, I would like to address Kavi’s thoughts on the Garden of Eden being closed to Adam and Eve and how this proves that God “forbade repentance of sin” to them. Like the last comment I made in response to his comment, I am not going to deal with the logic of his comment and not with the misrepresentations of scripture. For this comment, I am going to be rather unfair with the text. I ask the reader to indulge me, because I will explain afterward why I so obviously am abusing the text when I have finished. Be assured that it is not because I feel that Torah is mine to rewrite as I please or to ‘interpret’ in any fashion I desire.

    Kavi wrote: “G-d forbade repentance of sin to Adam and Chava- Gan Eden was no longer open to them….

    “Rest for the soul is only through G-d’s way of forgiveness through His Redeemer- not our way of repentance.

    Our godly sorrows over sin and our repentances can lead to the realization that salvation is only in Maschiach L-RD Yeshua- but sorrows and repentances in and of themselves cannot ‘save’.”

    Remember please that I am about to take some liberties with the text; I have a point. Please bear with me.

    When Adam and Eve were in the Garden, indeed they sinned, and, indeed they were evicted. This shows the inefficacy of believing in Jesus and his atoning sacrifice. This can be seen from the fact that God tells them about the redeemer to come. As Kavi would have it, Genesis 3:15 promises a redeemer that would put an end to sin and death. God makes this promise in the hearing of Adam and Eve. Yet, though they believe God, he evicts them anyway, their faith unable to save them. It does not matter that they put their trust in the promise of God of a redeemer—supposed to be Jesus the Messiah—such faith could not save them.

    As I said, I have taken a small license. Genesis did not say anything about Adam and Eve believing the promise of God. And it does not say that God evicted them anyway. Why take the license then? It is important in order to illustrate the misrepresentations in Kavi’s argument.

    Kavi has distorted the text. Genesis 3 does not have Adam and Eve attempting to repent but being denied. When they speak to God, they do not even accept responsibility for their actions. Instead they blame others. Adam and Eve do not repent, and God does not reject their repentance.

    Now, Kavi will object that God cut off all future possible repentance, even “godly sorrows”. But if so, then he will have to also say that God also cut off the path of faith in Jesus. Because God is supposed to have promised to Adam and Even a redeemer, they were capable of realizing that they could only come to God through Jesus, that they need his salvation. But God cuts off that path to them by evicting them from the Garden and placing a guard. That is to say, if making return to the Garden impossible disproves the efficacy of repentance then it also disproves the efficacy of salvation through faith in Jesus.

    I remind the reader that Kavi argued elsewhere that “wicked Abram” [his words] was righteous only through faith. Therefore, it should be that if Adam and Eve put their faith in God’s promise and in the future redeemer, they would become righteous. And, by Kavi’s reading of the text, they should have been allowed reëntry into the Garden of Eden. Once again, his logic fails.

    And I reiterate that his logic is based on his reading into the text. At no point in the text do Adam and Eve repent only to be rebuffed by God. His argument rests upon nothing but his own eisegesis. But the logic undoes his own interpretation of the text.

    Just as with Moses being disallowed to enter the promised land, Adam and Eve being disallowed reëntry into the Garden of Eden does not prove that God does not forgive the repentant, except through belief in Jesus. The text does not indicate that God rejected a repentant Adam and Eve. And, if one wishes to say the path to repentance was cut off to them, then so too was the path through realization that they need a messiah and belief in Jesus. Kavi has ignored the passages in Tanach that address repentance, relying instead upon his own tortured logic.

    Jim

  18. Eleazar says:

    “Eleazar,
    It is refreshing to hear you still claim to be led by the Spirit of God despite nays sayers of all sects and religions.”

    Read it again, CP. I do not necessarily make this claim. I am taking their own belief and words and to the next level, although I have had experiences that led me to Judaism that are very difficult to explain otherwise. Even my Jewish name, “Eleazar Dekel Ben Avraham”, is taken from an experience that occurred almost 8 years ago ( If you are interested in numerology, I converted 40 years after becoming of age, and 7 years after starting my study of Judaism). Some Jewish rabbis accept the possibility of my experiences and some do not. Either way, it is about the reality of Israel, Torah and its God, not my personal experiences.

    I do not necessarily claim these were “miracles”, or that I am “spirit-filled”. People claiming such are a dime a dozen and occur in every spiritual religion under the sun. But the fact is they did lead me down my current path to some extent. Truth is, I struggle with the topic of supernatural intervention, as I have feelings on both sides of the debate. I can relate to Kabbalah and Chabad on some levels, but see teachings that, at this point, are a bridge too far.

    If God gave Pharaoh two dreams to save thousands of pagan Egyptians ( and Israel), it did not prove the truth of Egypt’s pagan religion. Nor did Pharaoh try to convince Joseph that the dreams proved the truth of pagan religion, as far as I know. A such, my own experiences are not what made me convert. They only piqued my curiosity and drove me to seriously study the claims of Judaism as a non-trinitarian Christian who was “letting go of Jesus one finger at a time” ( Singer). Had those claims proven false, the experiences would have changed nothing.

    In the end, I converted to a religion that I do not have to make excuses for.
    Spirit-filled? Me? I don’t know, but frankly that is not what matters. It is my decision to embrace God and His Torah that matters. A few might call that spirit-filled. Billions call it a demonic, legalistic, rejection of Christ.

  19. Jim says:

    Recently, a commenter here, echoing the oft-quoted presumptuous question, “When did you stop beating your wife?” asked a Jewish woman if she supported or repented of the Sanhedrin’s corrupt trial and murder of the righteous Jesus. The same commenter objects to the mention of Christian crimes against the Jewish people, sometimes quoting from Proverbs: “For lack of wood, the fire goes out.” (He uses Tanach less for understanding and more for a weapon, the Bible as ammunition.) He argues that the Holocaust is 80 years in the past, as if that makes it ancient history, as if the culmination of 2,000 years of Christian oppression of the Jew was a one-time event of great magnitude but short duration. His constant attitude is that the Church has repented of this evil and that the Jew should stop complaining about it. Yet it is not clear that the Church has repented of its history.

    This commenter’s own words, if indicative of the Church in general, reflect a lack of repentance on the part of the Church. (And they may reflect nothing more than his own private attitudes.) Shortly after my wife and I realized the falsity of Christianity and accepted upon ourselves the Seven Laws, my wife had a strange encounter. Upon hearing of my wife’s rejection of Christianity and acceptance of Torah, a co-worker named her a “Christ Killer.” This epithet carries a frightening undertone. The history of such an accusation is well-known. It is a label of hate applied to the Jewish people by the Church, an excuse for violence and oppression directed against the Jewish people.

    The commenter that demands the Jewish people repent of an event that never happened, in effect, calls the Jewish people “Christ Killers.” By demanding their repentance, he forces them to affirm the fiction of the New Testament to be fact. Moreover, he puts the Jew in the position of echoing the words of Matthew: “His blood be on us and on our children!” (27:25). He makes the Jew to be guilty of a supposed crime from 2,000 years ago and demands that they affirm that they carry the guilt of that crime or repudiate a trial of which they have no knowledge. He affirms that Jesus’ blood is on the heads of the children of the Jewish people, on the descendants of those that died 2,000 years ago.

    A tragic irony underscores the words of this commenter and some of the other Christians that come to this blog. He and others have argued that the Jewish people have suffered at the hands of God. This reading of Torah is not entirely incorrect. The Jewish people do not deny that they suffer according to the curses of the Torah. However, the Christians have used this to absolve the Church from its own guilt. They do not hear in their own words an echo of Isaiah: “Surely he has borne our infirmities and carried our diseases; yet we accounted him stricken, struck down by God, and afflicted” (53:4). While their own accusations affirm the Suffering Servant to be the Jewish people, they insist that it cannot be they. Nor do they recognize that Israel has “received from the Lord’s hand double for all her sins” (Is. 40:2). While these commenters comfort themselves with the idea that the Jewish people are suffering only what they deserve at the hands of God, they overlook God’s displeasure with the oppressors of the Jewish people: “And I am extremely angry with the nations that are at ease; for while I was only a little angry, they made the disaster worse” (Zech. 1:15). The comments that minimize Church wrongdoing by pointing to the guilt of the Jewish people cannot absolve the Church of her responsibility.

    Moreover, the attempt to absolve the Church of guilt is not the act of the repentant. Christian commenters do not attempt to free the Church of guilt only by blaming the Jewish people. They also attempt to distance themselves from the history of the Church: “Those were not real Christians. Real Christians do not kill and oppress others.” The true Church, then, has nothing of which to repent, according to these commenters. It was a false Church that perpetrated these acts. How different they are to Daniel who offered a prayer of repentance: “…we have sinned and done wrong, acted wickedly and rebelled, turning aside from your commandments and ordinances” (Dan. 9:5). Daniel sees himself a part of the corporate body. He does not distance himself, justifying himself with the claim that those that sinned were not “true Jews.” He does not absolve himself. As long as members of the Church do distance themselves from their history, it is questionable that a true repentance can be reached by the Church.

    Another obstacle makes repentance hard to attain for the Church. The same motivations that led to the oppression in the first place, still exist in the Church. The Church still attempts to proselytize the Jewish people. The Church is not content to repent of its treatment of the Jews and leave them alone. Instead, she continues to send wave after wave of missionary efforts to the Jewish people. It was the frustration of such efforts that, in part, motivated the Church to oppress the Jewish people in the first place. To this day, the missionary calls the Jew hard-hearted and spiritually blind. He does not call for violence against the Jewish people, but he does attack his character. He does show him disrespect, echoing Paul, who wrote of the Jewish people: “But their minds were hardened. Indeed, to this very day, when they hear the reading of the old covenant, that same veil is still there, since only in Christ is it set aside. Indeed, to this very day whenever Moses is read, a veil lies over their minds; but when one turns to the Lord, the veil is removed” (2 Cor. 3:14-16). One outcome of this belief is that the Jew is not heard. His job is to listen to the enlightened Christian. And though it can be shown that the Christian has misunderstood Tanach—or misrepresented it—the Christian will not hear the objection, it coming from a spiritually blind individual. The Christian demands to be heard but frees himself from the reciprocal obligation to listen. This cannot be considered a full repentance, for the Church still imposes itself upon the Jewish people, treating them unequally. And the danger of violence may not be forever extinguished as long as the Church maintains the goal of turning Jews to Christians.

    A further obstacle to repentance is found in the Church’s employment of Jewish works. One of the great crimes of the Church is its treatment of Tanach. The Church may have had a right to codify her own religious document, but she had neither the authority nor the right to declare her own religious texts to be a part of the Jewish tradition. The Church has stolen the Jewish Bible. Moreover, the Church makes frequent misuse of those scriptures, misquoting and misrepresenting them—a practice she does not allow to be applied to her own scriptures. Now the Church deepens that crime by borrowing the words of the Jewish sages, misquoting and misrepresenting them as well. Such misappropriation is contrary to repentance, but it continues.

    The commenter that looks for the Jewish people to repent of a crime that may have never happened would be better looking to his own house first. I am grateful for the cessation of violence from the Church directed at the Jewish people. However, the Church has not yet affected a full repentance. As long as the Church blames the Jewish people for its actions, it will be unable to fully repent. As long as it insists that the Jewish people hear its message, it will be unable to fully repent. As long as it imposes its own meanings on Jewish sources, it will be unable to fully repent. I hope that such repentance comes soon, and that the Church will cease imposing itself on the Jewish people. Until then, let the Church stop pointing to the faults of the Jewish people and tend to her own.

    Jim

    • Dina says:

      Well said, Jim!

    • LarryB says:

      Jim
      This covers one commentators view very well. I have a question, can we say that the Pharisees that Christians believe killed Christ weren’t real Jews? Real Jews are agains’t murder. It would be wrong to hold a nation guilty for the acts of a few. They didn’t even do the killing verses false Christians murdering people in the streets.

      • CP says:

        ” can we say that the Pharisees that Christians believe killed Christ weren’t real Jews?”

        Uh, Duh? Hasn’t anyone been listening? This is EXCATLY what I’ve been researching and posting!

      • Dina says:

        Larry, I love what you said here. Since real Jews are against murder, it can’t be that any real Jews were involved in Jesus’ death (putting aside the fact that the trial never actually took place). Which begs the question: what is CP researching here, exactly? It should be as obvious to him that so-called Jews were involved as it is obvious to him that so-called Christians persecuted Christians.

        Two dead giveaways: the fact that he demands that all Jews confess and repent of Jesus’ death (without feeling the need to confess and repent of Jewish deaths at the hands of his co-religionists) and the fact that he has to research if real Jews were involved, unable to apply to them the same standards he applies to Christian oppressors of Jews.

        These two items are dead giveaways to what? His anti-Jewish attitudes.

    • CP says:

      Want to know what ya’ll sound like even to other Jews? I’ve tried to inform you nicely of the results of your victimhood reverse hate speech mantra. You think you’re accomplishing something? You are, but not what you think. Don’t believe me? Take a look at the results for yourself:

      • Dina says:

        CP proved my point. This is one of the most anti-Semitic things I’ve ever watched in recent history in this country (granted, I don’t visit white supremacist websites). I showed this to a few people and they were shocked into speechlessness.

        So if you think Michael Savage is right (he has his facts so wrong!) and the Jewish caller wrong and the disgusting anti-Semitic pictures superimposed over Michael Savage really nice, then you, sir, should be thoroughly ashamed of yourself.

        Every day you reveal your true colors more and more, and they ain’t pretty.

        • Dina says:

          Classic whitewashing of Christian history and classic refusal to listen to Jews. The more things change, the more they remain the same.

        • LarryB says:

          Great point Dina, the title at the top was put there by CP. Also Savage may be Jewish but he definitely has his own version of it. In fact most Jewish people who call into his show end arguing with him. He fits CP mold nicely.

      • LarryB says:

        I actually listen to Mchael Savage, he is Jewish and can be quite funny. One thing he did not say was Jews need to apologize for the killing of Jesus. Which you have pressed on here, and is one of the main topics Jim spoke of. Also he has a radio show that is probable 99 percent Christian. he was trying to be fair but like I said, no one asked him to apologize for killing Your Jesus I wonder what he would have told you on that one?

      • Dina says:

        I’m actually shaken by this, but will try to put my emotions aside for the moment and examine the facts.

        Michael Savage asked the caller who liberated Buchenwald. Sure, Christians liberated Buchenwald (and other concentration camps). After refusing to take in Jewish refugees (including the United States), after refusing to bomb gas chambers (they were given maps by Jewish activists), and after not protesting Hitler’s actions against Jews for six long years.

        Some Christians saved Jewish lives at risk to their own. But they would have never had to, had the overwhelming majority of Christians resisted the Nazi effort in the beginning. Hitler knew he could exterminate the Jews with the willing cooperation or indifference of Christian countries.

        We know that the Nazis could have been resisted. When the Nazis overran Denmark, the king threatened to put on a yellow star if the Nazis didn’t repeal their anti-Jewish edicts. The Nazis backed down. The Danes evacuated nearly all their Jews and snuck them into Sweden.

        A French village saved all their Jews, each family taking in individuals. Not a single Jew from that town was taken.

        The Nazis could have been resisted. The Holocaust didn’t have to happen. Hitler was able to nearly successfully carry out the Final Solution to the Jewish Problem because of the active cooperation or apathetic indifference of the overwhelming majority of Christians.

        Our own family members were killed by Nazis and Christians; how dare Michael Savage tell us to get over it?

        Christians can’t get over the death of one Jew and it’s been 2000 years! Yet they have the nerve to tell us to get over the deaths of six million that took place only last century!

      • Eleazar says:

        Are you an alt-right Trump supporter by any chance, CP? Your recent wording indicates that. This vid seems to confirm it.

        • LarryB says:

          He sounds more like a alt left Keith Ellison supporter

          • Dina says:

            CP should know that Savage’s Jewishness does not automatically grant him credibility.

            Yes, this video looks like it must have been taken from an anti-Semitic website, judging from the images. What is CP doing on such sites if that is the case?

          • LarryB says:

            Dina
            Jim wrote a great article. CP has nothing more to say than some semi famous Jew whose audience is 99 percent Christian agrees with me?
            Jim must feel devastated. 🙂 .
            What got me was his threat. “. I’ve tried to inform you nicely”. Now take that ! Does he think we’re snowflakes like his students?

      • LarryB says:

        CP, with thumbs in ears and fingers wiggling forward screaming Na,Na ,Na ,Na ,Na ,Na.
        Sorry, that just popped into my head. Oh my.

  20. CP says:

    Judging from the comments – Ya’ll still aren’t listening, missing the entire point of the post, too busy with accusations and victimhood speeches to actually hear.

    The point is: I just proved the results of actions and attitude like yours.

    Let me get this straight – You think you can act however you want and when you don’t get the desired response, it is somehow someone else’s fault? Why would you do the same thing over and over expecting a different response? Do you think it is because some people live and learn and others just live?

    I would love to answer all the absurd character assassination attempts above, but why? if what was already posted is so maligned and misunderstood. I would be guilty of the above paragraph. However there is one that made me laugh:

    From Dina;
    “Yes, this video looks like it must have been taken from an anti-Semitic website, judging from the images. What is CP doing on such sites if that is the case?”

    Actually this popped up Youtube while watching Dr. Henry Abramson videos on the History of Judaism.
    Btw, LarryB, No, I did Not add the title, look it up yourself.

    On a side note: When I discovered my great grandparents on both sides of my family were Jewish, I was incredibly proud, but after being here for awhile, I’m starting to feel embarrassed – Just say’n

    • Dina says:

      We’re not assassinating your character, we’re just listening to you talk. The more you talk, the more you reveal the nature of your hateful character and inherent anti-Jewishness.

      We don’t have to assassinate your character; you’re doing it to yourself.

      I posted a list of hateful comments you made, copied and pasted exactly as you wrote them. Instead of repudiating them or standing by them, you falsely charged me of distortion.

      Be a man and defend or retract those hateful statements.

      You recently distorted Jeremiah’s words to fit your theology. Be a man and admit the distortion.

      Be a man and explain why it’s okay for Christians not to stop obsessing about the death of one Jew 2000 years ago, but it’s not okay for Jews to be unable to get over the deaths of six million Jews less than 80 years ago. (For me, including my own close relatives.)

    • Eleazar says:

      Hey, CP, you didn’t answer MY question. I feel so left out. 😦

      • Dina says:

        Eleazar, do you remember when we discussed the White House Holocaust statement which scrubbed any mention of the Jewish people? CP felt that was the right thing to do, being inclusive. You see, many people suffered from the Holocaust, not just the Jewish people.

        As you know, Eleazar, while many suffered along with the Jews, Hitler specifically implemented the Holocaust as the Final Solution to the Jewish Problem. The Holocaust was a war primarily against the Jews, and even when the war was going badly, he continued to divert resources to its implementation (one of the factors ultimately contributing to his defeat).

        However, the alt right, while not ready to deny the Holocaust outright, refuses to recognize the significance of the Holocaust to Jewish history, and the phrase “being inclusive” as its defense is typical alt right lingo. This being the case, your question, combined with the posting of the video, is certainly a fair one.

    • Dina says:

      “The point is: I just proved the results of actions and attitude like yours.”

      Where CP hears a crazed Jew ranting on the radio, we hear an impassioned Jew being smacked down for telling the truth.

      That’s the difference in perspective that rather proves our point.

      CP can laugh. Our enemies mock us and laugh at us. But they won’t be laughing on the last day.

    • Southern Noahide says:

      CP, you’ve mentioned several times about your great grandparents. How about your mother and maternal grandmother, are they both jewish?

  21. Jim says:

    I must protest along with Dina the posting of a video that includes images meant only to foster contempt for the Jewish people. It does not matter that it popped up after watching a video from a Jew. Hiding behind such excuses does not mitigate the responsibility of the one that posts such a video.

    It is important that the reader understand the relevance of my comments regarding Christian persecution of the Jewish people. The Christian will claim that Jesus brought Torah to the world. He will say that Jesus greatly improved it. However, he neglects those parts of the history of the Church that do not support his position. His facts are cherry-picked, as he ignores the troubled history of the Church.

    At the same time, he indicts the Jew. He subtly justifies the crimes of the Church by saying that the Jew got only what he deserves for rejecting and killing Jesus. On the one hand he distances himself from those that burned synagogues and on the other, he argues that the Jew deserved it.

    This, then, is why I bring up the poor treatment of the Jews at the hands of the Church, because of its relevancy to the claims of the Church. Personally, I am disinterested if this particular man or group is an anti-Semite. But when the Christian claims that the teaching of the NT has been a force for good in the world, it must be pointed out that this is not so. The Christian has no problem pointing out the faults of the Jewish people, faults that the Jewish people readily admit. The Christian will point to the golden calf to indict the Jewish people, but he cries foul when the history of the Church is mentioned, though that history be much more recent than the incident of the golden calf.

    Let the reader consider this: the Jewish scriptures do not paper over the faults of the Jewish people. Rather it magnifies them. Even the leaders of the Jewish people do not escape unscathed. The Christian Scriptures are not so candid. The head of the religion is supposed to have been perfect. It is inconceivable to the Christian that he could have done any wrong, despite evidence to the contrary. The Church has used the faults of the Jewish people, admitted by the Jewish, people against them, while ignoring its own faults. Perhaps the Church should tend to itself.

    Jim

    • CP says:

      Jim, you write;
      “The Christian will claim that Jesus brought Torah to the world. He will say that Jesus greatly improved it. However, he neglects those parts of the history of the Church that do not support his position.”

      Yes, Yeshua brought the Torah to the world and greatly strengthened the It. But what does the Church have to do with anything? What do observant Jews have to with anything? After your journey you still do not know the mission of Yeshua?

  22. Dina says:

    The Character Assassination of CP? Not a Chance!

    Every time I quote back CP’s own words, point out his anti-Jewishness, or clearly demonstrate that he has told a lie, he complains that I am engaging in character assassination.

    I am nearly finished rereading a book on Christian anti-Semitism which discusses traditional anti-Jewish attitudes that live on even after the Holocaust.

    Some of these attitudes include the following:

    1. Belief in continuing Jewish guilt for the death of Jesus.
    2. Belief that Jews don’t love God.
    3. Belief that Judaism as practiced by observant Jews is cold and legalistic as compared to a warm and spiritual Christianity.
    4. “So-called” Christians persecuted Jews, not real Christians. However, they do not use the term “so-called” Jews for Jews they disapprove of. On the other hand, they will say that a good Jew is acting like a Christian.

    I posted comments written by CP that reflect these attitudes. I suppose it isn’t fair to CP that I’m picking on him. I could just as easily pick on Kavi or any number of Christians who have visited this site in the past or even Christians of my personal acquaintance. My point is not to show CP up as an ugly anti-Semite but to show that Christians still cling to anti-Jewish attitudes even as they disavow anti-Semitism. My point is to show that while Christians have begun to reject anti-Semitism, they will never be able to fully eradicate this moral disease until they recognize these subtle and not-so-subtle prejudices in themselves, understand their source, and consciously work to root them out.

    CP is an easy target (forgive me) because I have been dialoguing with him for a long time and saved many of my notes, something I rarely do and which therefore allows me to catalogue and organize his comments.

    So, nothing personal, but here goes. Although I repeat myself, see his comments below.

    Belief in continuing Jewish guilt for the death of Jesus.

    Again, these are CP’s exact words, copied and pasted from his own comments.

    Myself and every Christan I know is extremely tolerant of the unrepentant Jewish position of murdering Yeshua.

    But this is all besides the point because you still are unrepentant. You rail on historical Christian antisemitism one second then commend modern Christians for their repentance yet stand by the decision of our forefathers to hand a innocent man over to Roman authority to be executed. Even though this is just plain wrong, most modern Christians tolerate your unrepentant position, instead choosing forgiveness and reconciliation.

    As long as you continue to embrace and support the decision of 2000 year old religious leaders, whom you don’t even know, you will continue to look for ways to justify your position rather than confess and repent.

    Far as I’m concerned, anyone who thinks the Sanhedrin righteous for turning over a fellow Jew to be tortured and nailed on a cross to die for teaching a return to Torah and claiming to be Messiah should share in their judgement, however Yeshua’s interpretation of Torah teaches to forgive them and leave it to God to sort out.

    Belief that Jews don’t love God.

    Christians constantly talk about God, quote Scriptures to each other, have Bible studies and community outreach. The Jewish community, not so much…Jews have Mezuzahs and Tefillin and Christians can’t stop talking about God.

    Belief that Judaism as practiced by observant Jews is cold and legalistic as compared to a warm and spiritual Christianity.

    (See previous quote.)

    “So-called” Christians persecuted Jews, not real Christians. However, they do not use the term “so-called” Jews for Jews they disapprove of. On the other hand, they will say that a good Jew is acting like a Christian.

    Thank you for your reply(s). It is enlightening and refreshing to learn of such things among the Orthodox community. Ya’ll sound very Christian!!

    These comments serve to highlight underlying and perhaps even unconsciously anti-Jewish bias that continues to infect many, if not most, devout Christians.

    Christians say that those who committed atrocities against the Jews were not real Christians. However, history shows us that the more one loved Jesus, the more likely he was to hate Jews. Christian piety was directly linked to Jew hatred. If one loved Jesus, how could one love the people who rejected him and nailed him to the cross? This idea is not, in light of the comments above by a supposedly enlightened Christian, at all farfetched.

    Finally, CP finds our horror of his Christian legacy a condition that makes him embarrassed to be Jewish. He prefers to castigate us for acting the victim. What does this tell you about his attitude to Jews?

    • CP says:

      Dina,
      It is quite obvious you hide behind the Christian anti-semitism crusade band wagon to avoid dealing with the real Yeshua. It can be seen in your dealings with me; one who doesn’t hold up the fake Jesus of Christianity and their doctrines, but rather the real Yeshua and his mission. Therefore you do all you can to try to make me out as a anti-Semite, which if you knew me is extremely laughable. I sympathize with your fear of the truth, however the exibition of subtle dishonesty is disappointing esecially for one claiming to follow Torah.

      • Dina says:

        This is disgusting in light of the hours and hours of writing I have spent examining the problems with the “real Yeshua.” There’s nothing for me to hide behind even if I wanted to, because Christianity’s problems are in your face, beginning with the avodah zarah of Jesus and ending with Christian anti-Semitism.

        You’re the one who’s being dishonest, pretending I have not dealt with the issues head on, using massive Scriptural support for my arguments, while you rely on unsubstantiated speculation.

        If you think it’s laughable to post an anti-Semitic video with images that it didn’t even occur to you that Jews would find hurtful and shocking, then that shows insensitivity on your part. I can’t help you be a mentsch. That’s your business.

        You sit on your high horse, self-righteously berating all who don’t accept your version of Jesus and your version of history (all while professing that you have come here to “learn”; now, that’s laughable). The time is long overdue to take a good, hard look in the mirror.

        • CP says:

          “didn’t even occur to you that Jews would find hurtful and shocking,”

          How is it an intelligent woman like yourself not see this? It is supposed to shocking! I’m showing you first hand exactly what your attitude and rhetoric produce from the outside world. You are the one creating anti-Semitism and then blaming the outside word for it. Can you say ‘reality check’.

          • Dina says:

            I’m talking about the images, not the Jewish caller. I did not find him shocking. As I said previously, where you hear a crazed Jew ranting on the radio, we hear an impassioned Jew being smacked down for telling the truth while shocking and offensive images are played. The fact that you think the caller’s behavior is shocking and the images are not not shows that you are the one who needs a reality check.

            Hello, anyone out there? Can you explain to CP why those images are beyond the pale and if he had any sensitivity at all he would never have posted the video? He seems unable to grasp this. And also what is beyond his ken is the fact that the one who latched onto this video to superimpose those horrifying images was an anti-Semite. He ‘s in good company, obviously.

          • Dina says:

            “You are the one creating anti-Semitism and then blaming the outside word [sic] for it.”

            This says it all. Keep talking, CP. I think it’s important for people here to see your character so they can judge your teachings and preachings by your attitude.

          • Dina says:

            “You are the one creating anti-Semitism and then blaming the outside word for it.”

            Right. It’s my fault that a Jewish cemetery near my home was vandalized, with over a hundred gravestones toppled over. Must be, because it’s near where I live, and I created the anti-Semitism that led to this act. I have no right to blame the vandals, only myself for creating and spreading anti-Semitism.

            So when people point out anti-Semitism, they are the true anti-Semites spreading hate, but those who actually commit acts of violence against the Jewish people are not spreading hate.

            So pointing out anti-Semitism makes people hate Jews. Interesting.

            Do you know, that is the vilest comment you ever said to me? And that is saying something.

            If that caller to the radio show makes you hate Jews, then you had precious little love for them to begin with.

        • Dina says:

          Oh, and by the way? It’s “talmidim,” not “Talmudim” and “Notzrim,” not “Netzarim.” And you can’t be a “Notzrim,” as it’s plural; you are a “Notzri,” in the singular.

          Also, while we’re on the grammar, it’s “would have” not “would of”; “could have” not “could of”; “should have” not “should of.”

          I don’t usually point out grammar mistakes because we all make them, especially typos. But since this is a consistent error on your part, and you being a college professor and all, I thought you might like to know.

          • LarryB says:

            Dina
            Thanks for clearing up the Nets vs the Nots. I really think he is one of the Nets based on what I read. He is certainly Not one of the Nots 🙂

          • CP says:

            Typically I’m typing on my phone while walking or quickly between classes or on a small Ipad. I wear glasses but often not when I should. I’m not concerned with spelling as often I cannot even see the letters. However I am concerned with content, which you ignore in favor of grammar and spelling errors. It has been said when you cant deal with content go for grammar and spelling.

          • Dina says:

            Don’t be silly, I’ve been spewing tons of content for months, ignoring your mistakes because you’ve already mentioned that you type on an iPad. Since you make this particular mistake one hundred percent consistently, I thought you might like to be corrected, as it cannot be attributed to your iPad. But oh well, some people can’t handle a little correction.

          • Southern Noahide says:

            There once was a man with a jot
            A tiny tittle of a thought.
            He coulda, shoulda, woulda been Nets
            But lo and behold he was Nots.

            Sorry, couldn’t resist. 🙂

          • Dina says:

            Funniest. Limerick. Ever.

          • Dina says:

            I wanted to be a Netzarim
            On top of a pair of cherubim
            ‘Cause one can be three
            Like the trinity
            Though that might get a bit confusin’.

          • Dina says:

            Sorry, it wasn’t a limerick. Mine is, though :).

          • Southern Noahide says:

            Dina, that was a good one!

            I felt sick in the stomach after looking at the video CP put up and needed something to feel better. Laughter really is a good medicine.

            That video was cruel. I could feel and hear the pain in the callers voice and for the maker of that video to insert those horrible images…..I’m at a loss for words.

            CP has sunk to a new low putting that one up.

          • Dina says:

            Thank you, me too! I couldn’t sleep last night. Every time I closed my eyes I saw the yowling cat with the Star of David yarmulke. Shudder.

            A good laugh helps!

          • Dina says:

            Also, Southern Noahide, I clicked on the link while my kids were around, not dreaming that CP would post something so dreadful. My teenaged daughter’s face turned white as a sheet; she kept saying, “That’s the most anti-Semitic thing I’ve ever seen.” My kids were all a little traumatized.

            Usually we don’t see this kind of stuff, and I’m grateful to live in a time and place in which anti-Semitism doesn’t affect our lives. Nevertheless, this is a stark reminder that we are tolerated, not loved, and that the peace and security we enjoy in this country are not guaranteed to last forever.

          • CP says:

            Dina,
            “…I thought you might like to be corrected,…”
            In light of your past overall reactions, it is possible I misjudged your motives, therefore I apologize and thank you for the correction, it is appreciated as I am not an English Professor: I teach Electrical Technology. Thank you for your professional help.

          • Dina says:

            You are most welcome!

          • CP says:

            Oy! we are doing little derogatory poems! It’s lunch time, can I play?

            Even if it be right and true –
            Want to stay a Jew, therefore;
            don’t believe anything new.

            Even if it be right and old –
            Can’t believe what’s not from the fold,
            fear being left alone and cold.

            I cling to the status quo,
            even though,
            I may not really know.

            I make it Us and Them
            avoiding having a truthful friend.

          • Dina says:

            CP, we were poking fun at a word you used, all in good fun. We did not even use the word “Christian.” You, on the other hand, using “Jews” as the subject of your poem, insulted all the Jewish people. Your little poem demonstrates how little love you actually have for Jews.

            You cannot conceive that Jews reject Jesus because they love God.

            You post a hateful video of a Jew giving an impassioned explanation of Jews’ suffering at the hands of Christians. While he is smacked down for telling the truth, the video shows revolting anti-Semitic images which recall the Nazi cartoons of Der Sturmer and even present day anti-Semitic cartoons. You do not apologize for this, instead telling us that this video proves that we are the ones who create anti-Semitism (vile!). Then you have the nerve to lecture us about poking fun, while slandering the whole Jewish people.

            You are shameless.

            But keep talking. Keep revealing the ugliness of your biases. Everyone needs to see this.

          • CP says:

            Dina, you actually misquoted me AND took my writing out of context all in order to twist things into anti-Semitism – shameful

          • Dina says:

            That’s what you always say, without ever, not once, showing me how I’ve distorted what you said.

            You’re the only one who thinks so. Everyone else is horrified by the things you are saying. Either retract them and apologize to the Jewish people, or stand by them and apologize to me for falsely charging me of misrepresenting you.

          • CP says:

            “That’s what you always say,”
            Cause that’s what you always do..
            ..you see anti-Semitism everywhere you look; when it isn’t there. imho, you’ve read one to many books on anti-Semitism and it is consuming you.

          • Dina says:

            CP, prove it.

            I’m not the only one here who sees your anti-Jewish attitudes for what they are.

  23. Alan says:

    CP,

    For some reason, I’m unable to post with my other account. This is the same Alan as before.

    Why would G-d allow such an unclear and mixed up mesorah (tradition passed down from generation to generation) about Jesus if it was critical for the world to know about him? We have a clear unbroken mesorah about Moses and clear unbroken mesorahs about hundreds of great Jewish leaders. Why wouldn’t Jesus also have a mesorah? You have admitted that there are lots of fraudulent words and passages in the NT. You admit that in order to piece together a picture of the real Jesus and his real message, you have to do a tremendous amount of detective work and at the end of all of the research and digging, the picture you have put together is just your best guess. If Jesus was so important why did G-d allow his message to get mixed up so badly and corrupted so badly in the NT? Why didn’t G-d preserve a more consistent and uncorrupted Jesus manuscript throughout the generations? G-d can do this. He did this with the 5 Books of Moses. The books of the Prophets and the Writings are also preserved with very few mistakes and corruptions. The Mishnah (0 – 200 CE) was preserved in tact with relatively few corruptions. The Talmud (200-500 CE) was also preserved with relatively few corruptions. If Jesus’s life and teachings were so important, why don’t we have such an uncorrupted text for him? The average Jew HAS a mesorah about Abraham, Moses, David, Solomon, the rabbis of the Mishnah and the rabbis of the Talmud and on and on, that he/she can follow confidently without needing to be an archeologist, an anthropologist and a historian to separate the wheat from the chaff. Did G-d set up the life and teachings of Jesus so that the average person can confidently tell the difference between what’s real and what’s not, between the wheat and chaff?

    Isaiah 53 – the simple meaning is about the Jewish nation who remained faithful to Hashem and His Torah. The deeper meaning is flexible and could possibly include Moshiach ben David, Moses, Elijah, Jeremiah, the Moshiach the son of Joseph to name just a few (according to various Midrashim). You say it could include the real historical Jesus. The reason faithful Jews don’t believe this is because whoever this verse includes has to be someone they have a clear mesorah for – a mesorah so easy to understand that even an average 10 year old boy and girl can confidently follow it. We don’t accept that it can be someone whose life and teachings are still in the process of being researched by archeologists, historians and anthropologists. It also has to be someone whose followers throughout the generations have a clear track record of being people who have loved their own people. The overwhelming followers of Jesus throughout the generations have been those who have not loved the Jewish people. Therefore, the specific individual that Isaiah 53 could be including along with the Jewish nation has to be someone whose students and followers have demonstrated love, patience and understanding for the Jewish people and who stick up for the Jewish people at the same time they are rebuking them. If Jesus was so important, why don’t the overwhelming majority of those who claim to be his followers have a proven track record of being loving, patient and understanding of the Jewish people? All of the greatest Jewish leaders have risked their lives to stick up for the Jewish people even while they were rebuking them. And if these leaders didn’t stick up for their people, they were not considered our greatest leaders. Hashem replaced Elijah with Elisha specifically because he didn’t stick up for the Jewish people before Hashem. The Jewish people don’t have a mesorah that Jesus or his followers fit this model of a Jewish leader that Isaiah 53 could be including.

    • Alan says:

      CP,

      If any of my ancestors were involved in the death of the real Jesus, and if the real Jesus was not a false prophet, and if he was not saying he was divine, and if he was not putting the lives of other Jews at risk by his preaching, then I regret and disavow my ancestors actions and if I could go back in time, I would stick up for him.

      • Dina says:

        That’s a lot of “ifs.” If my grandmother had wheels, she would be a trolley car, as they say.

      • Alan I would add – only if he was not guilty of any other capital crime. But if he was legally insane then even if he would have been guilty of a crime I would still have stuck up for him. And by the way, this entire discussion is only relevant in the highly improbable scenario that Jews were at all involved in his death.

        1000 Verses – a project of Judaism Resources wrote: >

    • Dina says:

      Alan, this is awesome!

    • CP says:

      Alan,
      Currently only have time to quickly respond to your first half, I’ll get to the rest when I have a chance. Btw, I would like to convey that I really enjoy our discussions. I think you have over estimated my position on the unreliability of the NT. I feel it is every bit as reliable as the Mishnah/Talmud. However it is Christian derived systematic theology (modern Christian oral tradition) divorced from foundational Jewish understandings which is the source of misunderstanding or of much of the perceived unreliability of the NT.

      To compare the reliability of the NT with the Torah is comparing apples and oranges. The Torah stands alone; in other words; what “standard” is there to compare it to? There is nothing; Torah IS the standard.

      Alan, so far I’ve found 3 Orthodox Rabbis who are able to understand and affirm the real teachings and mission of Yeshua when interpreted from a foundational Jewish understanding rather than the systematic theology of Christianity.

      Bottom line: Jews are correct to reject the Jesus of Christianity. However since they righty reject this Jesus, they never take a second look at the real historical Yeshua, thinking the case has been solved and the matter settled.

      For example; Do you think I promote Yeshua for observant Jews? How about for Gentiles unrelated to Abraham through Isaac? A yes answer to either highly suggests I’m terribly misunderstood and that you are probably viewing Yeshua through the eyes of Christianity.

      • RT says:

        IF the NT is rotten tomatoes for reliability, how do you know that the “real” Yeshua is not the fruit of your own imagination?

      • Alan says:

        CP,
        I’m sorry but I can’t handle answering so many questions. I’d rather do one thing at a time. You wrote – “I think you have over estimated my position on the unreliability of the NT. I feel it is every bit as reliable as the Mishnah/Talmud.”

        You admit the NT is not a reliable source for Jesus’ life and teachings. But the Mishnah and Talmud are reliable sources for the lives and teachings of the men (and women!) mentioned there. With the Mishnah, there’s no question that the people and teachings described there were actually said by those people. It’s an unbroken chain of many generations of students (who are named!) and who quote their teachers. The Talmud just picks up where the Mishnah left off in terms of students. Comparing the mesorah of the Mishna/Talmud with the NT is comparing apples and lemons.

        • CP says:

          Alan,
          “Comparing the mesorah of the Mishna/Talmud with the NT is comparing apples and lemons.”

          Only outside the historical Jewish context of Yeshua.
          Yeshua quoted pre written Talmudic teachings, there is an unbroken connection if you don’t try to trace through Christian systematic theology.

          • Alan says:

            CP,

            “Yeshua quoted pre written Talmudic teachings, there is an unbroken connection if you don’t try to trace through Christian systematic theology.”

            Where can we see this unbroken mesorah of what the real Jesus said?
            The foundation of the Mishnah and Talmud is that they cite their teachers by name, and the next generation does the same thing. This is the definition of unbroken. There is no such thing either oral or written for Jesus where Jesus cites his teachers all the way back to Moses, and where we have in our hands today the mesorah from Jesus’ students and their students.

      • Dina says:

        “Alan, so far I’ve found 3 Orthodox Rabbis who are able to understand and affirm the real teachings and mission of Yeshua when interpreted from a foundational Jewish understanding rather than the systematic theology of Christianity.”

        Give us their names and contact info.

        • CP says:

          Rabbi Jacob Emden
          Rabbi Harvey Falk
          Rabbi Shmuely Boteach

          • Dina says:

            Thanks!

            Shmuley Boteach is a joke. He calls himself Orthodox, but he has zero credibility among Orthodox Jews.

            Rabbi Emden did not believe Jesus was the messiah, that he died to atone for sins, that he was the supernatural son of God, etc. He wrote his letter to show Christians that they could follow Jesus’ teachings without persecuting Jews. He did not endorse him as a Jewish rabbi or leader, but said his teachings could have a positive impact on gentiles if they don’t twist them to mean persecuting the Jewish people. I see his letter more as a plea to Christians than an endorsement of Jesus for Jews. You are using Rabbi Emden to further your own agenda. Rabbi Emden was fiercely opposed to false messianic claimants. Based on all his teachings (looking at the big picture), it’s fair to say that he would turn over in his grave at your perverse use of his letter.

            That’s two down. I have to check out the third, as I never heard of him. But going by these two, you’ll have to do a little better.

            Why do you cite Orthodox rabbis? Do you think we have to agree with them? Because if that’s the case, there are many more Orthodox rabbis than three who do not accept any reason to accept Jesus as a legitimate Jewish leader and rabbi.

          • Dina says:

            On the other hand, if you think Orthodox rabbis have credibility, then why choose only the three out of thousands who appear to support your theology? I sniff confirmation bias.

          • Concerned Reader says:

            CP, these teachers all had an unproven hypothesis about Jesus, a personal opinion.

            None of these rabbis believed in him as the messiah.

            In fact, Rabbi Emden only wrote about Yeshua to warn the Church not to be fooled by Shabbatai Tzvi another claimant who was believed by his followers to be divine, to have instituted a new Torah, and to have FAILED to fulfilll clear prophecies.

            Saying that these men “understood” Jesus is misleading.

            None of the descendants of the Jerusalem Christians survive and self identify as the true Jewish bearers of Jesus’ halacha, so there is no unbroken chain.

            The only attempt at maintaining an unbroken chain was the list of the bishops of Jerusalem and Rome.

            The Bishopric in Jerusalem left the hands of Jesus’ family after the Jewish war in 135 ce when Markus became the 1st non Jewish bishop of Jerusalem, because Jews were forbidden from entering Jerusalem.

            Jesus’ relatuves were killed ie the desposyni “those belonging to the lord,” are gone.

            The Jewish followers of “the way,” died off completely by the 4th century CE. So, Jesus’ original Jewish message did not survive antiquity, and his movement lost its roots.

            The message of Pharisees like Gamaliel did survive however, and people can trace descent to them.

            G-d said his nation would never pass away, (and even Paul called Israel the natural tree and root that bears those who want to cleave to G-d.)

            The Jewish authors of the NT knew that the standard of Torah was the maintaining of Israel as a set apart covenant people didtinct from other nations. Jesus’ movement lost that distinction.

          • CP says:

            Dina,
            “Why do you cite Orthodox rabbis? ”

            The reason you know not the answer to this question is because you haven’t been listening —–perhaps too busy accusing me of anti-Semitism?

          • CP says:

            Concerned Reader,
            I don’t have time for a long answer, maybe later, but the short of it is; Christians are doing what they not ought to be doing and Jews are doing what they are supposed to be doing.

          • CP says:

            ” Jews are doing what they are supposed to be doing.”
            Except for one thing in particular – Spreading Torah to the Nations; looking for the lost sheep and bringing them back.

          • Dina says:

            CP, please cite a specific commandment in the Torah that we are obligated to spread Torah to the nations and bring back the lost sheep.

          • Alan says:

            One of the ways the Jewish people have been a light to the nations is by sharing the Torah with anyone in the world who is interested. If they’re interested in being a righteous Gentile, we’ll help them; if they are interested in being a righteous convert, we’ll help them. We are obligated to visit the sick of the non-Jews, give them charity and bury their dead (if there’s no one else to bury them) because there is a commandment in the Torah to “walk in His ways” which means to emulate Hashem’s conduct in the world. “Hashem is good to all and His compassion is upon all of His handiwork” (Psalm 145:9) and because “Her (the Torah’s) ways are ways of pleasantness and all her path’s are peace” (Proverbs 3:17). We have an obligation to try to emulate these ways. There are so many Jewish charity organizations, I believe more per capita then any other nation (check it out, I think I’m correct) and so many of them help Jew and Gentile alike. This is all a way of influencing people by our actions and not by our words, and this is really the best way to bring back lost sheep – to inspire by example.

          • CP says:

            “Dina says:
            March 21, 2017 at 4:04 pm
            On the other hand, if you think Orthodox rabbis have credibility, then why choose only the three out of thousands who appear to support your theology? I sniff confirmation bias”

            Dina, how long did it take for you to come to Torah?

          • Dina says:

            Irrelevant. Answer the question honestly if you can.

          • CP says:

            Dina, there were no lost sheep when Torah was written. You have to look in the Prophets and Writings

          • Dina says:

            Give me a commandment from a prophet, then.

          • CP says:

            “Dina says:
            March 21, 2017 at 5:44 pm
            Irrelevant. Answer the question honestly if you can.”

            You just missed your answer

        • CP says:

          Isaiah 66:19

          • Alan says:

            CP,

            I found this short essay by Yosef ben Shlomo Hakohen a”h, a talmid of Rav Aharon Feldman and and author of a Feldheim book “The Universal Jew” –

            http://www.shemayisrael.com/publicat/hazon/tzedaka/chassid.htm

          • CP says:

            Thanks Alan, great article and web site. Where does the attitude of not proselytizing come from? Is it written down somewhere?

          • Alan says:

            The Jewish style of proselytizing is one of the most important commandments in the whole Torah and is the raison d’etre of the Jew. The mitzvah is called Kiddush Hashem (making the Name of G-d special in the eyes of the world). The commandment is mainly by example, not words. Words given over before the teacher is worthy of teaching only damage both the teacher and the students. The Jewish people and the world as a whole have not been mature enough spiritually to do this without damaging each other. So our main job before Moshiach comes is kiddush Hashem – shining Hashem’s light – by example. When it comes closer to the time of Moshiach and after Moshiach comes, we’ll be able to do a lot more of the talking kind of proselytzing to the nations.

          • CP says:

            Alan,
            This is an answer I wasn’t expecting, however I am appreciative. If I’m hearing you correctly; there is no formal written commandment not to proselytize – as in searching out the lost tribes? I’m not sure this is what God wants. It reminds me of Cain’s words; “am I my brothers keeper?”

            It is my understanding this was the teaching of Beit Shammai around the second Temple period, aren’t we supposed to be following the teachings of Beit Hillel? Doesn’t Beit Hillel advocate proselytizing?

            Also you’ve written; “after Moshiach comes,we’ll be able to do a lot more of the talking kind of proselytzing to the nations”

            I thought after Moshiach comes, everyone will know God from the least to the greatest and no man would have to teach his neighbor?

          • Alan says:

            CP,

            There is no prohibition against doing outreach and teaching non-Jews the Noahide laws. But we have to use common sense before we jump into it. I also don’t know if there’s an explicit prohibition against proselytizing non-Jews to become Jews. I think the best we can do here is to be a good example of what it means to be a Jew, and to let them know that it is an option if it is truly the right decision for them. But this takes a lot of wisdom to help them make the right decision.

            Does Beit Hillel advocate proactively seeking out converts? I don’t think so. I think he advocated making converts reactively. Again, the most effective proselytizing is kiddush Hashem – teaching all human beings by example and this is a Torah commandment.

            I think there are different stages until we get to the stage when everyone will know G-d without one person needing to teach another. There’s a stage when the non-Jews will approach the Jews and say, “Let us go with you for we have heard that G-d is with you” which implies a teaching relationship. And there’s another verse that says, “Many peoples will come and say, “Come, let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the temple of the God of Jacob. He will teach us his ways, so that we may walk in his paths.” The law will go out from Zion, the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.” This also implies a teaching relationship.

          • Dina says:

            God promised to unite the lost tribes with Judah. Likewise, He promised to punish our enemies. CP thinks God requires our help with the former, but I doubt he would apply this notion to the latter. God does not our help to fulfill His promises to us, and we have no business trying to force His hand.

            We do not search out the lost tribes, and we do not make war upon our enemies.

          • Eleazar says:

            “It reminds me of Cain’s words; “am I my brothers keeper?”
            It is my understanding this was the teaching of Beit Shammai around the second Temple period, aren’t we supposed to be following the teachings of Beit Hillel?”

            Jesus, a supposed Beit Hillel advocate said the following:

            Matthew 23:15- ” Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.”

            You have averred that as a Beit Hillel Jesus’ scathing disrespect, condemnations and insults were directed only at the Shammais, but then you say Shammais did not proselytize. This text has Jesus disrespecting, condemning and insulting active proselytizers. So….

          • Alan says:

            Well said Reb Eleazar! I guess the Christianized Jesus (NT Jesus), as opposed to the Jewish Jesus (the so-called historical Jesus), was upset at anyone who didn’t believe in him. He didn’t let you slide just because you were a Beit Hillel.

          • CP says:

            Eleazar, the two schools coexisted. When Hillel students left (to prosetylize?) Shammai took control. You assume there were clean cut lines and no middle; that’s really not reality.

          • Dina says:

            This whole Hillel-Shammai thing CP has going on here is on very, very shaky historical grounds.

          • CP says:

            Alan,
            Would you mind giving this a listen if you have time and tell me what you think?

            https://archive.org/details/YeshuaAsMashiachBenYosefpart4

          • Alan says:

            CP,

            If there were a trustworthy mesorah for Jesus that I could hang even a small hat on I would do it. But because I can’t go on anything written in the NT, I don’t have any data with which to start a consideration of whether or not he was Messiah son of Josef. Also, from the little I do now about Messiah son of Yosef, his job is not to bring back the 10 tribes and unite them with the House of Judah. And then I would have to fantasize that Messiah son of Yosef will need a second coming to do the job, since he didn’t do anything the first time around. I’m sorry but I will have to decline listening to this.

          • Dina says:

            More distortion from CP. He recently did the same thing to Jeremiah 3, reading it to mean that since God divorced Israel He cannot take her back. Now he’s isolating a verse from Isaiah 66 to mean that the prophet is teaching us that we are obligated to spread Torah to the nations.

            CP should read the whole chapter. He might then discover that this is an end-of-days prophecy, part of a larger description. It is not an exhortation by the prophet to all Jews from his generation onward to spread Torah to the nations.

          • CP says:

            Allan, I won’t bother you about it anymore, but I Guarantee you it’s not what you think, so I’ll leave it alone hoping perhaps you’d listen to about the first five or ten minutes for a Orthodox Jewish opinion
            — ANYONE else care to help me out here? —-

          • CP says:

            “Dina says:
            March 21, 2017 at 11:11 pm
            This whole Hillel-Shammai thing CP has going on here is on very, very shaky historical grounds.”

            Dina, granted the particulars are on shaky ground. However Yeshua teaching the same teachings as Hillel and then castigating those who taught the same, doesn’t make sense, unless they were teaching hypocritically. Which may of been the case, but not always the case assuming he interacted with a broad section of Pharisees. One of the major draw backs of the NT is determining which religious leaders Yeshua was addressing.

            Sure if a person is anti-Yeshua they will assume Yeshua is speaking to all Jews. But if a person does some careful and prayerful study, things start coming into focus.

          • Dina says:

            “But if a person does some careful and prayerful study, things start coming into focus.”

            It would have been more honest to say: “But if a person does some careful and prayerful study, they will start to see things my way.”

            How do you know that Rabbi B., Larry, Jim, Con, Alan, RT, cflat7, to name just a few on this blog, who disagree with your conclusions, did not do careful and prayerful study? Oh, and me.

            I’m glad you at least admit that this whole picture (that is so important to you for some reason) is on very shaky historical grounds.

          • Concerned Reader says:

            CP, Judaism does not emphasize proselytism because it is a process proven historically not to work. Herod was a convert remember? Great guy right?

            A person who doesnt embrace the commandments willingly as part of a genuine life choice will not be following for the right reasons, and might fracture the people.

            In second temple times, Jews were content to have gentiles remain gentiles, but be G-d fearing, abstaining from idols, blood, and sexual immorality, because there are gentiles like that in Torah, not least Abraham.

            One of Christianity’s and Iskam’s greatest flaws is in its need to make converts at all costs.

            Christians have Christmas trees, Yule logs, bunnies, Coke corporation’s red rebbe, and eggs precisely because they emphasized quantity over fruit.

            Cultural norms of conqured peoples pushed aside the Bible’s mitzvot all in the name of conversion to Christianity. Look up Santaria to see what I mean.

            Have you noticed that It happens quite often that a Christian street preacher will come up to you and say, “do you love Jesus?” If You say yes, usually he is gone. Beyond your yes, he isnt interested.

            He doesnt care about the fruit, just about wether you are on Jesus’ team.

            When I believed in Jesus I did not try to convert Jews.

            I actually had a buddy named Sam who said, “I think I’m a believer in Jesus, but I’m Jewish.”

            I told him to go talk to his rabbi, and not to convert, because I asked myself: “will it serve my friend better to become like all the gentile Christians I know who no nothing about how Jesus actually lived or the commands he kept?

            Or will my friend (who is a member of Jesus’ own people,) be better served hearing the same Torah that Jesus heard when he was a kid?

            I told him that if Judaism was enough for Jesus, then it should be enough for him.

            As far as I was concerned, the NT taught me not to worry about making Jews into Christians, or making them Jesus centered, because how did we hear about him in the 1st place?

            Were Jesus’ disciples made into better Jews just for belief in Jesus? FYI the answer according to Jesus’ own constant rebukes of his students indicates that belief in him accomplished very little.

            You say the Church brought the world the written Torah. No. The world already had the written Torah, and a place in the Jewish worldview.

            There were thousands of gentiles going to Synagogue who were not converts, but G-d fearing gentiles who were not circumcised.

            Why did Jews not proseletyze later on? Church Canon law forbade Jews to convert anyone. So, the Church gave a watered down Torah, and forcefully stopped Jews from practicing their religion.

            Your Netzarim Jewish Jesus has only been around since about 1970. Before that, there was just the Christian Christ of 2000 years of orthodox Christian tradition. Orthodoxy is the only Christianity that can actually trace itself back. They are the only visible chain of Jesus’ movement.

          • Alan says:

            Concerned Reader,

            Thanks for this great post!

            I have some questions on your following comments –

            “In second temple times, Jews were content to have gentiles remain gentiles, but be G-d fearing, abstaining from idols, blood, and sexual immorality, because there are gentiles like that in Torah, not least Abraham.”

            The Torah actually commands us to let them live among us and to support them – it’s one of the 248 positive commandments (thou shalt as opposed to thou shalt not) – Exodos 25:35 –

            And if thy brother be waxen poor, and his means fail with thee; then thou shalt uphold him: as a stranger and a settler shall he live with thee. וְכִי-יָמוּךְ אָחִיךָ, וּמָטָה יָדוֹ עִמָּךְ–וְהֶחֱזַקְתָּ בּוֹ, גֵּר וְתוֹשָׁב וָחַי עִמָּךְ.
            This settler (the toshav) is the uncircumcised Gentile who has accepted upon themselves to keep the Noahide laws. The rabbis of the Talmud teach the “shall live with thee” means that we are commanded not to merely tolerate them but to support them and help them make a living.

            “Were Jesus’ disciples made into better Jews just for belief in Jesus? FYI the answer according to Jesus’ own constant rebukes of his students indicates that belief in him accomplished very little.”

            I thought Jesus teaches in the NT that without belief in him (in Jesus) one can’t even get out of the starting gate to even attempt to be a good person, and that belief in him was the ONLY way to go.

            “Orthodoxy is the only Christianity that can actually trace itself back. They are the only visible chain of Jesus’ movement.”

            You wrote before that there is no unbroken chain of transmission from teacher to student starting with Jesus. So in what sense do you mean that Christian Orthodoxy is the only visible chain of Jesus’ movement?

          • Dina says:

            Con, I am much moved by what you wrote here, especially your interaction with your Jewish friend.

          • CP says:

            Concerned Reader,
            Excellent moment as usual. I’d like to respond to some points below.

            “CP, Judaism does not emphasize proselytism because it is a process proven historically not to work. Herod was a convert remember? Great guy right?”
            — it is my understanding that Herod’s parents or grand parents were forced to convert in a previous mass forced conversion, similar to what Islam does today. Admittedly I’d need would need revisit this to be sure of my facts —-

            “A person who doesnt embrace the commandments willingly as part of a genuine life choice will not be following for the right reasons, and might fracture the people.
            In second temple times, Jews were content to have gentiles remain gentiles, but be G-d fearing, abstaining from idols, blood, and sexual immorality, because there are gentiles like that in Torah, not least Abraham.”
            — isn’t this EXCATLY the purpose of Acts 15? However it is interpreted (perverted) by today’s Church into the abrogation of the Torah because they lack the Jewish understanding behind the Jerusalem Council decision. —-

            “One of Christianity’s and Iskam’s greatest flaws is in its need to make converts at all costs.”
            —AGREED! even many of today’s Christians complain of “easy believism” —-

            “I actually had a buddy named Sam who said, “I think I’m a believer in Jesus, but I’m Jewish.””
            — I see nothing wrong with this as long as he stays Jewish and does not become like the Gentiles. But Jewish people make this almost impossible and some will even kick him out of the Synogouge. Jews are always blaming Christians for Jews becoming like Gentiles when they are just as much to blame by cutting them off. Can’t they acknowledge a understanding of Yeshua that agrees with Torah while keeping control of their religion? —-

            “As far as I was concerned, the NT taught me not to worry about making Jews into Christians, or making them Jesus centered, because how did we hear about him in the 1st place?”
            —Agreed—-

            “You say the Church brought the world the written Torah. No. The world already had the written Torah, ……”
            — I’d disagree here – unless I’m misunderstanding you? —-

            “There were thousands of gentiles going to Synagogue who were not converts, but G-d fearing gentiles who were not circumcised.”
            — They have been kicking them out and cutting them off for 1800 years if they even had a scent of Yeshua on their clothes! —-

          • Alan says:

            CP,

            “— They have been kicking them out and cutting them off for 1800 years if they even had a scent of Yeshua on their clothes! —-”

            One of the kosher reasons a person might get kicked out is if they were heretics or apikorsim (for example, they added or subtracted commandments; or if they denigrated and abused kosher Torah scholars such as kosher rabbis from Beit Hillel or Beit Shammai). Do you have any historical proof outside of the NT, that Jesus and his followers didn’t add or subtract from the Torah and didn’t denigrate a whole group of kosher Torah scholars? I have such proof that they did. Do you have proof that they didn’t?

          • Dina says:

            “They have been kicking them out and cutting them off for 1800 years if they even had a scent of Yeshua on their clothes!”

            Ahem. Since Christianity took the upper hand, when have Christians flocked to Jewish synagogues only to be turned away?

            CP sneers at us for playing the victim, then makes up a false victimhood status for the actual oppressors of the Jews. Unbelievable.

          • Alan says:

            I think CP believes that they are the victims twice – we kick them out for no legitimate reason and so we force them to hate us when all they really want is to love us (we’re stealing their love from them).

          • Alan says:

            Correction – I meant “trustworthy evidence” not proof.

          • Dina says:

            “Can’t they acknowledge a understanding of Yeshua that agrees with Torah while keeping control of their religion?”

            I’d like you to conduct a thought experiment. Please try to imagine that Jesus is a false prophet as per Deuteronomy 13 and 18, teaching avodah zarah, and who therefore deserves the death penalty–and those who follow him are spreading his false teachings.

            This may be impossible for you to do. But suppose that were the case. Pretend you are a religious Jew who believes this to be the case.

            From that perspective, would Jews be right to exclude his followers from synagogues?

            Also, a question: You wrote, “Jews are always blaming Christians for Jews becoming like Gentiles when they are just as much to blame by cutting them off.” What do you mean by this? I do not recall Jews “always” faulting Christians for Jews becoming like the gentiles. I have railed against Christian anti-Semitism, but not this. Care to explain?

          • RT says:

            CR “One of Christianity’s and Iskam’s greatest flaws is in its need to make converts at all costs.”

            Yes, I am sure glad it is not the case for Judaism. Imaging a gentile who becomes aware of the truth of Judaism. Deciding the next day to convert and follow all the commandment would break many families. Nevertheless, Jesus thought it’s better to break those family and “enter the kingdom of god”. As Jesus said “”If anyone comes to me and does not hate father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters–yes, even their own life–such a person cannot be my disciple.”

            I hear of many unconverted souls leaving their religious spouse because of that exact verse. Many Messianic force their Torah observance to their spouse, or at least, it might be quite disturbing for a newly enlighten messianic to force Shabbat observance on his non-practicing spouse.

        • CP says:

          Dina writes;
          “….. when have Christians flocked to Jewish synagogues only to be turned away?”

          — I have first hand experience with this – it happens and has happened.—-

          “CP sneers at us for playing the victim, then makes up a false victimhood status for the actual oppressors of the Jews. Unbelievable.”

          — I haven’t nor do I play the victim; I see it as counter productive behavior to the kind of person I want to be anf quite frankly find it personally distasteful. However the fact that Jews have kicked Christians out of the synagogue is not unbelievable, it is fact and still happens today.—-

          • Alan says:

            CP,

            When any human being comes to an orthodox shul (any of the dozens upon dozens I’ve been to) and they behave themselves, they do not get kicked out. I have seen this many times over the years. I have never seen a non-Jew get kicked out. However, if they are coming to missionize or they start calling out in Jesus’ name, they would probably be asked to leave (I have never seen this happen). If an orthodox Jew doesn’t behave themselves because they are causing some kind of disturbance, they will also be asked to leave. This I have seen, it’s very rare, but I’ve seen it.

          • Dina says:

            CP, I was responding to your statement: ““They have been kicking them out and cutting them off for 1800 years if they even had a scent of Yeshua on their clothes!”

            This general statement implies that this is a regular occurrence. You aren’t a lot of people, are you? I’ve never seen this happen, and I don’t know anyone who has ever seen this happen. Just because it happened to you that doesn’t mean it isn’t an extremely rare occurrence. In fact it is so rare as to be completely irrelevant to any argument and not worth mentioning in any way, shape, or form.

            Therefore, your statement above is another false charge.

            Are you able or willing to respond to my thought-experiment challenge?

          • CP says:

            Dina,
            ” In fact it is so rare as to be completely irrelevant to any argument and not worth mentioning in any way, shape, or form.’

            It wasn’t “irrelevant” to me.

            Your thought experiment: Of course I agree with you, how could I not? But let’s tweak it a little bit, ok? Suppose a person does zero proselytizing, believing Yeshua (not as God) and wanting to keep Torah because this is what they see the Bible teaching. Should they be allowed to stay? Before you answer – even R’B has stated quite empathically they shouldn’t be allowed as a member.

          • Alan says:

            CP,
            I am not answering for Dina. I just want to ask you did this shul not even let you pray there, let alone become a member? How did they find out you believe in Jesus?

          • Dina says:

            This isn’t about you, this is about the truth. Your experiences, forgive me, while important to you personally, are meaningless in terms of the big picture.

            I’m in a hurry now, so God willing I’ll discuss the thought experiment later or tomorrow.

          • Dina says:

            I lived in a small community for a few years that boasted three Orthodox shuls. A member of the community was kicked out of all three shuls because he had committed adultery.

            If Jews believe that Jewish Jesus followers are committing the sin of avodah zarah (even Unitarians), why should they give them special treatment? Synagogues have traditionally kicked out those who commit any one of the three cardinal sins

          • Jim says:

            A cineaste once wished to join a book club. He did not like to read and seldom did so, but whenever a film he liked particularly well was based on a book, he would wish to discuss it with other enthusiasts. But when he attempted to bring his love of a movie into the book club, it turned out to be a disaster.

            He asked what others thought of the crane shot at the beginning of the film, giving a sense of scope and grandeur, but none of the bibliophiles had seen the film and could offer no opinion on the shot. He began to speak of the soundtrack of the film and how evocative it was. Obviously, though, the novel had no musical accompaniment. He began to feel frustrated that the book club members had no appreciation for the work under discussion.

            Things became heated when he wished to discuss his favorite scene. He was horror-struck to discover that it did not even appear in the book. The newcomer told the book club members that until they saw the movie, they could not even understand the book. He could not fathom how anyone would read the book without seeing the film. Eventually, one of the members told the cineaste that perhaps he should join a film club, inasmuch as that was where his interests lay. He told the cineaste that this was a place for discussion of books and not film.

            In a huff, the film buff left. He declared the book club to be nothing more than a bunch of snobs.

            Jim

          • RT says:

            Yes, I agree with Dina, the topic has gone back and forth from wishy-washy matters, while you still avoid giving any explanation why your historical Yeshua is important at all whatsoever.

          • CP says:

            RT, Here is the reason if you care to listen. Would also enjoy any feed back you’d care to offer.
            https://archive.org/details/YeshuaAsMashiachBenYosefpart4

          • Alan says:

            I listened to the first 10 minutes. The man giving the class has a very nice voice. But I’m giving it two thumbs down because he bases his hypothesis on cherry-picked NT passages. He has to use the NT because he has almost nothing else to go on. He’s reverse engineering a Jesus messiah son of Joseph largely from NT passages.

          • CP says:

            Alan,
            No one even knew until one day a lady asked me point blank out of the clear blue sky, after that I was ostracized. Didn’t set foot in another synagogue for over 20 years.

            Jim,
            Great story, but what if the cineaste was there because they wanted to start reading books?

          • Alan says:

            CP,
            I don’t think the lady was a prophet. Do you appreciate how wary Jews are of Christians who infiltrate in order to steal Jewish souls? Do you appreciate how almost all Jews think anyone who REALLY believes in Jesus wants to steal their souls (or kill them) because that’s been the reality of what Christians have wanted to do to Jews for 2000 years. Do you think this lady or anyone else in the shul understood how rare a bird you were? If you really wanted to daven there and worship Hashem like the orthodox Jews there you would have needed to explain to that lady and write an open letter to the shul how you’re not a regular Christian, that you’re confused about what you believe at this point in your life, that you don’t believe Jesus is god or Moshiach and you like Jews and want to see what orthodox Jews have to offer and that you will not speak to anyone in shul about Jesus. You couldn’t have expected them to overlook your admission that you’re a Christian without qualifying that admission. Maybe if you qualified your admission, they would have worked with you.

            In my community we have a registered sex offender (as far as we know, he never actually physically abused any children, but what the things he did were still horrific). Even though he is now a baal teshuva, learns a lot of Torah, is a pleasant person, holds down a good job and has no contact with kids, he is not allowed in the main shul or anywhere on the grounds of the main shul. The main shul is where all the children are. He is allowed to go to one small shul which just has adults. This is where I met him. I didn’t find out about his past until a few months after I met him and we were already acquainted with each other. I was devastated when I learned the truth. From what I’ve seen of him, I believe he is a true baal teshuva. I will talk to him. But most people in the community will have nothing to do with him. Some are civil to him while others are not. I understand those who are not. Do you understand those who are angry with him and will not allow him into their homes to pray on Friday nights? I might not agree with them, but I understand them. The rav of my community told me that he also believes he is a baal teshuva but that I still shouldn’t leave alone with my children. Do you hear what I’m trying to get across to you? You really need to develop ways of increasing your understanding for how the Jewish people feel about the Jesus the world knows (not the speculative historical sketch of Jesus that only a few elites like you IMAGINE you know) and why they feel threatened by those who are the most in love with Jesus and come to pray and socialize with them. If you want to live like a Jew – a Beit Hillel Jew, the kind of Jew you believe Jesus was – then you have to develop more understanding and empathy for the other Beit Hillel Jews who are alive today.

          • Dina says:

            Jews don’t approach other ostensible Jews and suddenly ask about their messianic beliefs.

          • cflat7 says:

            CP, “Suppose a person does zero proselytizing, believing Yeshua (not as God) and wanting to keep Torah because this is what they see the Bible teaching. Should they be allowed to stay?”

            I think it would be important to know what “believing Yeshua” entailed.

          • CP says:

            Alan,
            Thanks for the great post. You are right on many points. Perhaps I should of made my intentions known, however 25 years ago I was pretty naive and clueless about what I was getting into and hadn’t thought anything out – I just wanted be there and soak it in. It eventually worked out at another synagogue over 20 years later, however there are sometimes tensions with some, but overall I feel welcome and at home.

            Dina,
            “Jews don’t approach other ostensible Jews and suddenly ask about their messianic beliefs.”

            Yeah, unless they are nosey old women. Btw, I never claimed to be an ostensible Jew, even so, this community is so small and devoid of Jews anyone new would draw attention. But I would like to thank you for speaking for every Jew in every community world wide.

          • CP says:

            Dina,
            “I lived in a small community for a few years that boasted three Orthodox shuls. A member of the community was kicked out of all three shuls because he had committed adultery.”

            Wow! That’s pretty impressive. I’m curious though; Is there no forgiveness for this person? Or are they condemned forever?

          • Dina says:

            They demanded a confession and public apology, at which point he would have been welcomed back had he done so.

          • Dina says:

            But that’s a distraction from my thought experiment, CP. How do you answer the question?

          • RT says:

            CP, I have heard of many messianic attending an orthodox shull. I have heard of some actually saying that they are followers of Yeshua. They have not been kicked out. Maybe you think it is unusual, and maybe you are right. But, I think that the Rabbi saw that the guy was willing to listen and see if what he believes makes sense or not. I don’t see that with you, and maybe you comments showed that?

          • Alan says:

            RT,
            I believe what you’re saying.

            Anyone who behaves himself including a Christian would not be asked to leave any normal orthodox shul. I wouldn’t daven in a shul that kicked any decent person out just because they were Christian or any other religion. I have never seen such a shul, but if I did, I would protest their behavior and stop going there.

            Jim,
            I loved your story about the film lover and the book lovers. I thought it was a super excellent parable of what we’re talking about. Thank you!

          • CP says:

            Alan & RT,
            FYI, I wasn’t verbally “asked’ to leave, however it was made known I was no longer welcome and I didn’t want to impose, so choose to be respectful and leave. The odd thing was is it lined up perfectly with what the NT prophesied would happen.

          • Dina says:

            The odd thing is that your current situation doesn’t line up with the NT’s prophecy. By the way, the first situation doesn’t line up, since apparently you weren’t kicked out as you had originally implied.

            The hardest thing with dialoguing with you is that one never knows when to believe you.

            Also, it’s not a prophecy if it comes true only sometimes. That’s called a guess.

          • Dina says:

            Do you want to answer the challenge or continue to chase distractions?

          • RT says:

            CP, I think they might have been right not to want you around (with all due respect). You stubbornly believe in Yeshua and are unwilling to listen to any opposition against him. I guess that you mentioned him, otherwise, how would you know that you were unwelcome because you believe in Jesus?

            What was your point of going to a synagogue in the first place if the rabbi is not a follower of the “living” torah anyway? You are full of double standards… You know in the bottom of your conscience that the Jews are right, and only tries so hard to prove yourself right without any success!

          • CP says:

            Dina, you write;
            “The hardest thing with dialoguing with you is that one never knows when to believe you”

            Dina, I know firsthand from your paraphrasing me, you feel this way because there is a disconnect from what I say and what you hear.

          • Dina says:

            You’re the only one who hears the disconnect, as it happens. Others hear understand you the way I do. Will you answer the challenge or continue to chase distractions?

          • Alan says:

            Dina,
            What I am still wondering about is how “calling in the name of Yeshua” fits in with CP’s belief that Jesus was a regular kosher Beit Hillel Pharisee. I don’t think any kind of Pharisee ever called on the name of any human being as prayer because, I believe, it’s against the Torah. Maybe one of the scholars here can let us know how Torah law views calling on the name of an invisible force other than the name of Hashem.

            CP, if the most exciting thing to you is that a Beit Hillel Pharisee would make it his life’s mission to establish a movement to spread the 7 Noahide laws around the world, we already have Beit Hillel Pharisees alive today who devote themselves to this mission. Why not learn with them and help them?

          • Dina says:

            Alan, it’s avodah zarah, pure and simple, a fact CP refuses to acknowledge. Any type of worship not taught at Sinai or that our fathers did not know is avodah zarah.

          • Alan says:

            Well I’m still hoping he will acknowledge it. I don’t think it really goes together very well with spreading the Noahide laws to the Gentiles.

          • Alan says:

            Also, there might be opinions that hold that for a Jew it’s avodah zarah but not for a Gentile.

          • RT says:

            Let see: CP said Christians have been kicked out of synagogue because they follow Jesus:
            — They have been kicking them out and cutting them off for 1800 years if they even had a scent of Yeshua on their clothes! —-

            CP has been kicked out of a Synagogue:
            — I have first hand experience with this – it happens and has happened.—-
            — I haven’t nor do I play the victim; I see it as counter productive behavior to the kind of person I want to be anf quite frankly find it personally distasteful. However the fact that Jews have kicked Christians out of the synagogue is not unbelievable, it is fact and still happens today.—

            CP plays the victim:
            –” In fact it is so rare as to be completely irrelevant to any argument and not worth mentioning in any way, shape, or form.’
            It wasn’t “irrelevant” to me.—

            CP has not been kicked out, but decided to leave by himself.
            –FYI, I wasn’t verbally “asked’ to leave, however it was made known I was no longer welcome and I didn’t want to impose, so choose to be respectful and leave.—

            I am kind of lost…

          • Dina says:

            RT, thanks for the validation. I’m getting so tired sifting through CP’s lies.

          • Alan says:

            I don’t think he’s intentionally lying. It seems to me that he uses words a little differently than others do, a little less precisely and less literally. I know good people like this. It drives me nuts sometimes, but they are just not as precise with their words as they should be for who they are speaking to. It’s maddening sometimes, but it doesn’t mean it’s intentional.

          • CP says:

            Alan, Dina, RT;

            Alan, Thank you for pointing out your observations. Yes, I am more of a conceptual thinker and you’re absolutely right; I need to be more precise with my words, especially here. However this can be difficult when people hold to slightly different meanings for the same word. I will work on this. Sorry, the in Yeshua’s name thing fell through the cracks. I consider it the same kind of thing as saying the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

            RT, It would be wrong of you to judge my behavior at shul by my behavior here. I specifically use this venue (anti -missionary Blog) to work through things so I DON’T have to do it there; that would be very disrespectful.

            Dina, It would be wrong of me not to tell you that I feel you are very rude to me; (calling me a liar and such) thereby giving you the opportunity to make teshuva. I understand you are very zealous, I forgive you.
            What is this “challenge” you want me to answer? I already answered your “thought experiment”, perhaps you missed it?
            avodah zarah is only for Jews since Gentiles weren’t at Sinai. However, I’m unclear how you define ” avodah” and “zarah” from the Torah. For example; if a person does not give Yeshua the worship that is ONLY due Hashem; then I think you’re comparing apples and oranges.

          • Dina says:

            CP, if you tell a lie I will call you out on it. Your defense of imprecision falls flat. You have posted false claims, false charges, and false statements; Jim and I have called you out on it, but instead of apologizing you ignore, change the subject, or double down.

            You recently charged the Jewish people with the continuing practice of kicking Christians out of synagogues. You said you know this to be true because this happened to you. One case does not a practice make. Yet later you said that you left the synagogue of your own accord. Then, brazenly, you claimed this fulfilled an NT prophecy, although not only were you not kicked out of the first one, but were welcomed to the second one.

            To say that you were kicked out and then that you left of your own accord is not being imprecise. It’s lying.

            To claim that this is a continuing practice going on for 1800 years because it happened to you once (which you then said it didn’t) is not being imprecise. It’s lying.

            You did not apologize to the Jewish people for this false charge.

            You have posted false Talmudic quote after false Talmudic quote and false rabbinic quote after false rabbinic quote, never apologizing but simply changing the subject.

            You accused me of condemning Christians for not keeping the Oral Torah and tying knots on Shabbos, a ridiculous and obviously false charge since Christians are not obligated in Jewish law and also since I’ve repeatedly stated that I’m fine with Christians worshiping as they please (your exact words: “People’s lives and families have forever been changed for the better, they worship God, read Torah, keep the Ten Words and the Noahide laws. Yet you condemn them because they don’t keep your Oral Torah and tie a knot on the Sabbath?”). I pressed you repeatedly to retract the charge yet you refused.

            You recently distorted Jeremiah 3 to mean that God can’t take Israel back after divorcing her (and taking that further, you concluded that therefore God needs Jesus to bring Israel back and Israel needs Jesus to get back to God). When the distortion was shown to you, you did not admit your error.

            I showed you that you cherry picked a verse in Psalm 22; you changed the subject. You have never disavowed cherry picking as an intellectually dishonest exercise, instead defending it with the weak argument that you can isolate a verse and apply many meanings to it because of “multiple fulfillments.”

            You whine that I distort your words even as I post exact quotes from your own comments, never explaining what I have distorted and never apologizing for your ugly and hate-filled comments against the Jewish people that make anything horrible you think I’ve written seem sweet and gentle by comparison. And that no context in the world could ever justify. I wrote about this at length here:

            https://yourphariseefriend.wordpress.com/2017/02/27/deadly-parable-excerpt-from-supplement/#comment-34514

            The problem with you is that you forget half the things you say and I don’t.

            If you want me to stop calling you out on your lies and regain my respect, then there is only one thing you have to do. Be meticulous with the truth. Be honest with others, but most of all be honest with yourself.

          • Alan says:

            CP,
            What Dina wrote is very reasonable. I was giving you the benefit of the doubt when you said you were kicked out even though you weren’t literally kicked out. But I agree with everything else Dina wrote. You haven’t apologized at all for your hurtful and untrue comments. You just ignore what we say and change the subject. And neither have you acknowledged your mistaken understanding of passages in the Tanach. You just ignore what we show you and change the subject. We would much rather you say you still disagree with us then to just ignore us.

          • Dina says:

            CP, I asked you, continuing my thought experiment, why you think followers of Jesus should get special treatment? Why should someone who from the Jewish perspective is guilty of the sin of avodah zarah receive different treatment from an adulterer?

            Talk about not listening, you write that you are not clear how I define avodah zarah. I wrote about this extensively at least three times since your arrival, giving the Torah’s definition, not mine, and backing all my arguments with citations from the Hebrew Bible and Christian scripture. Please tell my why writing about it again is going to make a difference. You are clearly not listening.

          • Alan says:

            “Sorry, the in Yeshua’s name thing fell through the cracks. I consider it the same kind of thing as saying the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.”

            The plain meaning of what you wrote here is Yeshua = the G-d of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. In the past you have made it very clear to me that you don’t equate Jesus with Hashem. Could you please be more precise so I can try to understand?

          • CP says:

            Alan,
            It is truly amazing how little we understand each other, lol. When a person says the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob they are equating the actions, promises and words of the God they served to identify with that God as opposed to some other god. In the same way in the name of Yeshua identifies the actions, promises and words the God who conveyed these things through Yeshua.

          • Alan says:

            CP,
            I really don’t understand at all. I think this is over my head. Why not seek out a Beit Hillel Pharisee who you can develop a relationship with on the phone, skype or blog? What is stopping you? I am sure there are some out there who would be willing to work with you, free of charge.

          • Alan says:

            CP,
            Why not contact the owner of chayas.com who has written a review of Rabbi Harvey Falk’s book. I believe he has also spoken to Rabbi Falk’s children. Maybe he can hook you up with one of Rabbi Falk’s children or maybe he can speak with you himself?

          • Dina says:

            When you call in the name of Jesus do you say “God of Jesus” and never call him in any other way? Tell the truth!

            Why not call on the “God of Elisha” or anyone else for that matter?

            The Torah only uses God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob or God of our fathers. No one else is ever named. The Torah doesn’t refer to God of Moses or God of anyone else. You cannot give Jesus a special appellation when he accomplished NOTHING for the Jewish people but 2000 years of suffering and taught avodah zarah.

          • CP says:

            Alan, Dina
            Why do you twist things around, is the truth not good enough? I think being told I wasn’t welcome and then given the cold shoulder constitutes being kicked out. Granted, I could of probably continued, but why would I want to do that to them? You want “precision”? Okay, I was kindly kicked out, subtlety kicked out, take your choice. Good grief, its a historical fact Jews didn’t want to mix with Christians. You don’t think I know about the 19th benediction? And excuse me for having an opinion on it, thinking that it was not the best choice for the desired result.

            Dina writes;
            “Talk about not listening, you write that you are not clear how I define avodah zarah. I wrote about this extensively at least three times since your arrival, giving the Torah’s definition, not mine, and backing all my arguments with citations from the Hebrew Bible and Christian scripture. Please tell my why writing about it again is going to make a difference. You are clearly not listening.”

            If that is so then why don’t you simply cut and paste it since I apparently missed it the first time?

            Quite frankly your “avodah zarah” is the biggest smoke screen ever. First off it doesn’t apply to Gentiles, second of all, even if it did the Hebrew word(s)for worship is so ambiguous you need to prove a particular type of worship only meant for Hashem is being given to a entity other than God. To compound matters further most Christians worship Hashem as reveled through Jesus. Admittedly there are those who are confused, but then we are back to the first point of their identity as Gentiles.

            In addition you want to immediately exaggerate reverence shown an agent of Hashem as avodah zarah – this is ridiculous. Reverence (worship) is shown to elohim, angels and kings all through the Tanach and you don’t blink an eye. But honor Yeshua one sent by Hashem? It’s avodah zarah! It’s avodah zarah!

          • Alan says:

            CP,

            “You don’t think I know about the 19th benediction? And excuse me for having an opinion on it, thinking that it was not the best choice for the desired result.”

            As far as I know, we don’t know for sure who the 19th blessing was written against. The Saducees and Baitusim could have been the real targets of this prayer. I think they caused much more trouble for the Jews than the Jewish Christians did.

            “Reverence (worship) is shown to elohim, angels and kings all through the Tanach and you don’t blink an eye. But honor Yeshua one sent by Hashem?”

            If you really want to understand why it is a fatal mistake to equate reverence with worship please seek out a Beit Hillel Pharisee on the internet/phone to speak with. I now realize that your situation is too big for me. It’s way over my head and not healthy for me any longer to continue. I wish you success on your journey.

          • Dina says:

            Alan, I for one am sorry to see you go. I enjoyed reading all your comments and was always touched by your earnestness and sincerity. Have a happy Passover!

          • Alan says:

            Thanks Dina. I’m not going for good. I’m just dropping out of the discussions with CP. They are really arguments at this point and I don’t feel that anything good will come of it for anyone. I’m sure there was good that did come out of it but it has degenerated to the point that I don’t see any more good coming out of it.

          • Dina says:

            Alan, I’m glad you’re staying. I dropped out of the discussions with CP for a while because of his fundamental dishonesty, but in the end I couldn’t keep my mouth shut :).

          • Alan says:

            Dina, I also wish you a happy and healthy Pesach!

          • Dina says:

            “If that is so then why don’t you simply cut and paste it since I apparently missed it the first time?”

            Either you have a terrible memory or you’re lying through your teeth because you responded to at least the two that I linked below for your convenience.

            https://yourphariseefriend.wordpress.com/2017/03/05/incarnation-and-definition-of-marriage-3/#comment-34248

            And another one:

            https://yourphariseefriend.wordpress.com/2016/09/19/matthew-admits-that-jesus-was-never-resurrected-by-jim/#comment-32905

            You still won’t apologize for your lies. It’s really sad. Did you even bother reading the remaining examples in my post?

            And then you write this beauty: “Quite frankly your “avodah zarah” is the biggest smoke screen ever. First off it doesn’t apply to Gentiles.” Hello? This whole debate is about the truth for you and me. So are you saying you’re a gentile now? Can you make up your mind please? Secondly, avodah zarah absolutely applies to gentiles. Gentiles are only allowed to worship Hashem, no other entity. There is one opinion among others that Gentiles may be allowed to worship Hashem through a mediator. But that leniency shouldn’t apply to you, should it? And also, Gentiles may only rely on that leniency out of ignorance. When shown the truth, they are obligated to follow it.

            And then you write this: “even if it did the Hebrew word(s)for worship is so ambiguous you need to prove a particular type of worship only meant for Hashem is being given to a entity other than God.” Wow, I didn’t know it was so hard to tell how to avoid committing the worst sin in the Bible. You have to seriously be kidding. Also, I think it unwise for you to try to argue with Hebrew speakers about their language. Last time you posted a ridiculous definition for a word and argued with me over it. Not a good idea to argue about a language you don’t speak with fluent speakers.

            And finally: “But honor Yeshua one sent by Hashem? It’s avodah zarah! It’s avodah zarah!” You either cannot or refuse to hear us out. This last shows that you still cannot articulate our position. This means you lack the ability to listen with empathy.

          • Dina says:

            Tip: look up the sources I cite so you’ll see it straight out in the Torah.

          • CP says:

            Alan, thank you for this:
            “Why not contact the owner of chayas.com”

          • CP says:

            Alan,
            “I now realize that your situation is too big for me. It’s way over my head and not healthy for me any longer to continue. I wish you success on your journey.”

            Alan, it saddens me to see you go. In the short time you’ve been here you have helped me far more than anyone else excepting R’B who helped equally as much, but fear he has also grown weary of me. Personally, I do not think this is over your head and you have the right attitude for it. But understand you have to do what is right for you. Therefore I would like to express a hearty thank you for all your help and support. Wishing you deeper revelations of Hashem’s love for you personally.

            Thank You

          • Alan says:

            CP,
            I’m not going, I’m just sitting the rest of this one out. I don’t see that anyone is going to be better off by continuing with this. I think you’ve probably gotten as much as you can out of these blog discussions at this point in your journey and in order for you to advance you will likely need a real live person(s). Thank you and amen to your your very kind words. I wish you success too.

          • CP says:

            Dina,
            “Either you have a terrible memory or you’re lying through your teeth because you responded to at least the two that I linked below for your convenience.”

            Thank you for upgrading me from liar to a terrible memory. However I do remember these and we discussed them, yet you never proved your accusations, therefore allow me to remind you:

            The Torah defines avodah zarah, foreign worship, in several ways:

            1) a type of worship unknown to us and/or to our fathers (Deuteronomy 13:7, 29:25; 32:17).
            — worshiping the God of Moses, Sinai, or Abraham is the worship of the same God as revealed by Yeshua, therefore it is not an unknown worship.—-

            2) worship of any entity other than God (Exodus 20:3, Deuteronomy 5:7, Isaiah 45:5, Isaiah 43:11).
            — Yeshua NEVER taught he was to be worshiped as God Almighty. This is where you point to confused Christians ignorant of Torah and condemn EVERYONE who honors Yeshua. You being ignorant of cultural context and the complexities of the NT even go so far as to condemn Yeshua himself. —-

            3) any type of worship not taught to us at Mount Sinai (Deuteronomy 4).
            — if you condemn me for worshipping Hashem through the teachings and actions of Rabbi Yeshua then how do you judge yourself for worshipping Hashem through the teachings of Talmudic Rabbis? —-

          • RT says:

            CP, if you believe that Yeshua was a good rabbi, then it would not be considered foreign worship. I would also agree with your three points. Now I know other Christian than you who would agree with your sentences. Nevertheless, let me ask you the following:

            Is Yeshua your savior?
            Is Yeshua your lord?
            Would any Jew who does not believe in Yeshua lost their connection to HaShem?
            Is Yeshua superior in any way to other Rabbi?
            Why?

            Thank you

          • CP says:

            RT,
            Hoping to answer what you asked. Pease allow me to remind you that some of the words you used are trigger words loaded with various meanings dependent on the bias of the reader. But I will do my best to answer precisely, hoping to avoid such pitfalls.

            *Is Yeshua your savior?
            — Hashem is the ONLY savior, however; how and though who HE chooses to save is HIS prerogative. I can say from personal experience Hashem used Yeshua to bring me to HIM. Who is reaching out attempting to save the lost Tribes? Who is searching to save Jews who lost their identity upon migrating to the U.S. and bring them back? No offense intended, but I see no Jewish groups undertaking this. I do see the message Yeshua taught (although perverted by some) going through out the world looking for lost cut off Jews and teaching Gentiles the Noahide Laws. Understood in its proper context; (Hashem working through the message of Yeshua), it is not a stretch to term Yeshua as a saviour sent by God.

            *Is Yeshua your lord?
            — Please note the differences between lord, Lord and LORD as sir, Master and GOD. I consider Yeshua my ‘great Teacher’ who mastered Torah not only through his teachings but through his unwavering living it out to the death. Therefore out of respect and honor due such an individual who gave his life into the hands of Hashem to accomplish what Hashem wanted to accomplish through him, it is not out of line to call him Lord.

            *Would any Jew who does not believe in Yeshua lost their connection to HaShem?
            — Admittedly this is a difficult question, but only because of it’s depth. I’ll try to divide this up the best I can:
            1) Yeshua called for repentance. A Torah observant Jew in good relationship with God has nothing to repent for (excluding individual sins) therefore why would he need Yeshua?
            2) Excluding condition bias, I think for the Jew rejection/acceptance of Yeshua is based on their personal relationship with Hashem rather than the other way around.
            3) I’ve come to think the ‘mutual exclusiveness’ taught in the NT may be a redaction by the Gentile Church. I don’t think acceptance of Yeshua is required to follow Torah, but I do think it provides a balance and safeguard against legalistic observance.
            4) If indeed Yeshua has been exalted to God’s right hand, then a rejection of God’s choice may bear some consequences. However I don’t think it would remove a Jew from the world to come unless at that time he sees Yeshua at God’s right hand and still rejects.

            *Is Yeshua superior in any way to other Rabbi?
            — Yes

            *Why?
            — In the name of what other Rabbi has so much been accomplished? Yeshua’s obedience to Hashem changed the world and he became the most famous person who ever lived. Sure the nay sayers will point to 2000 years of persecution but they fail to realize the worst evil is to pervert that which is good. People don’t take bad things to champion their cause, they take good things and pervert them for their agenda.
            The bottom line to Why? I believe Yeshua was a first advent of Messiah to prepare the way for the return of the exiles and to prepare the Gentile world for the coming of Messiah Son of David.

          • CP says:

            Alan, you write;
            ” I think you’ve probably gotten as much as you can out of these blog discussions at this point in your journey and in order for you to advance you will likely need a real live person(s).”

            You may be right, I’ve been considering it. I think it is the eighth month of my time here, perhaps it’s time for a new beginning? The problem is there is nowhere to go to. Perhaps there is a Rabbi somewhere praying for patience and Hashem will answer his prayer by having us meet.

            Personally, I think an assembly of Jewish and non-Jewish people who keep Torah, not overemphasizing Yeshua would fill a huge void in today’s world.

            Side Note:
            I realize the need for “anti-missionary” action, but it is a defensive position. I think it would be much better to go on the offensive teaching Christians a correct Jewish view of Yeshua .

          • Alan says:

            CP,

            I don’t want to get into any back and forth but I just wanted to give you something to think about and some verses to go with it. Can you name any people from Tanach or from Mishnah or Talmudic times that the Jewish people admire and love as great people (people – not G-d Himself) but whose names were hijacked to represent evil (evil such as idolatry, murder, antisemitism) and whose teachings were corrupted and mingled with evil to the point that it is no longer possible to positively identify the real teachings from the false teachings added by evil hands? Why can’t we name any? Could it be that G-d watches over and protects that person’s name and legacy because G-d loves the person and his legacy and because G-d wants to preserve the truth? Why didn’t Hashem do this for Jesus?

            Here are supporting verses –

            King David said in 1 samuel 24:13 – “As saith the proverb of the ancients: Out of the wicked cometh forth wickedness; but my hand shall not be upon thee.”

            Proverbs 22:1 – A good name is rather to be chosen than great riches, and loving favour rather than silver and gold.

            Ecclesiastes 7:1 – A good name is better than precious oil; and the day of death than the day of one’s birth.

            Psalms 119″165 – Great peace have they that love Thy law; and there is no stumbling for them.

            1 Samuel 2:9 – He will keep the feet of His holy ones, but the wicked shall be put to silence in darkness; for not by strength shall man prevail.

            Proverbs 2:8 – That He may guard the paths of justice, and preserve the way of His pious ones.

            Psalms 37:23 – It is of the LORD that a man’s goings are established; and He delighted in his way.

          • RT says:

            CP, thanks for your clarification. I don’t see any false worship in what you said. I still don’t think Yeshua was the messiah, but if he is not the true messiah, that won’t change the fact that you follow G-d. Now, some of the NT might teach wrong doctrines, but as a perfect understanding of G-d is not required to have him as G-d, you should have no problem.

            I know you keep on saying that Yeshua brought people to Torah, but do you have any other reason to believe in him than that?

          • CP says:

            Alan,
            “I don’t want to get into any back and forth…..”
            — Likewse, but you did pose a coupe questions, I’ll keep it short.

            “Can you name any people from Tanach or from Mishnah or Talmudic times …….whose names were hijacked to represent evil…..Why can’t we name any?”
            — Well, we have the brass serpent, granted, not a “person”. We’ve discussed Shammai who was a righteous man but his followers used his name for evil. Admittedly I’m not versed in Talmud, therefore I’m at a grave disatvange to be able to answer. However I will say by the time the Talmud was written down there was already villainized character in Yeshua filling this spot, therefore no need for another.

            “Could it be that G-d watches over and protects that person’s name and legacy because G-d loves the person and his legacy and because G-d wants to preserve the truth? Why didn’t Hashem do this for Jesus?”
            — I think the perversion of Yeshua’s message and name was allowed intentionally by Hashem so that the message would go to the ends of the world.
            To explain;
            Think of it like a computer program. Would you personally down load a program teaching you how to sew ballet dresses or cook a pig? I assume not. For something to go viral it needs it be of interest or attractive to the large majority of the population. It is in this kind of program one would hide a virus if they wanted to infect the whole world.

            What better program than the forgiveness of sin without repentance and the abolition of laws? This is the kind of thing that will go viral amongst humanity. But Hashem imbedded this message with a good virus attacking those predisposed to be susceptible; lost Jews and Gentiles with a heart for God. The imbedded virus is Hashem and HIS Torah.

            In the world it is the program which is good and the virus bad. But Hashem outsmarted the whole world with a bad program they would love, imbedded with a good virus for those in the world HE loves.

          • Alan says:

            CP,
            I will just say that this is a very clever and creative solution! I don’t buy it, but it’s a pretty good try!

          • CP says:

            RT;
            “I know you keep on saying that Yeshua brought people to Torah, but do you have any other reason to believe in him than that?”

            — besides I’d probably be in prison or dead if I hadn’t embraced the teachings of Yeshua? (I was pretty wild when I was young). Or besides a restored relationship with God who hears and answers prayers? Or knowing God loves me as accepts me even in my imperfections? Or the internal witness of the promised Spirit sent by Hashem who speaks to me? Or the hundreds of people who I’ve witnessed have their lives radically changed?
            RT, you might as well ask if I have a sister, a mother, a father, a cousin, an aunt, an uncle a best friend, because that is how real the Spirit is; the same Spirit Yeshua promised Hashem would send; this is why I believe.

          • CP says:

            Dina writes;
            “You either cannot or refuse to hear us out. This last shows that you still cannot articulate our position. This means you lack the ability to listen with empathy.”

            Dina, I’m the one who can׳t hear? Can you hear Maimonides? The great medieval sage declared that Christians “will not find in their Torah [the New Testament] anything that conflicts with our Torah.”

            Apparently you have the chupatz to argue with Maimonides?

  24. Jim says:

    Continuing to answer the second half of Kavi’s post, regarding repentance, here: https://yourphariseefriend.wordpress.com/2017/02/27/deadly-parable-excerpt-from-supplement/#comment-33953

    Kavi writes: “Rest for the soul is only through G-d’s way of forgiveness through His Redeemer- not our way of repentance.

    Our godly sorrows over sin and our repentances can lead to the realization that salvation is only in Mashiach L-rd Yeshua- but sorrows and repentances in and of themselves cannot ‘save’.”

    In my previous comments answering Kavi, I showed that the inferences he made about repentance from Moses being denied entry into the land of Israel and Adam and Eve being restricted reëntry into the Garden of Eden stood on nothing. The same arguments could be applied just as well to forgiveness through Jesus. Kavi’s arguments, therefore, do not stand.

    But one wonders why Kavi had to employ those stories at all. Why should Kavi have needed to rely on inference? Reading Kavi’s work, one would come to the conclusion that Tanach never directly addresses the idea of repentance, leaving him no recourse except to infer a teaching from these passages.

    But this is not so.

    Tanach does directly teach on repentance. And when it does so, it does not create the dichotomy that Kavi does. It does not contrast “our way of repentance” with “G-d’s way of forgiveness through his Redeemer.” Kavi has badly distorted the teaching of Tanach by neglecting passages that directly address repentance.

    For example, Ezekiel 18:21-23: “But if the wicked turn away from all their sins that they have committed and keep all my statutes and do what is lawful and right, they shall surely live; they shall not die. None of the transgressions that they have committed shall be remembered against them; for the righteousness that they have done they shall live. Have I any pleasure in the death of the wicked says the Lord God, and not rather that they should turn from their ways and live?”

    And Ezekiel 33:10-16: “Now you, mortal, say to the house of Israel, Thus you have said: ‘Our transgressions and our sins weigh upon us, and we waste away because of them; how then can we live?’ Say to them, As I live, says the Lord God, I have no pleasure of the death of the wicked, but that the wicked turn from their ways and live; turn back, turn back from your evil ways; for why will you die, O house of Israel? And you, mortal, say to your people, The righteousness of the righteous shall not save them when they transgress; and as for the wickedness of the wicked, it shall not make them stumble when they turn from their wickedness; and the righteous shall not be able to live by their righteousness when they sin. Though I say to the righteous that they shall surely live, yet if they trust in their righteousness and commit iniquity, none of their righteous deeds shall be remembered; but in the iniquity that they have committed they shall die. Again, though I say to the wicked, ‘You shall surely die,’ yet if they turn from their sin and do what is lawful and right—if the wicked restore the pledge, give back what they have taken by robbery, and walk in the statutes of life, committing no iniquity—they shall surely live, they shall not die. None of the sins they have committed shall be remembered against them; they have done what is lawful and right, they shall surely live.”

    The reader must be as shocked by what does not appear in these passages as what does appear. Kavi’s insistence on forgiveness through a redeemer is not mentioned. As HaShem tells the people how they can become right with Him if they have violated His commandments, He says nothing about Jesus. He does not tell them that their iniquities are an indication of their inability to keep Torah or their deep need for someone to die in their stead. Rather He tells them to repent, to make right the wrongs they have done and return to His Law. And, not only does He say that they shall not die, as they had been told they would, their sins will not even be remembered. Kavi calls this path “our way,” a way of human invention. But he is wrong; this is HaShem’s way. It requires no convoluted inference to discover this principle. It is stated openly.

    (It should be mentioned here, as well, that Kavi has also insisted that righteousness comes only through faith. These chapters also show this notion to be incorrect. The righteous is the one that “does what is lawful and right” [Ez. 18:5]. And indeed, the passages show that one is counted righteous not by faith, but through practicing HaShem’s Torah.)

    The teaching of Deuteronomy is the same as in Ezekiel, lacking Jesus but teaching repentance: “When all these things have happened to you, the blessings and the curses that I have set before you, if you call them to mind among all the nations where the Lord your God has driven you, and return to the Lord your God, and your and your children obey Him with all your heart and with all your soul, just as I am commanding you today, then the Lord your God will restore your fortunes and have compassion on you, gathering you again from all the peoples among whom the Lord your God has scattered you” (1-3). Once again the teaching is repentance, to obey HaShem. Conspicuously absent is anything about realizing the need for a redeemer.

    What is most astonishing about Kavi’s comment is the abuse of Psalm 32, however. He writes:

    “When anyone believe into L-RD Yeshua for forgiveness of sins, G-d Himself cleanses their soul from all unrighteousness because He promised to do so,
    AND THEN,
    ‘How blessed is the man in whom the L-RD does not impute iniquity,
    And in whose spirit there is no deceit!’ [Psalm 32]” [Emphasis in original]

    Kavi has interpolated an idea that is not in the Psalm. The psalm says nothing about believing on a redeemer for forgiveness, Jesus or any other. He has pushed an idea foreign to the text upon it, while neglecting what is actually in the psalm. Verse 5 contradicts entirely Kavi’s premise that repentance is “our way”. It says: “Then I acknowledged my sin to you, and I did not hide my iniquity; I said, ‘I will confess my transgressions to the Lord,” and you forgave the guilt of my sin. Selah.” Kavi has misrepresented the psalm altogether.

    In denying Tanach’s teachings on repentance, Kavi denies the love of God. HaShem promises mercy to those that return to His ways. He promises to no longer consider them guilty. He promises that He does not seek the destruction of the wicked; He wishes them to repent. But Kavi envisions a god whose promises are empty, a god that teases his creatures with an idea that they can return to him and be forgiven, when in reality he will withhold that forgiveness from them. He envisions a god that says he does not desire the death of the wicked, because what he really wants is the death of the righteous. Kavi’s misrepresentations of Tanach distort and deny the promises of HaShem. He falsely labels HaShem’s way of repentance, “our way” of repentance, denigrating HaShem’s way. Kavi relied on baseless inferences rather than Tanach’s actual teachings on repentance, and in so doing distorted the teaching of Tanach.

    Jim

  25. Eleazar says:

    “Eleazar, the two schools coexisted. When Hillel students left (to proselytize?) Shammai took control. You assume there were clean cut lines and no middle; that’s really not reality.”

    I’m not the one who drew the lines. You did. I assumed the two schools existed at the same time because you have spoken of the supposed “war” between them- that Beit Shammai were the bad guys who Jesus castigated ( and called for his death) and Beit Hillel were good guys Jesus aligned with. YOUR ideas, not mine. YOUR lines. Not mine.

    Who were the “proselytizing…sons of hell” Jesus directed his venom at, Beit Hillel or Beit Shammai? If you say Shammai, I direct you back to your comment that Shammai was against proselytizing. If you say Beit Hillel, then there goes your theory that Jesus focused his attacks only at the evil Beit Shammai and not wonderful Beit Hillel. If Jesus was insulting the proselytizers, and Beit Shammai did not proselytize, then his poisonous words could only be directed at the proselytizing Hillel group. Either way you have made a previous statement that was wrong according to Jesus.

    • Dina says:

      Eleazar, I know this isn’t what you were quibbling about, but I’m not aware of any teaching of Hillel’s to proselytize.

      The point of the story of the convert who came to Hillel seeking to learn the Torah on one foot is to teach us the virtues of patience and compassion but above all to emphasize the fundamental nature of the law of love. The point is not to teach that one ought to proselytize.

      • Eleazar says:

        Was responding only to CP’s inconsistency. It was CP who said Hillel’s class proselytized, not me. Hoping to see him show has the slightest humility to admit he, or his latest video or website, got it wrong.

        What difference does it make, anyway? CP believes Christians already have “Torah” and that the Jew’s job was done when Jesus ( who said he came only for Israel), by way of the church, took the “Old Testament” ( that title seems so foreign to me now) to the nations. Actually, Paul should get the most credit since it was his following that expanded Christianity, and thereby “Torah”, to the world.

        • CP says:

          Seriously you guys don’t listen well. Yes as a result of Yeshua the written Torah went through the world – but that is only a means, the end is to bring people back to Judaism.

          • Dina says:

            Eleazar, how do you feel when CP says “you guys don’t listen well”? Just curious.

            Coming from a guy who supposedly came here to learn, that’s pretty funny. Coming from a guy who still can’t believe that Jews would reject Jesus even after hours and hours of our writing on the subject, that’s pretty sad.

          • RT says:

            I think that CP, you are not listening well. First, there is no reason why we should believe the Yeshua was a living torah of any sort. Nobody understand what it means to be a living torah, but you. Seriously, you invented the term and it is nowhere mentioned that a man would be the incarnation of the Torah.

            Second, the “old” testament was share mostly by catholic (MOTHER) church and the protestant church. Torah was not brought to the world in a silver platter by Jesus, nor by his followers. His followers, and as early as Paul, thought that the Torah was a curse and useless to follow! Now you will probably think I don’t understand the “Historical” Jesus, AKA the Jesus of your own imagination, but the truth is; your Jesus does not exist!

            Furthermore, when it is at your advantage, you embrace the apostate church, but when it is not, you exclude yourself from it? It is them that brought the “old” testament to the world. Not that they ever preach it for us to follow it, but it was an unwanted piece that needed to be there for the purpose of preaching your messiah (or at least their understanding of him).

      • Alan says:

        Dina,

        “The point of the story of the convert who came to Hillel seeking to learn the Torah on one foot is to teach us the virtues of patience and compassion but above all to emphasize the fundamental nature of the law of love. The point is not to teach that one ought to proselytize.”

        I agree 100%.

        Do you think that perhaps another point of these accounts is to show that Hillel held that rabbis should make it easy for those coming to convert, that they shouldn’t push away with both hands someone who comes to them, but that one hand should pull them in?

        • CP says:

          Alan, I know your not asking me, but when did that ever stop me, lol – don’t mean to butt in but how’s this for an answer:

          https://intheboxcar.wordpress.com/tag/yehoshua-b-perahya/

          • Alan says:

            CP,

            Yehoshua ben Prachya was Jesus’ teacher according to this article. Yehoshua ben Prachya lived in the second half of the second century. Sorry, no dice with this one CP.

          • Alan says:

            CP,

            Correction – BCE not BC. Still no dice.

          • Alan says:

            Also, Chabad chassidim with Yechi kippot (i.e. they advertise on their skullcaps that they believe their late rebbe is the messiah) don’t get kicked out of any regular orthodox shul I’ve ever gone to. Some shuls even give them the honor of being called to the Torah. So, it’s not because someone believes in a failed or false messiah that they get kicked out.

          • CP says:

            Alan,
            Without getting into self censored Talmud theories, I never intended you to take the posted link as about Yeshua, but rather about “pushing away with both hands”. Sometimes I feel like ya’ll think about Jesus to much, lol

        • Dina says:

          I’m not sure, Alan.

          There is good reason to discourage conversion–for the potential convert’s sake. As a gentile, he can attain righteousness and closeness to God much more easily than as a Jew. Once he becomes a Jew, he becomes obligated to observe God’s commandments, and there is no turning back. I know two converts who regretted their decision and are no longer religious–but they are still Jews and thus not off the hook.

          Better a righteous gentile than an unrighteous Jew.

    • CP says:

      Eleazar, admittedly your comment is very good, but as I said before; reality is not drawn along such clear cut lines. Yeshua wasn’t speaking in generalities but to a particular group who apparently were hypocritical.

  26. Concerned Reader says:

    “isn’t this EXCATLY the purpose of Acts 15? However it is interpreted (perverted) by today’s Church into the abrogation of the Torah because they lack the Jewish understanding behind the Jerusalem Council decision.”

    CP, The Jerusalem council did teach gentiles the basic rules for G-d fearing gentiles, but they also made a belief in Jesus’ messiahship, atoning death and bodily ressurection mandatory as all the gospels plainly show.

    That belief is ultimately what made them go antimomian and stop their observance.

    When you die, you are no longer under Torah law, hence why burial shrouds can have mixed fabrics.

    The Ebionites and Nazarenes (according to their own gospel fragments) believed in the abrogation of the temple service after Jesus died and rose. They helieved the temple’s destruction proved this, and also thought the temple would not be rebuilt unless a false messiah built one.

    The messianic view that you must trust in the death of Jesus for the atonment and remission of your sins, and the belief in his bodily ressurection were innovations of the Jesus movement and were not plainly and straightforwardly found in the Torah, but instead were based on the alleged experiences of Christians, and how they interpreted scripture after that experience.

    Whatever the early Christians went through, it made them look down on other Jews who did not decide to share their messianic belief, hence the problem.

    If Christians were willing to die deaths that took days (like Crucifixion or death in the arena,) its clear they believed they had an experience.

    However, that belief, being a belief in a miracle is not fit grounds to establish a new doctrine on.

    Something changed for the earliest Christians where they saw the observances of other Jews and said, “thats not good enough.”

    That belief is why they were asked to leave. Claiming that the Torah is not enough.

    Would you blame an Evangelical for asking a believer in Joseph Smith to attend the LDS Church, and not an evangelical congregation?

    Alan, what I meant about Christians tracing back to Jesus is that orthodox and Catholic Christians have a list of the bishops of the Church of Jerusalem, among other Churches. The list is probably appocryohal, but nontheless they have one.

    It starts with James, Jesus’ brother, passes to other distant relatives, and then the Bishopric (the office of head of Jerusalem’s Church) shifted to a gentile named Markus after the Bar Kichba revolt.

    My point was the Christian religion was not in Jewish hands, nor was it predominately made up of Jewish members by the year 135 CE. It had become a largely non Jewish movement by the time we hear about Church Martyers and Church fathers like Polycarp or Justin.

    • Alan says:

      Concerned Reader,

      Thank you very much. Did you ever write anything that you could share with us about who you think the real Jesus was and if you think there are any teachings in his name that we can know are authentic and if it’s even worth it for a Jew or Gentile to spend time researching this when all people already have access to a reliable Written and Oral Torah?

      • Concerned Reader says:

        Ok Alan. That’s a very difficult question about what we can trace back to Jesus, but not an impossible one.

        Maybe If I explain a method I used when reading the Christian Bible.

        1. I Find out the clear dos and do nots of the Christian Bible as per the expected proper conduct from the sources. I Don’t focus on parables or theology at 1st.

        I asked myself, how do the authors of the various books of the Christian Bible expect people to behave? When I asked that question, I found some of the following were the very common answers in all the New Testament books.

        – Gentiles should abstain from blood, from idolatry, from meat sacrificed to idols, from sexual immorality, and from eating meat of strangled animals. (Acts 15 1 Corinthians 8 1 Corinthians 10:28 Ephesians 5:3 Revelation 2:12-20. )

        -People should abstain from evil or foolish speech, and should only conduct themselves in holiness. Those who do not behave properly will not be blessed by G-d or join the kingdom of heaven, but only those who do the work. (Ephesians 4-6 Romans 2:13 Mathew 7:21-24)

        – If someone is Jewish and Observant when they become a believer in Jesus, they should remain that way, but not force gentiles to observe Jewish law. However, gentiles should not mistreat Jewish believers who choose to honor the law. (1 Corinthians 7:17 Romans chapters 9-11 & chapter 14:1-19 Acts 16)

        Its also interesting to note that the general context of 1 Corinthians 7 concerns married life, and how to go about navigating the circumstances in a relationship involving a Jesus believing and a non Jesus believing spouse.

        This shows that Paul wanted believers in Jesus to be able to interact peaceably with Jews or gentiles who did not believe in Jesus, because he believed marriage was navigable in that situation, how much more so a simple interaction?

        I noticed that most of these rules of proper conduct and the requirement to act in holiness for gentiles were most clearly articulated in the Pauline epistles, or in works like Acts written by Pauline Christians.

        IE gentile Christians who lived long after Jesus who followed Paul of Tarssus still believed there were certain rules of conduct that Christians needed to observe in order to be considered holy, or fit to enter the kingdom, Catholics and Orthodox Christians still believe you must do actions, not just believe.

        (this had to mean that the later protestant view of Paul of Tarsus as antinomian or against works couldn’t actually be completely accurate.)

        If Paul didn’t believe actions were important to Christian salvation, why did his epistles stress proper conduct more than the other New testament books?
        Take for example the rules that specify what food you can or can’t eat. If Kosher was supposed to be abolished, those rules would not be in Paul’s writings, nor would they be in later Christian manuals of discipline like the Didache or the Didascalia preserved by gentiles.

        These rules about food also illustrate that texts like Mark 7:19 cannot be about abolishing kosher, because earlier and later Christian texts then Mark 7 have these rules about food in them.

        When Christianity became an official imperial religion is when a lot of this started to disappear entirely.

        I noticed that if you took all of the theology and parables out of the Christian Bible, all that would remain were ethics consistent with what is expected for G-d fearing non Jews, basically what later became known as Noachide laws.

        This meant when Paul talks down “works of the law,” it has to mean membership markers indicative of a Jew’s unique covenant obligations, not a blanket statement against G-dly behavior in line with the commandments.

        In other words, Paul’s arguments against Torah observance are against certain people who wanted to make conversion to Judaism mandatory to following Jesus’ movement. not observance among believers or non believers in general.

        We know (because of the Jewish gospel fragments and Church historians) that there were Jews in the past who believed in Jesus, but also maintained Torah observance. They were called Ebionites, and Nazarenes. They died out by the 4th century.

        When I read about the Jesus described in the synoptic gospels, I see a Jewish preacher who played fast and loose with halacha in his day. All of the things where he is accused of a violation were issues that were under discission among sects of Judaism in his time period.

        There is no ethical content in the New Testament that can’t also be found somewhere in Judaism’s own sources. Dina has posted some examples elsewhere.

        Rather than asking what can be traced all the way back to Jesus, I asked what was demonstrably consistent in the ethics and practices that were not unique to Christians.

        If you want to know more about my opinion, you should read the article I wrote called starting points, and the others.

  27. Alan says:

    Can any of the scholars here confirm the following information? –

    Hillel had about 80 disciples. These were the cream of the crop students, as it were, who thought about the Messianic age. About half of those went out on a mission to the nations of the world to try and spread the Sheva Mitzvot (seven Noahide laws) and were never heard from again.

    Is this true? If yes, what is the source?

  28. Concerned Reader says:

    Dina,
    What I am still wondering about is how “calling in the name of Yeshua” fits in with CP’s belief that Jesus was a regular kosher Beit Hillel Pharisee. I don’t think any kind of Pharisee ever called on the name of any human being as prayer because, I believe, it’s against the Torah.

    The thing to remember Alan is that Christian books were written from about 50-90 of the common era, IE they were written before any of the codifications we are used to were written. There are many heretical views, practices, etc. which were practiced in second temple times, which are not today.

    I think calling on his name in prayer probably initially started with doing things in his merit, and morphed later into asking J directly to do certain things in his name.

    • Alan says:

      Concerned Reader, thank you very much! I will start with Starting Points.

    • Alan says:

      Concerned Reader, thank you. If CP wants to follow the halacha of Beit Hillel, which is what orthodox Jews follow today and have followed for almost 2000 years, then why doesn’t he go to an orthodox rabbi who is involved in spreading the Noahide laws and ask him if it’s kosher to “call in the name of Jesus” in prayer. This is a very reasonable plan for CP that is not too difficult to do.

      • CP says:

        “why doesn’t he go to an orthodox rabbi”
        I would take an Orthodox Rabbi to lunch at a Kosher restaurant at least once a week just to talk with him, however I’d bet there isn’t either within 200 miles of me. I did talk with a visiting Reform Rabbi who actually agreed with me. Good, right? No, he was a little to liberal for me to fully trust his opinion, very nice person though.

        • Alan says:

          CP,
          “I would take an Orthodox Rabbi to lunch at a Kosher restaurant at least once a week just to talk with him, however I’d bet there isn’t either within 200 miles of me. I did talk with a visiting Reform Rabbi who actually agreed with me. Good, right? No, he was a little to liberal for me to fully trust his opinion, very nice person though.”

          You don’t have to do this in person. On the phone and on skype, you can learn and help a Beit Hillel Pharisee who is carrying on what you believe is Jesus’ movement to spread the Noahide laws to the nations. You have said this is the most important thing Jesus came to the world to do. You want to follow Jesus. Who else in the world today is giving Jesus more nachas than these Beit Hillel Pharisees who are teaching and writing books on the Noahide Laws? This is why I came to this blog – to make you realize that Jesus’ main campaign of spreading the Noahide laws is coming back (second coming?) and picking up steam and you have an opportunity to get in on the ground floor and be a part of the true legacy of Jesus! What are you waiting for?

          • Eleazar says:

            Nearly everything I have learned about Torah has come by talking to Orthodox rabbis, either on the phone, reading their blogs or in person.

            If I remember correctly, CP stated he has only attended a Reform Temple. I have attended enough Conservative Torah services, and classes at Reform Temples, to know that the more liberal movements of Judaism focus almost entirely on politics, especially Reform and Reconstructionist, and politics is usually the topic of Kiddush lunch conversation. Conservative is not quite as bad, depending on the rabbi.

            The more liberal movements are FAR more “Christian bashing” than the Orthodox. And it has little to do with religion. It has to do with the fact that mainstream Christianity tends to push a conservative GOP- based agenda. Liberal rabbis can, and often do, take any Parashah and turn it into a liberal political talking point in their D’Var Torah.
            That is what drove me [temporarily] away from Judaism, not their suspicion of my Christian views, which at the time were not real different from CP’s.

            As I mentioned, I am guessing that CP is a right-winger. That will get you into far more trouble at a Reform Temple than being a Christian will. My guess is that if CP was shunned it was over his political views. He can correct me if he disagrees.

            If I have overstepped, or if this is deemed inappropriate, Rav B is certainly welcome to delete this post. I won’t be offended.

  29. CP says:

    Rabbi Jacob Emden – “The Nazarene brought about a double kindness in the world. On the one hand, he strengthened the Torah of Moses majestically, as mentioned earlier, and not one of our Sages spoke out more emphatically concerning the immutability of the Torah. And on the other hand, he did much good for the Gentiles (providing they do not turn about his intent as they please, as some foolish ones have done because they did not fully understand the intent of the authors of the Gospels.” [Rabbi Jacob Emden, Seder Olam Tabbah Vezuta (1757)]

    • Dina says:

      If you read the whole letter it is clear that this is a plea to Christians not to persecute Jews. It is not an endorsement for Jews to follow Jesus.

      If you read all of Rabbi Emden’s work, it is also clear that he was fiercely opposed to false messianic claimants and their followers. If you really cared about what Rabbi Emden said, you would see this letter in a whole different context. But you do not care about Rabbi Emden taught; you are looking for support, however flimsy, for your beliefs.

      If you cared about what Orthodox rabbis teach in general, you would have left Jesus long ago. You do not care about what they have to say except when you can find something that you can twist into support of your theology.

      • Dina says:

        He strongly opposed any study of mysticism/kabalah because of its association with messianic claimants (miracle working, anyone?) and tried to destroy the famous sage Rabbi Moshe Chaim Luzzato because he was a kabalist. That should give you an idea of the context of this letter.

      • CP says:

        Dina,
        This quotation is taken from his letter which I have read repeatedly and I never even as so much implied this was an endorsment for Jews to follow Jesus. As for Rabbi Emden; remember when I told you where the Michael Savage clip popped up? This is the Rabbi was researching for about 8 hours. You seem to be a very prejudiced (pre-judge) person. All the negative presumptions and baseless accusations really reveal what is in your heart. Is this is exempatory of the results a person experiences when they follow Orthodox Torah Observance? (Ya׳ll are the only Orthodox Jews I know).

        • Dina says:

          CP, if you had a shred of self-awareness you would not have written this comment. I am beginning to feel very sorry for you.

          • RT says:

            I would suggest to start over and forgive/forget all past comments. This conversation has become unproductive and very little has been given from each side. Maybe, CP could clearly explain a few points of his unorthodox belief about Yeshua, the Jews, how to attain salvation, is Yeshua an atonement, how are Jews “saved”, why Yeshua is the messiah, etc. It has frustrate me and many, because there are some weird aspect of his belief that I still cannot grasp and I think he has in many way being misunderstood…

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