Representative Idolatry – Response to David

David

In response to comment – https://yourphariseefriend.wordpress.com/2015/06/03/sins-of-confusion-ii-response-to-david/#comment-19243

Thanks again for your thought out reply – I truly believe that respectful discussions such as these that don’t beat around the bush will bring us all closer to the truth.

Your entire post reveals a deep misunderstanding of my position so I will first attempt to clarify my position and to put the discussion in context.

On a superficial level our argument centers on the concept of “representative idolatry” – in other words, making an idol and worshiping it as a representation of the true God.

My position is that this is possible, that it is considered idolatry by the Author of Scripture but that in a certain limited sense it is a bit less evil than outright idolatry. Furthermore, I believe that the worship of the golden calves (at Sinai and of Jeroboam) is an example of this representative idolatry as well as the idol of Micah described in Judges 17,18.

You position is not clear to me. I recognize that you believe that the worship of the golden calves of Sinai and Jeroboam as well as the worship of the idol of Micah were not examples of representative idolatry but I do not understand your position on the other issues. Do you believe that representative idolatry is not possible? Do you believe that if someone creates an idol as a representation of the true God and worships it that it would not be considered idolatry? Do you believe that the Bible never addresses the issue of representative idolatry?

The context of our discussion is Trinitarian Christianity. I recognize that you are not a Trinitarian and I respect you for recognizing the fallacy of that falsehood but there still seems to be a difference between us on this matter. I believe that although those who worship Jesus as a divinity believe that he is somehow “one and the same” as the God of Israel are still engaged in idolatry. You seem to believe differently and you seem to be basing your argument on the fact that the Bible never addresses representative idolatry.

But even if you are correct in your assessment of the Bible (and I hope to demonstrate that the Bible DOES address representative idolatry) I don’t know how you could jump to the conclusion that the worship of the Trinitarian Christians is not idolatry. The fact of the matter is that they are not worshiping Jesus because they believe that he created heaven and earth. They wouldn’t need Jesus if that is what they were trying to do. Their worship is inspired by the activities that were expressed in a human body (an allegedly sinless life and death on a cross). How do you see the fact that they believe that Jesus is “one and the same” as the One who created heaven and earth as a factor that changes the act of worship?

In fact I would say that this is actually worse than representative idolatry. Representative idolatry begins with a desire to worship God. The worshiper then makes a statue to represent the true God. The motivator is a desire to worship God. In the case of Jesus the historical motivator was a desire to exalt Jesus. The theological conundrum that posits that Jesus is “one and the same” as God was only conjured up to justify the worship that had already begun – if not in the sense of worshiping him as a divinity, but certainly in the sense of being overwhelmed by his character.

One more clarifying statement before we get to our differences in Biblical interpretation. You seem to think that I believe that representative idolatry is not a rebellion against God. That is a mistake. I believe that representative idolatry is a rebellion against God, not only in the sense that it is a direct violation of His commandment not to create an image but because it is worship of a different entity than God. Men may think that this physical being represents God but the Bible teaches us that it is worship of the physical being and not worship of God. Representative idolatry is a rejection of God, a rebellion against Him and a turning away from Him. People may attempt to fool themselves into thinking that this is not the case, but the Bible teaches us that this is in fact what is happening in the hearts of the people.

The only way in which I believe that representative idolatry is less than outright idolatry is because there is an element of confusion. This element of confusion would not hold up in a court of Biblical judges to save a person from the death sentence. The letter of the Law only recognizes the mitigating factor of “unintentional” and this confusion wouldn’t qualify as unintentional because God explicitly commanded against it. But we see that when God judges, He considers factors beyond the simple line of intentional vs. unintentional. I see this mainly in the difference of the way the Scriptures discuss the sin of the golden calves of Jeroboam and the way they discuss other idolatry. They are both rebellion against God and both are a rejection of God but the one has an element of confusion and the other doesn’t. But I do agree with you that this distinction is largely irrelevant because as far as humans are concerned both are rebellion against God. If you didn’t notice, most of my blog is dedicated to exposing the error of representative idolatry and demonstrating how despite the sophistry of theologians it is still rebellion against God. (- See for example   https://yourphariseefriend.wordpress.com/2010/10/24/isaiah-44/  )

Now that we have clarified (I hope) what it is that we are trying to prove let us approach the various Scriptures.

I will begin with Deuteronomy 4:15 because that is where I believe that God is commanding us against idolatry in a way that clearly includes representative idolatry.

Why would someone who is consciously rebelling against God and rejecting Him give a hoot if God did or did not show Israel a form at Sinai? Is this rejecter of God not turning his or her back on everything that God taught them? Why would this idolater care if God showed Israel a form or not? This person isn’t even trying to worship the God who spoke to Israel at Sinai.

Or perhaps let me word it this way – if someone does want to engage in representative idolatry would the prohibition expressed in Deuteronomy 4:15 not apply to such a person? I do not see how any of your arguments on this subject change the simple reading of the verses.

You wrote that God showed Israel no form so that they should stand apart from the nations around them in that they worship no form. Exactly! And if they do make a form to represent God they would be just like the nations around them.

At this point I will address the points you raise in your comment in the order that you raised them.

I agree with you that not every image is an idol. In fact I believe that the act of idolatry is a sin of the heart and can be committed without a physical image. If the worshiper imagines his or her object of worship and directs devotion to that object (such as a fictional character described in a book) that would also be idolatry. (See – https://yourphariseefriend.wordpress.com/2013/11/13/trinity-idolatry-and-worship/   )

On the question of whether the golden calf was still present when Moses called that those loyal to God should gather at the gate of the camp. You argue that it would have taken too long for Moses to grind the calf down to dust. But would it have taken a long time for Moses to remove the calf and take to a place where he or those loyal to him could begin the grinding process? Why would he allow the worship to continue if he could physically remove the calf?

In response to my question about the mindset of the people 3000 years ago you lecture me on the concept of embodiment. I am well aware of the concept of embodiment and that is precisely my point. Those worshiping the calf did not believe that the piece of metal took them out of Egypt but that the power who did take them out of Egypt was somehow embodied, represented, manifest, incarnated or hypostatically unified in the calf in front of them.

So which power did they believe took them out of Egypt? Was it one of the Egyptian gods who were ALL afflicted at the time of the exodus (Exodus 12:12; Numbers 33:4). I don’t think that that would be logical even for people living 3000 years ago.

I pointed out to you that the worshipers of the Ba’al wanted the prophets of God dead while the worshipers of Jeroboam’s golden calves did not. I believe that this lends weight to my argument that the worshipers of the golden calf deceived themselves with the argument that the golden calves were somehow representative of God. I do not see how your arguments counter my point. The fact that Jezebel was involved in Ba’al worship and the fact that you believe that there were more Ba’al worshipers than there were worshipers of the golden calves does not mitigate my point.

I do agree with you that the frequency of Ba’al worship was far greater than worship of the golden calves but I don’t see how this quantitative difference justifies the difference in the way the Scriptures describe the two worships.

You ask me if the idolatry of Solomon (1Kings 11:5) was representative idolatry and how determine which worship is representative and which is not.

Response – Solomon’s worship was not representative idolatry simply because the verse explicitly names the idols and the name of the true God is not mentioned anywhere in association with these idols. The way I see if a particular worship is representative is if the Scriptures associate the true God with this idol – such as when the Scriptures tell us that the worshipers claimed that their idol was the one that took them out of Egypt or when the name of God is used in association with the idol (Exodus 32:5).

The fact that you ask me how does the fact that the Northern Kingdom being exiled because of idolatry “square” with my theory – shows how you don’t understand my theory. I never said that representative idolatry is not idolatry. This brings me to your next point when you argue against my theory by saying that God always defines idolatry as a rejection of God. Of-course! When one worships a calf, a person or the fictional character of some Greek book they are certainly rejecting God. And this simple fact does not change if the worshiper deceives him or herself into thinking that their object of worship is representative of God or not. All that I was saying is that because there is an element of confusion present in this worship so it is a bit less of a rebellion than outright idolatry where the worshiper does not even bother paying lip-service to wanting to worship God.

You claim that I cited commentators that post-date the advent of Christianity in support of my theory of representative theology. Can you point out to me where I have ever cited any authority aside from the Bible?

You present a theory that the reason that God had the Jews make a tabernacle and an ark of the covenant, why He put a pillar of cloud and fire in their midst was because of their pagan inclinations. How then do you explain the fact that the prophets predicted a physical Temple in the Messianic era (e.g. Isaiah 2:1) when such pagan influences will be eradicated?

You cite the fact that the Jews were worshiping idols of other nations from the times of their ancestors – I don’t see how this has a bearing on our discussion.

You ask why would Joshua link inclining their hearts to God with the act of putting away foreign gods if their hearts were already inclined toward God by way of representative idolatry. –  I never said that the Jews always engaged in representative idolatry. Even if they would have been engaged in representative idolatry Joshua would not have been satisfied because that is still idolatry. In any case – The Jewish people worshiped God all the days of Joshua and all the days of the elders that lived on after Joshua (Joshua 24:31) – so the Jews of that generation were not engaged in any type of idolatry.

David – I feel I responded to the points that you raised and I hope that you will understand my position. If you still disagree with me – I encourage you to write again and articulate your position – but before you do that I would like you to consider one question:

If a person were to take a statue and stand it up before him – and this person would tell himself and his friends that this statue represents, is a manifestation of, is symbolic of, and/or is an incarnation of the God who created heaven and earth – and then this person would bow down toward the statue believing that he perceives the greatness of God in the beauty of the statue – would you consider this idolatry? Or more importantly – what do you believe that the Bible teaches about such an act – or does the Bible teach anything on this subject?

(My response would be that the Bible directly addresses this and teaches us that this is worship of the statue and not worship of God – but I wonder what your response would be).

Thanks again

Yisroel

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164 Responses to Representative Idolatry – Response to David

  1. Shomer says:

    Shalom Yisroel

    When I understand your point correctly there is a difference between representative idolatry and outright idolatry. And exactly this point I am working on currently. As a former Christian I was led by HaShem to leave my Christian indoctrination (church) and to come to myself/Himself. When I read your explanation about representative/outright idolatry, I come to the conclusion that Christianity is both at the same time.

    I see that the Christian divinity is a trinity, which makes it an outright idolatry (Shma) while on the other hand the fact that the Jewish ELOHIM and the pagan theos likewise were translated “God” (the triune Jesus is God, too) lets me recognize representative idolatry. When I consider the opposition of Christianity against HaShem and His people I personally come to the conclusion that representative idolatry is more dangerous than the outright one, which should be more obvious.

    While in obvious/outright idolatry a person or a nation is getting converted to another “God”, in representative idolatry I see that HaShem is getting converted in an image who had said;

    Deu 5:7 KJV Thou shalt have none other gods before me. – The “Ten Commandments” are valid for Israel only; pagans may serve any “God” (divinity, idol) they like. When I did research the Jewish background of my Christian faith I was stunned – I discovered the pagan background of my Christian faith – and repented.

    First “commandment” to Israel; Exo 20:2 KJV I am the LORD thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. – Which pagan (Christian) ever was brought by HaShem out of Egypt through Moses and Aaron?

    Even the “LORD” is a pagan mistranslation since “LORD” in Hebrew means “Baal”. Baal, the Lord, was served in Israel, too but HaShem didn’t really like it, as we can see. So, is serving the “LORD” representative or outright idolatry?

    In some Christian churches (Catholic, Orthodox, e. g.) I see a graven image in their respective churches. It is a suffering carved body hanging on two crossed bars. In Protestant churches, I sometimes see nothing like that and sometimes two crossed bars only, without a graven image. I can see from my own background that it is more dangerous to teach “Jesus” without a graven idol in the own church than with it. I personally made the experience that the false teaching about “Jesus” without a graven image makes the “believers” think that they are right because they do not have a graven image. But the doctrine only, within their brains, is much more dangerous and not less idolatrous.

    Serving “Jesus” is outright idolatry of a representative idol and representative idolatry of an outright one, likewise. And it does not matter whether the graven image was reformed in the reformation or whether Christians bow down before the crucifix or the two crossed bars only.

    As a Christian I was an idolater but I didn’t know. Today, I know what the other Christians don’t know, too. As soon as you can’t tell the difference between outright and representative any more you must have come to the perfection of idolatry – my opinion.

    Shomer

  2. David says:

    Hi Yisroel,

    Is it really necessary to open a new thread with each and every reply?

    Most if not all of your comments and questions have been addressed in at least one of the many previous threads on the same subject. I don’t know what can be gained by multiple threads on the same subject involving the same people but it is getting quite cumbersome to go back and dredge up my responses to your repeated comments and questions, not to mention your comments which you in some cases mistakenly or falsely deny you’ve made until I go back and show it to you.

    You wrote:

    My position is that this (representative idolatry) is possible, that it is considered idolatry by the Author of Scripture but that in a certain limited sense it is a bit less evil than outright idolatry.

    My response:
    You provide no Scriptural basis for your claim that if representative idolatry exists that it is any less serious than “outright” idolatry under any circumstance. Furthermore you are using non-scriptural terms with “representative” “confusion” and “outright idolatry.” So you can invent anything you want apart from Scripture, but that doesn’t make it so.

    You wrote:
    Do you believe that the Bible never addresses the issue of representative idolatry?

    My response:
    Correct, the bible never addresses the issue of representative idolatry. And furthermore, there are no cases of “representative” idolatry as you’ve described it found in the Hebrew Scriptures.

    You wrote:
    I don’t know how you could jump to the conclusion that the worship of the Trinitarian Christians is not idolatry.

    My response:
    As I’ve noted many times before, it could very well be characterized as idolatry or mistaken identity. But for the sake of argument I’ve already stated that we can characterize it as idolatry and if that’s the case we both have gone on record as saying that is unintentional idolatry and is not intentional idolatry; although you’ve flip flopped on that issue as well and now it seems you are once again saying it is intentional (but confused representative) idolatry based on the following statements.

    “In a comment I mistakenly used the word “unintentional” (in describing Christian idolatry) when I should have used the words “confused.””

    and

    “Christians also knowingly violate God’s commandment when they worship Jesus.”

    and

    “But this does not make the sin “unintentional” only “confused.””

    and

    “I realize that in many cases it is correct to label the sin as one of “confusion” rather than “unintentional.””

    Yisroel, it is not biblical to label sin as confusion or representative. It is biblical to label sin as intentional or unintentional.

    My question is, why are you flip flopping back and forth on the issue of whether or not mainstream Christianity is intentional or unintentional?

    You wrote:
    You seem to think that I believe that representative idolatry is not a rebellion against God. That is a mistake.

    My response:
    I think this is an example of one of the potential pitfalls of restarting so many threads on the same topic. You have lost track of my statements. I never said what you claim. But you said that representative idolatry is less serious than other idolatry. That is not based on the bible.

    Unintentional sin (including idolatry) is less serious than intentional sin. The “representative” argument is irrelevant with regards to the seriousness of the sin. It is not scriptural.

    You wrote:
    I believe that representative idolatry is a rebellion against God, not only in the sense that it is a direct violation of His commandment not to create an image but because it is worship of a different entity than God.

    My response:
    God never distinguishes between “representative” “confusion”, or any other kind of idolatry. Read the second commandment.

    You wrote:
    The letter of the Law only recognizes the mitigating factor of “unintentional” and this confusion wouldn’t qualify as unintentional because God explicitly commanded against it.

    My response:
    You are partially correct. And I’ve already spoken on this at great length in a previous thread. Many factors are considered to determine whether or not a sin is intentional or unintentional, such as, but not limited to: whether a people, prophet, king, or man heard directly from God himself. Those who are given more are held to a higher standard.

    There are times such as the case of the golden calf of Sinai, when a people who knew better and who had heard from God Himself with their own ears are guilty of intentional idolatry and no amount of enticement, deception, or confusion can mitigate the intentional sin to a characterization of unintentional. In that case the argument of representative or confusion if irrelevant.

    You wrote:
    But we see that when God judges, He considers factors beyond the simple line of intentional vs. unintentional.

    My response:
    You are confusing the characterization of the act of transgression with the judgment of the person or people. I’ve already spoken at length on this as well in a previous thread. God judges the whole person, but each sin is either intentional or unintentional. As I’ve noted before, most people also do acts of righteousness along with acts of transgression. Sometimes an individual act or pattern of acts of transgression or acts of righteousness is either so egregious or so outstanding as to determine the fate of the individual or people as in the case of the golden calf at Sinai and the ensuing 40 years.

    You wrote:
    I see this mainly in the difference of the way the Scriptures discuss the sin of the golden calves of Jeroboam and the way they discuss other idolatry.

    My response:
    As I’ve pointed out there is no difference in the way the bible discusses this idolatry (which you claim to be representative) as compared to any other idolatry. God never makes a distinction.

    You wrote:
    If you didn’t notice, most of my blog is dedicated to exposing the error of representative idolatry and demonstrating how despite the sophistry of theologians it is still rebellion against God.

    My response:
    What matters is whether or not it is intentional.
    Why bother with human inventions such as the concept of representative or confusion?

    You wrote:
    I will begin with Deuteronomy 4:15 because that is where I believe that God is commanding us against idolatry in a way that clearly includes representative idolatry.

    Why would someone who is consciously rebelling against God and rejecting Him give a hoot if God did or did not show Israel a form at Sinai?

    My response:
    Again, this appears to be a pitfall of the multiple threads on the same subject as this is basically the same thing you said in a previous thread which I’ve already addressed.

    I previously wrote on the subject of Deuteronomy 4 in a previous thread:

    “Contrary to your theory, one of the obvious purposes of not showing His form was that the worship relationship between God and His people “OF HIS VERY OWN POSSESSION” (4:20) would be set apart from the rest of the world which at that time was pagan. Even the Hebrews were once pagans in Egypt (Joshua 24:14) and could be argued still were engaging in paganism to a great extent when Moses was speaking to them in Deuteronomy. But, by being warned to NOT make idols in the form of anything since they had seen NO FORM, they would be a unique light unto the nations, and set apart from the pagan worship practices of the world. All other peoples displayed and manifested their god(s) in image form. If the Israelites did likewise, they would be no different.
    Unlike the other gods which the rest of the world worshiped at the time, the YHWH God is a devouring fire, a “JEALOUS” God (Deuteronomy 4:24 and the 2nd commandment). He and His people were therefore destined to be unique in many ways.

    Another purpose of God not showing them His form was individual and communal accountability. Knowing that God had not shown them His form, they would be completely without justification if they went after the gods of their ancestors from beyond the river or in Egypt or other nations whose gods were on full display in the form of their idols.

    Let’s put Deuteronomy in context as I suggested before. It is the last book of the Torah. The words spoken in Deuteronomy including this passage are Moses’ words to the Israelites on the east side of the Jordan prior to entering the Promised Land, prior to Joshua taking over. The older people he would have been speaking to who were between the ages of 40 and 60 would have been alive at the time of the golden calf incident at Sinai and many of the older ones would have even been alive while in Egypt worshiping the gods of Egypt alongside their parents. And many of those would have still remembered well their parents worshiping the gods of Egypt both while in Egypt and while in the desert.

    Deuteronomy 1:1,3
    “These are the words that Moses spoke to all Israel beyond the Jordan—in the wilderness, on the plain opposite Suph, between Paran and Tophel, Laban, Hazeroth, and Di-zahab. 3 In the fortieth year, on the first day of the eleventh month, Moses spoke to the Israelites just as the YHWH had commanded him to speak to them.”

    Now fast forward to Joshua 24 and they’re still in possession of the same idols their ancestors served beyond the River and in Egypt for crying out loud! And why would Joshua make the statement “if you are unwilling to serve the YHWH” if in fact what you say is true that they only wanted to serve the YHWH (by way of representative idolatry) as you claim was the case for their ancestors? And note that Joshua demands that they “put away the gods” their ancestors served. Keep in mind that this passage would have taken place historically some 40 years after Moses spoke to them in Deuteronomy and they were still in possession of their ancestral gods!

    Isn’t it time to accept the reality that the real reason God reminded them back in Deuteronomy that He hadn’t shown them His form at Mount Sinai was so that they would stop worshiping the “forms” of their ancestral gods who they knew from beyond the river and while in Egypt and the “forms” of the gods of the nations around them, who’s land they were about to enter? And in judges, they’re back at it again; they abandoned the YHWH and worshiped Baal and the Astartes. Then in the period of the kings, again, and again until they were exiled. The evidence is frequent and consistent.

    Evidently, one of the ways that it could be ensured that the Israelites and God would be seen as distinct and unique, set apart in a world of paganism would be that if they never saw His form. That way, even centuries later such as the case of Jeroboam’s sin in the “form” of calves, they would be without excuse, for not heeding the warning. As Joshua instructed, they must “put away the gods”, why? Because they saw no form at Mount Sinai. Pagans worship forms. God’s people do not.

    Joshua 24:14,15a
    14 “Now therefore revere the YHWH, and serve him in sincerity and in faithfulness; put away the gods that your ancestors served beyond the River and in Egypt, and serve the LORD. 15 Now if you are unwilling to serve the LORD, choose this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your ancestors served in the region beyond the River or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you are living

    And why would Joshua “link” inclining your hearts to the YHWH with the act of putting away the foreign gods if in fact as you claim their hearts were ALREADY inclined to the YHWH by way of representative idolatry?

    Joshua 24:23
    23 He said, “Then put away the foreign gods that are among you, and INCLINE YOUR HEARTS TO THE YHWH, the God of Israel.”

    You wrote in reference to Moses and the killing of the 3000:
    Why would he allow the worship to continue if he could physically remove the calf?

    My response:
    You believe that the worship was continuing while the Levites were executing the judgment of God. That’s just your unfounded speculation that leads you to the error of thinking that the killing of the 3000 must have come after the destruction of the golden calf. As noted earlier on a previous thread, a careful reading of Scripture indicates that the destruction of the golden calf could have come during or after, but not before.

    It is most unlikely that anyone would have been worshiping anything while the Levites were going from gate to gate putting their fellow Israelites to the sword.

    You wrote:
    Those worshiping the calf did not believe that the piece of metal took them out of Egypt but that the power who did take them out of Egypt was somehow embodied, represented, manifest, incarnated or hypostatically unified in the calf in front of them.

    So which power did they believe took them out of Egypt? Was it one of the Egyptian gods who were ALL afflicted at the time of the exodus (Exodus 12:12; Numbers 33:4). I don’t think that that would be logical even for people living 3000 years ago.

    My response:
    You are in denial of history. Embodiment means just that. The Egyptian god took on the physical form of the calf. They would have naturally believed that it was the Egyptian gods who they were in the custom of worshipping, who took them out of Egypt. And it was the Egyptian bull god who would “go before them” and lead them back to Egypt. As we know their hearts were turned back to Egypt (actually they probably never left Egypt in their hearts at that point). They still maintained the gods of Egypt even for another at least 80 years as documented in Joshua chapter 24. If their hearts were still inclined to the gods their ancestors worshiped in Egypt some 80 years later, imagine how rebellious to the YHWH and how lustful for Egypt’s gods they would have been at Sinai.

    You wrote:
    I pointed out to you that the worshipers of the Ba’al wanted the prophets of God dead while the worshipers of Jeroboam’s golden calves did not.

    My response:
    Actually I’m the one who pointed that out to you before you to me. Do you want me to cite it for you? Anyway, that lends more credibility to my argument that it is a mistake to think that one type of idolatry is any better or worse than another. In the case of Jezabel killing off all the prophets of God, it was a more serious and immediate threat not because of her Baal worship but because of the killing of God’s prophets. There was Baal worship at other times and in the southern kingdom and no distinction is made between the golden calves and Baal in terms of Baal being inherently worse idolatry than the calves.

    I pointed out to you that the worship of the golden calves is specifically mentioned as a reason why the northern kingdom was exiled.

    You wrote:
    You ask me if the idolatry of Solomon (1Kings 11:5) was representative idolatry and how determine which worship is representative and which is not.
    Response – Solomon’s worship was not representative idolatry simply because the verse explicitly names the idols and the name of the true God is not mentioned anywhere in association with these idols.

    My response:
    Thanks for answering. Ok, so according to you, anyone that mentions the name is engaging in representative idolatry and everyone else is not. Where does it state that in the bible?

    In any case, do you see that it is quite irrelevant; what matters is whether it is intentional or not.

    You wrote:
    This brings me to your next point when you argue against my theory by saying that God always defines idolatry as a rejection of God. Of-course! When one worships a calf, a person or the fictional character of some Greek book they are certainly rejecting God. And this simple fact does not change if the worshiper deceives him or herself into thinking that their object of worship is representative of God or not.

    My response:
    Reread your statement and tell me how you make sense of that.

    Can’t you see that if someone is “REJECTING” God, then he cannot at the same time think in his own mind that he is worshiping the same God whom it is that he is “REJECTING” regardless of whether it is defined as representative worship or something else? That’s why your argument of representative idolatry makes no sense at all and probably why it’s not in the bible.

    Maybe this is a good spot to reexamine Scripture rather than speculate on theory of representative confusion.

    Here’s what God says about the worship of the golden calf:

    Psalm 106 says, “THEY FORGOT GOD!” Note how Psalm 106 clearly and unequivocally elucidates the choice they made, how they “EXCHANGED” the glory of God for the ox, how they “FORGOT” God. They “FORGOT” Him, and even ABANDONED Him and SCOFFED at Him and didn’t even BELIEVE in Him as noted in Psalm 106, Deuteronomy 32 and 2 Kings 17.

    • Psalm 106: 19 They made a calf at Horeb
    and worshiped a cast image.
    20 They exchanged the glory of God
    for the image of an ox that eats grass.
    21 They forgot God, their Savior,
    who had done great things in Egypt,
    22 wondrous works in the land of Ham,
    and awesome deeds by the Red Sea.
    23 Therefore he said he would destroy them—
    had not Moses, his chosen one,
    stood in the breach before him,
    to turn away his wrath from destroying them.

    • Deuteronomy 32:15 “…He ABANDONED God who made him, and SCOFFED at the Rock of his salvation.”

    • 2 Kings 17:14 “…as their ancestors had been who did not “BELIEVE” in the YHWH their God.”

    Yisroel, how does one in his own mind worship (whether by way of representative or not) that which he does not believe in, and has abandoned and scoffed at, and ultimately has forgotten?

    Please explain.

    You wrote:
    You claim that I cited commentators that post-date the advent of Christianity in support of my theory of representative theology. Can you point out to me where I have ever cited any authority aside from the Bible?

    My response:
    You cited in one or more of the many previous threads which you’ve started on this subject:

    “The Jewish commentators on Scripture such as Malbim point out how the Scriptures lead us in this direction (that worship of the claves was a worship of a representation of God) – where you can find this online – I do not know – I am not familiar with online resources.”

    And

    “First let me tell you that Kuzari, Ibn Ezra, Nachmanidies, Radak, Ralbag, Malbim all explain the sin of the golden calf as worship of a representation of God”

    You wrote:
    If a person were to take a statue and stand it up before him – and this person would tell himself and his friends that this statue represents, is a manifestation of, is symbolic of, and/or is an incarnation of the God who created heaven and earth – and then this person would bow down toward the statue believing that he perceives the greatness of God in the beauty of the statue – would you consider this idolatry? Or more importantly – what do you believe that the Bible teaches about such an act – or does the Bible teach anything on this subject?

    (My response would be that the Bible directly addresses this and teaches us that this is worship of the statue and not worship of God – but I wonder what your response would be).

    My response:
    What you’ve described is idolatry.

    • David
      I apologize for inconveniencing you by opening new threads – The reason I do this is because this way more people are in on the discussion. Comments get lost in the background while new posts are read by more people. I do believe that our discussion is educational.
      The half answer you provided at the end of your comment tells me that you believe that representative idolatry exists the only difference we have is the fact that I believe it is considered a bit less evil in God’s eyes. You did not answer the second half of my question; namely where does the Bible address this? (- the situation where a person takes a statue and worships it in the belief that it represents the God of Israel.)
      You ask me why I flip flop on the question of Christianity being intentional or unintentional idolatry.
      It is this conversation with you that helped me see that the word “unintentional” is not the correct label for this type of worship. So in the past when I wrote that it was “unintentional” it would have been more accurate for me to say that it is mitigated by confusion but it is not unintentional. So I stand corrected on this.
      You see no justification in the Bible for my position which puts representative idolatry as something a bit less evil than outright idolatry.
      Let me recap where I see the Bible making this distinction.
      Read 2Kings 10:15-30. Here was a man who believed that he was zealous for God yet he still worshiped the golden calves. If this doesn’t describe an unintentional sin (and as I said – I do agree with you on this) it certainly sounds like it is describing confusion.
      When the Bible says that Jehu did not follow God with ALL of his heart (verse 31), the implication is that he was following God to some degree as the verses I quoted indicate.
      The fact that Joash, a worshiper of the golden calves, addresses the prophet of God as his father and chariot of Israel (2kings 13:14) or the fact that his father beseeched God without abandoning his worship of the golden calves again tells me that this was a confused worship.
      The description of the kings of the house of Jehu provided by Scripture is markedly different than the description of the Kings who worshiped Ba’al such as the kings of the house of Ahab and even within the house of Ahab the description of Jehoram, who did not worship the Ba’al, only the golden calves, is markedly different from the description of his father and brother (contrast 1Kings 22:54 against 2Kings 3:2,3).
      See also 1Kings 16:31 where the prophet says that it was light in Ahab’s eyes to follow the sins of Jeroboam and he went and worshiped the Ba’al. We clearly see that the sin of Jeroboam was in some sense “lighter” than the sin of worshiping the Ba’al.
      This last instance is not merely a mitigated judgment against a person – it is an indication that the sin itself is somehow lighter.
      This cannot be simply a quantitative difference (the worship of the Ba’al was more ubiquitous) – the indication is that this is a qualitative difference. The terms lighter and heavier indicate a qualitative difference.
      You ask why I bother to identify certain worship as representative idolatry if the only distinction the Bible makes is intentional vs. unintentional.
      I feel that I demonstrated that there is a slight distinction between the two in the Bible itself – and the reason I am highlighting this distinction is because the idolatry that is prevalent in our days is representative idolatry (worship of Jesus with the confused belief that this is somehow worship of God). I find that your position, which puts all idolatry in one box, is an encouragement to these idolaters to continue in their idolatry. They feel that since they want to honor God then their worship of Jesus is not idolatry. I am attempting to demonstrate that the Bible explicitly addresses this confused worship and considers it the same rejection and rebellion against God – while still recognizing that in a certain limited sense there is a mitigating factor. But again this mitigating factor is not significant as you correctly point out – because time and time again – the Scripture identifies worship of the golden calves as idolatry, and as a rebellion and a rejection of God.
      In response to my question about Deuteronomy 4:15 you cut and pasted your previous (non)response.
      You did not answer my question at all. Instead of lengthy quotations from Scripture can you please try to understand my question and answer it?
      Perhaps let me try to word my question differently – in the hope that it will lend clarity to the discussion.
      Imagine of someone were to create a statue as a representative of the God of Israel for the purpose of worship – would the commandment of Deuteronomy 4:15 not speak to this persons activity and command him to refrain?
      You wrote and I quote you “Can’t you see that if someone is “REJECTING” God, then he cannot at the same time think in his own mind that he is worshiping the same God whom it is that he is “REJECTING” regardless of whether it is defined as representative worship or something else? That’s why your argument of representative idolatry makes no sense at all and probably why it’s not in the bible.”
      You don’t seem to understand Trinitarian Christianity. These people want to honor God but they also want to honor Jesus. So they worship Jesus and tell themselves that he is in some mysterious way one and the same as God. This is a rejection of God. If they would be fully accepting of God they would see no need in Jesus. The same applies to the golden calves. These people thought that their worship of the golden calves was somehow associated with their worship of God (perhaps their theologians used arguments such as “embodiment, hypostatic union and incarnation”). But in fact God identifies this as a rejection of God because if they fully accepted God they would find nothing in the golden calves. It is also a rebellion against God, not only because it violates His direct command but also because in essence it is a lust after an entity that is apart from God.
      When I cited the Jewish commentators it was not to establish my position. I never expect a Christian to accept the authority of the rabbis. I was simply responding to your question as to whether my position was accepted in mainstream Judaism – read your question here –
      https://yourphariseefriend.wordpress.com/2015/03/13/devotion-and-rationalizations-excerpt-from-kosher-reality/#comment-17659
      My citation of the rabbinic commentaries was simply a response to your request for information – it was NOT an attempt to establish the veracity of what I am saying – for that I appeal only to the Bible.
      Going back to my question – But again – I will word it differently in the hope of adding clarity to this discussion.
      You seem to be of the opinion that Trinitarian Christianity may or may not be idolatry – assuming that it is (and I have no doubt about this) – where in the Bible is there a commandment against the worship of Jesus as an incarnation of God?
      Thanks again for the time and effort that you have invested in this discussion
      Yisroel

      • Dina says:

        Why does this have to be so complicated, David? Deuteronomy 4 teaches us that we are forbidden to associate God with any form whatsoever, period, end of story.

        • David says:

          Hi Dina, I agree.

          But Mr. Blumenthal says just the opposite. It is not the end of story.

          Mr. Blumenthal cites Deuteronomy 4:15 in support of his theory.

          He wants to believe that the bible supports a hybrid category of idolatry which is judged less severe because of his theorized concept of “confusion.”

          I on the other hand argue that the only distinction or characterization to be made regarding the sin of idolatry supported in the bible and the law of Moses is intentional verses unintentional.

          Rather than concentrating on the issue of intentional verses unintentional, Mr. Blumenthal seems to be governed almost exclusively by whether or not there was confusion and considers the aspect of intentionality as an afterthought.

          • Dina says:

            Rabbi Blumenthal is trying to be charitable to Christians and mitigate (if only slightly) the horrific sin of idol worship in which they are engaged. As far as I can see, he has backed up everything he said with Scriptural citations.

            Trinitarian worship is unequivocally prohibited according to Deuteronomy 4. Why do you condone it, even as you don’t practice it?

          • David says:

            Hi Dina,

            On the contrary. Rabbi Blumenthal is trying to rewrite history and read things into Scripture in his effort to be charitable to the Israelites portrayed in the Hebrew Scriptures by equating the golden calves worship at Sinai, and Jeroboam son of Nebat, and the idolatry in judges and possibly elsewhere as something less than it is.

            He does this (in his own mind) by equating it with the sin of worship of the Trinity and says basically words to the effect, “…See the idolatry of the Hebrews in the above circumstances is less serious than the idolatry of Baal for example and is not any worse than the idolatry of the trinity.”

            He argues that in the case of Baal worship the Hebrews were NOT confused and in the case of the golden calf, those same Hebrews were somehow confused. Really they just wanted to worship the YHWH, except of course when they were worshiping Baal.

            He goes on to claim that because they were confused (at least part of the time) the worship of the golden calves (although not in the case of Baal), the golden calf idolatry is a less serious form of idolatry than the Baal worship.

            But to date there has been no support of that theory in Scripture.

            Additionally he has flip flopped on the issue of whether or not the trinity worship is an intentional sin or an unintentional sin. At first it was intentional, then it wasn’t and now it is again.

            So, currently he believes Trinitarians are intentionally sinning.

            I have been consistent throughout, that Trinitarians are unintentionally sinning.

          • Dina says:

            David, this is disgraceful. Rabbi B. has admitted his error regarding intentional sin for Christians; in fact he used the words “I stand corrected”–and you sneer at him for flip flopping. I rather admire someone who is humble enough and courageous enough to admit his error.

            You have been steadfastly consistent in refusing to acknowledge your error even when the evidence is shoved under your nose. For example, you have yet to retract your false statement that Jews massacred 2000 early Christians, despite the fact that Yehuda presented evidence that this claim is unsubstantiated. (Doubtless you have forgotten this particular painful dialogue we had long ago.)

            The fact is, I find your whole discussion too pedantic for my taste (you might prefer the word “nuanced”). Deuteronomy 4 is very clear. Trinitarian Christians are engaged in a forbidden worship. Why do you condone their worship even if you don’t practice it? That is the question you have not yet answered.

          • Dina says:

            Furthermore, you need to ask yourself why Rabbi B. would want to mitigate certain instances of idol worship, such as the sin of the golden calf, and not others. There is no ulterior motive here, just truth seeking.

          • David
            from the beginning the purpose of my argument was not to “whitewash” the Israelites – although I do believe that their sin was less grievous than you seem to believe – but rather my purpose is to expose your whitewash of Christian Trinitarian worship for what it is – false and unbiblical.
            And according to your own definitions – how is it that Trinitarians are unintentionally sinning? Do they not know that a man is not God? do they not know the prohibition against idolatry? do they not realize that they are turning their backs on a worship that existed before Jesus came on the scene and that still exists in the hearts of all who worship the God of Israel without confusion – and they turn toward worship of a man? Why is the confusion put upon them by the Christian theologians any more weighty in your eyes than the confusion put upon the prophet sent by God by the false prophet in 1Kings 13:18?

          • David
            You are mischaracterizing my position. I never spoke about the aspect of intentionality as an “afterthought” – I always acknowledged that it is the more significant distinction in the sin of idolatry.
            You also mischaracterize your position – It is you that support this “hybrid category of idolatry” by refusing to label Trinitarian Christianity as intentional idolatry. My position is that confused idolatry is still intentional idolatry.

          • David says:

            Hi Yisroel,

            I notice you’re still avoiding my question.

            Anyway, regarding your question to me,

            I believe that the worship of the Trinity of mainstream Christianity is for the most part unintentional sin, as you admitted also, not too long ago.

            Mainstream Christianity worships what they believe to be the YHWH, not an idol, not an image, but the actual YHWH. They claim that the YHWH is the Trinity which they worship.

            The Hebrews of the Hebrew Scriptures on the other hand worshiped a cast image of an idol, something they knew was not the YHWH, which is why their idolatry was intentional. There is not a single verse which describes it as “representative” idolatry, but whether or not it was as you say “representative idolatry” is irrelevant for our discussion here.

            The fact of the matter is that they knew, if they had eyes to see, that the cast image of a bull which they were worshiping was an idol, something prohibited by the second commandment.

            Furthermore, unlike your claims of representative idolatry regarding the Hebrews, Mainstream Christianity does not claim that Jesus is “representing” the Trinity or “representing” the YHWH. It claims that he is the YHWH; or more specifically he is the second person of the Trinity/YHWH.

            As you can see, then, and as you once admitted, the Trinity worship of mainstream Christianity is best described as unintentional sin.

          • David
            Which question of yours am I avoiding?
            So according to your opinion if the Jews would have believed that the golden calf was a second person in trinity of the godhead then they would have been unintentional sinners? And you did not answer my question about why the confusion created by the Christian theologians is considered by you to be more of a mitigating factor than the confusion created by the false prophet in 1Kings 13:18

          • David says:

            Hi Yisroel,

            Regarding your comments about intentional sin, unintentional sin, and your made up categories of representative sin and confusion sin,

            My observation is that you treat the intentionality of sin as an afterthought. You spend all your energies on non biblical invented categories.

            Contrary to your claim, I, unlike you, have no hybrid category for sin. The fact that we now differ as to whether worship of the Trinity is intentional or unintentional does not establish a new hybrid category.

            It is, as it always was, either intentional or unintentional;

            nothing new there.

          • David
            A very interesting observation – as I pointed out – there are many articles on this blog decrying what I now call confused idolatry – and yet you “observe” that I spend “all” of my energy on “non-biblical invented categories”
            You do treat Trinitarian Christianity different than you treat other idolaters – THAT is an observable fact. Wouldn’t you agree that a greater biblical distinction exists between idol worship and non-idol worship than the distinction that exists between intentional and non-intentional idol worship?

          • David says:

            Hi Dina,

            The reason why Rabbi Blumenthal has flip flopped (twice), now back to the original is that he’s not letting the bible drive his position. He’s letting his own inventions and that of his cited commentators (which he once denied he cited by the way until I showed it to him) and which he now wants to distance himself form, to drive his position.

            It’s clear to me that he’s simply modifying his position as I point out holes in it.

            I commented that he is likely just trying to whitewash the sins of the Israelites in the Hebrew Scriptures to equate mainstream Christianity’s worship of the Trinity with the Hebrew worship of the golden calves.

          • Sharbano says:

            Since I haven’t been involved in the conversation I’m not able to follow along that well. I just wanted to make the point about “commentators”. Granted the Sages and Rabbis have been called commentators but that English word is really a misnomer. That English word denotes someone who is ONLY giving an opinion and little else. Actually the commentators, like Rashi for example weren’t merely giving opinions. They were reiterating what has been taught from generation to generation. It’s no different than what happens in Universities. A Professor will teach a class, say Physics, or even say American History, and that class learns the material. A student will continue in his University classes and at some point will also teach a class. It’s handed down generation to generation that way. Now, what Rashi and all the other “learned” was the entire material. A great many had memorized the entire Torah, Talmud, Midrash etc. I recall reading a letter the Vilna Gaon sent to his wife and told her to be sure and have the children Memorize the entire Torah. This was a common occurrence. Therefore when people mention “commentators” it doesn’t reflect the same meaning in Jewish circles. When commentator is mentioned it means the man has the recall of vast amounts of information.

          • Dina says:

            David, this is a classic case of projection. You think Trinitarian worship is not so bad, so in your mind comparing the sin of the golden calf to Christianity is whitewashing the actions of the Israelites. I hope Rabbi B. will forgive me for presuming to say that he sees Christianity as the horrific crime against God that it is and that he does not see a comparison as whitewashing in the least bit! If the Israelites were practicing something akin to Christianity, then they were involved in a disgusting bit of spiritual adultery, however confused or misguided or whatever. I am sure Rabbi B. would agree (am I right to say so, Rabbi B.?).

            But I think all this is beside the point that Deuteronomy 4 unequivocally forbids it, so why do you condone it (even as you don’t practice it)? This is the third time I am putting the question to you. You have not addressed it the previous two times.

          • David says:

            Hi Yisroel,

            You answered and I (just now) responded to the question on the Scriptural fact that the Israelites “forgot” God. I missed your reply, my apologies.

            On an item above,
            You wrote:

            Wouldn’t you agree that a greater biblical distinction exists between idol worship and non-idol worship than the distinction that exists between intentional and non-intentional idol worship?

            My response:

            No.

            You are comparing apples to oranges.

            We are talking about idolatry.

            In that context, the critical factor is whether or not the idolatry is intentional or unintentional.

            compare apples to apples and oranges to oranges.

            If we were talking about homicide,
            One can kill someone intentionally or unintentionally.

            And we are not in a discussion about comparing various types of sin such as homicide to idolatry. We are talking about the sin of idolatry and characterizing idolatry. You invented a category of “confusion” where non exists in the bible.

            So, again, the critical factor is whether or not the idolatry is intentional or unintentional.

          • David Hmm – so you believe that the distinction between intentional and non-intentional idolatry is greater than the distinction between idolatry and non-idolatry. This explains why you view Christians who are idol-worshipers in a more favorable light than Jews who are not. And you are trying to convince us that it is your position that is rooted in the Biblical text? Again – the discussion began about Trinitarian Christianity. If I am not mistaken it is your comment from March 16 2015 on the post “Devotion and Rationalizations” – where you flip flop on the issue of Trinitarian Christianity being idolatry or not that triggered this conversation – THAT is the context of our conversation.

          • David says:

            Hi Yisroel,

            Nice try. But I never said that idol worship was less serious than non idol worship.

            I said that intentional sin is worse than unintentional sin. So therefore comparing apples to apples, intentional idol worship which is what the Hebrews did is worse than the unintentional idol worship of mainstream Christians who worship the Trinity.

            And by the way I’ve never “flip flopped” as to the issue of the sin of Trinity being unintentional.

            I’ve stated from the beginning that I consider it to be better characterized as a case of mistaken identity but for the sake of argument I accept that we can classify it as idolatry.

            And I still hold to that opinion.

          • Dina says:

            Sorry for intruding, Rabbi B., but David, does Deuteronomy 4 leave room for “mistaken identity”? Is there any place in the Hebrew Bible that says that worship of an entity other than God is not idolatry if you thought it was God? Like, if I thought my cat was God it would not be idolatry?

            How can you condone Trinitarian worship despite the fact that Deuteronomy 4 explicitly forbids it? (Sorry for intruding, Rabbi B.) God says no way, nothing doing; David says, it’s okay.

            (Frankly, since Christians can read Deuteronomy 4 for themselves, then they have no excuse to go on worshiping a man as God.)

          • David I never said that you flip flopped on Trinitarian Christianity being intentional – but you have flip flopped as to whether it is idolatry or not – here is a quote from you “Also considering the claimed idolatry of mainstream Christianity that’s a label from mainstream Judaism. After thinking about it, In reality it’s more of a case of mistaken identity. Mainstream Christianity seeks God but misidentifies him and gets accused of idolatry.”

            How do you square this with this other statement of yours – “Second, given that the subject receives a command from their God and understands the command and understands that the command comes from God, and that the subject then freely with forethought, and full knowledge and understanding, chooses to disobey the command we can conclude that the sin is in fact “intentional.” All of the subjects in the above 4 cases freely chose to disobey God. No one forced them against their own will. The fact that they were enticed or even tricked to some degree doesn’t change the fact that it was a free will decision based on a full and accurate knowledge and understanding of the command, which they then decided to disobey; and in their cases, a command that came directly from God’s mouth to their ears making any later enticement/deception insignificant in terms of the question of intentionality.”

            Being that Protestant Christians understand that the Jewish Scriptures are the word of God and being that the Jewish Scriptures explicitly teach that it is idolatry to worship anyone but God Himself – why do you consider the Christian worship of Jesus to be “unintentional” – just because their theologians tricked them into saying to themselves that Jesus is God?

          • David says:

            Hi Yisroel,

            That seems to be very consistent with what I wrote earlier.

            You cited a previous post of mine as:
            “Also considering the claimed idolatry of mainstream Christianity that’s a label from mainstream Judaism. After thinking about it, In reality it’s more of a case of mistaken identity. Mainstream Christianity seeks God but misidentifies him and gets accused of idolatry.”

            And this is what I a previously wrote in my post above, months after the cited post:

            “I’ve stated from the beginning that I consider it to be better characterized as a case of mistaken identity but for the sake of argument I accept that we can classify it as idolatry.
            And I still hold to that opinion.”

            I’ll let the read be the judge of whether I flip flopped as you claim.

      • David says:

        Hi Yisroel,

        You are basically in the process of repeating yourself at this point. I’ve already addressed most if not all of your points above in one of the many previous threads. Your arguments in regards to the passages in kings has been thoroughly discussed and you misunderstand totally the point regarding “rejection” of God as it relates to the Hebrews.

        So, let me just make one point at a time regarding the many points and questions you have not addressed.

        You claim that the Hebrews did not reject God, that they did not forget God. I have repeatedly asked you to defend this claim as recently as this or the previous thread. And as far back as two or three threads ago I wrote this:

        “You wrote, “The fact that Aaron tells the people that the festival will be for God (Exodus 32:5) tells us that the people had not forgotten about God.” Yisroel, Psalm 106 says just that, “THEY FORGOT GOD!” Note how Psalm 106 clearly and unequivocally elucidates the choice they made, how they “EXCHANGED” the glory of God for the ox, how they “FORGOT” God. They “FORGOT” Him, and even ABANDONED Him and SCOFFED at Him and didn’t even BELIEVE in Him as noted in Psalm 106, Deuteronomy 32 and 2 Kings 17.
        • Psalm 106: 19 They made a calf at Horeb
        and worshiped a cast image.
        20 They exchanged the glory of God
        for the image of an ox that eats grass.
        21 They forgot God, their Savior,
        who had done great things in Egypt,
        22 wondrous works in the land of Ham,
        and awesome deeds by the Red Sea.
        23 Therefore he said he would destroy them—
        had not Moses, his chosen one,
        stood in the breach before him,
        to turn away his wrath from destroying them.
        • Deuteronomy 32:15 “…He ABANDONED God who made him, and SCOFFED at the Rock of his salvation.”
        • 2 Kings 17:14 “…as their ancestors had been who did not “BELIEVE” in the YHWH their God.”

        Yisroel, what is your position in response to the above citations in light of your claim that the people had not “forgotten” God?

        • David
          At the pain of repeating myself – my position is as follows – if you would have asked the people they would have said that they did not forget God – but the Bible is teaching us that they were fooling themselves and they did forget God – much like Trinitarian Christians in their worship of Jesus.

          • David says:

            Hi Yisroel,

            Then you are contradicting Scripture.

            And there is no suggestion as you, without justification claim, that “if you would have asked the people…” they would also have contradicted Scripture.

            The Psalmist is saying just the opposite:
            “They forgot God, their savior.”
            And you are saying
            “They did not forget God.”

            You have no biblical basis to make that claim.

            Furthermore, Scripture never makes the claim or suggestion, as you are, that,

            “They were “fooling” themselves.”

            That is your fantasy non biblical twisting of the bible to support your non biblical “confusion” theory. There is not a single verse which supports your theory of confusion.

            Also, how can one worship God (as you claim they were doing) if one doesn’t even “believe” in God, has “abandoned” God, “scoffed” at God, and “exchanged the glory of God for an ox” as cited above?

          • David
            I already gave you the Biblical basis for my claim – does 2Kings 10:16 describe someone who doesn’t believe in God? How about 2Kings 13:14?
            A quick lesson on Biblical Hebrew the word for “not believe” is more correctly translated “not trust” – it is the same word used in Numbers 20:12 – would you say that when Moses and Aaron sinned that they did not believe in God?

          • David
            If you would ask Christians if they are idol worshipers or not – what would they say? Would they not contradict Scripture?

  3. Dina says:

    Following.

  4. David says:

    Hi Yisroel,

    There are a few items I missed in my reply above.

    In the previous thread, I addressed your comments concerning the passage of Deuteronomy 4, specifically regarding the fact that God did not show his form to the Israelites and why that was. But keep in mind that Moses DID be-hold His form (Numbers 12:8).

    This is what I said:
    “But God did give the Israelites visual and audible manifestations so that they would acknowledge that the YHWH is God (Deuteronomy 4:20). God evidently accounted for the fact that they harbored deep pagan roots and beliefs and that it would be impossible for the Israelites to remain true to Him if He didn’t give them something physical to identify with. This is probably why He gave them the tabernacle to be in their midst, the pillar of cloud and fire, the ark with the stone tablets of the covenant, the priests, the Levites, Moses, etc. all which should have helped them break away from their pagan influences.”

    You wrote in response:
    “You present a theory that the reason that God had the Jews make a tabernacle and an ark of the covenant, why He put a pillar of cloud and fire in their midst was because of their pagan inclinations. How then do you explain the fact that the prophets predicted a physical Temple in the Messianic era (e.g. Isaiah 2:1) when such pagan influences will be eradicated?”

    My response:
    My explanation as noted above was in describing God’s actions with regards to manifesting his form to the Israelites in the context of setting apart a people for Himself, a people who were rooted in paganism.

    I was not giving a list of all the possible reasons God may decide to build a temple either then or in the Messianic age to come. My response was limited to why God would manifest his thundering voice from the fire at Mount Sinai, why there would be stone tablets of the words that He spoke, why the Levites would minister to Him, etc. etc. At the time, it served a specific purpose related to the human need to physically see and physically experience the world around them, something we still have today to some degree. Paganism naturally incorporated this human need.

    God met the people where they were spiritually, understanding their need. But rather than allowing them to copy the practices of the pagans (which they did), He developed a new system, a system that was not devoid of physical manifestations of Himself but with other manifestations to focus their attention on Him and not on their pagan gods.

    Regarding the Messianic age and the temple, I don’t want to get off track here because there are numerous theories about that age which don’t really affect our argument one way or the other. That not-withstanding, there are numerous possible reasons why God would continue with a temple in the Messianic age. While it is true that man can and does learn and grow spiritually over the centuries, it is also true that our nature remains the same. It may be the case that some may always need some physical reminder. Did you forget that the Jews would still be set apart? Set apart from whom? And did you forget that the foreign nations of the Gentiles will come paying tribute? Pay tribute to whom and where? And that the Gentiles will be led to God? Led to God through whom and by what? And we could go on and on about the benefits of having a temple in the Messianic age all of which do not negate my argument as to why God established the tabernacle among the Israelites at Mount Sinai when He did.

    Remember also that God established His tabernacle in the midst (dead center) of the people as a visual reminder. When they broke camp and were on the march, the ark remained dead center. And often times when they went to war some reminder was brought along to remind them of their God in their midst.

    During the times of battle they would often bring along a visual reminder in the form of the staff or ark, or priests, horns, etc. This was for them as well as their enemies because people tend to believe what they can see and hear.

    Did you forget that Solomon referred to the temple (and Jerusalem where God selected a place for his name) as a focal point for people to pray in the direction of, when they are separated from the temple and Jerusalem? Even Gentiles are encouraged to pray towards the temple. Did you forget that God at that time would not actually “live” in the temple but that God would hear their prayer from heaven?

    God has provided physical reminders in the past to lead others to Him as appropriate and it is totally within His sovereign right to continue to do so as He sees fit.

    • David
      My problem with your theory is that you seem to posit that the Temple/Tabernacle is some sort of lesser way to relate to God – I do not see this theory proven from the words of Scripture. where in Scripture do you see that it is somehow superior to relate to God without a Temple?
      Perhaps you can interpret Jeremiah 3:16 to support your theory – but it still has the physical city of Jerusalem as a focal point.
      Where in Scripture do you see that a service of God that is expressed in the physical world is somehow inferior to a spiritualized worship?

    • Sharbano says:

      What is the basis for assuming the Israelites were steeped in paganism. How was that they copied the practice of pagans.

      What we do know of the purpose for His actions at Sinai is as Moshe told the Israelites in Devarim 4. Ask of the days past, whether there has been any such thing as great, or been heard of. Did any people hear the voice of G-d speaking from the midst of fire and live.

      It is a standard by which to measure any other claim. He says compare that event to all of history and did it ever again happen. It is because of this unique event that the people would believe Him then, and forever. The belief that a messiah would come doesn’t have any comparison to that event, subsequently the belief cannot withstand the test of time. The testimony of one doesn’t outweigh the testimony of an entire nation.

      • Eliyah Lion says:

        Sharbano your view is that Devarim 4 is the centre of all the Judaic faith. Than how a so powerful event did not changed the People from within and make it holy. Why still the People entered in idolatry. You see an Elohim with no form and you accused the saints-elect of idolatry because we see as Mosheh saw for it is written:

        “Hear now My words:
        If there is a prophet among you,
        I, YHWH, make Myself known to him in a vision;
        I speak to him in a dream.
        7 Not so with My servant Moses;
        He is faithful in all My house.
        8 I speak with him face to face,
        Even plainly, and not in dark sayings;
        And he sees the form of YHWH
        Why then were you not afraid
        To speak against My servant Moses?” (Numbers 12:8)

        This passage contradicts your false accusations and your misconceived Jewish faith. If you are honest how can you explain that there is no form of YHWH when Scriptures says:

        8 I speak with him face to face,
        Even plainly, and not in dark sayings;
        And he sees the form of YHWH

        Again you can not properly understand Holy Scriptures without the Ruah Holy being with you and in you for She is the RUAH EMET who Herself produced the Holy Oral and Written Torah. You theory that a plain human spirit can properly understand Holy Scriptures is like saying that the Ocean can enter a bottle of water. That is pure non sense.

        YAHUSHUO the DABAR Elohim made flesh in the MESSIAH Yahshuo is the One living Torah full of the Ruah Holy capable of transforming our human mind in elohim mind like Mosheh was. In this reality can we be truly of those capable to reign in the world to come.

        Your physical realm is subject to a multitude of spiritual realms more powerful and only in the Promise of the Spiritual-Resurrection-Transfiguration can our world be unified with the Yerushala’im from above and than truly the Mountain of YHWH will reign in this realm with the Glory of YHWH lighting the whole world.

        For what Mosheh saw face to face the form of YHWH was the Eternal Messiah Elohim the one that you rejected the chiefstone of the New Temple!!

        • Sharbano says:

          Is that ALL you can do is INCESSANTLY repeat yourself. Yeah, we know YOU and ONLY YOU are capable of understanding Torah. You have been shown time and time again that which is NOT vague but written with the clarity of Torah. You are incapable of understanding the OBVIOUS and want US to believe you have Any understanding of the spiritual. You have no grasp of either.

          One thing is for certain and without question. Each and every time you are LITERALLY and UNAMBIGUOUSLY proven wrong you divert to another and different subject. You claimed Ezekiel was speaking of the Second Temple but Isaiah proves you wrong once again. It’s been over and over again. You were unable to come with a rebuttal to Stephen and changed the subject again and again.

          Your only recourse is the same: You want to claim knowledge with hollow words such as this:

          [Again you can not properly understand Holy Scriptures without the Ruah Holy being with you and in you for She is the RUAH EMET who Herself produced the Holy Oral and Written Torah. You theory that a plain human spirit can properly understand Holy Scriptures is like saying that the Ocean can enter a bottle of water. That is pure non sense.

          YAHUSHUO the DABAR Elohim made flesh in the MESSIAH Yahshuo is the One living Torah full of the Ruah Holy capable of transforming our human mind in elohim mind like Mosheh was. In this reality can we be truly of those capable to reign in the world to come.]

          Now you try to make the claim that You yourself are capable of speaking with Hashem the same as Moshe had done. This is the epitome of Chutzpah. The text is plain here but Again and Again and Again you literally Rewrite the text. As before you cannot see past the immediate text that is in front of you. What the text DOES say is:

          Mouth to mouth do I speak to him, in a clear vision and not in riddles.

          Return to Shemot and understand your non-understanding.
          Then I shall remove My hand and you will see My back, but My face may NOT be seen.

          You see, you are no different than any other Xtian. When seeing a verse that seems that it may support their beliefs they JUMP on it, without the benefit of knowledge of the entire Torah. Finally I really think your Hebrew understanding is arranging sentences using Strong’s Hebrew Lexicon. You make far far too many errors for someone who is fluent in the language. You have claimed the knowledge of Ancient Hebrew. Well, were did your knowledge of Ancient Hebrew come from. Your statement of knowledge causes suspicions on its own.

          • Eliyah Lion says:

            Sharbano you are full of contradictions and again you keep diverting the subject each time a bring Scriptures proving you wrong.

            “Hear now My words:
            If there is a prophet among you,
            I, YHWH, make Myself known to him in a vision;
            I speak to him in a dream.
            7 Not so with My servant Moses;
            He is faithful in all My house.
            8 I speak with him face to face,
            Even plainly, and not in dark sayings;
            And he sees the form of YHWH
            Why then were you not afraid
            To speak against My servant Moses?” (Numbers 12:8)

            To Mosheh, YHWH shows everything not speaking in riddles or parables or dark sayings but to the people and those who are not pure of hearts it is hidden because their hearts is so full of themselves and their misconceptions and deformations, that is Deuteronomy 4 given to carnal minds un-purified by the fire of the Ruah Holy.

            For your part you can not stand that a man of Jewish blood is Christian and have a relation with YHWH Elohim. You are jealous and denigrate me and the saints because YHWH chose us and show us his Glory. Jealous that is your heart, just repent and may be one day you will see the Glory of Eloah.

            To those who loves YHWH the tree of life is in their hearts!!

          • Sharbano says:

            Have you not noticed that what you accuse others of is what you yourself have done. The proof of This is yourself taking up This subject, since you were unable to answer the previous.

            You have cited Bamidbar but nowhere does Moshe get his information from Ruach (Wind). He speaks Directly to Hashem, mouth to mouth and without your J’sus.

            Are you still claiming You speak to Hashem in the same manner.

          • Jim says:

            Lion,

            With all your thin-skinned criticism of those who speak against the supposed tzaddikim, Jesus and Paul, it would be proper for you to stop attributing bad motives to your opponents, whom you do not know and whose hearts you cannot know. You are not God to know that Sharbano writes from jealousy. You, who are so concerned that people answer your arguments and not your person, look to your own house.

            Jim

          • Eliyah Lion says:

            Jim, Paul said it so truly when he wrote to the Romans:

            ”11 I say then, have they stumbled that they should fall? Certainly not! But through their fall, to provoke them to jealousy, salvation has come to the Gentiles. 12 Now if their fall is riches for the world, and their failure riches for the Gentiles, how much more their fullness!

            13 For I speak to you Gentiles; inasmuch as I am an apostle to the Gentiles, I magnify my ministry, 14 if by any means I may provoke to jealousy those who are my flesh and save some of them. 15 For if their being cast away is the reconciling of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead?”

          • Sharbano says:

            This is a common reference to “non-believers” that the testimony of Xtians will provoke to jealousy. Has anyone who suggest this bothered to understand the word. To be jealous would mean I would “want” what you have. Nothing could be farther from the truth. None here are jealous in wanting Your ruach.

          • Jim says:

            Lion,

            Bibble babble will not release you to ascribe to your opponents whatever motivations you imagine to your opponents. By attributing to Sharbano a motive, you give yourself license to dismiss him, because rather than examining the arguments, you dismiss him according to motivations you cannot know. It is God Who knows the heart, and unless I am mistaken, you are not He. If you are going to comment upon those who address your arguments rather than you as a person, it is incumbent upon you to do the same.

            Jim

          • Sharbano, Concerned Reader, Jim, Dina and all others who are inspired to respond to Eliyahu Lion At this point I think it would be premature to expect Eliyahu to hear what you are saying – he has demonstrated time and time again that he cannot hear anything but himself. I do encourage you to respond to his points because other people are reading this and you have all written words that people can learn from and I hope you will continue to do so. Thank you for all the work that you are putting in to articulate the truth. Perhaps eventually – even Eliyahu will see the light – but I will remind you that the Scriptures leave the least hope for the false prophets.

          • Eliyah Lion says:

            Yisroel your accusations are grave and the fact that you made them show how desperate you are. You are convoking your troops to combat what is spoken in Holy Scriptures by the Ruah Holy.

            Constat d’échec we say in french. You can not yourself combat me for you are confused and amazed that a simple man can respond to your sophism and your diversions of the truth of Scriptures and the many challenges they pose to you.

            I know YHWH and I know his Name. You do not know Him nor know his Name banned by decree from Shama’im to even dare to pronounce is Holy name. Eliyahu combating against the Baal (Lord) worshipers invoke the Holy name of YHWH to make the holy fire descend on the altar. It is all over again history repeating itself. The Baal worshipers and they are many with your spirit of Jezabel are diverting the sons of Israel and Yehudah from the true Doctrine and Emounah (Faith). You are banning them to enter in Alliance of Love with YHWH

            The Messiah was right to accuse you of working for Heylel the son of dawn having been thrown down into this earth. The prophet John (Yohan) warned us about you:

            8 “I know your works. See, I have set before you an open door, and no one can shut it; for you have a little strength, have kept My word, and have not denied My name. 9 Indeed I will make those of the synagogue of Satan, who say they are Jews and are not, but lie—indeed I will make them come and worship before your feet, and to know that I have loved you. 10 Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth.” (Apocalypse of John chap.3)

            Ameen!!

          • Eliyahu Can you give me one good reason why I should be “desperate”? I have God, His Torah and His son (Israel) on my side – all you have is your claim that the ruach is speaking to you – a claim by the way which does not need a little angel, a big angel or anyone else to produce – it just needs a bit of self-deception.

          • Sharbano says:

            {The Messiah was right to accuse you of working for Heylel the son of dawn having been thrown down into this earth. The prophet John (Yohan) warned us about you:}

            And here we all thought that the king of Babylon was dead. Apparently he lives and the Babylon exile must still be upon all of us. If This king can be so accomplished maybe we should follow him instead.

          • Eliyah Lion says:

            For Isaiah the prophet said:
            12 “O how you fell out of heavens
            Heylel=הילל son of dawn,
            Have been hewed down toward the earth
            You who predominates over nations;
            13 And you said in your heart
            ‘The heavens I will ascend out of a vortex toward dual stars of EL,
            I will exalt my throne and sit in a mountain of assembly
            In dual extremities of the north
            14 I will ascend on dual high places of thick cloud
            I will be similar to Elyon.’
            15 Only unto Sheol you will be brought down
            To dual extremities of the pit. (Isaiah, chap.14)

            Clearly Sharbano like other passages of Holy Scriptures you see everything in linear one plane view. It is normal what else can you see if you do not have the Ruah Emet. Continue in your pride and see with shades.

            But here an honest mind will see that the prophet takes the type of the king of Babylon to applied to the spirit behind this king who is Heylel himself. The references to the ascension of the heavens through a vortex toward dual stars of EL can not be done by a human but can be tried by an angelic power.

            Also the fact that you dare say: ”If This king can be so accomplished maybe we should follow him instead.”

            You reveal here unconsciously whom you are serving Baal instead of YHWH
            As proof of that like I said it before you can not even invoke Elohei Israel for you do not know his Name and you can not even pronounce it.

            Bless is He who comes in the Name of YHWH!!

          • Sharbano says:

            You write what You WANT it to mean, but what does Isaiah say this is about.

            And it shall come to pass on the day the Lord allows you to rest from your sorrow and from your shuddering, and from the hard work that you were made to serve.
            And you shall bear this parable against the king of Babylon, and you shall say, “How has the dominator ceased, has ceased the haughty one!

            It may work for those ignorant of Torah, as J’sus followers were, to begin at a point in the text that can be made to draw a conclusion that is not there, but it surely does NOT work when a person reads a little before and a little after that selective quote. Just as the letters of Sheker are found at one end so is your method of conveying truth. But the letters of Emet span the entire alphabet, which teaches us to look at the entirety of it all and Not a sample.

            It is so evident that Isaiah is telling the people they will have relief from their sorrow; and the words of Tehillim 137 coincide, which is still recited. As in every other case Israel is vanquished from their enemies and thus the statement “this parable against the King of Babylon”. You see, Sheker leaves out the first part where Emet tells us the whole and from there do we have knowledge. Isn’t it odd that Your Ruach is unable to understand the “simple truth” of the “actual words” and seeks to distort and, in effect, deny comforting words to His people. The “ruach of Stephen rises” again.

        • Dina says:

          Lion, this is just nonsense. Deuteronomy 4 is not rendered moot because some people fell into the sin of idolatry. You refuse to confront the crystal clear teaching of Deuteronomy 4. Why the persistent refusal? Is it because you do not dare to, as you so often accuse of cowardice?

          Christians who honestly confront this chapter leave Christianity, as Concerned Reader can tell you.

          • Eliyah Lion says:

            Dina I have nothing against Deuteronomy 4 quite the contrary.
            But i fear that it is a testimony against your sect for it says:

            5 See, I have taught you decrees and laws as YHWH ELOHAI commanded me, so that you may follow them in the land you are entering to take possession of it. 6 Observe them carefully, for this will show your wisdom and understanding to the nations, who will hear about all these decrees and say, “Surely this great nation is a wise and understanding people.”

            When and where did that happen that nations praised Israel. O may be during Salomon time but we know how lust brought him to the worship of his wifes idols… It did not last.

            But which nation is obeying the Elohim where there is no:

            1)no homosexuality
            2)no abortion
            3)no murders
            4)no stealing
            5)respect and honor of fathers and mothers
            6)no idol worship
            7)no profanation of Shabat
            8)no bearer of false testimony
            9)worship of YHWH
            10) no adulteries

            and on…

            Just you about your sect who disobey the mitzvah of not being bearer of false testimony by daring to accuse Yahshuo HaMessiah of being a false prophet because He cared for the sick and the handicap for a so-called breaking of Shabat. We see the jealousy of inept leaders not being able to preach and heal and prophesy and teach and care like He did… Jealousy like the father of lie the satan jealous of our parents Adam and Hawah innocence…

            You can not hold Deuteronomy 4 and you misunderstand the prophets and you persecute the Just and you denigrate what is true and pure… O blind men who will deliver you of the condemnation being cast on your head. Now after wondering among the nations for more than 1900 years you still dare to persecute the little sheep of the Messiah depraving them of the mean to save them from the fire of condemnation… Your mitzvot are a parody of Justice and Mercy!

            Where is your TIKUN OLAM??

            For Jeremiah wrote:

            11
            The Lord has given full vent to his wrath;
            he has poured out his fierce anger.
            He kindled a fire in Zion
            that consumed her foundations.

            12
            The kings of the earth did not believe,
            nor did any of the peoples of the world,
            that enemies and foes could enter
            the gates of Jerusalem.

            13
            But it happened because of the sins of her prophets
            and the iniquities of her priests,
            who shed within her
            the blood of the righteous.

            And Malachi warning us:

            5 “See, I will send the prophet Elijah to you before that great and dreadful day of the Lord comes. 6 He will turn the hearts of the parents to their children, and the hearts of the children to their parents; or else I will come and strike the land with total destruction.”

          • Sharbano says:

            As Jim has pointed out your messiah WAS a false prophet and Furthermore this has Nothing to with “false testimony”. Apparently you lack Torah understanding in these matters.

            Elijah will draw people’s heart back to G-d before Judgment Day, to increase the number of people who will survive His judgment. We see evidence of this with the many Kiruv groups and organizations.

          • Dina says:

            What does that have to do with my contention that we were taught at Sinai Whom and how to worship? As usual you sidestep the issue by accusing us of something unrelated (and nonsensical, I might add). Confront Deuteronomy 4. If you really had no problem with it, you would be able to actually explain why in spite of its clear teaching that we are not to associate worship of God with any form whatsoever your worship of Jesus as God is justified. And you would be able to do that using clear backing from Scripture rather than appealing to your “ruah” and sneering at our “blindness.”

          • Dina says:

            “Now after wondering [sic] among the nations for more than 1900 years you still dare to persecute the LITTLE SHEEP of the Messiah” (my emphasis).

            Oh, you poor bitty little lambkin! Did I hurt your wee little feelings by disagreeing with you? You don’t like it when people don’t agree with you, you poor little thing?

            Ah, the saintly Christians were so much more loving and kind. We’re not forcing you into ghettos, expelling you from your cities/countries, massacring you for blood libels or other trumped-up charges, forcing you out of every profession, or forcing you to convert. No, by golly, we’re disagreeing with you! The worst of the worst!

            Oh, how sorry I am for you, you self-pitying wolf in sheep’s clothing.

      • David says:

        Hi Sharbano,

        They worshiped the gods of the Egyptians while in Egypt. They cast an image of what was obviously the Egyptian Apis bull god at Sinai. They still held to the gods that their ancestors worshiped in Egypt at the end of Joshua’s life, 40 years after entering the promised land.

        He, Joshua asked them to incline their hearts to the YHWH and “put away” the gods their ancestors worshiped beyond the river and in Egypt.

        They slipped back into paganism after Joshua during the period of judges and again during the period of kings which is why the kingdom was divided into the north and south and eventually why both were exiled.

        • Sharbano says:

          It’s possible that the Erev Rav had in mind the Egyptian god but the text doesn’t reflect the Israelites had this in mind. What was seen at Sinai is the Merkavah that Ezekiel saw and it was This that the calf was made from.

  5. Concerned Reader says:

    8 I speak with him face to face,
    Even plainly, and not in dark sayings;
    And he sees the form of YHWH

    See how it says NOT IN DARK SAYINGS in numbers 12:8 Eli Lion? We have a verse here that says Moses “sees the form of Hashem,” but then we are told explicitly by MOSES HIMSELF WHO SAW THIS in Deuteronomy 4 what we are to take away from the interaction with G-d.

    You heard the sound of words but saw no form; there was only a voice. 13 He declared to you his covenant, the Ten Commandments, which he commanded you to follow and then wrote them on two stone tablets. 1

    You saw no form of ANY KIND the day the Lord spoke to you at Horeb out of the fire. Therefore watch yourselves very carefully, 16 so that you do not become corrupt and make for yourselves an idol, an image of any shape, whether formed like a man or a woman, 17 or like any animal on earth or any bird that flies in the air, 18 or like any creature that moves along the ground or any fish in the waters below. 19 And when you look up to the sky and see the sun, the moon and the stars—all the heavenly array—do not be enticed into bowing down to them and worshiping things the Lord your God has apportioned to all the nations under heaven.

    Ezekiel too saw a “vision” of the throne with one seated upon it, but its clear that this is a prophetic vision, not a literal physical sight. See the point?

    • Eliyah Lion says:

      Con, Mosheh is a chosen and as a chosen YHWH reveals him a lot. To the people they receive what they need for their salvation. My points is that you guys want to limit the Revelation in order to control it and boxed it for you can not stand that humble persons can have a pure relation with Elohim and understand Elohim more than you so-called sages that like the satan know by intellect but do not Commune with their Heart-Soul-and Might…

      One advice repeat and repeat the schema Israel. Hopefully you will understand one day the power of the dabar elohim giving the seed of life to grow in your heart and soul the messiah in you to be a real witness of YHWH

  6. Concerned Reader says:

    Lion you keep saying that we who have responded want to box hashem’s revelation in, and even BRAZENLY assert that we want to control G-d, but it is you who is coming here and saying that we must embrace your view. Nobody has ordered that you embrace Judaism’s view.

    “you guys want to limit the Revelation in order to control it and boxed it for you can not stand that humble persons can have a pure relation with Elohim and understand Elohim more than you so-called sages that like the satan know by intellect but do not Commune with their Heart-Soul-and Might…”

    Again you accuse us of being like Satan when you have claimed that you come here to bring unity and peace.

    You have accused the people here of behaving like Demons more than once baselessly, because we “know by intellect” but not The heart. Is it not true though that scripture says the heart is deceptive above all things? We are merely holding primarily to a plain reading of the Hebrew Bible and you seem to have an issue with that.

    Why do you always resort to insults rather than answer? You believe that Jesus is a “person” of Elohim, one with a Holy Spirit who is under the headship of the father. The issue is, the Elohim, the sons of G-d as it were, are also not to be worshipped by Jews according to Deuteronomy 4:19.

    “And when you look up to the sky and see the sun, the moon and the stars—ALL THE HEAVENLY ARRAY—do not be enticed into bowing down to them and worshiping things the Lord your God has apportioned to all the nations under heaven.”

    All the heavenly array is literally translated as “hosts” or sevaot. 6635 [e] ṣə-ḇā צְבָ֣א [even] the host. A hypothetical son of G-d is still a servant of HASHEM, and in this verse, it says, “DO NOT WORSHIP THEM.”

    • Eliyah Lion says:

      “8 I speak with him face to face,
      Even plainly, and not in dark sayings;
      And he sees the form of YHWH
      Why then were you not afraid
      To speak against My servant Moses?” (Numbers 12:8)

      Con that contradicts your misunderstanding of Deuteronomy 4

      ”And he sees the form of YHWH”

      and also ”I speak with him face to face”

      Clearly your sect read only part of the Scriptures the one that suits their false conceptions and nourish their misunderstandings. For a sect understand always with a human mind what is supposed to be read and understood with the Ruah Holy the Ruah EMET (Spirit of Truth). No whole understanding and orthodox Faith without the Ruah holy.

      Orthodox Christianity being the true Religion having the Ruah Emet as our Mother, She nourishes us like the Messiah to grow us to the whole Truth. Only in Her we understand with beauty and peace, with meekness and courage the reality of the One True Faith.

      Bless is He who comes in the Name of YHWH!!

      • Sharbano says:

        I notice in this instance you don’t do the usual word for word translation from the Hebrew. Why is that. Obviously you:
        Clearly your sect read only part of the Scriptures the one that suits their false conceptions and nourish their misunderstandings.

        And, according to the text G-d must be a cloud. Surely your religion believes in a cloud, which dissipates with the fires of Torah.

        • Eliyah Lion says:

          Sharbano are you a convert or a real Yehudi?

          For it is not good to give our pearls to dogs!!

          Taking my lines of composition show how limited you are in your expression of reality. Plus your last line show obviously that you are disconnected from that reality.

          Be careful when you bash and denigrate Elohei Israel you might end as a footstool to his feet… Harsh reality for those who have lost Reality!!

          • Jim says:

            Lion,

            What makes you think a convert is not a real Jew?

            Jim

          • Sharbano says:

            Am I getting under your skin. This has been your response when shown how preposterous some of your principles are.

            Even if I WERE a convert, is this how your religion treats converts, calling them dogs. You sound no different than the followers of Islam. What happened to “we’re all created in His image”.

            In any event, you take This route after I mentioned word for word Hebrew translation. It is quite interesting this being your response to that.

          • Dina says:

            “For it is not good to give our pearls to dogs!!”

            It is disgusting–disgusting, I say!–to call Gentiles who are created in the image of God “dogs.” You are a racist, Lion!

          • Eliyah Lion says:

            Dina stop being the virgin offended here!! This terminology is employed by your own rabbis between them to qualify the pagans. You are being hypocrite here. Yahushuo also employed this terms in the Gospels proving that your so-called lie about the Gospel does not hold:

            One lie: you(your sect) cleverly and maliciously spread the rumor that the gospel are not from the Jewish Apostles but written by pagans or that the Gospel have been edited which if it were true would have pulled out all those controversial words (dogs, pigs) contrary to them.

            21 And having come out from there the one Yahushuo went back into the portions of Tyre and Sidon. 22 And behold a canaanite woman away from those regions there having come out screamed to him saying: “Be merciful on me, Lord, ben David: my daughter is cruelly demon-possessed.” 23 But he answered her not a word. Also having approached his disciples besought him saying: “Relieve her, because she screams after us.” 24 On top of this having been judged from away he answered: “I was not sent away except towards the sheep the completely lost away of the house of Israel.” 25 The moreover having returned back she bowed down to him saying: “Lord, come to my help.” 26 On top of this having been judged from away he answered: “It is not beautiful to seize the children’s bread and to fall to the little dogs.” 27 The moreover she answered: “Yes, Lord, also for the little dogs eat away from the crumbs those falling away from the table of their masters.” 28 At that time having been decided from away the one Yahushuo answered to her: “O woman, wonderful of you the persuasion! Let it be to you as you want.” And was healed her daughter away from that one moment. (Matthew, chap. 15)

            This a proof against your sect lie!!

          • Sharbano says:

            You keep using this term “your sect”. Well, my good man, since you didn’t have a Jewish education, or, learn in a Yeshiva you therefore have no idea what “sect” any of us are here. You only use that for derogatory purposes and once again showing your true colors. Furthermore, you constantly speak of Dabar Elokim, and Ruach and to top it all off that G-d, in our view, is a dictator, but your god is one of love. You certainly don’t practice what you preach.

            Now to the heart of the matter. It is My contention that I don’t believe the authors were Jews, James may be an exception, because their writing sounds more Gentile than Jewish. Considering the immorality of the time there were a great many who followed the teachings of the Jews, because of Their morality. Many of those weren’t actually converts and needless to say Brit Milah was a concern for them. They DID have the cursory education in Jewish matters, and THIS compared to the authors seem more plausible. Virtually all the writers of that text seem to only have that cursory knowledge. This is why my contention is that I doubt they were Jews. J’sus ALSO seems to fit that category. Now, there was man OF that time called Apollonius, who did have the following of many. His teachings were almost identical. It wouldn’t be out of the realm of possibilities that he was a pattern for the Gentile text. I find it interesting and a worthwhile theory.

            To the point of the dogs. No Jew in their right mind would speak such things. ANOTHER reason to doubt his authenticity of Jewish identity.

          • Dina says:

            Lion, I challenge you to find me one place in Tanach, our holy Scripture, where the gentiles are referred to as dogs.

            You know what, Lion? I have never called you a liar or a hypocrite, no matter how much I think you deserve it, but you have called me both. I am neither, of course, but in this case I am certainly not a hypocrite because I have never used derogatory terms to refer to Gentiles. You accuse me of doing that without any evidence. Some prophet you are.

          • Eliyah Lion says:

            Dina you challenged me about Tanakh and the use of dogs to refer to pagans. You should have asked your so-called rabbi who intervene only to bash Christians. If he was honest he would had confirmed what I said but being scared of what the goyim will perceived he remained silent… Hmm!

            Here are passages in Tanakh confirming:

            Psalm 22:16
            For dogs have surrounded Me; The congregation of the wicked has enclosed Me. They pierced My hands and My feet;

            Isaiah 56:10
            His watchmen are blind, They are all ignorant; They are all dumb dogs, They cannot bark; Sleeping, lying down, loving to slumber.

            Isaiah 56:11
            Yes, they are greedy dogs Which never have enough. And they are shepherds Who cannot understand; They all look to their own way, Every one for his own gain, From his own territory.

            Jeremiah 15:3
            “And I will appoint over them four forms of destruction,” says the Lord: “the sword to slay, the dogs to drag, the birds of the heavens and the beasts of the earth to devour and destroy.

            Matthew 7:6
            “Do not give what is holy to the dogs; nor cast your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn and tear you in pieces.

            Matthew 15:26
            But He answered and said, “It is not good to take the children’s bread and throw it to the little dogs.”

            Obviously Dina you did not knew. It is ok! But do not accused me falsely for I guarantee you that each insult you make is a sin to add to your account notwithstanding the fact that I am a brother Yehudi which make your sin more accountable for I do not seek my name but the glory of the NAME: YHWH ELOHIM

          • Dina says:

            Lion, since when is Matthew part of Tanach? Are you kidding?

            Let’s look at your citations:

            Psalms 22:16 refers to David’s enemies, not to Gentiles in general.

            Isaiah 56:10 and 56:11 refers to the leaders of the Jewish people, not to Gentiles.

            Jeremiah 15:3 is a reference to LITERAL DOGS, not people. The punishment will be that their corpses will be dragged away by dogs and devoured by birds.

            And like I said, Matthew is not part of Tanach.

            So, Lion, find me ONE REFERENCE in Tanach to Gentiles as dogs. Only your “New” Testament has such vitriolic language for Jew and Gentile alike. And please don’t be ridiculous.

          • Sharbano says:

            Just examine all the context of your quotes. Did J’sus make the remark in reference to some evid doer or someone attacking him, or confronting him in some nefarious way. Here are the salient passages

            Lord, Son of David, have mercy on me! My daughter is demon-possessed and suffering terribly. The woman came and knelt before him. Lord, help me!

            Now, does that above warrant the reaction of calling someone a dog. She is begging him and THAT was his reaction. What a pompous idiot he was. With David and the other quotes you gave it certainly wasn’t in response to someone begging. But, in typical fashion, you look for the same word and paste it, never realizing what the context is. THIS is the sum total of Xtianity.

        • Eliyah Lion says:

          Dina stop the madness! Are you serious!! Just psalm 22 is enough to counter your untrue statement. Let us look at this psalm which also is a reference to the Messiah being crucified. For if it were David since when he has been pierced:

          ”16 For dogs have surrounded Me;
          The congregation of the wicked has enclosed Me.
          They pierced My hands and My feet;
          17 I can count all My bones.
          They look and stare at Me.
          18 They divide My garments among them,
          And for My clothing they cast lots.” (NKJV)

          The start of the Psalm is an echoed of the Messiah cry to His Father EL-ELYON

          verse 1: ELI, ELI why have You forsaken Me?

          Compared to Matthew 27:

          45 Now from the sixth hour until the ninth hour there was darkness over all the land. 46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried out with a loud voice, saying, “Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani?” that is, “My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me?”

          47 Some of those who stood there, when they heard that, said, “This Man is calling for Elijah!” (NKJV)

          • Dina says:

            Lion, find me one place in Tanach where the goyim are called dogs. The Christian rendering of this passage as a prophecy of Jesus on the cross is a total and complete distraction. It has nothing to do with the topic.

            I asked you for references and you came up with the wrong ones, and you thought that Matthew was part of Tanach, and you call me mad? Ha!

          • Jim says:

            Lion,

            You are making a category error. Some gentiles are called dogs, not because they are gentiles, but because they are acting in a destructive manner. Even if all pagans are called dogs, which has not been established, that would not include all gentiles. Not all gentiles are pagans. (In the NT they are called “god fearers”.) Noah was not a pagan, for example. If gentiles are to be called dogs, then, it is not qua gentile but qua pagan.

            I do not know if all pagans are to be referred to as dogs, either. Your mistranslation of Psalm 22.16 notwithstanding, the “dogs” David writes about are clearly not the gentile population in general. They are his enemies. They are people who intend him harm, thus the comparison to dogs.

            Dina has pointed out that the other dogs to whom you refer are not gentiles. It would be good of you to admit your error. We all make them. Do not worry; we will not think less of you.

            Also, as a non-Jew, I would prefer not to be called a dog. It will not keep me up at night if you continue to do so, but I do find it rather uncivil. CR has not complained, but I do not think he deserves to be called a dog either. If you must dehumanize us, perhaps we could be bunnies.

            Jim

          • Dina says:

            Jim, David’s personal enemies and the ones who were most dangerous to him were people in his own family, household, and counsel. They were not even gentiles.

            The enemies that he vanquished on behalf of Israel do not fit the description in this Psalm. I could be wrong, but that is my understanding.

          • Dina says:

            Bunnies! Love it!

          • Sharbano says:

            I thought you said you could read Hebrew, even excoriating us for NOT knowing the language. There is No “They pierced My hands and My feet”. There is written this

            For dogs have surrounded me; a pack of evildoers has enclosed me, like [the prey of] a lion are my hands and feet.

            By making the point there of the word “pierced” we can conclude you are in fact Not a Hebrew speaker. In the past you have attacked the ones here who disagree by saying YOUR knowledge of Hebrew is greater.

            If this were truly about your messiah why didn’t Matthew include the entire passage.

            My G-d, my G-d, why have you forsaken me; why so far from saving me, from the word of my roar? O my G-d I call out by day, buy You answer not; and by night, but there is no respite for me.
            If one commits himself to Hashem, He will deliver him! He will rescue him, for He desires him!
            Be not aloof from me for distress is near, for there is none to help. Many bulls surround me, Bashan’s mighty ones encircle me. They open their mouths against me like a tearing, roaring lion.
            For dogs have surrounded me; a pack of evildoers has enclosed me, like [the prey of] a lion are my hands and my feet.
            But you Hashem, be not far, O my Strength, hasten to my assistance! Rescue my soul from the sword, my essence from the grip of the dog. Save me from the lion’s mouth as You have answered me from the horns of the reimim. I will proclaim Your name too my brethren, in the midst of the congregation I will praise You.

            This should be enough for now. As we can see this Psalm doesn’t reflect what is written about J’sus. In fact it looks like Matthew just picked out some verses and used them, to make it “sound” authentic. Instead, it calls into question the authenticity of the Xtian text. It is much much less reliable.

          • Jim says:

            Dina,

            Good point about Psalm 22 referring to David’s personal enemies and not gentiles. Thank you.

            Jim

          • LarryB says:

            E.L.
            To Christians psalms 22 is one of the most important messianic passages. The piercing of the hands and feet is mentioned but the reasoning for this is more of a leap of faith. They recognize what the Hebrew text says but to them and their e plantation is that it “hardly makes sense” they continue ” this passage finds its complete fulfillment in the nailing of Christ hands and feet to the cross” they have inserted a future event into the past the same way one might add a UFO into a photograph to prove they exist. We know what proverbs 30:6 says “add nothing to his words, lest he reprove you, and you be e posed as a deceiver”.

      • Concerned Reader says:

        Does or doesn’t Deuteronomy 4 plainly say for Israel not to worship the host of heaven lion? You accuse us falsely. Even if you could prove your views, the Dabar and ruach are part of Hashem’s host, and Deuteronomy 4 says for Israel not to worship the heavenly host.

        • Concerned Reader says:

          Lion, again, just because it says Moses saw the form has no bearing on whether Israel should serve the form. Make sense? G-d’s word and spirit manifested in both the burning bush, and the brass serpent, but you would never worship those manifestations alongside the father as persons.

        • Eliyah Lion says:

          Con you are a sensible man open minded.
          Your rejected the Christian faith because you were seduced by a propaganda based on the lies of false doctors and prophets. Who are those false doctors?

          1) They are from the seed of the serpent as predicted in Genesis 3, we crush their heads they impede our walk to salvation
          2) The sect of actual Judaism is not serving YHWH but Heylel. The proof of that is that they minimize the enemy of mankind and even praise him by saying he is a good angel. Other proof that they do not serve Elohei Abraham Isaac Yaakov is that do not invoke the Holy name in prayers for I assure you they are banned by divine decree to pronounce the name of YHWH
          3) They sow seed of doubts and deceptions, lies and hate about the glorious Christian Orthodox faith: the Holy fathers saw their wickedness and condemned them virulently. Elohim willing they were subdued because of their wickedness, now for a time with their father the satan they are on a mission to snatch the salvation to those who believed in the Savior and Redeemer of Mankind Yahushuo Ha Messiah.
          4) They spread the lies about the authenticity of Christian scriptures based on their misconceptions of their own Scriptures which they interpret with carnal minds
          5) They insinuate that Christianity comes from other pagan religion when we know that the pagan inspired by demons tried to copy or singe the true Religion to be born for they knew before the creation of the earth what was the plan of Elohai to which Heylel and 1/3 of the angelic host rebelled not being in accord with the Order of YHWH
          6) They insinuate that Yahushuo is a false prophet based on the view that He did not fulfilled the Promise for which He came into this earth when we Know that the Manifestation of the Resurrected happens to many disciples at the time of Yahshuo and through time when He reveals himself to the myriad of saints that traverse our space and time.
          7)They are now seeking their false messiah who will come in his name to which they will bow showing how hypocritical they were in condemning the True Messiah who came in the Name of YHWH

          I could continue but here to those that tells you that faith is not important but signs are more, I will say look at our father Abraham how he walked in faith in the Elohim even when he was asked to sacrifice is only son showing that even if Abraham came from a pagan background the Elohim tested him in his faith. No signs and wonder but the obedience of a humble man walking with the one true Elohim

          Mosheh codified laws and customs, morals and codes to build a nation distinct from the pagan peoples surrounding them. They were rebels and carnal minds with heart of stones but YHWH wanted them to believe in Him but kept asking for signs after signs conducted by their own passions instead of the faith that is required when you fear YHWH for fear of YHWH is the beginning of wisdom

          Open your hearts to truth and reject lies and deceptions of Babylon. Work for Elohei Israel instead of the bondage of Misrayim. Do not deny the Messiah like Yehudah Iscarioth who like most of the Yehudah tribe wanted a military warrior like Mohammed to conquer by arms instead by Love and Truth the hearts and minds of many. For to Abraham it was promised descendants like the sand of the earth… In whom is this accomplished??

          Bless is he who come in the Name of YHWH!!

          • Dina says:

            Ah, spoken like a true Jew hater! Feeling the Christian love pouring out of Lion, my brothers and sisters?

            Nearly 2000 years of suffering and death for my people in the name of Christian “love.”

          • Eliyahu You claim that the fathers (of the church) foresaw the doubts that the evil Jews will sow in the hearts of those who would follow the “glorious faith” – so what did they do? you day that they condemned these evil Jews “virulently” – How ridiculous. If they wanted to convince doubters and strengthen their faith they would explain the truth more clearly – if they need to resort to virulent condemnation that should tell you that they are not working for the God of truth.

          • Eliyah Lion says:

            Yisroel they protected their flock against ravenous wolves wanting to kill their sheep with the false doctrine of false doctors and not be accused by Elohim to be mercenaries instead of good shepherd. For when the wolves is in the flock, we cry to all the household to defend the weak and the simple sheep. We take our baton of faith and we strike with the fire of our mouth to stunt the enemy and identify him. Know your enemy if you want to vanquish them…

            For we know the path to salvation and true glory which the satan wants us to loose for he is a thief and a liar from the beginning. You failed your mission you have abandoned the faith of Abraham now you have become servants of delusions and false purity of doctrine that we call pharisaic doctrine. For true Orthodoxy is the path to truth and life in faith in the Love of the Almighty YHWH for his children like Abraham who walk humbly in faith with the Elohim…

            When my children are brainwashed by your so-called knowledge they do not see the insidious lies and doubts that you spreading in their minds. Yourselves are used like pawn of Heylel having himself deluded you since your rejection of the Messiah Promised.

            Now the holy fathers of the Church surely succeed to defend the flock in their time for Orthodoxy reigns even after many persecution by Catholics, Communism, Turks, Muslims… You see Christianity from an American view with pseudo-christians the Protestants who are a parody of the true Church.

            The Russian and all the Orthodox Churches including the Coptic and the Maronites all withstood to many persecutions and had more killed than you can ever imagine. Those are the sons of Israel the Great Assembly to reign with the Messiah in the age to come… Their blood is crying out to YHWH to avenge them…

            Now it is time to reunite Ephraim with Yehudah for the protection of holy Land Israel, for the enemies of us wants us dead. The warning of Malachi is not to be taken lightly if you really love your brothers Yehudim unless you are a false Yehudi a wolf in disguise working against our People!!

          • Eliyahu How odd. When the children of my community are being influenced by the masters of persuasion then the adults in my community clarify the truth to the best of their abilities. We don’t need to resort to virulent condemnations because we have the truth. Your community – has nothing to use but virulent condemnations. And Sir Eliyahu – your flock was NOT protected. It was your flock that persecuted God’s firstborn son for 2000 years. I guess that your leaders were more interested in protecting the “glorious” faith than they were in making sure that their flock doesn’t turn into a pack of wolves.

          • Dina says:

            Wow, that is so…convincing. Note the use of reason, backed by clear and unequivocal Scriptural citations, to present arguments that must surely sweep you off your feet.

          • Dina says:

            My comment that begins with “Wow, that is so…convincing” is directed at Eliyah Lion’s post about the scary Jewish wolves persecuting innocent Christians.

          • Jim says:

            Lion,

            As a matter of curiosity, do you really believe that brow-beating is more effective than reason?

          • Sharbano says:

            I can’t say about Con in particular but many a former Xtian came to the realization that Xtianity just doesn’t measure up. They start asking questions and find it is based upon lies. As it says in Jeremiah,
            Hashem, my Strength, my Stronghold and my Refuge on the day of distress! To you nations will come from the ends of the earth and say, “It was all falsehood that our ancestors inherited, futility that has no purpose. Can a man make gods for himself – they are not gods.

            I wonder, do you even know what Heylel even means. What we Can say is that which came from Babylon has continued to Xtianity, It is part of the same root. This is shown in the vision that Daniel interpreted.

            Just because you desire to use His Name doesn’t equate with being doing His Will. Far from it. It is not some man who is savior and redeemer but G-d Himself. In that your are setting G-d aside and elevating man to the stature of a god. THIS is why numerous Xtians have forsaken this false religion. And then make the claim that pagan religions copied the true religion ahead of time is truly laughable. This is an act of PURE desperation. You say “we know”. Well just HOW do you KNOW this. In making such an absurd statement you are saying these inspired demons had more foreknowledge than G-d. No, what we DO KNOW is that Xtianity and its followers were in the midst of pagan religions and they absorbed some of that paganism they were familiar with. Rome was well known for this. They assimilated the Greek gods and whatever gods were around. They had no prejudice in allowing More gods. This, my good man, is the foundation of your religion. It became Roman. You have admitted it came from the Greek Logos. All you did was give it a Jewish name. Xtians want to refer to what Gamliel said and say, see, we’re still here. Well Xtianity didn’t remain as Gamliel saw it. Instead it converted to Roman, just as Saul changed his name to Paul.

            The resurrection didn’t happen to many. Xtianity records the very few who supposedly saw it and furthermore, the accounting of the event could not even get the stories straight. The claim that your J’sus appears to many over time is nothing new. Many have claimed the same of their gods. You can disparage those who asked in testing J’sus but THIS is the requirement of Torah when it comes to prophets. Since J’sus said and didn’t do he is a liar and as a result, the father of lies.

  7. Eliyah Lion says:

    Sharbano you are mixing true forms of Christianity and the rest. Only Orthodoxy which is the True Church and Congregation. All the others are simulacrum of Christianity. The protestants and all their sects, the Roman catholics you are right are not the true Knesse (Church).

    Now concerning Gamaliel for you knowledge he did recognize Yahushuo as the Messiah of Israel like many Orthodox Jews now are doing but in secret. They do not manifest it because as Yisroel does know those of his sect can be quite virulent when they dare to recognize Yahushuo as the Messiah the Son of ELOHAI

    Now to go back to psalm 22 I took the NKJV translation I do not have the time to translate all the Tanakh but you can verify that their translation is backed by many scholars which should make you less certain of your own manipulated translation. For if it is the right translation that would certainly grumbled your false sect of Judaism…

    ”16 For dogs have surrounded Me;
    The congregation of the wicked has enclosed Me.
    They pierced My hands and My feet;
    17 I can count all My bones.
    They look and stare at Me.
    18 They divide My garments among them,
    And for My clothing they cast lots.” (NKJV)

    P.S.: I have just checked the Hebrew. The translation of the New King James Version renders excellently the meaning of the Hebrew. You are a real deceiver Sharbano and Yisroel you should be ashamed of your continuous tactics to divert other sincere seekers from the truth of Scriptures. Soon I will say: Shame on you that will be not a good thing for you.

    • LarryB says:

      E.l.
      Open dialogue, now there’s a deceitful tactic to divert sincere seekers if the truth.

    • Sharbano says:

      It’s rather ironic that you consider yourself part of the “Only True Church”. This is what they ALL say about themselves. All the sects gained their creed from the Council of Nicea and merely modified some parts from there.

      Where do you find that Gamliel “did” recognize your J’sus as messiah. He said no such thing. What he did say, in essence, was that it would not last, and it didn’t. Xtianity became NOT what he encountered but a religion completely apart from Judaism. And thus, it is against Torah and against Hashem.

      Which scholars are you referring to. There are NO scholars, at least those who know Hebrew that would translate that as “they pierced my hands and my feet”. What does “Ari” mean in Hebrew, PIERCED???? Really now. It is you who are deceiving claiming that Gentile version equates to the Hebrew.

      Soon? soon shame on us? Well let me say this. Do Not hesitate. Don’t wait until soon. You have no power over us. You should refrain from manifesting your delusions and making a fool of yourself.

      • Eliyah Lion says:

        Sharbano again I must counter your lies and deformation of the truth. The Hebrew text says:

        כִּי סְבָבוּנִי כְּלָבִים עֲדַת מְרֵעִים הִקִּיפוּנִי כָּאֲרִי יָדַי וְרַגְלָי׃ יח אֲסַפֵּר כָּל־עַצְמוֹתָי הֵמָּה יַבִּיטוּ יִרְאוּ־בִי׃

        The word ari is not in the Text but כָּאֲרִי which in ancient Hebrew means dig not lion. Ari without the letter K(kaf) does not mean lion and even the context warrants not the word lion in the text that is pure non-sense. You took you truncated translation which they translate to make you not see the truth. WOW!

        We have a proof that your own sect has mistranslated in other to divert people from the clear prophecy of Psalm 22. Or it could only be that being Ashkenazi and immersed in Yiddish which was an invented language mixing many languages, you forgot the real Hebrew of our forefathers.

        Actually an Israeli friend told me once that the rabbis not knowing Hebrew went to the Chaldean Christians who knew Aramaic and Hebrew asking for the meaning of many words… Surely they forgot what Kari from Karah means… He he you are really laughable Sharbano and now I see that you do not know any true Hebrew…

        • Dina says:

          “Or it could only be that being Ashkenazi and immersed in Yiddish which was an invented language mixing many languages.”

          Hmm, this is vaguely reminiscent of Nazi propaganda, the hatred of Yiddish because it was a bastardization of German.

          “Actually an Israeli friend told me once that the rabbis not knowing Hebrew went to the Chaldean Christians who knew Aramaic and Hebrew asking for the meaning of many words.”

          And what is his evidence for this ridiculous and outlandish statement? Do you believe everything you hear without investigating its truth if it fits neatly and conveniently into your preconceived notions?

          A lesson on Hebrew grammar for our prophet who doesn’t speak Hebrew:

          Ari means lion.
          Ka is a suffix that means like.
          Ka’ari means like a lion.

          Lachpor means to dig.

          To dig does not mean to pierce (a lesson in English).

        • Sharbano says:

          Where did you learn your “ancient Hebrew” from. There are Xtians who “make the claim” about using ancient Hebrew and that is all it is, a claim.

          That accusation that the Rabbis changed the text is an old canard. I showed the other verses in that Psalm that Prove without a doubt it cannot be about your J’sus.

          Forgot????? the Hebrew. Why use the typical Xtian comeback and must make up things. You have to resort to outright fabrications? Your desperation is getting worse by the day.
          And ANOTHER made up story. The rabbis had to go to the Xtians??? Oh REALLY. You really are pontificating here with such nonsense. Why don’t you own up to it NOW, your Hebrew is coming from Strong’s Hebrew Lexicon.

    • Dina says:

      Lion, a three-year-old Hebrew speaker knows that “ka’ari” means “like a lion” and not “they pierced.” You are not a Hebrew speaker. You have revealed yourself to be ignorant of the language many times over, but this is the final straw. You cannot expect to be taken seriously after this.

      It should concern you greatly that the KJV mistranslated this word so egregiously. I would not be so naive as to assume that it was an error of translation. I believe it was deliberate so as to make this passage appear more Christological.

      By the way, conspiracies are awfully convenient because there is no proof. You can’t prove that Jews secretly accept Jesus but keep it to themselves out of fear, and I can’t prove that this is not so. Therefore, such a claim is simply not credible and is in fact super silly.

      Gamaliel never acknowledged Jesus as the Messiah. You have made an unsubstantiated claim. (If I made a similar claim you would call me a liar.)

      According to your scripture, which I have no reason to believe, Gamaliel said to give the Jesus movement the test of time. If it was from God, it would last. Even according to your scripture then, the Jesus movement is not from God because it did not survive as a Jewish movement. Within a few centuries, it had become totally divorced from Judaism and had turned into a thoroughly Gentile religion.

      If the test of time proves a religion, then you have a problem. Judaism, Christianity, Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism have all stood the test of time. (In fact, of these five, Hinduism is the oldest.) So obviously, the length of time a religion lasts is not a testament to its truth.

      • Eliyah Lion says:

        Dina you are a liar. And you are continuing in your lie. Then translate and see the use of KARI in other passages of Holy Scriptures and see who is right here o false prophetess…

        Genesis 26:25
        HEB: שָׁ֖ם אָהֳל֑וֹ וַיִּכְרוּ־ שָׁ֥ם עַבְדֵי־
        NAS: Isaac’s servants dug a well.
        KJV: servants digged a well.
        INT: there his tent dug and there servants

        Genesis 50:5
        HEB: בְּקִבְרִ֗י אֲשֶׁ֨ר כָּרִ֤יתִי לִי֙ בְּאֶ֣רֶץ
        NAS: which I dug for myself in the land
        KJV: in my grave which I have digged for me in the land
        INT: my grave which dug the land of Canaan

        Exodus 21:33
        HEB: א֠וֹ כִּֽי־ יִכְרֶ֥ה אִ֛ישׁ בֹּ֖ר
        NAS: or digs a pit
        KJV: or if a man shall dig a pit,
        INT: or If digs A man A pit

        Numbers 21:18
        HEB: חֲפָר֣וּהָ שָׂרִ֗ים כָּר֙וּהָ֙ נְדִיבֵ֣י הָעָ֔ם
        NAS: of the people dug, With the scepter
        KJV: of the people digged it, by [the direction of] the lawgiver,
        INT: sank the leaders dug the nobles of the people

        2 Chronicles 16:14
        HEB: בְקִבְרֹתָ֗יו אֲשֶׁ֣ר כָּֽרָה־ לוֹ֮ בְּעִ֣יר
        NAS: which he had cut out for himself in the city
        KJV: him in his own sepulchres, which he had made for himself in the city
        INT: tomb which had cut the city of David

        Job 6:27
        HEB: יָת֥וֹם תַּפִּ֑ילוּ וְ֝תִכְר֗וּ עַל־ רֵֽיעֲכֶֽם׃
        KJV: the fatherless, and ye dig [a pit] for your friend.
        INT: the orphans cast dig over your friend

        Job 41:6
        HEB: יִכְר֣וּ עָ֭לָיו חַבָּרִ֑ים
        INT: dig over will the traders

        Psalm 7:15
        HEB: בּ֣וֹר כָּ֭רָֽה וַֽיַּחְפְּרֵ֑הוּ וַ֝יִּפֹּ֗ל
        NAS: He has dug a pit and hollowed
        KJV: He made a pit, and digged
        INT: A pit has dug and hollowed fallen

        Psalm 22:16
        HEB: מְ֭רֵעִים הִקִּיפ֑וּנִי כָּ֝אֲרִ֗י יָדַ֥י וְרַגְלָֽי׃
        KJV: have inclosed me: they pierced my hands
        INT: of evildoers has encompassed dig my hands and my feet

        Psalm 40:6
        HEB: חָפַ֗צְתָּ אָ֭זְנַיִם כָּרִ֣יתָ לִּ֑י עוֹלָ֥ה
        NAS: My ears You have opened; Burnt offering
        KJV: mine ears hast thou opened: burnt offering
        INT: desired my ears have opened Burnt and sin

        Psalm 57:6
        HEB: כָּפַ֪ף נַ֫פְשִׁ֥י כָּר֣וּ לְפָנַ֣י שִׁיחָ֑ה
        NAS: is bowed down; They dug a pit
        KJV: is bowed down: they have digged a pit
        INT: is bowed my soul dug before A pit

        Psalm 94:13
        HEB: רָ֑ע עַ֤ד יִכָּרֶ֖ה לָרָשָׁ֣ע שָֽׁחַת׃
        NAS: Until a pit is dug for the wicked.
        KJV: until the pit be digged for the wicked.
        INT: of adversity Until is dug the wicked A pit

        Psalm 119:85
        HEB: כָּֽרוּ־ לִ֣י זֵדִ֣ים
        NAS: The arrogant have dug pits
        KJV: The proud have digged pits
        INT: have dug the arrogant pits

        Proverbs 16:27
        HEB: אִ֣ישׁ בְּ֭לִיַּעַל כֹּרֶ֣ה רָעָ֑ה וְעַל־
        NAS: A worthless man digs up evil, While
        KJV: man diggeth up evil:
        INT: man A worthless digs evil While

        Proverbs 26:27
        HEB: כֹּֽרֶה־ שַּׁ֭חַת בָּ֣הּ
        NAS: He who digs a pit will fall
        KJV: Whoso diggeth a pit shall fall
        INT: digs A pit will fall

        Jeremiah 18:20
        HEB: רָעָ֔ה כִּֽי־ כָר֥וּ שׁוּחָ֖ה לְנַפְשִׁ֑י
        NAS: with evil? For they have dug a pit
        KJV: for good? for they have digged a pit
        INT: shall evil for dig A pit my soul

        Jeremiah 18:22
        HEB: פִּתְאֹ֑ם כִּֽי־ כָר֤וּ [שִׁיחָה כ]
        NAS: raiders upon them; For they have dug a pit
        KJV: suddenly upon them: for they have digged a pit
        INT: suddenly When have dug pit to capture

        See now how deluded and how brainwashed you are for having followed blind men seeking the name of rabbi when they know babbles of babies… Pathetic!!

        • Eliyahu
          What do you make of Isaiah 38:13?

          • Eliyah Lion says:

            Yisroel there is your confusion you took ”like the lion” to replace the verb ”Karah” which means dig… But if you knew Hebrew you would have see the context warranted a verb not a noun.

            You will argue against multitude of scholars (I might have agree with you only if the meaning of the verse would have been enhanced in a deeper meaning but that is not the case) versus your sect who did not knew Hebrew changing the commonly understood to your non-sense translation which tentatively deny the reality of psalm 22 : a real prophetic picture of the Crucified Messiah. Deny deny but the truth will always prevail

            Now I will do my translation purely literal to show here that the scholars translated well the passage of Psalm 22

            Here is the Hebrew:

            כִּי סְבָבוּנִי כְּלָבִים עֲדַת מְרֵעִים הִקִּיפוּנִי כָּאֲרִי יָדַי וְרַגְלָי׃ יח אֲסַפֵּר כָּל־עַצְמוֹתָי הֵמָּה יַבִּיטוּ יִרְאוּ־בִי׃

            “When surrounding-me dogs a congregation of many-evildoers compassing-me ‘they-dig’ my-two-hands and my-two-feet : I may relate all-my-dual-substances them they look they see-in…”

            Now Yisroel with the literal translation try putting “Ka-ari as the lion” in place of ‘they-dig’ you will see the non-sense of your position…

          • Eliyahu I challenge you to show one place in Tanach where the word “kara – to dig” has an aleph in it. By the way – to accuse Jews of not knowing Hebrew it is almost like accusing the authors of the Christian Scriptures of not knowing how to misquote Tanach. Do you really believe that Maimonides did not know Hebrew?

        • Jim says:

          Lion,

          One of Dina’s statements was that the word you are taking to mean “pierced” would have been “dug,” not “pierced. As you shrilly call her a liar, I note that your proofs that ka’ari, they are all translated as a form of “dig”. She does not seem to be so much the liar, after all. I note also that the only one that contains an aleph is the the Psalm 22.16. None of the others have the aleph. I note also that ka’ari appears in Numbers 23.24, meaning “like a lion”. Dina does not appear to be a liar. You certainly appear to be in error, however.

          Jim

          • Dina says:

            Thanks for saving me the time, Jim. Even if it meant dig (which it does not, of course, as any Hebrew speaker can tell you), how does it make sense to say “they dug my hands and feet”?

            Lion’s Hebrew is so poor that he can’t tell the difference between words that have some letters in common. It would be like saying “show” and “snow” are the same word. Look how many letters are the same! There is only one letter that is different. Surely they mean the same thing!

            Lion doesn’t know Hebrew at all. To make such a mistake, you can’t know Hebrew.

        • Sharbano says:

          Well, well, well Mr Lion, you have been found out. Here is the link where you COPIED from the Strong’s

          http://biblehub.com/hebrew/3738.htm

          We see on the right hand side of the page the EXACT WORD FOR WORD as you copied it
          Genesis 26:25
          HEB: שָׁ֖ם אָהֳל֑וֹ וַיִּכְרוּ־ שָׁ֥ם עַבְדֵי־
          NAS: Isaac’s servants dug a well.
          KJV: servants digged a well.
          INT: there his tent dug and there servants

          Admit it NOW, you are only using Strong’s to make people “believe” you know Hebrew. That is why you HAVE TO translate it word for word since you can’t put the grammar into the sentence.
          I only searched for the first entry you listed. I bet if I search your other Hebrew translations we would find it there. How can you be SO Dishonest.

          • Eliyah Lion says:

            Now to prove my claim by scholarly works is to be dishonest. Stick to the subject discussed for I know that you do not speak Hebrew. I have family in Israel and my Hebrew is more profound than your babbles.

            Plus if you think that modern Hebrew is equal to ancient Hebrew that would explain why you are mixing a lot of words and proper understanding of the sacred Hebrew. For no man can properly comprehend sacred Hebrew without the holy science from the Ruah Emet.

            You small pathetic tactics do not work with me Sharbano, a lot of challenge to your so-called rabbi have not been met by him. Just the psalm 22 show how you are immersed in bad faith…

            The fact that you are attacking me all as one is a proof that what I am saying is deranging you… I will not close my mouth till the time has come!!

          • Sharbano says:

            So, you’re not basing your “knowledge” of Hebrew on anything Other than your Ruach. I see you did not deny using Strong’s. If your Hebrew is so good WHY do you rely on pulling citation from the Strong’s. You SHOULD be able to easily put it in another language, e.g., English. Instead you resort to words as this : “You small pathetic tactics do not work with me”. A response such as this highlight you are deceiving the people here. Since you have traveled so far down the road you cannot admit the falsehood. And so you have to “blame” the Ruach. As has been said before, we know the veracity of your Ruach by the testimony of Stephen. I understand the dilemma. If you were exposed then literally everything falls apart and nothing you have written is valid. It is all Sheker then.

          • Sharbano says:

            Is this where your Ruach of ancient Hebrew resides.

            http://www.ancient-hebrew.org/

          • Dina says:

            “The fact that you are attacking me all as one is a proof that what I am saying is deranging you.”

            No one is attacking you, Lion. We are simply disagreeing with you. If you see disagreement as attack, then that is your problem. In fact, you are the one doing the attacking, calling us liars, hypocrites, and demons and condemning us all to hell.

  8. Concerned Reader says:

    Lion, you have continually accused everyone here of siding with Demons, of forcing their interpretation on the Bible. But, if we look closely, their interpretation fits with a plain meaning of scripture. You say, that no doubt, outside the Orthodox Church there is no salvation, but the Tanakh says “do not oppress the stranger, for you we’re strangers in the land of Egypt.” It also shows there are many righteous people who are not members of the covenant.

    You believe that Satan has the power to deceive, to war against G-d with 1/3 of the Angels, to lead the righteous astray to death and destruction. There is only one angel in Judaism associated with death and destruction, and that is Malach ha mavet. The angel of death, and he, as we see clearly in the Exodus is a servant of G-d, not his rival or competition.

    Consider carefully, oh lion, that if you believe that Catholics and all Protestants are wrong about Jesus, you have created a religion of one. I don’t know what Church Orthodoxy you were exposed to, but it’s nothing like the orthodox I know. You have so much anger towards those of a different opinion. They have offered answers to you for every question, and that, without directly insulting you. You can’t expect roses from anyone when you attack them personally.

    The Hebrew Bible plainly says for Jews not to worship the host of heaven/heavenly array in Deuteronomy 4. The text here basically says, do not worship G-d’s entourage. That would include any word and spirit of G-d, any manifestation. In orthodoxy the word and spirit are like G-d’s hands/instruments, they are servants of the fathers will, so they would count in the prohibition of Deuteronomy 4.

    There is nothing demonic about that, it’s in the plain meaning. We know for example, that the brass serpent was good, that G-d’s spirit rested on it, as a miracle, but even that became an idol and had to be destroyed, because people worshipped it alongside G-d.

  9. Concerned Reader says:

    Lion, the issue is really one of claims. The Christian religion is nothing more and nothing less than people making a claim about the fulfillment of the Jewish Bible, and about the promised role of the Jewish messiah. We all know that the Jewish bible stands or falls on the commandments of G-d. Christianity believes that one Jesus of Nazareth fulfills the Tanakh’s picture of the Messiah, Judaism respectfully disagrees.

    Consider the following points very carefully

    1. The Hebrew Bible is a book primarily composed of the commandments of G-d which he told Israel to follow in all their generations. It clearly and unambiguously teaches Jews the worship of G-d alone so they can be separated from polytheism. The tanakh says mankind can master their evil inclination and that G-d forgives the repentant. The fathers are not punished for the sins of sons, nor the reverse, but the one who sins is punished.

    2. The New Testament says that the word of the father became flesh (fully G-d & Fully man Neither confusing the natures nor dividing the person,) and that in this one Jesus alone, mankind can find forgiveness from sin thereby being filled with the spirit of G-d and able to walk in the commands of G-d.

    3. This same New Testament claims that someone else who is lawless (sinful or anti law because sin is the transgression of the law.) will come in the future who also claims to be G-d, but who does deceitful miracles, and who also suffers a “deadly wound.” (revelation 13.) This anti Christ figure as it were copies Jesus’ own alleged miracles exactly, and offers his exact proofs for legitimacy, thereby tricking everyone.

    The New Testament in this 13th chapter of Revelation is indirectly telling you and other Christians why Jews can never accept your faith. Doctrines like the trinity, the atoning death of Jesus, and the miracles of Jesus, are not a solid ground indicator of the truth, only faithfulness to the commandments are. In other words, just because someone does miracles, claims he is G-d, and is healed from a deadly wound, doesn’t mean he is really G-d, or that you should worship him.

    These 3 things being firmly established in the text, why are you so upset that Jews don’t share in the fundamental theology of your faith? Your own book, and you yourself say that groups who claim to be Christians can be deceived, and may not actually be true followers. In that case, Judaism will stick with what EVERYONE AGREES is central to scripture, namely, to a walk with G-d, in the commandments.

    Judaism is not about G-d’s nature and what it may or may not be. It is not centered around the messiah and who he may or may not be. It is centered around Israel obeying the plain sense of G-D’s commandments. In that sense Jews are commanded to listen first to the Jewish Bible.

    • Eliyah Lion says:

      Con you have been brainwashed by the sect of the pharisees. Their poison is in your mind. Repent for all the denier of the Messiah will be rejected and you will be the footstool of his feet. (Psalm 110)

      “Sit at my right hand
      until I make your enemies
      a footstool for your feet.”

      All that you write concerning the Apocalypse is to warn us about the false messiah coming in Israel not about the true Messiah who already came and is coming in his Holy Orthodox Church.

      Also real Judaism is about Faith in YHWH look and see our beloved Abraham our father in the Faith. He walked with the Elohim within the Faith always having confidence in his Name and obeying what he was told.

      Mosheh the humble one was a great legislator builder of a great nation the nation who obeys in the Commandments of YHWH ADONAI and spoke face to face with the Elohim seeing the form of YHWH:

      “I speak with him face to face,
      Even plainly, and not in dark sayings;
      And he sees the form of YHWH ”

      Now Yahushuo the King Messiah the Dabar Elohim in the Flesh came to recruit all his elect to reign with him. True Christianity is the school of the Saints to make princes of the world to come for it is written:

      “Instead of Your fathers shall be Your sons,
      Whom You shall make princes in all the earth…” (Psalm 45)

      Now Con judge clearly: search the concept of Tikun Olam… Does the pharisees do Tikun Olam? Who cares for the sick and handicap who founded multiple orders to alleviate the suffering of the people? For true Religion is:

      The Son of Man Will Judge the Nations

      31 “When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy[c] angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. 32 All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. 33 And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left. 34 Then the King will say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: 35 for I was hungry and you gave Me food; I was thirsty and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in; 36 I was naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you visited Me; I was in prison and you came to Me.’

      37 “Then the righteous will answer Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry and feed You, or thirsty and give You drink? 38 When did we see You a stranger and take You in, or naked and clothe You? 39 Or when did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?’ 40 And the King will answer and say to them, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brethren, you did it to Me.’

      41 “Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: 42 for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink; 43 I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.’

      44 “Then they also will answer Him,[d] saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to You?’ 45 Then He will answer them, saying, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’ 46 And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

      • Sharbano says:

        Apparently your Strong’s failed you again here.

        I’m sure Xtianity has done some Fine Tikun Olam, you know, like Murdering millions in your Dabar’s name.

        You do realize you quote all this Xtian text speaking of good but what is it that YOU truly desire. The unbridled power over your fellow man. How many references has it been that you flaunt what your status will be in those times. This isn’t the first time I’ve heard this from Xtians. They boast how they will rule over others. Well, none of us here want such a religion that is bent on power and control over others. With your attitude you would be the Stalin of the messianic age.

  10. Concerned Reader says:

    Lion, since when is “dig” the same as Pierce”? A dig could be a bite, a scratch, or any number of injuries. You also mentioned that you are being hyper literal. When do you know when scripture is meant to be taken hyper literally, vs not hyper literally?

    • Eliyah Lion says:

      Yisroel you did not respond to my post the last paragraph where I said:

      “Now Yisroel with the literal translation try putting “Ka-ari as the lion” in place of ‘they-dig’ you will see the non-sense of your position…”

      You are also accusing scholars around the world because the word does not suit your lies and false doctrine. Psalm 22 is clear about the Messiah Crucified only a bad faith denier could dare to change a word in a context with another word which does not even make sense showing how ridiculous you are in trying to covert all the prophecies concerning the Messiah of Israel!! How desperate you are??

      Eliyah Lion says:
      June 23, 2015 at 1:08 pm

      Yisroel there is your confusion you took ”like the lion” to replace the verb ”Karah” which means dig… But if you knew Hebrew you would have see the context warranted a verb not a noun.

      You will argue against multitude of scholars (I might have agree with you only if the meaning of the verse would have been enhanced in a deeper meaning but that is not the case) versus your sect who did not knew Hebrew changing the commonly understood to your non-sense translation which tentatively deny the reality of psalm 22 : a real prophetic picture of the Crucified Messiah. Deny deny but the truth will always prevail

      Now I will do my translation purely literal to show here that the scholars translated well the passage of Psalm 22

      Here is the Hebrew:

      כִּי סְבָבוּנִי כְּלָבִים עֲדַת מְרֵעִים הִקִּיפוּנִי כָּאֲרִי יָדַי וְרַגְלָי׃ יח אֲסַפֵּר כָּל־עַצְמוֹתָי הֵמָּה יַבִּיטוּ יִרְאוּ־בִי׃

      “When surrounding-me dogs a congregation of many-evildoers compassing-me ‘they-dig’ my-two-hands and my-two-feet : I may relate all-my-dual-substances them they look they see-in…”

      Now Yisroel with the literal translation try putting “Ka-ari as the lion” in place of ‘they-dig’ you will see the non-sense of your position…

      • Eliyahu I didn’t bother to answer your last paragraph because it is not a question – it is just a statement of your opinion – I trust in the good sense of the readers to see if your opinion holds water or not. By the way – since when does Christianity go by the opinion of scholars? If they would their belief system would not get off the ground.

        • Eliyah Lion says:

          Yisroel you are of bad faith and you do not impress me with your twisted tongue. Serpent as you are you try to put your poison in the minds of ignorant people believing your lies and deceits.

          In front of the Tribunal of YHWH my Beloved we will see who will be damned and cast out. But I will not close my mouth, I will proclaim the truth and warn the people about your Babylonian sect. If you want to stop me you will have to crucify me like my beloved Yahushuo the Messiah of Israel … That day will come!!

          • Sharbano says:

            Mr. Ancient Hebrew speaker how do you translate these
            Numbers 24:9
            כָּרַע שָׁכַב כַּאֲרִי וּכְלָבִיא מִי יְקִימֶנּוּ מְבָרֲכֶיךָ בָרוּךְ וְאֹרֲרֶיךָ אָרוּר:
            Isaiah 38:13
            שִׁוִּיתִי עַד בֹּקֶר כָּאֲרִי כֵּן יְשַׁבֵּר כָּל עַצְמוֹתָי מִיּוֹם עַד לַיְלָה תַּשְׁלִימֵנִי:
            Ezekiel 22:25
            קֶשֶׁר נְבִיאֶיהָ בְּתוֹכָהּ כַּאֲרִי שׁוֹאֵג טֹרֵף טָרֶף נֶפֶשׁ אָכָלוּ חֹסֶן וִיקָר יִקָּחוּ אַלְמְנוֹתֶיהָ הִרְבּוּ בְתוֹכָהּ

          • Eliyah Lion says:

            Sharbano said: Mr. Ancient Hebrew speaker how do you translate these
            Numbers 24:9
            כָּרַע שָׁכַב כַּאֲרִי וּכְלָבִיא מִי יְקִימֶנּוּ מְבָרֲכֶיךָ בָרוּךְ וְאֹרֲרֶיךָ אָרוּר:
            Isaiah 38:13
            שִׁוִּיתִי עַד בֹּקֶר כָּאֲרִי כֵּן יְשַׁבֵּר כָּל עַצְמוֹתָי מִיּוֹם עַד לַיְלָה תַּשְׁלִימֵנִי:
            Ezekiel 22:25
            קֶשֶׁר נְבִיאֶיהָ בְּתוֹכָהּ כַּאֲרִי שׁוֹאֵג טֹרֵף טָרֶף נֶפֶשׁ אָכָלוּ חֹסֶן וִיקָר יִקָּחוּ אַלְמְנוֹתֶיהָ הִרְבּוּ בְתוֹכָהּ

            I will translate in the Ruah Emet the deeper meaning for the benefit of those who have ears to listen…

            Numbers 24:9 : כָּרַע שָׁכַב כַּאֲרִי וּכְלָבִיא מִי יְקִימֶנּוּ מְבָרֲכֶיךָ בָרוּךְ וְאֹרֲרֶיךָ אָרוּר

            Note that most translator will translate two times the word lion with two different words employed in the Hebrew אֲרִי and כְלָבִיא

            The NKJV will translate: ‘He bows down, he lies down as a lion; And as a lion, who shall rouse him?’ That translation as many mistake for the lack of proper digging.

            My translation is: ”He knelt he slept they dig and a lion who they will awake than he will bless your blessing and curse your cursing”

            My translation is completely different from all the others: first I do not repeat the word lion twice because two different Hebrew words does not warrant the same meaning. Most translator will do it, a fault for not digging enough for the sacred meaning.

            P.S.: To Yisroel who challenge me to find the verb Karah with an aleph a second time in Tanakh: it is done buried in the mistranslation from scholars lacking a deeper meaning.

            Bless be the holy Tongue and bless those who have ears to hear it in the Ruah!!

          • Eliyahu I guess for you the word “emet” means dead – both in the way you deal with Hebrew grammar and with the way you deal with truth.

          • Dina says:

            Ha, ha, Lion, very funny.

            Now, why did you only translate Numbers 24:9?

            How about the others? Go on, I’m curious to see your translation of Isaiah 38:13.

            And what happened to the impeccable translation of the KJV that you were just praising before for its translation of Psalm 22, that you claimed was supported by all scholars?

            I can’t believe you take yourself seriously.

            By the way, you still need to show us ONE PLACE in the Hebrew Bible and the Talmud that says that the Gentiles are dogs (and even pigs, as you added).

          • Sharbano says:

            Are you really serious here. Your translation is certainly ‘different’ and reads as nonsense. In Hebrew it IS a complete sentence. Yours is nothing but a bunch of words jumbled together. What is “sacred” in YOUR words. Absolutely nothing. Does the “they” dig up the lion and the lion does a blessing.

            Do you REALLY want to be taken seriously. To put it in words YOU understand. You are Ka’ari a hole for yourself.

          • Eliyah Lion says:

            Yisroel and Dina

            Your use of mockery only show how inept you are to debate the issues. By your reactions we judge how puerile you are. If you can not comment the substance of the matter like serious adult than pass your case to more capable, intelligent and articulate people.

            I know that speaking only English, specially for Yisroel, is difficult for him to connect the dots at multiple levels but may be some humility will make him one day suitable to receive the grace of the sons of the Elyon and the real wisdom of Scriptures. But that must happen first if you reforms and purifies your foggy minds by receiving first the holy fire and the holy wind from YHWH my Beloved.

          • Sharbano says:

            Yes, most certainly you have received quite the plenty supply of “holy wind”, and maybe too much, since you are expelling so much.

            We have All countered your arguments and considering You have not it is your lack of debating that is the issue. Tell us, have you Ever used Strong’s in your study.

          • Dina says:

            Hey, Lion, can you translate Isaiah 38:13, or is it simply easier to insult us than to face your error?

            Come on, be a man, take a look at this verse.

          • Eliyahu Perhaps you don’t realize – but your example tells us that the last thing anyone wants is your ruach. Perhaps you want to try to be honest? It’s a good and godly thing. You won’t have to contradict yourself as often as you are doing now.

          • Jim says:

            Lion,

            As I have pointed out, it is perfectly useless to present your argument, whether it be a translation or interpretatin, as coming from the ruah. Since you have not proven that you have a prophetic gift, you can only argue from facts which are observable to all. Otherwise, we have no means to communicate with one another.

            Jim

      • Eliyah Lion says:

        Dina just for you from Proverbs 11:

        ”9 The hypocrite with his mouth destroys his neighbor,
        But through knowledge the righteous will be delivered.”

        ”22 As a ring of gold in a swine’s snout,
        So is a lovely woman who lacks discretion.”

        P.S.: in English swine is a synonym of pig… Capiche!!

        • Jim says:

          Lion,

          Using scripture to insult your opponents is shameful. But let us take note of a couple things. One, you have not produced a passage that indicates that non-Jews are to be called “pigs” and “dogs” by virtue of being non-Jews. Even as you find a verse mentioning swine, you reveal that you cannot produce the verse you promised. Second, let us note that the Proverbs 11.22 does not call all women swine, or any women in fact. It only makes a metaphor. The reason I bring this up is that, if we employ the logic upon which you have relied to call non-Jews “dogs,” then you would have to interpret this verse to mean that all women are swine. Your use of scripture only works against you.

          Jim

        • Sharbano says:

          By quoting v9 JUST for Dina you have inadvertently suggested that Dina has spoken through knowledge against the hypocrite.

        • Dina says:

          Lion, is the reference in Proverbs to Gentiles? I told you that the Torah never calls Gentiles dogs or pigs, and you can’t come up with a single one to prove me wrong. Instead, you find verses that mention the word dog or the word pig regardless of context and then you yell triumphantly “Capiche!”

          The verse in Proverbs is saying something very simple. Just like a ring in a pig’s snout is incongruous, so is indiscretion in a beautiful woman incongruous. The verse is not even calling this type of woman a pig. And there is no reference in this verse to Gentiles, none whatsoever.

          Why do you need to have this pointed out to you? Is your ruach malfunctioning?

    • Eliyah Lion says:

      Con for your info: source: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/dig?s=t

      7.to poke, thrust, or force (usually followed by in or into):
      He dug his heel into the ground.

      verb (used without object), dug or (Archaic) digged, digging.

      1.to break up, turn over, or remove earth, sand, etc., as with a shovel, spade, bulldozer, or claw; make an excavation.
      2.to make one’s way or work by or as by removing or turning over material:
      to dig through the files.

      verb (used with object), dug or (Archaic) digged, digging.

      3.to break up, turn over, or loosen (earth, sand, etc.), as with a shovel, spade, or bulldozer (often followed by up).
      4.to form or excavate (a hole, tunnel, etc.) by removing material.
      5.to unearth, obtain, or remove by digging (often followed by up or out).
      6.to find or discover by effort or search.
      7.to poke, thrust, or force (usually followed by in or into):
      He dug his heel into the ground.

      Do I have to do all the work for you guys??

      • Dina says:

        Lion, since we speak English, we know what “to dig” means. It does not mean “to pierce.” It is also not the definition of “ka’ari,” which you would know if you were fluent in ancient Hebrew.

        Again, for your edification:

        “Ka” is a suffix meaning “like.”
        “Ari” is a noun that means “lion.”

        • Dina says:

          Oops, I mean prefix. Why do I keep doing that? 🙂

        • Sharbano says:

          Maybe you say suffix because of its use in Hebrew in sentence construction.

          It seems to me that he is quite dependent using Strong’s. In looking at Strong’s online they list that word in Psalms 22 as “pierced”, And, not only that they have it only listed Once in the entire Tanach. Doing a search I found three instances where the exact form of that word was used. In those places no translation uses pierced. I was skeptical before but now I’m certain that here proves whether or not a person knows Any Hebrew. To sit there and claim “ancient Hebrew” and rabbis had to go to Xtians for understanding and one needs Ruach to understand Hebrew has given conclusive evidence of their “knowledge”, or lack thereof.

          • Dina says:

            Also note that Lion completely ignored Rabbi B.’s reference to Isaiah 38:13. In this verse, the word “ka’ari” appears, and funnily enough, the KJV correctly translates it to “as a lion.”

            Take that, Lion!

  11. Jim says:

    Lion,

    With the distraction of the translation of ka’ari, we have lost the thread of the conversation. You were telling us that gentiles are considered dogs according to Tanach. This has been shown to be false. Do you admit your error and retract this outrageous claim?

    Jim

    • Eliyah Lion says:

      Jim ask your so-called rabbi to see if he will dare to confirm what the rabbis say about the pagan-goyim! Stop the madness!

      Psalm 22: Here is the Hebrew:

      כִּי סְבָבוּנִי כְּלָבִים עֲדַת מְרֵעִים הִקִּיפוּנִי כָּאֲרִי יָדַי וְרַגְלָי׃ יח אֲסַפֵּר כָּל־עַצְמוֹתָי הֵמָּה יַבִּיטוּ יִרְאוּ־בִי׃

      “When surrounding-me dogs a congregation of many-evildoers compassing-me ‘they-dig’ my-two-hands and my-two-feet : I may relate all-my-dual-substances them they look they see-in…”

      Ohh I see the word dogs… I hope you can read and retract your false accusation. Are scared to ask your so-called rabbi? Seek the truth drop the lies!!

      • Jim says:

        Lion,

        I already showed how you are making an error regarding Psalm 22 here: https://yourphariseefriend.wordpress.com/2015/06/19/representative-idolatry-response-to-david/#comment-19651 . Dina has answered as well.

        Seeing the word “dogs” does not mean that it applies universally to all non-Jews. It is not even clear in Psalm 22 that the “dogs” are non-Jews. They are the enemies of David, whom he describes metaphorically as dogs because of their harm to him. In your other quotes from Tanach, Dina pointed out that the “dogs” being referenced were not non-Jews, and if you had read them before quoting them, you would have seen the same.

        There is nothing shameful in having made an error. All of us are human. We have all made errors. It would be good of you to retract your claim that Tanach refers to non-Jews as “dogs” just because they are not Jewish.

        You urge me to seek the truth. I see it written clearly that humanity was made in the image of God, Jew and non-Jew alike. The Jew is a gift to the non-Jew, keeping alive the light of Torah, bringing knowledge of God the world. The existence of the Jew, as a nation of priests, shows God’s great concern for the non-Jew. Israel is a testament to God’s concern for the non-Jew, that they are not to Him “dogs”.

        I await your retraction.

        Jim

        • Dina says:

          Such optimism, Jim!

          • Jim says:

            Dina,

            I took no offense; do not worry. And considering the nature of these discussions, it is reasonable that at times we will feel cynical.

            Jim

        • Eliyah Lion says:

          Jim your interpretation of psalm 22 presume that the psalm are not prophetic in nature. For you and your sect the words of Eloah are only applied in the past. If you want to limit Eloah’s words you can do it but I will not. For only the closed sectarian minds do…

          For the word “dogs” you failed to ask your so-called rabbi. Let him make a statement in the name of the rabbis present and past if what you say correspond to the Oral Torah…That dogs and pigs are not applied to pagan-people…

          Conclusion either you just speak of ignorance employing tactics that do not work with me or you play the innocent-hypocrite.. Do you think I am here to play games??

          • Sharbano says:

            So, Why ARE you here, if not to play games. That certainly appears to be the case. You should know by Now that nobody believes you.

          • Dina says:

            Hey, Lion, wrong religion. The Koran calls Jews apes and pigs. I think you must be confused. Find me ONE place in the whole Tanach and yes, the whole Talmud, that calls Gentiles dogs. Go on, then.

          • Jim says:

            Eliyah,

            There are two different claims you have made. One is that Tanach calls non-Jews “dogs.” This has been shown to be false. You have a responsibility to retract your statement at this point, not to implicate others. If you cannot do this, I shall try to understand. I know how difficult it is to admit when we have made a mistake. It is particularly difficult when we have insulted an entire people, thinking Tanach gave us license, and then discovering we have made a mistake. I understand that you may feel embarrassed, so if you cannot issue a retraction, I shall attempt to be patient. After all, though you call me a ‘dog,’ it is not your favor I seek.

            The other claim that you make is that the rabbis call non-Jews dogs. This you have also not proven. Shifting the responsibility of your claim to R’ Blumenthal is base and unworthy of you. You can do better than that.

            R’ Blumenthal has not referred to the non-Jew as a dog, as far as I am aware. To my knowledge, he has been a gracious host to us. I have been posting for some time, perhaps even two years, at least longer than one, by quite some time. He has shown me the greatest respect, even using my comments as posts on occasion. Shall I be ungrateful and insult him, because you insist upon it? Shall I be an ungracious guest to my gracious host? I do not think so.

            But let us assume that the Talmud calls all non-Jews “dogs” and “pigs” merely because they are non-Jewish. I think we both know that this is not the case, but let us assume it for the sake of argument. What do you mean by bringing it up? You mean either to indict the rabbis, or you mean to justify your calling non-Jews “dogs”? Which is it?

            I can only think you mean to justify your own ungracious insult. But this is not a fair use of the Talmud, because you do not hold by the Talmud. In fact, your writings betray the utter contempt with which you treat the rabbis. Are you then going to justify yourself by appealing to their standard? You are using a double-standard. When the rabbis do not agree with your faith, you excoriate and insult them. But when you need them, then you trot them out, not even with a quote, but with insinuation.

            You, who have rejected the rabbis’ teachings and claim to be above them, you must not justify your rude behavior, because that is the standard of those you loathe. And do not think that by implying hypocrisy in the observant Jew, like Dina, that you will escape the same indictment. You cannot justify your behavior by pointing to the behavior of those whom you consider to be beneath you.

            But perhaps I am wrong. Perhaps you really wished only to indict the rabbis. Can you tell me then what the Talmud says about the non-Jew that studies those parts of the Torah relevant to him, who keeps the Seven Laws? It says that he may reach a spiritual level higher than the High Priest. What do we see from this? It is as I said before. Torah does not insult the non-Jew, because he is a non-Jew. If it refers to some as “dogs” or “pigs” (and I do not know if it does) it is not because they are non-Jews, but for unrighteous practices and possibly their treatment of the Jewish people. The Talmud is not against non-Jews, however. (My reference to the non-Jew and the High Priest, I take from “The Path of the Righteous Gentile,” which cites the Babylonian Talmud, Baba Kamma 38a.)

            I would hope, however, that you are not trying to sow dissension. I would hope that you are not merely trying to make the rabbis look bad by taking some words out of context. (Actually, you have not done that much. You have only insinuated, which is even uglier.)

            Notice that R’ Blumenthal has turned my comments to you regarding the resurrection into a post. If I were you, I would insinuate that you were too cowardly to address the topic. I would say that you do not dare answer me. Instead, I am certain you will get to it. You may need to sit with it for a day or two. What I wrote may be unsettling. I understand this. You’ll get to it when you can. I am patient.

            In the meantime, I await your retraction, regarding the use of the word “dog” in Tanach–not rabbinic writings! Regardless of the difficulty, I am certain you will see that it is better to admit your mistake and no longer insult the non-Jew, because you thought Tanach did the same. Now that you see that HaShem cares for the non-Jew, I am sure you will retract your statement kindly. And you will find that we are willing to forget your error and forgive the insult, if you are willing to repent.

            I wait.

            Jim

          • Dina says:

            I have an unusual pastime that I enjoy–I like to read children’s novels. (I tell myself that this is educational because I hope to one day write such a novel myself.) I am reading a series called “The Incorrigible Children of Ashton Place,” a charmingly written whimsical account of a governess whose job is to tame three children who were raised by a wolf.

            The governess is very optimistic, too optimistic in fact, and the author coined a word to describe her optimism: optoomuchism.

            I rather think, Jim, you are optoomuchistic. And I rather suspect that your optoomuchism is stuffed into your tongue which is firmly planted in your cheek (sorry for the tortured metaphor).

          • Jim says:

            Dina,

            I think you will find that I have much less of my tongue in my cheek than you think. I do like the word optoomuchistic, however.

            Jim

          • Dina says:

            You are a good man. That was cynical of me to say so.

      • Sharbano says:

        I see you are using the Strong’s AGAIN and no doubt the reason for the garbled Hebrew translation. I say, you know JUST enough Hebrew to be dangerous, as the saying goes. It’s becoming quite comical to see how you strain working with Strong’s.

      • Dina says:

        Lion, do you bother to actually read responses to your challenges? Dogs in this passage refers to David’s enemies. His most dangerous enemies were the people of his own household, Jews. Not Gentiles. This is not a reference to Gentiles as a whole being compared to dogs.

        You see the word “dogs” and you ignore the context. Shameful.

  12. Concerned Reader says:

    Lion you have not given a single reason why Judaism’s views are wrong using sound scriptural reasoning. You cannot quote a verse here and a verse there to prove a doctrine. You cannot prefer an allegorical reading to the plain meaning and say that you are being true to the text.

    You say revelation 13 refers to a false Christ, and not the true one. Fine. Consider very carefully that Jews will never accept a divine messiah period. so, by being faithful to the reading that they follow, they will never fall for your version of a false messiah. THEY WONT ACCEPT ANY .PERSON WHO CLAIMS DIVINITY FOR HIMSELF.

    You talk about me falling for the leaven of pharisees, but without pharisees your religion would not exist. PERIOD!

    • Eliyah Lion says:

      Con you are being mislead. Suffice that you put a man doing signs and wonders and you will see your so-called false Jews kneel before him. The recent proof of that is your beloved Rebbe a false messiah now dead.

      In case you did know, many so-called orthodox Jews followed this guy in his delusion thinking he was divine… Hmm that is what happen when you are in sects… You follow the wrong messiah as the true Messiah warned us:

      23 “At that time if anyone would say to you, ‘behold in this way the Messiah’ or ‘in this way’ you must not believe; 24 they will be elevated namely false-messiahs and false-prophets and offer pompous-pretentious signs and monstrosities, so as to cause to wander, if possible, even the elect. 25 Behold I have told you beforehand. (Matthew chap. 24)

      • Sharbano says:

        Show me what Orthodox Jews viewed the Rebbe as “divine”. They had deep admiration and respect for the man. It wasn’t ONLY Jews that regarded the man highly, but also many Gentiles and people in authority. Everyone who ever met and knew him had words of praise for him. There were occasions where a Jewish Xtian would speak to him and within a couple minutes they were awed by him. Some of them even did T’shuva as a result. Maybe that is why you despise the man so. You wouldn’t make a pimple on that man. He would Never ever use derogatory words as you with “your sect”, that you inject in most every message.

      • Dina says:

        “The recent proof of that is your beloved Rebbe a false messiah now dead.”

        Lion, it would be nice if you actually read what I wrote once in a while. The rabbi of Lubavitch presided over a tiny minority of Orthodox Jews known as Chabad. He was not “my rebbe”; he was certainly not Con’s rebbe, as Con is not even Jewish. The overwhelming majority of Orthodox Jews did not believe he was the messiah even while he was alive. If the fact that someone is dead disqualifies him from the messiahship (as you keep pointing out in reference to the Lubavitcher rabbi), then Jesus is not the Messiah. You damn yourself with your own words once again.

      • Dina says:

        “In case you did know, many so-called orthodox Jews followed this guy in his delusion thinking he was divine.”

        Many Jews? How many? Did you count them up? In fact, there are few kooky individuals who believe that and they were quickly condemned by every corner of Orthodox Jewry, including Chabad. So you’re going to take proof from a crazy person here and there? But the Christians who killed Jews, they weren’t real Christians? When are you going to shed your double standard?

  13. Concerned Reader says:

    Lion, you still have not responded to the plain meaning of Deuteronomy 4:19 19 “And when you look up to the sky and see the sun, the moon and the stars—all the heavenly host—do not be enticed into bowing down to them and worshiping things the Lord your God has apportioned to all the nations under heaven.”

    Consider this commandment very carefully in light of the following Christian commentary on Joshua 5

    https://www.biblegateway.com/resources/commentaries/Matthew-Henry/Josh/Captain-Lords-Host-Appears

    The Captain of the Lord’s HOST appears to Joshua.

    We read not of any appearance of God’s glory to Joshua till now. There appeared to him one as a man to be noticed. This Man was the Son of God, the eternal Word. Joshua gave him Divine honours: he received them, which a created angel would not have done, and he is called Jehovah, chap. 6:2. To Abraham he appeared as a traveller; to Joshua as a man of war. Christ will be to his people what their faith needs. Christ had his sword drawn, which encouraged Joshua to carry on the war with vigour.

    According to Joshua 5, Joshua bows to one he believes to be a man, he does not pray to this being, the captain of hashem’s host. That would flatly contradict G-d’s commandment to Israel in Deuteronomy 4:19.

    You have asked for proof and reason why Jews refuse to worship Jesus. This verse is an amazing reason why. If Christians say that Jesus is the captain of the host, then he cannot be served as G-d.

    • Eliyah Lion says:

      Con first I want to thank you for your serious contribution. You are a man of integrity and may you be bless for it.

      But Joshua (Yahushuo) same name as the Messiah by the way, do worship this Commander for it is written:

      ”14 So He said, “No, but as Commander of the army of YHWH I have now come.”
      And Joshua fell on his face to the earth and worshiped, and said to Him, “What does my Lord say to His servant?”
      15 Then the Commander of the army of YHWH said to Joshua, “Take your sandal off your foot, for the place where you stand is holy.” And Joshua did so.” (Joshua 5)

      The ground is holy why? Answering the question Con will give you the importance of this Commander. To understand more connect this to Daniel and the angel Mikhael…

      20 Then he said, “Do you know why I have come to you? And now I must return to fight with the prince of Persia; and when I have gone forth, indeed the prince of Greece will come. 21 But I will tell you what is noted in the Scripture of Truth. (No one upholds me against these, except Michael your prince). (Daniel 10)

      Prophecy of the End Time

      12 “At that time Michael shall stand up,
      The great prince who stands watch over the sons of your people;
      And there shall be a time of trouble,
      Such as never was since there was a nation,
      Even to that time.
      And at that time your people shall be delivered,
      Every one who is found written in the book.
      2
      And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake,
      Some to everlasting life,
      Some to shame and everlasting contempt.
      3
      Those who are wise shall shine
      Like the brightness of the firmament,
      And those who turn many to righteousness
      Like the stars forever and ever.

  14. Concerned Reader says:

    ”14 So He said, “No, but as Commander of the army of YHWH I have now come.”
    And Joshua fell on his face to the earth and worshiped, and said to Him, “What does my Lord say to His servant?”
    15 Then the Commander of the army of YHWH said to Joshua, “Take your sandal off your foot, for the place where you stand is holy.” And Joshua did so.” (Joshua 5)

    The word translated here as worshipped refers to bowing down in respect. Also, the verse plainly says adoni, (my master,) not (my LORD.) You still didn’t address Deuteronomy 4:19 in light of this figure. If this is the captain of G-d’s host or Michael, or the logos, he is one of the host of G-d, so he can’t be prayed to or served as G-d.

  15. Pingback: Silencing the Prophets – a Response to David | 1000 Verses – a project of Judaism Resources

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